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Dear Squirrel,
Not even ten percent of bachurim would check off even half of your list.
Dear Always,
“Hope you too.”
So you don’t really identify as yourself.
Dear Always,
The full time kollel student with a side job is responsible to his kollel above all else. His customers have to be worked into his kollel schedule. Which means that he has to pass on opportunities to grow his career.
Dear Avirah,
I don’t get what your saying. Hashkofas HaTorah does not lend ‘authority’ to gedolei yisroel. Their statements stand on their merit as an individual. In many areas specific gedolim stand out. The yeshivos at large follow their elder R”Y, even if the RSHKBHG disagrees.
On second thought, maybe you mean specifically mean ‘dogma’ and not the general idea of ‘authority’. I hear that. What generally differentiates regular orthodoxies from MO, is their extreme hesitancy around everything dogmatic.
PS On the main topic. Exhibit A Igros Hagrid. Exhibit B Sichos Hagrid.
funny
Dear Yserbius,
We are discussing different things. You are talking about communal direction and power struggles. That is something each community has to adjust to their own needs and circumstances. I am responding to personal attacks on Lubavitchers over matters of personal belief. My position is that this is not a matter of Chabad. Certain types of people do not know how to accept higher authority that isn’t divine. So they combine or confuse the two. Such confounding thought experiments exist in all communities.
Dear Avira,
No google. Just my memory. Did you look up the gemara? It doesn’t mention any chutzpa. I don’t know what you make of the upper realms, but I doubt that there is a need to maintain any decorum. It’s something of an existential condition. It’s nothing to do with the way to act.
A person believes what is in their head. How it looks to you or me, is not of consequence. “It shows that he believes in the power of something besides Hashem” is the bludgeon of Jihadists and Crusaders. Hashem Knows and is not fooled by any shows. The laws of A”Z are clearly spelled out. Beseeching a human, dead or alive; is not addressed.
And to get to the main topic. What is the difference if the body is dead or alive? The neshoma is unchanged, because it is eternal. (At least according to the Kabbalistic Gospel of Chabad. Which is older than Lubavitch itself.) The tzaddik helps you from the depth of his neshoma, so if you can ask him when his body is holding his soul, the same should apply after they seperate. I don’t know your answer on this.
[I see I missed your post about why schism is necessary in Judaism. Not all those schisms were intentional. And nowhere do chazal tell us they were needed. The justification for schism is recorded in other religion’s writings. Our seforim ignore the topic.]
These are two separate issues. Kollel and young couples in Israel. Kollel is a question of means. It can be done a multitude of ways. There is no real way to make ends meet in (Chareidi) Israel. So the conversation has to start with either support or a lot of sacrifice.
Dear Common,
To think the NYPD would lose this case, is the most naive take of all. Qualified immunity is almost always applied.
Dear Yserbius,
I don’t understand why it matters how vocal, powerful, or influential they are. My point is that it’s part of the package of having a religious community. How much traction it gets under it, is just a matter of circumstance.
Dear Common,
I know a group of guys who will take your car for a week, and return it completely clean for no charge!
Dear Square,
Why do you feel like the mainstream media, the UN, the ICC, and commonsaychel, are all biased against you? Similarly, why do you think anybody cares what Chananya Weissman thinks about shidduchim?
Dear Avira,
I don’t understand how he aggrieved Rav Chiya.
Pardon my ignorance on communicating with the dead. What is the deciding factor if it is prayer or not? Why is it different than solicitating from the living?
My only point is that we find a straight petition to the interred. Don’t ask me what it means. I was only challenging your blanket statement.
If I had to chose if it is forbidden or desirable to betten the rebbe, I would choose the former. But it’s not a choice for me, because I have no interest in doing so. If your asking me to definitively prove, I can’t. Too many kabalistic implications for me. Though I admit of the two ongoing arguments on this thread, yours are superior.
Dear Gadol,
I prefer two shorter flights to one longer one.
Dear Ujm,
I understood it to mean only departures are affected.
When, where, and what topic?
Dear Yungerman,
You mean you do not appreciate random posters on the internet telling you that it is all up to Hashem and you should just daven?
Well, I have to honestly tell that this is not found in all the chumashim in the world. Some do not give a siman for the amount of pesukim in each parsha.
I don’t get the question.
See; Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah (1993),
That was an attempt to satirize the communal outlook to what bachurim do today. But seriously, outside of providing food and so on, the bein hazmanim programs have really disappeared.
Personal god or free will does not on it’s own a heretic make. These are debates. Was Crescras guilty of philosophical apostasy?
Metaphysical truths <en>inherent</en> in scripture is an extreme position. Even secular scripture is only bound by time and place, if man assigns himself the position of the all knowing reader.
Dear Yserbius,
Every group has some. These people are just overly effusive of their leaders. But when they feel safe, they move their reverence beyond any mortal boundaries.
Dear Mods,
I’m guessing that most of benToiroh’s posts are going to spam.
High level shiurim for bein hazmanim? This isn’t 2019 anymore. A dvar halachah, some mussar, and a kumzitz, is all a yeshiva bachur should strive for. If he is really talented, he can simultaneously raise money for some cause. What is the purpose of learning biyun today anyways?
Dear Avira,
Okay, I will try to entertain. The gemara clearly reads as the petitioner addressing the interred. Nothing else is mentioned. It’s a spot on quote. Maybe it’s irrelevant to the argument. But I was only responding to the broad claim that there is no such Chazal.
I found your first post, and read your follow up to mine. I don’t see it. What does it mean to ask forgiveness by a grave for something that occurred in the upper realms? How is that not a direct prayer? The way you explain it, what did he do wrong to Reb Chiya (From memory.) by looking at his throne?
And to be blunt, you have never clarified to me why Chabad should be singled out. Every group has some that confuse their leader with The Divine. (As they should.) That is my take on this topic which seems to trouble you endlessly.
I explained myself well. It’s none of my business because I don’t share my innermost thoughts and prayers online. Nor I do I go to any cemeteries or graves. Your turn.
Dear Avira,
I have no idea where got that I have such an idea that most …..
I don’t want to go there, and probably neither do the mods.
But it was not about the Rabbonim that are issuing the gittin.
Okay. Truce. Let’s drop it.
You don’t seem at all familiar with the inner workings of the American Rabbinate. Modern or Traditional. I don’t want to air endless dirty laundry online. Next time check your own backyard before commenting on your neighbor’s driveway.
Dear Avira,
“They are definitely going to have more of it”
You sound so sure of it. The leaders of the YV are not. To put it mildly, they are pulling their hair out.
Dear Ujm,
You misquoted my citation. L’chol hadayos the Rambam was not michaven to your misquotation. yesh omrim that he only codified these ideas for you to cite them as you please. But then my citing any Rambam, is mufrach ma’ekaro.
In plain English, I’m not sure what you are trying to claim.
Dear Avira,
That means the beis din backs the legitimacy of the contract.
Dear Avira,
I don’t care for this argument. Ben’s posts are too tedious for my time. It caught my eye that there is no mention of asking from the deceased so I posted a source. I’m not aware of the implications.
Dear Avira,
I wasn’t talking about a few bad apples. Rather the best of the bunch issuing gittin that are halachically very questionable.
In certain ways, the MO set up is better than the YV when it comes to sticky problems. (Gittin, Kiddushin, Geirus, etc.)
Dear Ujm,
“is obviously going to have far more ..”
It makes all the logical sense that it should be that way. But in reality, it’s equal. Why? I don’t have an opinion. I just rely on whatever the Rambam says on this topic.
PS Even if it was Halachicly permitted to have a girlfriend, it should lead to the same problems. You really destroy your own arguments on this topic.
Dear Yserbius,
Your current credibility rating on Lakewood is abysmal. Maybe the people <en>you know</en> have a hard time getting in to a mesivta with an English program. I know of one that does not have a full enrollment. Even more likely, finding a good enough well rounded mesivta is their problem.
That may help get you back on your soap box, but…………………
Probably not even one of these kids was heading to a decent level mesivta in eighth grade. And it has nothing to do with a lack of secular education. And everything to do with some social dysfunction.
A request made to the tzaddik in the kever himself: Bava Metzia 85b
And much worse goes on Meron, and nobody says boo.
Why is this an endless, big deal to anyone?
Dear Ujm,
That is not what it means. Your posts on these morals are as Torah-less as a kids at risk whatsapp group. Come to think of it, you’re probably on those too!
Dear Coffee,
If their interested in the Torah, it will shift their priorities accordingly. Even as you assume, there is still no clear benefit of attacking Chabad. I have no rational for it other than our own insecurities.
There are about a hundred mesivtos in total. I know of three that have secular studies and five that don’t.
The bigger shtuss is to try to make sense out of all the random shul publications.
Dear Avira,
I learned the hard way that some RCA rabbis learned in BMG.
As the Rambam writes, arayos is a universal problem. Any yeshivishe bochur who knows the hock, wouldn’t throw stones at the MO on this issue. It’s worse by us.
The average of every constituency knows less than the twenty year old BMG bachur. The constituency of every group, includes women, all the kids, the working men, drop outs, and learning disabled. Those still learning full time are highly advanced. Why would anybody post such a statistically insignificant point?
Oh right! The author thinks that only the full time learner is in the yeshiva community. But not his kids, wife, parents, or siblings. That has been my response to you for over a year. I’m still waiting to see how you cope with this.
Dear Avira,
Everything that you post is partisan to you. Just because the RCA enacted something, it doesn’t mean they plan to use the way some of their rabbis do. And they wouldn’t use those rabbis gittin at all. But since everyone is looking because you decided to yell about it, you forced their hand. Basically, your a tool of the extreme left on this issue. The biggest activists who are trying to improve gittin move in complete public silence.
Dear Fake,
I am not endorsing anything, Chas V’shalom that anybody should read my post that way!
My point was that us as the laity should say that gittin are very complex and critical to the concept of a future klal yisrael, and it is better to be an agunah or lose some money than to use an invalid get.
That is the whole focus of what we should be saying. Because even though there could be bad gittin out there, the rabbonim have a round about way of working with each other to resolve these issues.
But now that people are clamoring on the street, it stifles the rabbinc channels, and forces an abrupt end to unresolved gittin. There are gittin out there that the husband never gave in any sense of the word, but the experts can detect these and deal with them. But they cannot deal with hordes of unruly ignorami. Be they MO, YV, or Hasidic.
Dear Avira,
What does Goren have to do with the RCA?
Dear Avira,
No thanks. I have had more theological conversations with more gedolim than probably any kid ever. It’s for the lazy or the simple minded. It’s not something great people enjoy. Whenever my conversations got sticky, I just leaned on Aryeh Kaplan. I have yet to meet a great person who is willing to dispute Kaplan. (Though I know of two great people who openly disagree Kaplan’s opinion. One I will probably never meet. And the other we couldn’t get a discussion going. It was just yes. Why? Because. And if it’s no, than it’s just no.)
Now you seem to have no depth on this issue. The Chovos Halevovos requires serious philosophical study. It means something completely different when it’s superficially referenced. And only the well rounded, super geniuses among the gedolim had any interaction with the haskalah in the last fifty years. Already a hundred years ago, haskalah was barely a factor. You have everything all confused into a big mush. Because you have never seen the weaker elements of the Yeshiva Community. You just write them off as not yeshivsh anymore.
The main point which I think you should agree to, is that a lot of the meshachist stuff is silly. If someone believes that, why bother with them? Let them feel safe in their beliefs so that they would be comfortable to get involved in other topics. Eventually they would wizen up. And if they don’t, then it’s not much of a loss to begin with. But doubling down like you do, just makes them be more defensive. Then they hesitate before learning anything new because maybe it will ruin their belief in the Rebbe. And all their creative intelligence gets wasted in more elaborate defenses.
Dear Ben,
That’s not what I was talking about. In Lubavitch one can be any kind of person the are comfortable. They dress, eat, and entertain themselves how they want. Same with Breslov. There is almost no cultural prishus. They don’t do what they don’t do because they are more authentic about it. Therefore, if they want to say that Moshiach is coming because I saw the footprints of the Baal Shem Tov in the mud behind my house, they will say it. As opposed to more culturally regulated communities, where they would keep their mouths shut.
Dear Yserbius,
“even less options than there were thirty years ago”
Well, this is were you are invoking a blatant, viscous, outright, boldface lie. Do you know what that sentence means? Your making it up. Need another explanation? There is no truth to what I quoted. Still unclear? That is not what was going on thirty years ago compared to today.
The only established mesivta in Lakewood had zero English. Maybe you mean that Lakewood had places for druggies and dropouts back then because it was such a small town and their was enough space for them. Maybe you even went to such a place. Note the use of the word maybe for something that I have no way of knowing. It is a useful method of expression. But that was not an option because nobody from Lakewood sent there. It was a place kids ended up in. Or kids brought up in families that were borderline orthodox, and also dysfunctional.
But in the present day, there are around a hundred high schools of varying levels. Plus, there is sports leagues, chess clubs, and music groups, for young kids. The average family in Lakewood today is proud to have a blue collar teenage son that goes to shul regularly. There are many shiurim specifically for working guys. There was almost none of that thirty years ago. And most of it wasn’t even around ten years ago. Lakewood growth has been in different qualitive types as well as quantity.
You have no idea what your talking about. And I wasn’t even around thirty years ago. I had to go around interviewing older people, to find out just how silly you are.
Dear Lerntmin,
All the gedolim that I know personally, spend their days in one of three fields. 1. Learning or teaching Torah. 2. Communal issues. 3. Helping and being available for people. None of them spend anytime on what is appropriate belief or heretical thought. And none of them care for the nuance of these issues, so your point is totally moot.
Dear Common,
I tried to buy the CR bridge, but I couldn’t get the deal done. Who would sell me the Brooklyn Bridge?
On Herder.
In short Herder added two ideas to religious philosophy.
1) He reimagined Spinoza’s godhead from a noun to a verb.
2) And he insisted that even the holy scriptures should be read as literature.
Neither of these is philosophical apostasy.
And if Spinoza can be tolerated by some religious authorities, surely there are many more that would tolerate Herder.
PS I’m not making any recommendations. My only focus is if one can read future cultural outcomes into the founding philosopher’s thinking. Of course there were historical conclusions from the work of Herder and Marx. Herder definitely would not be pleased by how it played out. Marx even more so.
Dear Mb,
With BMG now giving 1000 a month, five years is attainable. There is also a ‘tuition should not be the reason to leave kollel’ awareness among the mosdos. Besides, if people want to live cheap, they should still be putting money into savings at five years.
Also, Torah does not stop for a Ben Torah when he goes to work.
Gittin intrinsically involve messy situations. And this has unfortunately carried over to many of the halachic aspects of divorce. If you really want to help, you would leave these topics to the experts. Making them into partisan issues, only makes it worse.