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Dear Neville,
I assume the same. And I never did the full generational research. So, it could be I’m wrong.
Dear Avira,
The qualification that the poster gave was gaon. Not depth or analytical strength. Gaon means vast knowledge. The Rebbe was unique in his vast knowledge.
There are many living people who heard his Torah. There are also a select few geniuses that studied with him. He astounded everyone. One Gaon Rosh Yeshiva of today told me that his learning level was on par with Rav Shach. Also, the bnei yeshiva of today considered him the biggest lamdan among all the Rebbes. They went to his farbreingin.
Dear Gadol,
It’s not a linear scale.. There are multiple factors.
Dear Neville,
That is all true. But none of them had the clout by either group that Rav Moshe had. If Rav Moshe permitted something than that was good enough for both. And if he didn’t it’s a question on whichever group doesn’t follow his psak. Though there can still be a good answer.
Dear Ujm,
Correct. But there is a much larger percentage that went right rest MO and joined the Barely Orthodox.
It’s all over the kadmonim. Both day to day subjugation and the too often local destructions. Jews were banned from living in most major cities.. They were banned from many professions.. Owning land.. Poland had almost none of that. Hungary had no Jews. Lithuania largely ignored it’s small Jewish population. The peasants in Eastern Europe were treated the same as the Jews. (This led to the popularity of communism among those Jews.)
Confusing all emancipations with leaving the ghetto is a mistake of the online historians.
We did not say the Bracha on Rav Chaim Kanievskuy because of his daily chiyuvim.
I’m not going to be enticed into mentioning living people. But there are plenty.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Chazon Ish are glaring omissions. Rav Chaim Ozer as well. That covers a century of answering the world’s heaviest questions.
The Ramabam includes a lot from Yerushalmi and other sources. It is more comprehensive than either Talmud. My point is that if one cannot achieve a comprehensive outlook on Mishna without both Rashi and Rambam.
Dear Yabia,
The problem is that the majority of midrash is post tannaic. And around half of it is more recent than the talmud. Also, there are several extinct midrashim that survive in later sources.
So the list comes down to tznius in public and shatnes. So everyone should become yeshivish for the clothing. Now that’s a selling point. Remind me again how the Lakewood Rabbanim are doing in their battle with the clothing manufactures.
Come on. Bitul Torah is a universal malady.
Loshon Hara and reading Apikorsus as well.
Just look at us posting here.
Dear Ujm,
Walk into any far left shul or community center and you’ll find a whole bunch of young yiddish speakers. They come from RW families and they were able to leave observance behind but not the kiddush and cholent.
There are many more that stayed right wing because they think MO cholent is not good enough for them.
Dear Avira,
Yes! A big shift from the YV to MO is that people are not asked to fake their Judaism. Nobody in MO is tznius because ‘what will the neighbors think’? BUt in the YV when the neighbors are away……
You can’t say people are more frum because they don’t do things openly that they can’t get away with. The YV may be a more correct way of having a frum community. But it doesn’t automatically make the people more frum.
Dear Avirah,
Taking other Jews to court is a major problem by the yeshivshe and chassidishe yidden. I never knew it was an issue by the MO.
Dear Desperate,
Besides for the ideologies that you mentioned, there is also cultural and practical differences. But the real question is communal. Who is my community. Or yours. (I’m not asking.)
Cheesecakes should last at least a month in the refrigerator.
Dear Rso,
There is more to the European Davidic line than just Rashi. The Rebbe could trace himself through at least five different families. Practically every Jew in Europe descended from Dovid Hamelech a couple of different ways.
I don’t understand your question.
Being Torah and from Hashem are not the same in this instance.
The Gaon’s Torah thoughts are difficult to authenticate. Although they put out good stuff, it’s hard to know what the Gaon actually said.
Your taking this as a general midrashic statement.
Others understood it with regards to the future.
It could also be, that it is about Germany’s past up to that point. Hence, my post.
Do you know where to find the original source?
Dear Avira,
Seriously? You think history is what some single individuals did or didn’t write? Rav Yechezkel Landau is at the beginning of the struggle for emancipation. Why should he write about the bitter past that he is struggling to leave behind? Yet there is still mentions of the terrible plight in some of his writings. But see the Maharil, Terumos Hadeshen, and others, for ShuT that arose from the daily atrocities.
Dear Always,
I’m not debating any policy here. I’m taking issue with you saying that he is not afraid to do things. That is totally false. He is afraid to do anything. The only reason he stayed in Afghanistan was because he was afraid of the fallout. Not that the fallout would be a policy problem. He was too scared to deal with it.
Again. The policy could be justified. Trump’s cowardly disposition cannot.
There was a real chance for conservatives to reclaim the country. Since Trump is a perpetual outsider, he could have circumvented all the political gridlock in Washington. But he was his own worst enemy. He didn’t see anything through. He would start some good policy. And then chicken out. Again and again. Nobody in Congress could touch him politically. Yet, he reacted to their stances again and again. He continually sabotaged himself. And Congress kept on cashing in on these blank check policies. Which we will say for for decades. This system was started in the Recession of 08. And was greatly enhanced by Obama.
It will take a great leader to overcome. Not a coward. Or Biden.
Trump was a tantalizing opportunity. But it had no chance of fixing the problem. Until then, all the policy debates are a form of denial. None of them can work in this system.
It should be noted, that The Federalist Society took full advantage of this and we know have the most conservative supreme court ever.
Ten Commandments as lawn pieces was al over the place when I was in Alabama. From upper class mansions all the way to mobile homes. They can be found up north as well. They just are not so obvious.
The yeshiva today excels in the study of the Classic Rishonim and Acharonim. Gemara? Not so much.
Dear Ari,
I’m not sure why Gaon is the number one criteria for Hashkafa.
It pains of terribly to admit this. The Chabad Rebbe know everything in Torah that the Brisker Rav knew. Gaonic qualifications was his strong point. And is what made it near impossible to contest him when he was still living.
Dear RSo,
I’m not at all Chabad..
The Rebbe was a descendant of King David.
That was easy.
The fact that the Rishonim did not know where to put the mizbeach is not relevant to today.
The question today is if we could know what is the minimum criteria and can we achieve it.
And then there is a whole nother question. Should we do it if we can.
I’m inclined to think that the answer to the second query is a resounding NO.
Bar Kochba did try to rebuild the Bais Hamikdash. How could anybody believe in him without that? There are numerous subtle sources to this. What do you think he was doing in Jerusalem before the Romans came?
Dear Right,
Denying moshiach ch”v or messianic fervor is not by itself a new religion. This is what is completely unique about Chabad. They have this major separating factor. Yet they do not use it to justify any deviant practice (That I know of.) In any other aspect of Torah.
The Lubavitchers that were born well after the Rebbe passed, are even more convinced of supremacy. This is well known. It is interesting to consider the implications.
Dear Avira,
Your German History is completely wrong. Germany was an awful splace for the Jews for over a thousand years. The thirty years of Wilhelm II were the best of the millennium. And he himself was openly anti Semitic. Which the online historians conveniently ignore.
The Goan lived right after centuries of brutal oppression. Do you know of the original source that we can examine to see what the Goan had in mind?
Dear Avram,
That was more or less what I was pointing out.
And there is the cRc Beis Din.
Several such rabbinic boards exists. But they each address one area.
Dear Yabia,
SA is next level. It has it’s own orbit starting with many rishonim to the Tur and Beis Yosef.
But Rashi and Rambam must be included. You can’t have a completion of any of the list without both of them.
Dear Yabia,
The entirety of Midrash can mean many different things.
Perek Shirah?
Yalkut Shimoni?
All the versions of the Tanchuma and Pesikta?
Sefer Yitzirah?
Bahir, Kanah, and Heicholos?
Mesechtos Katanos?
Dear Yabia,
The entirety of Midrash can mean many different things.
Perek Shirah?
Yalkut Shimoni?
All the versions of the Tanchuma and Pesikta?
Sefer Yitzirah?
Bahir, Kanah, and Heicholos?
Mesechtos Katanos?
One who skips the aggados has no concept of where the halachah starts and ends.
He will be an am haoretz who claims to have finished shas.
Taking out Nach is equivalent to reading the Bible in English and thinking yourself an expert on Mikrah.
I’m confused here. Elu v’elu is only a system by halachic disputes. If you and I disagree about kashrus issues, we will have a whole set up on how and when we can eat the others food. And everything is fine. We’ll still daven and learn together. But if you make a change in curriculum or decorum I’m going to be pulled along unless I make a strong stand not to follow your lead. And if you would change the nusach hatefilah, I would have to leave your shul or my descendants would end up davening as you do.
My understanding is, that as long as we see each other as comitted to halachah we would not schism. You agree?
Do you consider the separate orthodox circles to be a schism? I don’t.
Dear Neville,
I’m working on you post. Please be patient I may be way off.
I define schism as an intentional separation across an entire community from a different community.
Conservative is a schism because they are not willing to take a stand for halachah. The halachah itself is not the problem. There some very modern communities that use a lot of technology on Shabbos that is almost universally understood to be prohibited. Even though this causes a lot of us to keep our distance, this is not a schism because we agree on keeping halachah in general. Whereas a Conservative Congregation that even today most of it’s members do not drive on Shabbos, is still out of bounds because we can’t trust them to take a stand.
It is interesting to note, that there is no schism between the Barely Orthodox and The Conservative. That is because the Barely Orthodox don’t know enough Torah to separate from anything. But if you educate them a drop, they usually listen. Whereas, Conservative ‘know’ that if their rabbi didn’t stop them the first time, that means it’s really allowed unless you choose to be a fanatic.
Once the Misnagdim accepted that the Chassidim were not intending to break any halachah, the whole prospect of schism evaporated. There is a whole bunch of halachic disagreements between the two which basically come down to “We don’t care so much about that”. But it’s not a schism because we both realize that we are both not willing to comprise on any bit of the Torah. Much like Sephardim and Ashkenazim.
Dear Avira,
You misunderstood my post. Obviously, schisms are not subject to a personal outlook on the mitzvos. Even completely wrongheaded perspectives like mine. We could fight about what you just posted anyway.
For some reason, major disputes in deyos to not have lasting impact. There is no historical precedent for arguing the same theologies for generations.
Two examples.
1) The Karaites would fight bitterly over some theory they came up with. Only for the next generation to abandon it and fight about something else.
2) the attacks of the Chachmei Luniel on the Rambam did not perpetuate. The ideas of both sides started fusing immediately.I don’t know why this is, but it seems like theology is two delicate to preserve without a community.
What is a violation of heresy? Maybe you mean heresy itself.
It is clear in Hilchos Deyos that not every deviation is minus.
I’m still waiting on how we can ever ascertain who is an apikorus. I can’t read minds.
And I don’t know anything about feminism.
Dear Zaphod,
My resume was mailed. Could I get a rant on the futility of sending unaddressed mail with the portal service?
That shul you keep posting about is so multi faceted.
Two thoughts.
1) Don’t undersell Chabad! They inspire many non Jews to yearn for Moshiach as well.
2) Your title claims that they inspire all Jews. Then you posted that no other Jews yearn like they do. Which sounds like Chabad is failing at their primary task.
Clarification: My post refers to the merits of Yiddish and specifically the coffee room.
Why Halachah is not (In my opinion.) a cause for schism.
You are correct that being patur does not mean it is mutar. My point is that because of the patur-chayev system we know how to deal with these sinners. But when it comes to innovations that are not purely halachic, whether it be mussar, chasidus, or women rabbis, there is no system for it. And the traditional side will have to be separated or else be carried along.
We could argue all kinds of side points here. But first, do you get what I’m trying to say and do you agree or disagree.
This is a loaded topic for this site.
Agreed. And I think the qualifier is fulfilled by the existence of the Office Of The Chief Rabbi. Not that that is a blanket heter. They know what they are doing.
Dear Neville,
To the main point: Saying it is assur allows for a ‘rabbi’ to permit it. Saying we don’t do it, forces the skeptical innovator to consider the consequential shift that they are initiating.
This site is a real throwback. People post what they want, and others respond. A non response is nothing. ‘Not interested’ and ‘not worth my time’ and ‘offline’ all get the same nothing. Almost everywhere else, your post is constantly being measured in views and likes.
Also, many of the modern day social sites, cater to groupthink. Post certain thoughts, and you will get hounded or go viral. I sometimes notice new posters here seeming surprised at a limited response. On twitter or WhatsApp it would be never ending.
The mods are a big reason for this. A lot that does not get through is not because of the actual post, But because they know what the next potential post will be. So long as we have mods at the wheel, the fabric of the site is the same. The changes are partly in that the interface has aged. But mostly in the users.