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Dear Ujm,
Rav Aharon says they make allowances to keep the people attached somewhat to Torah. It could be applied to today’s Lakewood as well.
Dear Avira,
The only reason the yesivishe velt is not being tried for institutionalized sin and heresy, is because they themselves spend too much energy on prosecuting random yidden for institutionalized sin and heresy. It’s a pathetic situation. And it says a lot that you miss the irony.
Dear Avira,
Nobody sees the inside of your head. At this point, you might as well be trolling.
Dear Lakewood,
So you don’t have a life and would spend your time looking at obscene pictures. It’s not for me and it’s not for most people. Only the extremely secular or the extremely religious normalize this garbage.
Dear Ujm,
I can’t look it up right now. But isn’t that the one that Rav Moshe forbids perpetuating or initiating a relationship?
Dear Takah,
There are more serious things in the world to worry about. How did you guess?
There are many other reasons one may choose to never marry.
Dear Ujm,
So Rabbis Schwab and Soloveitchik disagree. The struggle they describe is still on going. The Lakewood led resurgence doesn’t change the dynamics. What is your point?
Dear Americin,
The Netziv and Reb Chaim strongly believed in knowing the entire Torah. Volozhin started each mesechta at the begining and continued until the end. They were against the musar movement. They did not advocate halachah like today. They openly displayed friendship to all kinds of yidden that they vehemently disagreed with. And they were much less modern in the nineteenth century.
Dear Lakewhut,
Having read over the whole thread, it seems to me that your only making one real point. The college experience has drastically changed across the USA since the 1950s. It’s foolish of the MO to still tie together Torah and college.
Fair point.
Another weird halachah from ujm.
It is literally anything but a human brain. Do you think you are a robot?
Dear Lakewood,
Or they have a better life than a silly screen can offer them.
Dear Square,
Why are the parents choosing for their child? I know of some great guys whose biggest problem is that they trust their moms way to much with their own life.
Dear Avira,
Let me correct one minor point. A mechallel shabbos is still part of am yisrael. He can be included in a minyan. But if he does it להכעיס than he cannot be counted.
Dear Karl,
“only true Torah frum will survive”
Who is that today? Better, who will that be tomorrow? It’s a small number. Being part of the MO or the YV doesn’t guarantee any level of observance.
“This is like two people on a sinking boat, arguing whether to sail to the shore or to try to close the hole. Try both and see what works.”
Dear Always,
I couldn’t agree with you on this more.
Which begs the question, what do both bring to the table?
Dear Lakewhut,
It is common in MO shuls for people to daven from their phones.
Dear Marxist,
Davening late wasn’t an excuse. It arose among those who were in shul a whole morning (i. e. From well before dawn until noon). The only question was what time was the better time to choose Tefillah over Torah. All the common folk davened early and went to work. These Chassidim would start davening around the same time as the workday. And they davened long and loud for hours.
One big difference is that in MO shuls I am always greeted and given invitations. The more chareidei shuls think that if you found the shul, you can or did find everything else.
I get the sense that decorum in shul, goes by the person not the affiliation or congregation. If the Rabbi teaches the people to have respect, than they will. Or at least thy might. A serial shul-talker will do so even when he finds himself in a shul with nobody to talk to.
I don’t really hang around a city long enough to get a sense of shul-talking. Though bein hazmanim is worse everywhere.
Dear Yserbius,
I’ve been in shuls of all stripes of orthodox across half the country. MO shuls generally daven early and fast. It’s great! Get up, guaranteed service, and a full day still ahead!
“Mishnas Rabi Aharon is in any Shul and Bais Medrash worth its salt.”
Important and popular sefer, but your really stretching it with that one.
Dear Avira,
The problem with sourcing your statements is that you are constantly discussing the intentions or beliefs of others. How could you be so sure, what other people, especially whole communities, really want or think?
PS If you can read minds through the internet, head over to tzaddik/kidnapper threads. There is a guy in Flatbush who is either a major hero or a supervillain. Since it is unanimously agreed that he is not your average joe acting in a totally average manner, we need a mind reader to arbitrate what is clearly a major public issue.
Dear Avira,
It is literally on this page! Twice! How many posts do you miss per thread? No wonder……..
Dear Dr.,
So what do you say your to your chavrusa when she had to reschedule a date?
There isn’t enough time to shmooze by an MO weekday service.
Dear Coffee,
So Chassidim can be compared to the unlearned MO if they would stoop to the level of late-risers. Sounds about right. 😎
A Quick Quote of Amirican Yeshivish’s post above:
Avira
With all due respect, untill 20 years ago the chassiddeshe rabonnim were screaming about mixed swimming in Miami where a big oilam going there where not beig makpid since it wasn’t at home
(Almost like not being makpid on yoshon when not at home)
And it wasn’t just the Bubbys and Zeidys it was the children and eineklach coming to visit Bubby and Zeidy.Some last random thoughts then (hopefully) I’m done with the topic.
One choshuve talmid chacham was aware of this historical fact. He told me that it wasn’t about levity. They didn’t have plumbing. And the river was a way to cool off.
I found some sources from two hundred years ago, about specific hours that the men would stay away from the water sources. But these were all in small shtetlach.
Ujm, maybe they weren’t observant. I don’t know. My point is that they weren’t MO. Maybe what happened was that the observant copied the non-observant.
Avira, the Steipler’s letter is later. It was a major issue then. And not just MO. It took around ten years to get it under control. You see, sometimes breaches in Torah can be contained.
Lakewhut, so MO has a rabbi problem. Mixed swimming is a casualty of that. A yeshivish person who insists on mixed swimming or some other issur will go somewhere without a real leader of a rabbi. Last generation, that was MO. I’m not convinced it will remain that way. Or even if it still is that way.
There are three different chapters here.
First is a hundred years ago. It’s recorded as a given without any fanfare. Maybe these people were really not observant.
Second is after the war. It’s being protested in all (American) circles that included observant families.
Third is these days. It seems to be a major issue by MO but barely anywhere else.
Sources:
Chapter 1. After I came across a photograph in some shtetl titled ‘A hot day by the river which was clearly mixed, I started taking note of it. It can be found in memories from all over. One source I feel comfortable sharing here is All For The Boss. Ruchoma Shain describes the dilemma of not being able to join her friends on their trips to Coney Island.
Chapter 2. Many rabbonim put out letters for their own kehillos about the seriousness of mixed swimming. Not even half of them were MO.
Chapter 3. Mixed swimming is a common lament among and toward the MO. I have no idea. In my whole life, I’ve had very little interaction with MO on their turf. There was a post today that claimed this was a problem by Chassidim up until twenty years ago. And there has been isolated stories all over.
Point being, whatever it is, was, or will be, mixed swimming has no direct correlation to the differences between the MO or the YV. My whole intention is only towards this one line.
Dear Ujm,
I have boyfriends. My sister has girlfriends. What is not tznius about that?
Dear Mentsch,
I read it that your post is not claiming that all older singles are picky.
Dear Ubiquitin,
Exactly! Almost everyone can afford some type of chasuna. If they are willing to realize what a chasuna is all about. And if they refuse that but say, I must have this and that at my wedding; how much more they will be thinking I must have this and that in a life partner. Such people should stay of shidduchim. They need to rethink.
The one I’m seeing.
None of us have to know the gender. Besides, it’s not tznius.
Not quick enough.
Dear Avira,
Your last paragraph is incomprehensible to me.
“MO was born” When?
“haskalah” What does that word connotate to you?
“It’s leaders” Who?
“including” Two presidents of YU. What does that have to do with MO at large?
“Revel” You must mean that he was a talmid of Telshe. But still, he was a man of stubbornly independent thoughts and methods. Not really under any outside influence.
“Belkin” was big on the greek classics. And completely not involved in day to day leadership of anything besides one yeshiva/college.
“Their attitudes” What do these two have in common?
“taken straight from” Because they read their works?
“maskilim” Any specific names?
“believed” Again, boiling down to itty bitty belief. Who knows what anybody really believes? [Besides for you. Asking for a friend.]
Postscript: If MO means the crowd that you grew up with, and the YV is just the yeshiva that gained from and align yourself with, I would agree with you. The fact is that there is much, much, more. And if we were to ask the MO communities that are failing (Just those that cling to observance. Privately face to face.) they would justify their existence on you and others that went on to yeshiva and made it. Where you in YU and are just annoyed about it? Because your not making any point or much sense besides that.
Dear Avira,
The list is not at all exhaustive. The point is that these are all serious endeavors in the modern day. Whereas, our ancestors barely thought of these things.
One Senior Talmid Chacaham that I’m close with had to attend one of two fundraisers. It didn’t work out for him to go on the three day cruise, so he was at the pidyon peter chamor instead. He remarked that on the cruise he would have been involved in Torah non-stop. Whereas he ended up just watching someone else do a mitzvah.
The point is that the yeshiveliet today are much more involved in these things even if, or maybe especially if they know less than the learned of previous generations.
Dear Avira,
On mixed swimming. Nobody here is condoning it at all. You see it as a development of MO. That is not true historically. (And according to Amirican’s post, it wasn’t true currently until this [Mine, not yours.] generation.) The fact is that mixed swimming happened a lot a hundred years ago. It’s in many biographies, recollections, and observer accounts. And they mention it off hand as if it was normal. I can’t tell you why it was normal for them. But it was. Of course, we can assume that all rabbonim were fire and brimstone against it, but there isn’t much talk about it. Maybe the rabbonim weren’t aware. Or it was done in places with little leadership. Or maybe it was much more innocent than what we think of it. I don’t really care. The fact is that it was done before MO became a separate group. And later it was an issue in all circles of NY orthodoxy, and the rabbonim reacted forcefully.
Dear Avira,
I can’t get any clarity out of your posts. It’s hard to project what level of the yeshiva hashkafa you’ve absorbed. The yeshiva is not a very regulated place. All kinds of behaviors and perspectives are tolerated. Any Rosh Yeshiva who is worth his salt is not afraid of a contentious talmid. You seem to think that the yeshiva is like an engineered social experiment. That is far from the truth. So I”ll just post what I take issue with.
1) Mixed swimming is documented in many testimonials. And it comes across like it wasn’t a big deal to anyone.
2) In our day everything all Jewish rituals are being taken seriously. Uman and Meron. Techeiles and black on black. All kinds of kashrus. Eruvin and techumin. Shluach hakan and peter chamor. Everything and anything can be everyone’s business tomorrow. These were fields for the expert or those with the know how. Today, all of us are taking up positions that we know little about.
3) European Jewry endured a lot. I don’t know what you think Haskalah was or wasn’t.
4) There were big debates about how much the poskim have authority over tradition. There were communities that were too traditional. As well as communities that were too transitional.
5) Historically, the ‘Gedolim’ is not the same as having the most influence or the most talmidim.
6) Nowhere was I discussing a new torah ch”v. All these letters show is a call to basic observance. Not a hashkafa or a lifestyle. [I feel like this is where your missing a lot of info. Your making a schism out of what is almost universal.]
7) MO did not grow out of what I know as haskalah. If you thing observance was absolutely amazing before haskalah, am I to believe that the seventeenth century letters denouncing immodesty were made up ex-nihilo?
8) What’s the difference between a Rabbi condoning or throwing up his hands and saying what can I do?
9) If tznius stops at gender seperation in day to day life, than I concede that Chasidim are fully compliant with tznius. Maybe the most since שלשת ימי הגבלה.
Dear Avira,
My point is that your mixing up today’s branches of Orthodox Judaism with a hundred years ago. Mixed swimming was an issue in many parts of Europe. It is hard to discern any country that was free of it. Even by those that were otherwise observant and had great torah leaders. It spread in America just like every other leniency did. As recently as the 1950s this was an issue even by chassidim! Teaching girls gemara came about in Europe from several different sources. Scholastic pursuit is an old discussion. The Modern Orthodox have not contributed much to this discussion besides for the claim that it is more of a necessity in our day. Etc. Etc. It happens to be that there is a relationship between these issues to the and the Modern/Yeshivish/Chassidish divisions of Orthodoxy. But it is a casual one. (מצה מין את מינו). Not an historical one.
Therefore, when you use the teachings of your revered Rebbe to claim the superiority of the YV over MO, your making a mistake. These teachings did not create the difference in the level of strengths between the communities. Rather they are a reaction to those very differences. In sum, the yeshivishe shittos of a hundred years ago could be used in support of MO much more than to oppose it. Like you say, אכשורי דרא.
My proof of it is, that to any insider the YV currently reflects very little of it’s Litvish roots. It is more and more a reflection of taking yiddishkeit very seriously. And with it, it is constantly borrowing and upholding other cultures that are about being very, very. frum in a visible manner…. Which makes MO even less appealing and so on and so on.
If you believe that this is the way of the Torah, than go ahead and work on it’s enactment. I’ll cheer for you with a full heart. But like much of Chassidus and almost every Jewish group, you totally fail when you try saying that this was always a historical truth. It’s simply not true. It does not mean your worldview is wrong. You can say, that now that modernity has given us such stark choices between right and wrong, of course we must fully commit to what is right and not associate with what is wrong. Even though we may forfeit all that worthwhile in the eyes of modern man OOPS! person.
But as soon as you claim this is what the Torah always was, your wrong. Even if you think your Rebbe told you so. It could still be true. Just not historically true.
Dear Ujm,
Was there anytime that you invoked halacha on this site for something that wasn’t your personal viewpoint? There must be several dozen threads that you claimed halacha and did not respond when challenged.
Quick quote from the Rambam: A teaching from a chacham should be examined at length before concluding it is incorrect.
Dear Avira,
Maybe if you weren’t a tzukiguminer you would have a foggy idea of what your talking about. In the remnant of the Litvish world that barely survives in today’s yeshivos, it is a given that there was a Torah Velt before the Gaon.
Dear Always,
DeSantis and Education?!?!?!? Then why not Jean Pierre?
Jew hating has a place on every side of the aisle. If you disagree with that, you have zero political acumen. Please explain the need to bait posters on a Jewish site with this garbage.
Dear Ujm,
Totally agreed. Much like The Netziv (or Rav Chaim Soloveitchik) was the polar antithesis of the yeshiveshe yidden in our day.
Dear Avira,
It’s not a fair question. One of the formative statements of Modern Orthodoxy, was Rav Hirsch’s claim that spiritual success is completely a matter of olam hazah. Your complicating what should be the simple part.
Dear Amirican,
It seems that you are blowing up your case. Being in Brisk without getting into shiur is not relevant to other yeshivos.