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n0mesorahParticipant
Dear Avram,
One thousand percent the void was already there. But the hanhala was told by the technology experts that it is all because of the phone. And they became conditioned to only see the phone issue and not the real issue. It got so bad, that these boys couldn’t ask for help. Some of them even knew that the phone was stopping them from worse things. It was like the biggest mitzva to get the phones out of yeshiva. Even if it killed a whole winter zman and half a dozen bachurim. Thankfully, most of that hanhala is no longer in chinuch.
n0mesorahParticipantTo be honest, I’m not in Lakewood so I am not really up to date. But going on a few years ago it came down to that a mesivta would not increase it’s profile by having a full scholastic curriculum. Some had for diplomas. And some the rosh yeshiva believed in the idea. But the top mesivtas that have the ability to put in a high level program, were faced with very little interest from their own parent body.
When I posted that there is no market for it that was an exaggeration. I was responding to the theory that it was proactively prevented at the top from happening. That is a lie. It was attempted from the very top. And it failed because of lack of interest. As Lakewood grows there is more diversity. And there could be a really solid mesivta with a serious secular education. There always were lower level options that had English Studies.
In sum, none of this violence is because of learning only yeshivos. Unless these boys were sent to solid places instead of easier ones. But I doubt it. Because almost all these boys were struggling to stay in line while still in Middle School.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
That blurb from the Gaon is from the least authenticated of his writings. Your point about influence may be a valid one. But that is not this discussion. The Gaon himself studied all kinds of wisdom. There is no fear of being influenced from the truth. The only question is if the student is ready to handle it. But if he sees the wisdom in say, chemistry, what is the danger of outside influence?
I have a feeling this will be a long discussion. So keep it light. We can always yell later.
March 9, 2023 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2172405n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
If you only have random (especially online) contested interactions with any self-sustaining community, your only going to come across those that are looking for an argument. I’ve glimpsed Chabad from the inside. It’s not radically different than anything else. Disclaimer: I don’t think I have seen too many kinds of communities to begin with.
n0mesorahParticipantOkay Sam, I’ll take a look.
1) Sefer Tehillim probably got it’s form in the times of Chizkeya or Ezra. But you wanted to know when was Assaf.
2) according to our reckoning. Dovid was less than 3000 years ago.
3) Psalm 79 unfortunately is often applicable.
4) The ninth of of was made ‘a day of tears’ 3500 years ago.
5) I have no reaction at all to your silly 911 wordplays.
6) Numbers aren’t really easier on a rotary phone. It was more about memorizing it in those days.
7) There couldn’t be a 111 code to switchboard.
8) You only know of three tragedies that occurred on tisha b’av?!?
9) There is nothing straight about these messages. It looks like missionary material.
And the more I think about it, the more I want to know if your legit.
March 9, 2023 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2172344n0mesorahParticipantDear Ben,
I’m not sure why you care so much what Avira thinks about such an obscure topic.
n0mesorahParticipantWhat an amazing self troll!!!
The OP tried to point out that it does not mean an obligation to go learn חכמת הגוים. Yet, the binary question of is it a permission or an obligation leads to an opposite truth. By admitting that even if it is only a permission it is because the wisdom of it is still factual, than it no longer matters. Since factual wisdom is it’s own obligation. If you see the wisdom in something, that in itself obligates you to follow it. As opposed to ignoring the wisdom and doing some foolish alternative.
In sum, the OP demonstrated the fallacy of believing that one could get through what they are doing (Random example: excelling at deep analytical thought in any random field of study. Ummmm let’s pick one randomly. Say, all the different tosofos in one sugya. Or shagas aryeh. OR even bircas shmuel.) while ignoring the wisdom of what it is and how it works.
March 9, 2023 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2172336n0mesorahParticipantDear Always,
What you are talking about is only a sliver of the national or international leadership. Many (maybe even most) of the big halachic controversies came from an individual with an agenda that kept on pushing until he got acceptance among a large amount of the poskim.
PS Didn’t Rav Soloveitchik write about this? Something like that halacha is not a democratic process, and therefore it has completely different safeguards that get corrupted by a preference for outside influence.
n0mesorahParticipantActually, there is a secular curriculum in a few Lakewood mesivtas. It was never banned or decided. One of the best yeshivos in Lakewood used to have a good English program. They stopped because the parent body didn’t care for it. It’s expensive to hire teachers. If the community isn’t pushing for it, it’s not going to really work. But to be fair, most of the volience is from kids who barely made it to their bar mitzva. A real high school diploma won’t solve anything here.
March 8, 2023 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2171963n0mesorahParticipantNow I’m left wondering who is more irked by the enigma of The Heinteger Zatzal, Avira or Ben?
You both could just move on and worry about him/Him a bit less.
n0mesorahParticipantGreat Job, Beeble!
This should be habitually bumped for the next year.
n0mesorahParticipantIt’s challenging to push for enough nuance to learn new things in an open forum. But it is an open test of the fallacy of many positions on popular topics. for example; The Shidduch Crisis.
Speaking of, you started a thread trying to blame it on Brisk. And you stuck to it even when I called you out. If you want to talk against Brisk, that’s okay. However, to have thought provoking threads, there needs to be more thoughts brought in. If you just get provoked because I disagreed with you, that doesn’t help the content of the CR.
n0mesorahParticipantSophistry is synonymous with magic.
March 8, 2023 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2171962n0mesorahParticipantPlatonic Aristocracy.
I never got upset about your post. The way you sum up Jewish Leadership, especially in regards to the implications of standard practice, is completely untrue. Maybe it’s just that you have a bad way with words. But it’s not at all democratic.
I didn’t mean that Roshei Yeshivos run the velt. They do not even think they are Rebbes. I’m trying to tell you that halachic issues are passed around to those that are competent on the issue, without regard for their popularity. If many Jews decide to follow the opinion of one who doesn’t know anything about the discussion, it does not make his opinion anymore valid than an online comment.
March 8, 2023 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2171961n0mesorahParticipantDear Always,
No contradiction.
One can pasken shailos even if “nobody listens to him” as in the example I gave. The controversy was that he was incorrect. Not that he couldn’t give such a psak.
The fellow I was referring to, is not known personally by almost anyone that asks. Including most people who have his private phone number. [For all they know he beats his wife.] He is an in instant response that is very valuable to many halachic decisions.
n0mesorahParticipantThe point is that it never was banned. Even today.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Gadol,
I don’t have any idea how many do. The problem is that most parents don’t care what level education their boys get.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Avram,
I feel the movement as a whole is misguided. It produces a lot of of very public messaging. The main practical purpose of all their media is avoiding technology. There should be more about what is good discipline. Especially when it comes to using our free time.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Avram,
About bachurim getting into trouble after giving up their phones. Their yeshiva went all in on the no phone holiness. They left some boys with an unfilled void.
n0mesorahParticipant“follow his advice on mussar”
Advice on mussar doesn’t sound right, so I don’t know what you mean.
For any truth seeker, Einstein’s essays are very enlightening. People get annoyed because he wasn’t controversial on these topics. It won’t help those that just want to win debates.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Are,
Please keep anti-Semitic/flat earth fodder off of TYW.
n0mesorahParticipant“he was very open in his denial of Hashem’s mastery over the Universe”
I disagree with this interpretation.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Menachem,
A hirur teshuvah does not a tzaddik make. The gemara is aware that he may call himself a tzaddik gamur. (But see tosafos.)
n0mesorahParticipantDear Common,
So know you know that Einstein believed in the existence of God. And you post was agnostic by asserting that he didn’t.
n0mesorahParticipantHigh school secular studies is still not forbidden in Lakewood. There isn’t a market for it. And I don’t think it’s what this issue is about.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Sam,
That sounds like some missionaries for Messianic Judaism.
March 2, 2023 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170773n0mesorahParticipant“I presume YWN has a hidden list of Torah credentials that they do not allow to offend”
Armchair hypothesis right there.
March 2, 2023 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170772n0mesorahParticipantDear Always,
It’s not one bit democratic. It’s a Platonic Aristocracy.
Someone who is capable of answering shailos may do so even if nobody listens to him. Like, חליצה על ידי שליח. This nistar is a quick thinker who knows certain complex sugyos in his sleep. Certain conflicting topics are ran by him by some very big name poskim.
March 2, 2023 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170771n0mesorahParticipantDear Ben,
Maybe you should consider if your proofs proof anything to a different perspective. All you found is some sources that don’t explicitly contradict the possibility that mashiach will come from the dead.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Some,
No difference. Whatever you consider unknowledgeable assimilated Jews, he would fall into that category.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Common,
Einstein wasn’t agnostic. Your post is.
n0mesorahParticipantTo be more blunt, the police are involved.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Leiby,
The police have limited options. You know that.
March 1, 2023 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm in reply to: Hashgacha of Rabbi Elimelech Zalman Leibowitz #2170451n0mesorahParticipantNot really. The problem is that their standards are unclear. If they were just lenient, it would be used when there is nothing better available.
March 1, 2023 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm in reply to: Does Netilas Neshama on Shabbos Only Apply At the Organism Level? #2170429n0mesorahParticipantI did. The next sentence.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Avram,
I’m having a hard time getting my point across. I know former alcoholics who moved on to a new job in a new field who are excelling at what they do. I know three people who kicked their drug habit and became solid full time learners. I know a few kids who gave up their phones and now spend their days looking for drugs, alcohol, or trouble. . But that is not really my point.
I have come across a whole bunch of people who think it is terribly important for me to get rid of my smartphone without knowing what I do with my time. When I confront them with what do they do all day, their answer boils down to not having a smartphone. They will openly say, a yeshiva bachur who barely learns but doesn’t have a phone, is better than a serious masmid that has the internet in his pocket.
My point is that the anti smartphone movement is misguided.
n0mesorahParticipantmeaning, you’ll save my site data from Google. Nice to see you as well.
March 1, 2023 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170395n0mesorahParticipantDear Ben,
My vote would never coronate any king. It’s a ridiculous sevara. Have you seen it anywhere?
March 1, 2023 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170397n0mesorahParticipantDear Avira,
Not just not looking down. But genuine care and interest.
March 1, 2023 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170398n0mesorahParticipantDear Always,
What do you say about serious global halachic questions that are decided by an unkown talmid chochom sitting in kollel for twenty five years? Just to give you the picture, the people sitting around him do not know that he answers questions from all over the globe. And even his wife and kids are barely aware of it. He is never invited to any asifa and is not asked for brachos. Oh, and nobody ever takes his picture. His suit and hat are older than me.
n0mesorahParticipantNeither. We are going to pretend it was someone else’s fault and wait for them to take responsibility.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Besalel,
That was my point. Except that it would be three generations behind. There is a lot of these elements even in non hassidic circles. Modern thought is rough.
n0mesorahParticipantHa! Nice to see your screenname again.
n0mesorahParticipant1) A few. Especially second seder.
2) Lakewood still has all types and stripes. You just have to look harder to find them.
3) There is some policy. Those who want the policy listen. Nobody cares anyway.
February 28, 2023 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170152n0mesorahParticipant…. of chareidem….
Only the newcomers. Longstanding observant Jews genuinely care about every Yid. It’s in their DNA. Literally, scientifically, mamash a mitzius. You may even come across OTD kids with a long yichus that still have this trait. The chareidi communities have many yidden teaching in less chareidi schools. (Ahem.) Chareidi mohelem charge less (Some do it free.) to give kosher milah to babies in reformed families. There are chareidi programs to daven for fallen IDF soldiers. And chareidem seek out great Torah personalities from across the spectrum. As one MO gadol said, I am running after my congregation. They are running away from the a certain yeshiva’s alumni. And those alumni are running after me.
February 28, 2023 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2170138n0mesorahParticipantDear Always,
Your indirect elections is bogus. There are great gaonim that have major clout by the leading public faces of today’s rabbanus that are virtually unknown to their own home crowd.
If someone is an armchair hypothesist, they run the risk of sometimes being untruthful. But since they have no idea what they are talking about anyway, they may as well be lying all the time. It might just be worth thinking about.
n0mesorahParticipantIt’s over a year since Health last posted..
February 28, 2023 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm in reply to: Some information on our Mesorah you may have never learned #2170136n0mesorahParticipantEven though it’s long, it’s pretty good. It should be cleaned up to be a more accurate reflection of the sources. Another post should be written for the rest of Jewish History. The point is that study is the conduit of tradition.
n0mesorahParticipantWhen advocating against too much screen time, also advocate for better uses of time in general. Otherwise nobody really improves.
n0mesorahParticipantDear Coffee,
I agree. It’s for those that are afraid of strangers and different ways of thinking. It’s very important to a lot of eighteen year-olds to have a solution when they don’t have a fast answer for a fourteen year-old. Some people are still that way when they are thirty five. But I doubt anyone can survive in a yeshiva for twenty years with a shtultzy attitude.
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