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Dear Youdont,
“There are no dozens and dozens of rabbanim who spoke to Rav Moshe regarding eruvin.”
At one point, almost every rav in Brooklyn was asking Rav Moshe if he supported an eruv. Misrepresenting gedolim to the public is not a new problem.
“There aren’t that many rabbanim who know the inyan.”
Uh, okay. But Rav Moshe did write a very clear teshuva that any competent Ben Torah can decipher.
PS I wonder what ‘the inyan’ means to you.
The fact is that dozens and dozens of Rabbanim heard directly from Rav Moshe that an eruv should not be built in Brooklyn.
Dear Youdont,
What is the point of responding to every little nuance in the teshuvos, if we can’t agree on what was Rav Moshe’s core opinion on eruvin? Who cares what type of psak he issued? First we learn ghow he understood rsh”r etc. Then we see how he worked with it through the sugyos. After we can discuss how he dealt with the halachic sources. And then finally we can come to how he encated hos shittah l’masah. Otherwise, it’s just you against whoever wants to give you an audience and it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion.
You have been on this for years and you never once bothered to respond to all the people who know Rav Moshe’s opinion. You only wish to force your thinking onto them by hijacking the Iggros Moshe. Well, I am cut out for that and it seems like I have gotten to you. No hard feelings, but where you the guy who went to a wedding and harassed everybody about the eruv, but then conveniently left when Rav Dovid zt”l unexpectedly showed up?
Dear Return,
I agree to the main point. Not so much your overall view of our history.
Dear Haleivi,
First of all, if it is a fabrication than a lot of The Koran has to be reimagined. It seems to have borrowed many ideas from the Jewish Kingdom of Arabia. If it didn’t exist, than where did those ideas come from? And if it made them all up, how did The Koran gain legitimacy?
But it is mentioned in other Arabic writings from the first millennium. It also mentioned from the Christian point of view in the Greek books of it’s time. And there are now dozens of stone tablets that confirm it’s existence.
There is also some vague mentions of Jews living in these areas in our literature.
Dear You dont,
What is the point of being evasive? Whatever your shittah is, you should own it. And say ‘I don’t know’ or ‘I can’t explain that’.
I will take the liberty of responding directly on your behalf.
1) Rav Moshe wrote something completely new, and we are left wondering if it is a new opinion or an omission from his first letter. Even though he writes that it is all explained at length in his teshuva, we see a new idea in the Flatbush letter of three million.
2) There can not be any teshuva that is about Brooklyn as then Rav Moshe could be accused of issuing a psak din barrur. Rav Moshe in 4:87 writes that he is compelled to respond with his opinion because he writes stuff about his own thinking. These lines are to be ignored.
3) The understanding of the topic is not important. It’s all about what could we get away with in spite of Rav Moshe’s well publicized, thoroughly printed, and until recently, testified by many great chachamim. Anybody who points to Rav Moshe’s opinion, and doesn’t admit that it can be manipulated, must be ignorant.
4) Rav Moshe doesn’t pasken against other rabbanim. (Except for thousands of instances that are convenient to ignore.) And if one follows those rabbanim he can still not be in contradiction to Rav Moshe’s opinion. Even though Rav Moshe told them not to build an eruv. Because what he actually said and thought should not be considered when reading his writings.
Okay, that is what I think you are trying to argue. You don’t get that I am trying to give you a chance to talk. I could crush every one of your mistakes with a dozen responses. But then you come with a bunch more incoherence. Admittedly, this is not a topic I know well. But you are so tripped up, I can’t help myself. You fell into every net I put out. You are completely oblivious to how the eruv battle aligned with the attack on Orthodoxy. You don’t even know ten percent of the eruv story. And whatever you do know that I don’t you do not want to share. This isn’t a machlokes leshem shamayim on your part.
Dear Zaphod,
The concept you pondered is based on Rav Elchonon, not the Rambam.
There are other ways to explain the Rambam.
Still, if he meant linear time travel, then all mitzvos could be pushed off and achieved later.
Dear Common,
First of all, it is called the Coalition for the Homeless of Central Florida.
Second, it is mostly a front for drugs.
Third, one has to be homeless to qualify.
Whatever you yelled at your screen, it stopped from posting it.
Joe Biden is the ultimate strongman! He fell every item aboard Airforce One! None remained upright! It looked like Terach’s idol shop after Avraham laid waste to it. Yes, you read that correctly Biden is the biggest idol of them all.
Dear Youdont,
1) You are still not answering how Rav Moshe can pass it off as his old opinion, if it is being publicized here for the first time.
2) Do you think that the Brooklyn and Manhattan Teshuvos in chelek aleph are not one concept, applying to both?
3) I am not leaving anything out. It doesn’t matter all the other points, if one of us has his opinion completely wrong.
4) You have been on this diyuk from the beginning so I’ll address it. Are you reading ‘psak din barrur’, to mean that Rav Moshe wasn’t clear about this? From the context, it is clear that he is not telling them they are not allowed to follow anyone else. But if he was giving them a psak din barrur, then he is saying they would be wrong to follow other Rabbonim.
Dear Always,
Your feelings are not a factor here. The current economic set up does not accommodate working hard for your money. or even working to satisfy your consumer. Your work replaces ‘X’. It is used by ‘Y’. And gets funded by ‘Z’.
My last post to this thread:
I found a clear Nevuah! This conversation was predicted centuries ago.
וְחָכְמַת סוֹפְרִים תִּסְרַח, וְיִרְאֵי חֵטְא יִמָּאֲסוּ, וְהָאֱמֶת תְּהֵא נֶעְדֶּרֶת. נְעָרִים פְּנֵי זְקֵנִים יַלְבִּינוּ, זְקֵנִים יַעַמְדוּ מִפְּנֵי קְטַנִּים.
What does the word אֱמֶת in connection to a statement, generally mean in the Mishna?
One should care about what things mean and what is correct. Not which side said them, or what was he thinking when he said it.
Let me clarify a bit about influences. People get so afraid of some fellow selling kefirah. Even though most people have zero interest in what s/he is saying, and there are many places to go to find the truth.
Yet, when a sensitive soul is bothered by the more indifferent attitudes around him, nobody thinks how he is being affected. For example, if you have a whole class that doesn’t wash, make berachos, or say birchas hamazon properly, at least one boy will stop keeping shabbos.
This is a problem being among non-Jews even without any hashkafah challenges. You have to know your weaknesses.
Dear Menachem,
This is how present day chareidim, talk about at least half of the rabbonim they know. They think that rabbis are selfish, but those driving nice cars and taking luxury vacations are just smart. Worship of success is very high today.
Please do not start anymore posts about what we do. It interrupts us from patting our own backs.
Dear Arso,
Let me clarify what is a kol korei.
When a Rav takes his stationary and pens his thoughts, that is not a kol korei.
Nor when a Beis Din signs their names to their own paper.
Or even when an organization all signs on a proclamation. (It is a real kol korei. But I wasn’t referring to them. They are badly outnumbered by all the junk.
I am talking about a letter written by an unknown hand, signed by a number of rabbonim that aren’t specifically in any one affiliation.
These kol koreis are worthless.
I have seen them being signed by the rabbonim. And have asked many times if the signee agrees with it’s content. I have gotten a wide range of answers.
If the rabbonim really agreed with the message, they would actively push it to some extent. Which happens all the time. So the proclamation itself, is just an empty ritual.
Their words get around just fine without these signed statements.
Dear Follow,
See the sources.
Dear Always,
If you truly worry about the multitudes being able to financially self sufficient, you would abhor going to college. There is not enough college level jobs for even a quarter of society.
And most of the world’s elite that went through college, have zero kosher dollars.
They went to college to become more successful criminals.
Dear Avira,
You create your own influences. If you are in places that affect you, that is your own fault. Either don’t be able to be affected, or don’t be there.
Dear Youdont,
“In the first teshuvah quantifying how many people would be required to live in this 12 mil by 12 mil area, Rav Moshe stated ” (I’ll continue for you.) ” he had said in person that he doesn’t want to get involved because of all the shittos and sefarim are available, but once there are rumors that Rav Moshe is from the mattirim because of he said he is not getting involved, now he is forced to write this letter ito directly explain his own view of the matter. And it is explained at length in his first teshuva at length in every single detail…..”
And in your own understanding, he concludes the paragraph with a completely new number, with no indication that this any new thinking. And then in the first lines of the next paragraph, he calls it pashut and vadei reshus harrabim.
So, he didn’t have this number at the meeting. He wouldn’t have gotten involved. But now he had to explain his opinion…. But it is not the same opinion as he gave in person. It is something that is unsourced and never heard before.
Is this how you read this?
Dear Always,
I am not afraid of any anti religious professor or culture. At that age one needs to be strong enough to own their values independent of what anyone else thinks.
My fair is that I would spend time on a bunch of business theory that is laughed at in the real world setting it is supposed to apply to.
Dear Youdont,
Do you really mean that Rav Moshe’s opinion evolved immediately after he wrote that every detail is in the first teshuva?
Or that he sat down to write a teshuva about a chiddush that he negates his first teshuva but lied about it?
Dear Yankel,
This was not Menachem. It was me:
I don’t know if this rule applies at all in Torah Debates. Maybe I just can’t figure out what you want. Maybe we have different interests in this discussion.
—–
Your response:
It does apply in torah debates . If there is a Taana , heard and still unanswered .Why is there no answer given ? Probably because THERE IS NO ANSWER available …Me again:
Do you have a source? When the Acharonim try to use the ‘no response as agreement’ in their teshuvos, it almost never ends like that.
I have given you at least a dozen answers that you haven’t responded back too. So I guess you admit to them all. I don’t know how well you follow things, so let me list for you some disagreements that we have. If I concede I will explicitly say so. I have no intention to keep posting the same responses to the same queries.
A) I am not Chabad. Never was. There are no Chassidim in my ancestry since at least the Nineteenth Century.
B) Most people don’t care about theology. When it is printed in some public forum, most people read right past it.
C) Associating ideas (Such as the reebe is moshiach.) with theological notions, is not theology. It is polemics or propaganda. Or it has another meaning. This thinking tool is so crucial to any conversation about the Ikkarim, that I doubt you have any real grasp on them.
D) I think that when one only sees emunah problems by one group of yidden, that it is hate.
E) My understanding is that prophecy is always attainable. The fact that we are lacking in even one prophet giving directives to others, doesn’t have any significance to me.
F) I understand most of The Rebbe’s teachings in a kabbalistic sense. I don’t know what you think about them.
G) I see Lubavitcher teachings as a whole much more traditional then most other groups.
H) Not every word of Torah that is taught is intended to fit with every other word that was ever taught.
And this is were Chabad is getting hit from both sides. When there is an internal rational for something that Chabad is already doing, (Like not sleeping in the sukkah.) then it is seen as an affront to others, Why don’t you realize that it is merely a justification for what they do, and is not intended for others (that do sleep in the sukkah)?
But then when Chabad spreads their core teachings that most groups are oblivious to, then it is “don’t you realize that we are not Chabad”?!?! So then why did you assume that the other stuff applied to you. (Chabad isn’t going around that others should not sleep in the sukkah to bring the geulah.)
And what is even funnier, is that you have a whole bunch of missionaries on this site, for Zionism, Anti Zionism, College Degrees, No Secular Education, Republicans, Democrats, Trump, and nobody tells them these are not important in my crowd. Comes along a Lubavitcher and hints to how moshiach will enlighten the world, and all of a sudden, it’s how dare you bring that up to us! We know that an Anti Zionist, Democrat like Trump with no secular education is what the world really needs!!!!!!!!!!!
It is very funny. But I think the humor is lost on too many of us. Oh well.
I wonder what Daas Yochid would think.
Dear Qwerty,
“.. Nevuah never completely ended.”
From the perspective of Philosophy of Judaism this would have to be assumed to be true or proven false. The debate on this thread seemed to circle around the word ‘completely’ more than the word ‘Nevuah’. I also brought The Chinuch as evidence and nobody was bothered.
“challenge our Mesorah”
You have a mesorah in these matters? Tell me! I would love to hear!
I posted why I have affinity for Chabad. We had some great times and they learn well. And they know how to chill out. Some people can’t even handle a hint of criticism. Chabadtzkers get attacked all the time and mostly just shrug it off.
But the more I see about this quote, it doesn’t seem like Chabad has the same opinion as me regarding Nevuah.
“you each look to….”
Now you have conspiracies about me! This reminds me that you never answered your flip-flop on Chabad’s intent. I stiil don’t know what you are trying to argue.
“.. tear down our traditions.”
No, I am trying to facilitate a discussion on Ikkarei Emunah.
“… insulted Rav Moshe (CH”V)”
Never happened. Go back and read it right.
“… greater esteem than the Rebbe.”
Of course. I am not Chabad. Never was.
“Rav Moshe didn’t argue against Gemaras”
I would assume so. But if we would misinterpret him at our will, then his statements would be in contradiction with many gemaras.
“like you and the Rebbe.”
I don’t know where I come in among these giants. And I don’t know what gemara you think I contradicted. And please tell me why my nature is important to this discussion. We shouldn’t insert my persona or any persona into Ikkarei Emunah.
The Rebbe knew what he was doing. You will find that a good deal of Chassidus and kabbalah seems to be contradicted by many gemaras.
“you think”
You really pretend to be a mind reader. Maybe that is your point in this thread. Tell me which person I’m thinking about and I’ll give you ten dollars.
Dear Yechiel,
One bad option doesn’t force support for a different not great option. I don’t see why that would change if there are seventy bad options.
Dear Yankel,
To answer your there questions.
Mostly no. (Some even more extreme. Many undecided. Different ones rejected the idea.) The reality of what Chabad thought about The Rebbe’s mission before the stroke was varied. [My understanding. Based on others. I wasn’t alive then.] It always was varied how to deal with practical messianism in Lubavitch. There is a underhanded attempt to unify Chabad thought to more specific points, but it is futile. You can convince any other group to accept something unanimously. Chabad has too many independent types.
No or almost none. People have their opinions before they read this stuff. And they take it in according to their prior views.
No way! No kol korei ever accurately conveyed the wishes of the leader.
Dear Always,
Majority of middle class go to college. But the majority of the middle class’s money, does not come from a college education.
Analysis isn’t needed here. A bit of unbiased perspective demonstrates that college does not pay itself anymore. (If it ever did.) Unless hedonism or white collar cartels have a dollar value. For that, college still pays.
Dear Yankel,
All this Chabad Media is not theology. It is trying to relate esoteric concepts to a reality that is not here, but using the current possibilities of meta reality as a bridge.
As a student I have no need for it. Most of Chabad doesn’t either.
I don’t know what group you are in. But tell me, is the kol korei educational there? Or is there a bunch of between the lines or backroom trade offs?
I don’t know why you doubled down on Chabad Media, when I posted that I don’t know them and don’t care for them.
Dear Yankel,
I maintain that Nevuah never completely disappeared. And I did not know The Rebbe’s statement before this thread.
Chabad didn’t invent Jewish Theology. I can’t pinpoint what you are discussing. But one thing I know. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Ikkarei Emunah. I would have that discussion (God and Mods willing.) if it ever comes back.
Dear Arso,
The agenda thing is in the eyes of the inquisitive. Many Modern Orthodox Jews have the same complaint about Lakewood. Chabad is genuine about this. Those that are learned know that there other ways outside Chabad.
I have come to terms with many fervent but thinking young Lubavitchers. If somebody can’t explain why he is not Chabad to them, it means he doesn’t know his own views well enough. That is not a complaint on Chabad. And it is the opposite of an agenda.
Dear Arso,
There is no contradiction in 1. It has been beaten to death on this site for years.
The other point you have been harping on for weeks. I responded to that.
But let’s make this more interesting (At least for me.) Let’s assume you are correct on both points. So what? Chabad has some unique views. Every group does. Otherwise they wouldn’t be their own group.
Dear Youdont,
Maybe you don’t see it, but 600,000 is the only number that is real according to Rav Moshe. For a city, that is the amount that is out and about daily on the streets. That is what he wrote in the first teshuva. He reiterates it in the second teshuva. And he points out that it is the foundational point in the third teshuva.
All the other number are ways to come to 600,000.
And Rav Moshe writes that the other numbers are not to be relied on. Not because of a gezeira. Because those are not real numbers.
Dear Someday,
It’s weird that you don’t understand most of my post, yet go on to attack it at the same time.
Maybe you think if you learned the inyan then nobody has a right to disagree with you.
Let’s simplify.
As far as I can tell, most Chareidim are neither Zionist or Anti Zionist. Is that true?
Dear Qwerty,
You are missing my respect for your opinion. I am allowing you to explain or not as you will. My having a different take doesn’t, diminish your views in the least.
I am confused why you post that you won’t debate a certain viewpoint but keep posting against anyone that doesn’t have your point of view on that very same point.
It seems like a contradiction of values to me.
Dear Yankel,
Quoting the passuk was a joke. Chill out. This is turning even less productive.
Dear Yankel,
So let’s get to some theology! You are only mentioning propaganda and messaging.
A kol korei does not reflect reality. But if you think they do, maybe that is our disagreement.
You think that putting out a message reflects the reality of the mindset behind it.
I think that the message is a reflection of convenience and diversion.
Dear Youdont,
You still refused to explain how Rav Moshe could write that every detail is explained in the first teshuva and then write about a whole new system.
What is the point of arguing? What Rav Moshe held according to himself isn’t good enough for you.
This has to be the most childish Chabad thread yet!
Might as well add to it…
יִ֥תְיַצְּב֨וּ מַלְכֵי־אֶ֗רֶץ וְרוֹזְנִ֥ים נֽוֹסְדוּ־יָ֑חַד עַל־יְ֝הֹוָ֗ה וְעַל־מְשִׁיחֽוֹ׃
So are we agreeing that drugs is an effect of a bigger problem, and not the root cause?
Dear Yankel,
I don ‘t care for any official statements from any group. Kol korei culture is meaningless to me.
I am not Chabad at all. I don’t shun them either. There is a lot of great kosher fun to be had. Like, spending a day with an bunch of frum bochurim who know how to learn and actually learn. Or an all night bull session about deep concepts without canceling each other. Sorry that you are missing out.
Dear Someday,
I didn’t even see your last paragraph when I posted that. We know each other too well…..
Dear Qwerty,
I thought the OP was about is this a constant topic by non Chabad frum Jews.
And the answer is ‘no’.
We don’t really talk about our own Emunah. Only Chabad’s belief’s matter to us. Because we feel guilty that they are able to constantly talk about Hashem.
“2] If the only answer is
moche , moche , moche
and nothing substantial ….. that is also shtikah …….”In Choshen Mishpat, this is absolutely false.
I don’t know if this rule applies at all in Torah Debates. Maybe I just can’t figure out what you want. Maybe we have different interests in this discussion. You can have yours, I’ll keep mine, and they will keep theirs. There is no contradiction if we all have different opinions.
Dear Someday,
The main reason I am not an anti Zionist, is because when there is a chance to improve Torah and Mitzvos in The State, the Chareidi extreme anti Zionists are nowhere to be found. Only the more moderate Chareidim show up.
The second reason is that the anti Zionists keep pushing propaganda about all the problems that Zionism causes. I don’t get it. If you really think that Zionism is a problem according to The Torah, even if it apparently gave us endless blessings we would abhor Zionism. So what does all this history prove? It achieves one thing. It cheapens Jewish Blood.
I will respond point by point. But I hope we agree that it is all besides the point.
Dear Youdont,
Cute post.
I’ll get to it all eventually.
But you really only have to answer one line in Rav Moshe’s teshuva from 1978 he writes that ” “that it is all printed at length in every detail in the first volume of Iggres Moshe.” In the first teshuva, there is no mention of any number for a city besides 600,000. It would be here:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14673&st=&pgnum=239
Clearly, Rav Moshe’s opinion is that counting the city would not change his psak. Is Rav Moshe entitled to that opinion or not?
Dear Someday,
So obviously the problem between the wars wasn’t Zionism, it was assimilation. Maybe there would have been more assimilation without Zionism. Fast forward a hundred years, and that is the more likely truth. [I am not advocating for Zionism as an antidote for assimilation. The only point is that it isn’t a clear anti-Zionism argument.]
The Old Yishuv made plenty of problems without the Zionists.
Rav Yosef Chaim preceded the Zionists by at most, two generations. There was a lot of history before then. It was a hard place for Jews to live.
There are around ten thousand actual casualties of actual wars. There are another ten thousand that were killed in more ‘peaceful’ attacks.
I have never met an anti-Zionist that was truthful. So, what is the point of this thread?
You are both right. There is no need for the ceremony. But as a technicality, the husband would still be obligated in the mitzva of kiddushin, and they would need to recite Sheva Berachos once. Which would demand a seudah. But they are not obligated to take off a week of work.
Dear Qwerty,
What a shame! I was holding out hope for this debate getting into the weeds of the ikkarim. The Chabad debate doesn’t do anything for me. Oh well.
Dear Qwerty,
My position is all over this site. It’s remained consistent. I suspect that most of Chabad’s detractors, are lacking in in the these thought experiments. So they attack Chabad which is generally more advanced in these areas. Much like atheists keep attacking religion. Not because they don’t like religious thought. But because they know, that they don’t know enough to justify it or disprove it.
Your position is confounding me.
You started off trying to disprove the rebbe is alive or moshiach idea.
That isn’t so crucial to anything. You moved on to claiming the rebbe is god to them.
They responded to explain it a bit. You moved on to some Chabad conspiracy.
Then you did a total flip-flop that it some insane mistake Chabad and their Rebbe has fallen into.
Then you moved into the more kabbalistic themes. So far; five.
Now you have settled on that I’m a contrarian and don’t know what I’m talking about.
I don’t know why you see that as something noteworthy. It’s a mainstream opinion around here.
All I have left to say is I hope you feel welcome here. I can’t guarantee that I’ll always be posting, but I do hope you stick around.
Dear Gadol,
WIC items for starters. You could lose your permit if you increase the price.