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How’s this for a mekor for wearing a burqua?
וַיִּרְאֶהָ יְהוּדָה וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לְזוֹנָה כִּי כִסְּתָה פָּנֶיהָ – בראשית לח, טו
סוטה דף י’ עמוד א’ – משום דכסתה פניה חשבה לזונה? א”ר אלעזר, שכסתה פניה בבית חמיה, דא”ר שמואל בר נחמני א”ר יוחנן כל כלה שהיא צנועה בבית חמיה זוכה ויוצאין ממנה מלכים ונביאים
We see that the fact the Tamar covered her face is considered praiseworthy by Chazal.
LU:
With all due respect, I think you’ve exemplified the unconvincing arguments used against burquas. What’s wrong with something being “done publicly”? The same could be said about (depending on the community) tights, tichels, or even full-lentgh sleeves. Should all of those also be opposed?It happens to be true that many of the burqua-wearing women belong to cult-like movements. But that really has nothing to do with whether actually wearing a burqua is good or bad.
Yekke2, how do you link to a specific post? Just copying and pasting the URL seems to no longer work…
LU, +1
On the subject of burquas, I’m always blown away at the vehemence of the anti-burqua movement. To refer to these people as “the Taliban” is now quite commonplace, and I’ve heard some other vicious insults directed their way. Seriously, why do people hate this so much? What could possibly be so offensive about people taking this upon themselves as a chumra in tzniyus?
I have yet to hear a rational argument as to why it would be a problem to wear a burqua, just a lot of “content-free outrage”.
Personally, I’m secure enough in my own Judaism that I’m not perturbed if somebody is doing something “frummer” than I am.
Probably not…
…but thanks for the due respect 😉
Methinks the front-leader in this challenge (not including PBA, who jumped the gun by several years) is yekke2:
Although LB is leading by a mile in sheer numbers of #CRDSYAC posts.
+1
Chas vi’shalom to suggest that one does not have to comply with the clear-cut halacha of sof zman krias shema.
That being said, I will echo the sentiments that Meno expressed: It sounds like the OP of this thread is more of a cat than a housewife, in the famous moshul of the Ponevezher Rav.
We are exhorted not to use the Torah as a קרדם לחפר – we certainly shouldn’t use it as a weapon to bash people as part of a non-li’shaim Shamayim agenda.
ועל זה נאמר:
How can you tell if a politician is lying?
If his lips are moving.Talk is cheap.
?
That’s what I think the reality is.
yekke2:
I definitely don’t see why her minhagim should be the trendsetter.I don’t either see any real reason for a wife’s minhagim to be adopted by her becoming-more-religious husband, but I can understand how that might become the default option.
Some groups have a tendencey to consider anything that (in their minds) symbolises Jewish culture to be holy. This can include anything from shtreimels to IDF uniforms.
Personally, I think their being מניח את העיקר ותופס את התפל
LB:
I was feeling fed up between a lot of things going on in the CR and didn’t want to be a part of it. Regardless I needed space and felt like maybe my frustrations were an indication that it was time to leave.Wow, do I know that feeling. I’ve left this place due to similar reasons before, more than once. But somehow I always end up back here eventually 🙂
mik5:
Much more important than the so-called “prohibition” of not eating gebrots is, for example, to keep yoshon and to be makpid about zmanim (for Mincha and krias Shema).You do realize that these options are in no way mutually exclusive…
Just because X is more important than Y does not mean that Y should be completely disregarded. And I hope you’ll agree that keeping to a minhag that is several hundred years old does have value.
It should be noted that with all due respect to the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Moshe felt that if there is a machlokes between the MB and the Aruch HaShulchan, we should go like the Aruch HaShulchan because he was a rav and the Chofetz Chaim was not a rav. However, the yeshivishe velt is noheg that the MB is the posek acharon.
I’ve been told that the Chazon Ish considered the MB to be the mainstay of Halacha, but this view does seem to be the standard even amongst non-ChazonIshniks.
I davened in a chassidesha shul this morning where they have separate siddurim that they use only on Pessach. I assume that they eat chometz in shul, and perhaps they have Pessach kiddush there as well…
Or maybe somebody donated a whole bunch of siddurim and they had nothing else to do with it.
yekke2:
Many people are under the impression that the firstborns will revert to their original status of Priesthood when the Third Temple is rebuilt. The Brisker Rav zt”l held that this was blasphemous [and contravened the principle of faith that the Torah will never be changed nor will there be another Torah forevermore] and incorrect.Any idea where that Brisker Rav is brought down? Because as you go on to note, the Ohr HaChaim seemed to have accesses to a Medrash that has since been lost that says the Bechorim will join the Leviim when Moshiach comes. (Although not, it seems, the Kohanim in the actual avodah.)
(Full disclosure – I am a bechor, so I have an obvious negius here 🙂
WW3 seems to be getting off to a rather slow start…
Yeah, I noticed she’s been recently missing also… Hope she comes back, CR’s a much nicer place with her around.
All right, I think it’s time to call it quits. For a while there we had an intelligent, if vehement, conversation going. But now we’re just down to nakedly partisan hatred, ridiculous comparisons, vile name-calling, and even what seems to be people calling for the death of their fellow Jews due to political differences. Honestly, I’m saddened to see so much sheer hatred.
Oh, and you’re all of bunch of murderous terrorist Nazis if you disagree with me.
So you think inconveniencing some people is fine, but inconveniencing many people is comparable to terrorism?
The only thing that I can think of responding to such a thing is:
“there is no rational way to deal with these people… this isnt a rational protest over a real issue. This is pure mayhem for the sake of mayhem”And you’re a terrorist, so there.
But SL, while we’re on the subject of non-rational comparisons, as you so politely put it, I’m wondering what your thoughts are about comparing blocking traffic to murdering innocent people, aka terrorism?
mods, I think that volley of pure hate that was reposted was a little much, even for this place… some insults just should not tolerated.
I will also yet again express my amazement how the same people who react (correctly) so viciously to Jews being called Nazis, have no problem with turning around and calling the Jews that they disagree with “terrorists”. I think it says alot about how much they actually care about the language people use, or if it’s all just a sham to browbeat people they hate from the depths of their being. Tthis is sinas chinam at its worst.
SL:
So now we can get to the crux of the actual issue instead of just lobbing insults at each other.Is the means of protest really the issue here? Do people really think that blocking traffic is an absolutely illegitimate and reprehensible form of protest?
If that were true, then they should be saying the same about the protests in Yitzhar as well.
(Also realize, the protests in Yitzhar have even less of a chance of actually being effective in stopping terror attacks than the Peleg protests have of getting the draft rescinded.)
Or is is the complaints about the means of protest a straw man, and what the protest are about is the real issue?
PHOTOS: Yitzhar Residents Take To The Streets Following Fatal Car Ramming Attack
Just curious if ubiq & avi k think that this is also “to provide an outlet and let off some steam”, “time to play in the street and inconvenience others”, etc?
takahmamash:
If the discussion about girls serving in the IDF had been a theoretical one, I would have gotten busy accumulating the names of all the poskim from both Chareidi and DL circles that concurred with the previously quoted psak of the Chazon Ish.But seeing as this discussion is about people in particular, namely your daughters, I will just say that I am happy to hear that you think being in the IDF “was a positive influence on their Avodat Hashem”, and I hope that that indeed was the case, and that they continue to grow in ruchniyus and only make you proud.
ubiq:
it stretches credibility to call the required registration that has been in place for decades a threat in “our spiritual well being”Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the accusation that you made about hypocrisy. They view this as a spiritual threat, rightly or wrongly, and they there believe a certain amount of hishdalus in necessary.
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. About opening millions of threads just to annoy people. Why don’t you go bother somebody else? A big sister, maybe?
(I was in BMG until recently, and no exams were ever instituted. Period. Just didn’t happen. I’ve said this to Avi K in the past when he first started with this false claim, but he just on repeating it like it’s Torah MiSinai.)
when they instituted exams in Lakewood many guys lost their stipends
Another blatantly false canard that you just keep on repeating. You know, it’s really quite irksome to try to argue with somebody who simply does not care what is true and what is false. Your lack of intellectual honesty and/or grip on reality is really getting to me.
Oh no, not you again…
LF:
I happen to agree with you that there is no equivalence between incidentally inconveniencing people and purposefully staging a protest to make a bigger splash by inconveniencing people.But there is also no equivalence between causing traffic and murdering people. For you to hurl around epithets like “sodom” and “terrorists” is ridiculous and reprehensible. We should not be calling our fellow Jews “terrorists” or “Nazis” just because we don’t like what they’re up to. C’mon, you’re better than that.
Avi K:
MW, it is not a chumra. It is a Torah obligation.Repeating a falsehood over and over does not miraculously make it become true. I will refer you yet again to the thread where we discussed this extensively, and came out that R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, the Chazon Ish, and R’ Moshe Feinstein, all psakened that yeshiva bochrim should not join the IDF.
Your denial is simply staggering.
ubiq:
It is hypocritical when a group claims to believe that learning protects them so they dont need to serve (even in a non-military capacity). yet when faced with a “threat” (and it is hard to call having people register a threat) all of a sudden forget about learning, it is time to play in the street and inconvenience othersThe Brisker Rov once asked why it is that on Channukah we fought the Yevanim in a physical battle, while on Purim we fasted and prayed. Why the different approaches? He answered that on Purim we were faced with physical annihilation, so we knew the only solution to that was in Hashem’s hand – we don’t control the world, He does. But on Channukah we faced a spiritual danger, and הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים, so we had to take matters into our own hands and fight a physical battle to save our spiritual well-being.
(A quick caveat – just because I don’t believe the actions of Peleg Yerushalmi are hypocritical does not mean I support them. I follow the opinion of R’ Shteinman, R’ Chaim, and the vast majority of Rabbonim that these protests are only counter-productive, and that everyone should go get a deferment and go back to learning.)
OK, I’ll say it.
Suffice to say that yekke2 would have almost certainly not said “Kol hakavod” to women serving in the IDF, due to the famous psak of the Chazon Ish that having women serve under the command of men (or vice versa) would fall into the category of אביזרהו דגילוי עריות, which is יהרוג ואל יעבור.
zdad:
Please tell us what Posek allows for Genevas Zman for someone unrelated to the protestJust out of curiosity, if I were to name you such a Posek, would you accept his ruling as a valid opinion which people have the right to follow?
I’m also curious if you can bring me a source that shows that there is a specific issur called “Genevas Zman”.
Avi K:
The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a set called “Hilchot Medina”Yeah, in which he paskened that people should not leave yeshiva to go to the IDF. As was the opinion of R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, and R’ Moshe Feinstein, to name a few.
Also see:
AviK:
Does a soldier who is makpid on a mehadrin hechsher have the right to insist that his comrades also be makpidNo, but he does have a right to insist that he be served food with an appropriate hechsher.
Slightly different question:
Does a soldier who is makpid to go to the army have any right to try to force his chumrah upon others?yekke2:
The Brisker Rav famously said that the Zionists are חשוד על רציחהTrue. And it’s always been a theory of mine that he took this position due to the DeHaan assassination. But still, it’s a big chiddush to say that we have to suspect every Israeli policeman is out to kill us. Perhaps this is li’shitasso that due to pikuach nefesh concerns we shouldn’t fast on fast days, a position not held by any of the other Poskim.
Avi K:
it is a Torah obligation to join the IDFIt never ceases to amaze me how you can just keep repeating thoroughly debunked claims.
Israel is not a theocracy and never claimed to be bound by halacha.
LOL, so if I never claim to be law-abiding citizen, am I not bound by the law?
There is no opt-in or opt-out on God’s Laws. Everyone must keep them, regardless of what they “claim”.
Yekke2:
The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether: (A) Should you be expressing your love, or should your reactions be stronger to the point of anger, and suppress the love you feel towards your son; (B) Are you supposed to be feeling the love at all; if we would consider him a Rasha, may you love your son who is a Rasha.
I know this sounds very cold and unfeeling, and I’m sure most parents here will say that this post can only be written by someone who has never been a parent, but I’m wondering what the Torah position is when we think about it rationally, leaving our emotions aside.
As I attempted to explain in my previous post, I believe that there is a difference in how we are supposed to treat a מומר לתיאבון and a מומר להכעיס. I think the Haggadah is referring to a מומר להכעיס, who is out to scorn and attack Yiddishkeit. Him we must respond sharply to, so as to blunt the influence that he may have on others. But I don’t think this applies to a מומר לתיאבון. To him we should make it clear that while we do not support or condone his actions, we do love him dearly, and therefore we hope that he returns to the lifestyle that we believe is truly best for him.
yes-its-me:
we have yet to find a functional OTD kidI happen to know several myself.
Sure, there are plenty of kids who go OTD due to some abuse/trauma/issues. But plenty also go off just because the outside world is more enticing. I personally know more than one.
Yekke2:
you may not talk against a Godol ever.
The דין of a מכחיש מגידיה is מורידין ולא מעלין. Be careful.Agreed. But I will point out that is a difference between claiming to be of the standing to decide a machlokes between the Gedolim, and deciding what one should do li’maaseh. For example, it would be absolutely ludicrous for me to say that I think R’ Shteinman and R’ Chaim are right and R’ Shmuel is wrong – I do not reach the toes of these giants to be able to be יורד לסוף דעתם, forget about being able to definitively rule who is correct.
However, if I was living in Israel, I would have to decide between two very different options:
1) report to the draft office, receive a deferment, and go back to learning; or
2) go protest in the streets.Just out of curiosity, how would you go about making that decision?
(Admittedly, this is more of a response to the sentiments that you and others expressed in the previous, now closed thread on this subject than to anything you have said here.)
It is sometimes hard to separate honest objections to new developments in any community from objections based on the expectation that some locally (or nationally, or universally) unpopular ethnic group will occupy the development
From a recent article in Rockland County Times:
The hearing that will ultimately determine whether Spring Valley Mayor Demeza Delhomme will be removed from office has started in Westchester County Supreme Court.
In opening statements before Special Referee John P. Clarke, the attorney for Petitioners Ken Del Vecchio, Esq. laid out a claim of five separate acts of malfeasance that warrant the drastic remedy of removing Mayor Delhomme from office due to public malfeasance.
According to Mr. Del Vecchio, petitioners will show to the court that Mayor Delhomme abused his office by unlawfully purchasing a 2014 motor vehicle without board approval, using the same village owned vehicle to travel to his vacation home in North Carolina on four separate occasions, all while using village owned credit cards and EZ-pass for the travels to North Carolina.
Additionally, it is claimed that Mayor Delhomme engaged in a practices of religious discrimination against the Hasidic community in Spring Valley as retaliation against Trustee Asher Grossman forming an alliance on the Village Board with the Mayor’s opponents, entered into unlawful contracts with vendors of the village and abused his power to fire or suspend village employees and officials including Building Inspector Walter Booker
LB:
Check out MyZmanim. You can get all the zmanim online or by text, based on your zipcode.
I always envisioned the rasha of the Haggadah as somebody who is li’hachis, out to attack and mock the yiddishkeit that they have rejected. For somebody in that frame of mind, no kiruv will help. As the Brisker Rav famously said, one can only respond with answers to a question, but you can’t answer an answer/justification.
It should also be noted that the Haggadah specifically says to knock out the rasha’s teeth, which is taken to mean his ability to spread his poisonous attitude to others. We don’t issue a sharp retort at the rasha to punish him, but to dissuade the other children from following down his poisonous path.
I’ve seen the minhag brought down by the Chidah on Shulchan Oruch.