Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
These long Chabad posts bore me.
I just follow along the anti Chabad for the issues.Are we now insinuating that the Besht reinvented davening?
I could find some earlier sources.
Several of my posts referenced the eiruvin vaadim. This started with Rav Aaron and Rav Moshe and did not have a halachic function.
In pure halacha, Rav Moshe was completely opposed to Rav Aaron’s shitta of RSHH”R. As much as Rav Moshe opposed any of the NYC eiruvin. This that I quoted the debate about Rav Moshe as going back to Rav Aaron, goes back to the Agudas Harrbanim. It’s not what you want to debate.
The many Talmedei Chachamim that sided with Rav Moshe since the 50s is about more than just hilchos eruvin. I know about it from the inside. Most of them would never sign on anything that has bigger leaders already dealing with it. I was not referring to the Kol Korei of R”Y. That had a different purpose. There is also the disputes between Rav Tuvya Goldstein and his peers from the Yeshivos in Europe about what is halacha and what is called knowing the inyan.
This thread isn’t about my complaints. The OP wants to know why he would not face backlash from the YV for a kula in kashrus, but he would for the eiruv. I’ll debate you on the Rav Moshe’s opinion. B ut even if you are prove me wrong, it won’t help him not be shunned for carrying. That is the reality of today even if it’s based on wrong information.
The YV takes the Brooklyn Eiruv personally. I think we agree on that.
I only brought in Conservative Judaism for this part of the debate. If you just want to discuss the halacha or Rav Moshe’s teshuva, it doesn’t matter.
Whatever you know about the Muzayer Rav would interst me. I only know him as the Nephew of the Satmar Rav. If I read your post right, he was the one who sent Rav Moshe the map with incorrect information.
A correction. I never said Rav Moshe used the census.
It really doesn’t matter what the exact population of Brooklyn is. This is critical to Rav Moshe’s teshuva. I intend to get to all of that in another post.
the eiruv I’m referring to is not even known by most of the people who live inside of it. It was constructed within the last ten years. There have been over a dozen eiruvin constructed within it’s perimeter since then. And every single one makes a bracha.
Dear Youdont,
I am getting the sense that you want to only discuss the halachic permissibility of an eiruv in Brooklyn versus other American Cities. Now, this issue is not in a vacuum. The real world influence has been alluded to numerous times. I don’t know how you feel about it.
The Halachos of Eiruvin have three distinct fields of application.
1. The townspeople are supposed to build an eiruv.
2. The specifications to which the eiruv can be built.
3. Carrying in the eiruv.The permissibility of an eiruv is the second field. Comparing cities is the first field. So, we keep missing each other’s points.
I apologize for the animosity. Let me clear up some of our misunderstandings and then I’ll clarify what I can about Rav Moshe’s position.
Dear Avira,
Making a new religion seems to be your strong point. How easy do you think it is to keep Judaism perfectly authentic?
Dear Always,
So clearly form this Mishna Derech Eretz is not Melacha because then we have a contradiction of two00 statements for the same concept.
The definition I gave is the very reverse of Torah. Which means revealed insight and instruction.
This is the problem with chatbots.
The above post has some serious mistakes and nobody thinks to correct it.
Dear Always,
Good point! Still, he should learn it again with being more mindful of it’s implementation. I can’t think of anything outside the Yeshiva that would help one be more mindful. Can you?
Dear Ujm,
The RCA was not happy to keep him. The issue was that he wasn’t the only member who they wished they didn’t have to deal with. Just expelling him would have been declared as implicit approval of everyone else. It is pretty clear where the RCA draws the line on orthodoxy, and they have made enough statements on the issues without singling out names. You are reading into this what you want to be true. It is not the stance of the RCA.
I’m not in denial of the monetary and political influence the more extreme factions holds over the larger organizations. But that is universal. And it takes strong leadership to overcome it. It is not at all a yardstick to measure the personal views of it’s members.
Personally, I prefer the RCA’s approach. Agudah was no more than press release. It didn’t serve any purpose than white washing themselves. The Yated and Cross Currents did nothing constructive either. Stroking your own ego is not the same thing as taking a stand for the Torah.
Dear Ujm,
They dealt with very him well. Without resorting to a two line statement. He is no longer part of the RCA.
What is the purpose of counting all these names? There are hundreds of Living Rabbanim and dozens of Post-War Gaonim that assured the eiruv but weren’t worthy of being named. But every corner shul rav that permitted it, got his name published.
I’m not the type to belittle any rav. And the truth is that eiruvonline is a great resource. But it completely ignores the many problems that come up. How is it okay to have a major eiruv with nobody checking it at all?
Exactly the response that I wanted!
The first rule of the halachic process is that it doesn’t take place in nameless online forums.
We could discuss the halachic process how it works and fails. Never mind. You can’t keep up with me in describing what the halachic process was throughout the centuries and how it is today.
The issue at hand is how well the posters understand eruvin in concept. And how much integrity they have.
<strength>This thread was not about halacha before you started blabbering.</strength>
It was about one poster who wanrs to use the Brooklyn Eiruv without losing his standing in the YV. Even many of the mattirim will say that these eiruvin weren’t built for Bnei Torah to carry. A lot of the discourse of Agudas Harrabonim regarding eiruvin was that it is not worth it to make an eiruv only according to some shittos. If one disagreed with them, then it follows that Bnei Torah would not automatically be carrying just because there is a kosher eiruv.
Well I guess that settles it until Channanya Weissman marries a Lubavitch girl.
Rav Moshe ‘would allow/wouldn’t allow’ is a continuation from Rav Aaron. It’s pretty much agreed that Rav Aaron’s own shittos are not well defined in the public consciousness. One thing is certain, that Eiruvin need to be properly constructed and checked regularly. It’s not okay when nobody in the bungalow colony remembers who is in charge of maintaining the eiruv.
The Original Point on this thread was that the YV should accept their own carrying in the new eiruv. This is irrelevant to what Rav Moshe’s shittah would or wouldn’t be. The OP is promoting an attitude to eiruvin that leads to all kinds of negligence. And it is a direct assault on the Yeshiva in general. These last few pages are a demonstration of that.
Addendum to 2)
Rav Moshe gets 350K by dividing a million into thirds. The math is off by almost seventeen thousand. Do the mattirim deduce that Rav Moshe didn’t know arithmetic, or do they claim he was misled?
Addendum to 1)
Rav Moshe says that the number would be 4 or 5 times 600,000.
So, at two and a half million it is already problematic.
3) Rav Moshe is not sure if mechitzos would help for Brooklyn. It is mefurush in this teshuva. He never mentions that there aren’t mechitzos. In the other Flatbush teshuva it only mentions dalsos and reshus harrabim. So, clearly there was some consensus that mechitzos were not enough.
1) How do you know what Rav Moshe was lead to believe? He quotes a ‘city map’. If you know the map to have been fraudulent, then say so. (And then produce the map. Or something like that.) If your deducing from some inconsistencies, that Rav Moshe was mislead, I’ll explain them to you for the benefit of the audience. Anyone who thinks they can outthink Rav Moshe because they can’t fit all the pieces of his teshuva together, is obviously stupid. If the ‘city map’ was accurate then he wasn’t misled. Rav Dovid Feinstein wrote that his father was told 2.5 million which is on par with census. Rav Moshe starts the Flatbush teshuva with the number 600K in the ‘streets’. What does this mean? (Some of the mattirim say in the streets of the eiruv. It doesn’t read well and Rav Moshe rejects that shitah in a different teshuva.) The inference of the whole teshuva is that Brooklyn is more than 12 mil and that there are ways different ways to measure it. Rav Moshe explains at one point why parts of Manhattan should not be counted in Brooklyn. Rav Moshe also says it wouldn’t need to be every day of the they year. It’s a very vague teshuva in terms of statistics.
One of the mattirim (Boro Park Eiruv) told me that if Rav Moshe would have written it slightly differently he would assur. as if Rav Moshe was writing the teshuva for his benefit only. When you learn a teshuva you are supposed to consider the writer’s opinion and forget your own.
2) Rav Moshe was led to believe that both BP and Flatbush contain a population of over shishim ribo. This is factually incorrect, as the population is less than half.
Source?
Rav Moshe in this teshuva counts from the water up to Flatbush. No mention of Boro Park. Which was then significantly less populated than the waterfront, and only estimates 350K. He then goes on to summarize why this could be considered 600K according to some Rishonim. That pretty much disproves any possibility of demonstrating that Rav Moshe was fed misinformation.
Full disclaimer.
I don’t know eruvin. Knowing eruvin means having learned well every Gemara with Rashi Tosafos and the Rosh. And then retaning near instant recall on every pertinent point. That is the standard I was taught in yeshiva to know a mesechta. I have never seriously learnt the topic, though I have read plenty of Iggros Moshe. It would only be fair to first learn the teshuvos that immediately preceded him to know what standard ideas he was coming from. I could argue what Rav Moshe says. But not what he holds. Which cannot be deduced from his teshuvos alone. And anyone who only throws around one line from two dozen teshuvos, is a fraud.
Such a fraud probably knows that Rav Moshe’s talmidim all say he never published exactly how to measure the 600,000 (Or any number.) for reshus harrabim linyan Shabbos.
That was the regimen of the Old Litvaks. The Yeshivaliet adapted. (In some non halachic ways as well.) I thought this was known.
When Chabad adapts everything goes bust. So they hold on tightly.
Kol hakavod. What’s the problem that Chabad is so tenacious about their minhagim? We could find these follies everywhere. Is it because Chabad minhagim are strange to us?
Dear Always,
In grocery the cost drives the price. These little groceries have dozens of costs that Costco does away with. Any grocery that reports a large net to gross ratio, will be instantly audited.
Dear Avira,
In the old world before electricity and standard time, these things were very different. Your extrapolating from our customs to theirs.
Dear Always,
“Should he take a semester of?”
No. He should stay in yeshiva and be mindful of others. Put back the sefarim he takes out. Clean up his spills. Not interrupt people who are learning. Return a kind word with a smile. Yeshiva is the best place to put what we learn into practice.
The average person starts of learning so that he can continue learning. Most of us slack of before we get to the point that it really transforms us. So we settle for a slight improvement. Our wrongful behavior is very much a part of us before we even learn Aleph Bais.
Dear Always,
Derech Eretz means the way the natural world is viewed throughout time by the human intellect and involvement in worldly affairs.
Dear Always,
That people today are insane enough to think that learning gemara ten hours a day would lend itself to one with bad manners.
I knew it was satire.
Dear Neville,
I don’t know why you assume that the difficulties the acharonim were discussing is the practice of eating chodosh. Perhaps the problem for them was how to understand the sugya correctly. That is what they refer to as a dochek. The pnei yehoshua writes that he understands from the sugya that chodos is a machlokes on shel Torah and we must be machmir.
See his words. Starting with the last paragraph on the page.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14635&st=&pgnum=552My point is that it is a lot of precedent. For that alone, I’m uncomfortable calling it a kulah. It’s a machlokes. And since it’s shel Torah we go after the machmir. But in the sugya itself, it would not be a kula to learn that way. If you think this is to much pretzel logic, I cede the debate without taking back my opinion.
The Rema is reluctant to reconcile practice with theory in this manner. Is that enough to assume that his opinion is that it assur according to the law? I really don’t know how to ascertain that in a non-biased manner. So I don’t know. And, not knowing is a lacking in Limud HaTorah. Not a kula in Hilchos Chodosh.
I’ll easy take this back. But I’m really uncomfortable saying that people are learning more today and are more aware of how shaky it is. It’s a befeirushe gemara in kiddushin! There is no way the yeshivaliet of old missed this. The difference is that post war we have come in contact with the Sephardim and others that do not eat Yoshon. Now that it is an option, Yidden revisited the topic. And it changed.
Dear Neville,
To my knowledge pikuach hamamshala was in place for chalav yisroel Before Rav Moshe’s teshuva. It seems that was understood in his teshuva about the milk of a mechallel shabbos. Which was before the first teshuva about chalav hacompanies.
See the top paragraph on the left column.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=917&st=&pgnum=80Dear Avira,
The Mishna first says Derech Eretz and then says Melacha. So maybe the poster means to say that anyone who has a career has no understanding on the world and projects all kind of weirdness onto learning guys.
Yeah, he probably meant something like that.
I don’t like this second layer at all. It’s all almost on one part (Talmud Bavli) of the original list. And to some extent, it has to be done in the first place. Knowing Yerushalmi without anything else, is not an accomplishment. The truth is, that goes for everything. I can’t learn kol hatorah kula in a vacuum.
Dear Neville,
Almost nothing by itself is objectively a kula or chumra. But when we have two differing statements, there will be a subjective chumra and a subjective kula. If the subjective chumra is revealed to be more than required by the law, then it opens the possibility tht the other statement is not a kula. This is all for me as a simple student. But if a qualified rav states xyz is a kula, then the goal is to ascertain his intention and nothing more. If it is a cohesive work such as the Mishna Berurah than we may put some effort in to understanding what his system of terms is.
Chalav Hacompanies from it’s origins was considered to be chalav yisroel. Rav Moshe’s first teshuvos on the topic seem to be affirming it.
Yoshon/chodosh goes way back and is hard to ascertain. Once the Bach/Rema/Others? were not rejected, it has become precedent. And I would be uncomfortable calling that a kula until it could be demonstrated that the earlier sources were of the opinion to be machmir in such a scenario. This last sentence is very hard to verify what was done. But it is easy to theorize what they held. I don’t rely on such theories.
Call what I do chumros or kulos, I don’t care. I’m not changing what I do based on peer pressure.
I would say I’m the lowest on the low here, but that spot is already taken.
I’m surprised he didn’t comment on these threads.
Dear Always,
It does not come down to a mitzius. The only question is was the process kosher. And do we know that it is so.
And no, such a rov wouldn’t help for many reasons.
Dear Ujm,
The USA did not have any Conservative Jews back then. Only Orthodox and Reform. (Or not affiliated = irreligious.) [Or living on their own = slow assimilation.] JTS and OU were both started as Orthodox. There wasn’t a way to make Orthodox Rabbis until a few decades later. It was like trial and error. They didn’t want to make the future Conservative Movement. (The founders in Europe didn’t want to make the eventual Conservative Movement either.)
Dear Neville,
I cared for some Old Litvaks in a nursing home. All of them except for one, ate before shacharis. One of them had dementia. If he didn’t eat first, he would start davening maariv. (As the halacha is clear not to eat before maariv. I’m not here to criticize anybody on any of this. But what happened to that halacha?)
Dear Smiler,
Gives you the products that you want?!?
Go be a butcher and let’s see if you keep selling only kosher.
Dear Always,
“Monopoly”
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
You don’t understand retail at all!
Dear Reb Eliezer,
I could give you ten solid reasons why bitul doesn’t apply.
But one will suffice to eradicate every possible retort.
If the chometz would have been properly sold before pesach there would be no issur. We don’t ever use bitul after we intentionally created an issur. דבר שיש לו מתירים
To all the posters who think this is about Rav Moshe using the 2.5M for Flatbush and it’s environs:
This is largely because Rav Dovid Feinstein put out such a letter almost twenty years ago. You had fifteen years to correct him. and he was the most approachable person I ever met. (He was aware of your claims. He believed that Brooklyn has the highest population of all the boroughs since he came to America. He cited the exact census data by heart. And they said not to rely on census data.) So, why are you making this into some mystery about Rav Moshe?
It is interesting to note that Rav Moshe starts off the Flatbush teshuva saying that even if Brooklyn does not have 600K and it is not a rshh”r it would still be assur. I’m wondering how you get around that. (If you say, others disagree that’s fine. If you say Rav Moshe didn’t mean it or say it, your a fraud.) Then he goes on to why it’s a rshh”r because of platya. Then he says the city map has close to 3 million living in Brooklyn, so it definitely is a rshh”r. But thanks for finding one line in the teshuva that by itself doesn’t contradict anything you posted.
Maybe you are the type of yeshiva guy who spends the whole zman on one line and thinks he knows everything.
Dear Youdont,
What was your point in joining this thread?
You joined just to tell everyone that Rav Moshe had wrong information?
We heard that story a thousand times and it is not true. And anyways, that has nothing to do with most of the issues here as you yourself have stated.
Before you worry about reading comprehension, know where you stand on all the parts of the issue.
I thought you came here just defend the poskim who were not accepted by their own peers.
It’s been fun!
Come back again.
I can’t guarantee I’ll be here.Maybe leave a post in each forum before you go.
Dear Always,
That Mishna is the clear source that Derech Eretz does not mean sustenance.
So we can infer from that, that one who has just a career and learns Torah does not have Derech Eretz.
Dear Always,
Cute theory. It didn’t convince me an iota.
Dear Ujm,
This comes down to where both the lines of ‘frum’ and ‘chassidish’ is drawn. Instead of debating that, there should be a mathematical formula for this. I just don’t have the data to solve it.
The problem is, is the rate of X getting closer to extreme X- as time goes on and the population of X and X+ grows. X = Chassidish +/- more or less
The assumption is that one can’t be Chassidish while being not Frum. 🤔
Dear Yechiel,
He doesn’t have the gumption to make a decision until it is made for him. Same as Trump. And the humor is about the same. Put Trump on television. Christie on the radio. And a leader in the White House.
Your girlfriend’s living room. Girls shmooze nightly for select hours. Boys occasionally shmooze all night. The rest of the time, they could only hang around. The mixed hangouts allow the girls to be around at all hours. And the boys to hang every night. Nothing better happens in a specific place.
Dear Youdont,
Besides the rav, you also need to have the eiruv. If there is no eiruv, yeshivaliet don’t carry. Even if a rav says there is an eiruv. Now, we should be debating what Eiruvin consists of. But you are too hesitant to get to a place where there is no rav than can just declare there to be an eiruv. Guess what? That is what an online forum is.
Dear Youdont,
Just because I wouldn’t know, it doesn’t mean that every single reader of this site wouldn’t know. So why don’t you post it? And if nobody can understand you poor little thing, why did you come here in the first place?
Dear Youdont,
There is only more rabbonim if you don’t count Reb Tuvyia’s peers from the Lithuanian Yeshivos.
Dear Avira,
How do you think Moshiach will do all that? It requires compliance from everybody!
Dear Neville,
When there are different opinons that are all firmly justified, there is no stam halacha. That is a machlokes. Neither opinion is objectively a kula or a chumra.
Tefillin need to be black.