Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Mod-80 – Very well said, couldn’t agree more.
“do you think it is the right thing to let your kids eat ou-d when their little and then make them stop when they turn bar or bas mitzvah?”
It may not be the smartest thing to do, but I don’t think its a matter of right or wrong.
______________________________________________________
Mod-80 – “like many do, i would keep it just for the Yomim N’
a number of years ago i took it on just for the ten days
and kept it up. i feel cleaner (maybe just my imagination)”
Maybe it was just lack of fat/chemicals 🙂
Feif Un – “I was told by someone from Kehillah Kashrus in Brooklyn, that on powdered milk there is no need to get cholov Yisrael. He specifically mentioned Entenmann’s, because their products are made with powdered milk. His exact words were, “I’d have their products in my house if only they weren’t so fattening!”
Yes, there shitos that say that the original geziarah was only on milk in its liquid form, not when it’s powdered. However, not everybody agrees so as always, ask your LOR.
PY – “As far as the gemaras go, one can say they are not meant literally, but are meshalim for some deeper concepts.”
I believe that is the shitah of the Rambam.
says who – “I do it bacause this is what my father and his father….. did. Even if it’s hard.”
Kudos to you. It’s dedication to mesorah like that which kept our nation alive through the ages.
oomis1105 – “I specified that R’ Gershom made a TAKANAH (takana=halacha and is not just an opinion), so I did not make light of it as you implied.”
I quote (emphasis mine): “many people issued their OPINIONS… the takanah of Rabbeinu Gershom re: marriage to no more than one wife at a time, comes to mind”
“Other Rabbanim state their personal, no-halachic opinions… and some of us seem to take those opinions as Torah m’Sinai, when it is not.”
First of all, Pirkei Avos is most definitely Torah m’Sinai, as HaLeiVi pointed out. No two ways about it.
Secondly, just because something is not a chiyuv does not mean it is not part of the Torah. There are two levels to Torah observance: the mandatory, and the optional. The optional parts of the Torah are there for the people who want to go the extra mile in fulfilling the ratzon Hashem, and want to be as close to Hashem as possible. These are the people who go lifnim min ha’shuras ha’din, follow Pirkei Avos, and are constantly working on themselves. These people are called chasidim, those who go above and beyond the letter of the law (not to be confused with the relatively modern chassidish movement, which borrowed the term).
Chumros, by the way, are also included in the “optional” part of the Torah. True chasidim never take a chance of not fulfilling a mitzva or of being oveir an aveira, so they make sure to do it according to all shitos.
yitayningwut – “Since when does the purpose of one mitzva have to be another?”
Who said marriage itself is a mitzva?
Mod-80 – “well yes you thought that, but thats only because you base your reasoning on Torah concepts”
Guilty as charged, and proud of it.
AZ – “there are very real solutions on the table how to add chairs or diminish the participants.”
I don’t see how adding chairs is possible, and what would be the point of “decreasing the number of participants”? The girls who wouldn’t be allowed into the game would be the ones stuck without chairs.
apushatayid – “Regarding boys wearing shorts. Is there anyone who is offended by it? Is there anyone who holds it is an absolute issur? Is it age dependent? If yes, what is that age?”
I don’t think it is so much a halachic problem as it is that some people feel it is inappropriate for a mature ben Torah to wear shorts. After all, the reasoning goes, you don’t see chashuva Rabbonim (or even li’havdil chushva goyim) going around in shorts, do you?
oomis1105 & fabie – Finding your soulmate is very nice, but I cannot think what the mitzva in that may be. Piru u’rivu, however, is chiyuv mi’dioraysah, and therefore I believe it is the primary purpose of marriage.
rebbitzen – “i didnt know that there was a time limit to talking to one’s wife at all.”
According to all the mephurshim I’ve seen, al tarbah does not institute a limit for the amount of talking between spouses, it advises against certain types of speech which are unnecessary and harmful (Avram in MD beautifully explained how the Mishna might be referring to small talk, and I have seen others who say it is referring to loshon hara and demeaning speech).
__________________________________________________
aries2756 – “If you are looking to cause problems for couples in their marriage, please go ahead and start talking about issurim such as men not permitted to speak to their wives. There are so many Shalom Bayis symposiums, Rebbeim, therapists trying to help couples to get along and have happy and fulfilling marriages that prove that these type of discussion can be very harmful to the k’lal. Seriously, this is one of the reasons the other thread was started about chumras!”
If something is prescribed by the Torah, you can bet you bottom dollar that following it will not harm you in any way. Of course, this is only if you do what the Torah truly meant, not what some erroneously think it means, and thats why the Rabbonim explain to us just what it is that the Torah truly means. However, if you follow them you can be sure nothing bad will happen because of it.
_____________________________________________________
oomis1105 – “And many people issued their opinions because they had miserable marriages (the takanah of Rabbeinu Gershom re: marriage to no more than one wife at a time, comes to mind).”
First of all, the cheiram Rabbeinu Gershom is not an “opinion”, it is an issur. Secondly, I was told that the reason behind cheiram Rabbeinu Gershom was that the christians did not allow their clergy to marry at all and therefore RG decided it was a chillul Hashem that the jews looked so occupied with physicality while the goyim were being so ascetic. I have never heard a of a source that says RG had a “miserable marriage”.
I know this is a little late, but to aries2756 – “I was just at 2 wedding in E”Y and was absolutely shocked that there was no consideration or derech eretz and these young girls just pushed and shoved with even an excuse me or “slicha”. It was ridiculous bordering on obnoxious.”
I used to have an Israeli classmate, and he used to do the same thing. Eventually somebody explained to me that it’s a cultural difference; in EY, pushing somebody out of the way is the american equivalent of an “excuse me”.
Mod-80 – Thanks, and well said yourself!
SDHN – Thanks!
_______________________________________________
dunno – “Mod 80: The question boils down to what exten you will put up gedarim. Most people I know have no problem walking past a McDonalds even though you can smell their food. The opposite is here where lots of people think mixed seating is wrong.”
Thats because you only need to stay away from temptations (as Modd-80 said), and most people you know probably little to no tayveh to eat McDonalds. But if they did, then yes they should stay away from it.
_______________________________________________
oomis1105 – “in those times when men and women were separated most of the time, it WAS potentially enticing for them to be in yichud together, and they could not be trusted.”
I was always under the impression that just the opposite: if the great people of then had to be so careful, how much more so do we now after so much yiridas hadoros have to be super careful!
“Maybe we should not let people buy food in the supermarket, eiother. they might eat fleishigs and milchigs together. That cheeseburger smelled mighty tempting.”
As I explained earlier in this comment to dunno, the amount of precautions one must take about an aveira depends on how great your tayvah for it is. And seeing as nobody I know has a yetzer hara for treif that is anything close to a yetzer hara for arayos, I don’t believe these cases are comparable.
_____________________________________________________
Dovv – Very well said, I couldn’t agree more!
yitayningwut – I don’t know, I can’t think of any other mitzva that could be applicable here besides piru u’rivu. Like GAW said, I think marriage could still be a hechshar mitzva even if there is another way to be mekayaim that mitzva.
Machal Man – Very intresting. I’ve never heard that before, but it does make alot of sense.
oomis1105 – “some of you have such little faith in our frum kids… We do not presume people will sin every chance they get.”
According to you, why did the Rabbonim make the issurim of yichud, negiah, etc? Why didn’t they “have faith” in the people?
We see that when dealing with the yetzer hara, this is not the correct approach. As has previously been mentioned, the Gemora says “ain apitropis l’arayos”(“there is no gaurdin for arayos”): when it comes to this particular yetzer hara, nobody can claim to be totally immune. Again, most people will undoubtedly stay clean, but some people are almost definitely going to end up doing aveiros. And as tomim tihye and says who mentioned, many people will definitely fall to the “lighter” aveiros like hirhurim, staring, etc, and that alone is more than enough reason not to mix genders.
“And by the way, in my circles it would be very hard to NOT know if one’s kids were misbehaving. When kids start sneaking around (and in homes where they are brought up to be open and are trusted) ANY parent can immediately tell when something is off with a child. I don;t know how old you are, or if you have kids, but whenever one of mine was up to something (when a child, of course) I immediately knew it. There is just a difference in that child,a look. Something. It cannot be hidden, when there is a normal relationship between parent and child.”
I simply cannot believe that you can even think that a secret “cannot be hidden” from a child/young adults parents. The stories I can tell you…
“whenever one of mine was up to something… I immediately knew it”
By definition, you do not know what you do not know. Therefore, you cannot possibly say that you know everything your children did, because if they did manage to hide something (or several somethings), you wouldn’t know it!
Pashuteh Yid: Based on the Gemoros that deal with sheidim, I always assumed that sheidim are clearly visible, and tend to attack physically (like an animal).
Pashuteh Yid – “Finally, I believe that the RBSH rules the world, period. I do not understand what role could be played by sheidim, for example. If ploni is righteous, then Hashem will treat him well. If not, then he may get in trouble CV. However, how will his plight be affected by a sheid for good or for bad?”
Very simple – the Sheidim would be an instrument of punishment in the hands of Hashem, just like health/parnasseh problems and every other type of misfortune are.
_______________________________________
Sister Bear – “But there must be something about Segulos, if they’re brought down by different Gedolim.”
Segulos are real, as Mod-80 explained. However, that may only be the case if one has the right intentions, which is probably rarely the case these days. And either way, segulos were meant to support tefillah, teshuva, and tzdakah, not to replace them.
oomis1105 – “The bottom line in married women covering their hair by any means, is to know why the hair must be covered> If it is to make them less attractive, then pretty wigs SHOULD be assur. If, the rationale is just in order to remind women that they are married, then it makes no difference WHAT they use to cover it or even how attractive that covering is.”
If the reason women cover their hair was to remind themselves that they are married, wouldn’t they have to cover their always, not just in the presence of men that they’re not related to (as I believe is the case)?
“If Hashem did not say to Moshe Rabbeinu to tell women to cover their hair “so that they will be less attractive to men other than their own husbands,” then this entire conversation seems moot.”
No, the Rabbonim have the right and the ability to figure out why Hashem said what He did, and then to apply that principle to other cases as well. This is how the Rabbonim have figured out what the halacha should be for thousands of years, ever since Hashem stopped talking straight to the Navim.
oomis1105 – Yes, mixing boys and girls would result in more familiarity with how to communicate between genders, and that would make dating easier. However, many of us feel that it is not worth the aveiros that will undoubtedly occur.
___________________________________________
charliehall –
“”What is the significance of something written in Shulchan Aruch?”
That itself is worthy of a thread; there are cases where we don’t follow what is written in the S”A (or, for Ashkenazim, the Rema’s glosses). The methodology regarding how we pick and choose has never been adequately explained.”
That is because the method for arriving at a final, halacha li’maseh conclusion is itself a machlokes ha’poskim. However, I believe Moq was talking about the ramifications of a statement in the SA that is broadly accepted as halacha li’maseh (agreed upon by the Rema, MB, etc.).
First of all, I do not believe that Pirkei Avos is halacha li’maseh, as it is not brought down limaseh by the rishonim/achronim. After all, we do not all get married by 18.
Second, there are many, many different of interpratations of what this phrase is refering to (as there often is in Pirkei Avos). For instance, I saw a pshat that this is a reminder that loshon hara is not permitted between spouses, something that is often neglected.
Moq – As usual, you hit the nail on the head.
oomis1105 – First of all, I believe the reading comprehension of the CR members is at the point where we can figure out the gist of your arguments without you putting the key words in capitals for us.
“You assume that our young people are all just chomping at the bit to commit some unnameable aveiros. Maybe some of them ARE, and they would do it regardless. Most frum kids who are brought up in a normal environment where everything is not assered to them every five minutes (when it is not intrinsically assur from Hashem), do NOT behave in the way that you fear. Yes, maybe SOMEONE will, but it is not because of mixing the genders in a public place, it is because there is a fundamental behavior censor chip missing from them.”
And yet again, we hit the same arguments.
I believe that all people have a yetzer hara for arayos, and therefore we shouldn’t make it any easier for the yetzer hara to seduce them into sin.
You, to the best of my understanding, believe that the yetzer hara for arayos is not natural, but a result of too many chumros (“Most frum kids who are brought up in a normal environment where everything is not assered to them every five minutes… do NOT behave in the way that you fear”). Furthermore, you apparently believe that there are two types of people in this world: those who will always do aveiros, no matter what situation they’re in, and those who will never do aveiros, no matter what situation they are in (“Maybe some of them ARE, and they would do it regardless… Yes, maybe SOMEONE will, but it is not because of mixing the genders in a public place, it is because there is a fundamental behavior censor chip missing from them”), and that people are not at all affected by their surroundings.
As Moq pointed out, we keep getting back to these same points. Perhaps it is time we agree to disagree.
oomis1105 – You’re right, I should have said “the Rabbis are the only ones who we can be sure are qualified to paskan what the halacha is.”
SJSinNYC – “Wise people also realize that today, not talking to your wife unless its 100% tachlis will be detrimental to your marriage. “
Truly wise people also realize that the Chachomim of the Mishna were far, far wiser than anybody alive today, and if they wrote something down foe all future generations, you better believe it applies to all future generations. Now, obviously this teaching must be applied to today (R’ Twerski, for example, brings down a number of different interpretations in his sefer on Pirkei Avos), but that doesn’t mean we have a right to summarily dismiss a mishna, saying “today it’s different”. Hashem’s Torah still applies today.
Wolf – “Why? Do you feel that rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to talk about halacha?”
No, but the Rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to paskan what the halacha is.
Wolf – “Very well. Yes, I sinned when I opened this thread. And I’m sinning again by lying about it now. So I’m twice a sinner. And I’m sure that boasting about your sin is also a sin, making me a thrice-sinner. And I’m sure there’s a special place in hell reserved for people who use “high-falutin” words like “thrice.” Furthermore, I’m also fairly certain that it’s sinner for a person to suggest that you know who’s going to hell or not, since they clearly aren’t God who is the ultimate arbiter of final destinations… let’s see that makes at least six sins.”
Wow, sounds like a pretty full day 🙂
Wolf – “Your trust in them is greater than the Shulchan Aruchs and the Gedolim.
I think she probably knows her kids better than the Mechaber and the Gedolim.”
That doesn’t mean that we can change the halacha. As we know, Shlomo Hamelech was punished for having many horses and wives, even though he felt that the reasons stated in the pasuk did not apply to him. (Squeak, hope I made you proud:))
“A suggestion if I may… Please insert a blank line between the quote and your response. It makes it much easier to read.”
I actually used to do that, but for some reason if I put a double blank line it turns into one, and I felt it was more important have a unique separation between responses to different comments than between quotes and responses. However, I have recently picked up the _____ idea from lavdavka, so I’ll use that for the separation between responses between different comments. Like the new look?
_______________________________________________
Oomis 1105 – “I just find it so telling that so many of the CR members seem to assume that getting together in a mixed group AUTOMATICALLY leads to sin.”
I do not think that each and every mixed gathering is doomed to end in sin; however, I think that if all events are mixed, then yes, aveiros will almost certainly occur.
“I think first of all, that some people’s minds are too troubled by the fear that our kids are so poorly brought up that they have absolutely no way to go but to SIN. That says a lot about how confident we are that we have brought them up properly, Yeshivah education and our own teachings.”
As has been said before, the Gemera mentions the strength of the yetzer hara for arayos, and cautions how careful we must be about it. I don’t think it says anything about “how confident we are that we have brought them up properly, Yeshivah education and our own teachings” – I think it means that we feel that when it come to aveiros, better safe than sorry.
“I am saddened that so many appear to have no faith at all in their young people.”
There is a fine line between faith and naivete.
Sacrilige – “I think tou are giving too much clout to the “yetzer hara” as if its an actual identity”
And you make the yetzer hara sound like a fantasized creature who’s existence is in doubt. The yetzer hara exists, and he’s out to get every one of this. As I once heard in the name of one of the early chassidish rebbes (forgot which one), “you must think of the yetzer hara as a man standing over you with a sword, trying to cut your head off. And if you can’t think of him this way,it means he already has.” The first step in winning a war is to acknowledge you have an enemy. I apologize for the length of this rant, but it’s Elul and feel this topic is important.
“Do I think that there is something wrong with mature boys and girls mingaling and talking with eachother? no.”
Neither do I, assuming its for marriage purposes.
“Do I think that our frum society has made it into such a big deal that now so many people just want to do it, and then bad thing end up coming out of it for no reason? 1,000%”
No, “our frum society has made into such a big deal” precisely because bad things can (and often do) come out of it, and why take chances?
dunno – “Uh, how young do you think you can start college already? Usually graduating high school is a requirement.”
One can finish high school by 17 or 18, and that’s without taking shortcuts.
“You keep on repeating yourself as do I regarding meeting at a wedding – again SJSinNYC answers that.”
Answers what?
“I hate to inform you that not everyone on the “shidduch market” has the maturity you speak about.”
That may be true, but what does it have to do with anything?
“As to married people – those who want to cheat on thier spouses will find ways and reasons. I’ve never seen it BECAUSE of a mixed event.”
I believe Moq addressed this point extensively in his post(gray area people, advertising, etc.), and I do not see a rebuttal of his arguments, only a restatement of your position.
“One day I called my friend and asked her to go to the park with her son – she couldn’t come so her husband and son came instead. Our kids played and I had a nice time with her husband. V’zehu. Conversations were 100% kosher.”
The Mishnah in Pirkei Avos states “al tirbah sichah eim ha’eishah”, do not talk too much to your wife. The Chachamim darshan “kal v’chomer l’aishes chavayro”, even more so to your friends wife! Note how the Chachamim do not diffrenciate about waht it is that is being talked about, and said married people should not be overly engaging in conversation even if these conversations are “100% kosher”.
“And why do you call it a tayvah? They want to get married. Initial meeting point is often a moot point. Do you think MO people who meet on their own are just “in it for the tayvah”? Or do you think there is a chance they want to get married. Or is that just a yeshivish thing?”
I never said “MO people who meet on their own are just “in it for the tayveh””. However, all human beings have tayvos for arayos. This is a fact. Therefore, when some singles try to get to know each other it is indeed for marriage purposes, but some have other purposes in mind. And we cannot give those others an oppurtunity to get to now each other and do aveiros together.
And no, I do not think that wanting to get married is “just a yeshivish thing”. Why would I?
Sacrilege – Wow, am I confused. Who said anything about shabbos?
“how about a thread where we put up all the deleted posts from the past week in one place?
should engender a lot of interest.”
I was thinking a lot of outrage… but I suppose that is, after all, a from o f interest.
dunno – “In college you tend to have girls starting from 18-19 and boys 20-21. Most have already gone to Israel and are ready to settle down and start a family.”
I do no think that is the case. Boys and girls several years younger that than (usually from a more modern background) that often go to college, and even those that have gone to Israel aren’t necessarily “ready to settle down and start a family”.
“
“You also tell SJSinNYC that during the 3 hours by the wedding the boy and girl will form a bond so it’s likely to lead to sin. If that is the case, how are we allowing 2nd dates when going through a shidduch system? The first date tends to run for about the same amount of time if not longer.”
Again, the difference being that only singles seriously interested in getting married are going to a shadchan in the fist place, while anybody at any level of maturity can be at a wedding. I believe this is the 3rd time I have said this idea on this topic.
“In response to your last post, do you honestly think that when someone wants to get to know the opposite gender better it’s to sin??”
Most of the time, yes.
“it’s not tayvah. It’s called: “I got a good impression of this person. I want to get to know them better to see if we can maybe get married one day and raise a family together.”
Again, this is only if these people are both at a certain maturity level, and not everybody at a wedding (or at a college) have that maturity. Therefore, mixing genders will result in a greater amount of aveiros happening.
Sacrilege – “The bottom line is people who want to get in trouble will get in trouble people who dont wont. Nothing just happens.”
While that may be true to some extent, it is not a black and white rule. If it was so simple, then we would only have two types of people in this world: total tzaddikim and total rushahim, and this is obviously not the case. Everybody has a breaking point – a certain amount of tayveh that they find it very hard not to succumb to. And the closer you get to that point, the harder it is for them to resist the yetzer hara. Putting immature boys and girls together, giving them a chance to get to know one another and to exchange contact info, will increase their desire to get together and sin.
blinky – “This is such an important concept-a friend was driving and a child just ran in front of her car. She braked and just missed hitting him. Shaken, she saw the kids mother on the porch talking on a cell phone. She told the mother that she almost hit her kid. The mother barely glanced up and mumbled, “oh whatever” or something like that. She had to drive over to a corner to stop her from shaking with fear and anger-toward this irresponsible mother. She said she felt like calling in authorities right than and there.”
I believe that case would definitely qualify for the “reading of the riot act” that was mentioned before. Your friend should have pointed out (nicely, of course) that this is a extremely risky thing to do, and that this mother was playing russian roulette with her child just so she could talk on the phone!!
In general, there is a mitzvah of “hochaich tocheach es amisecha” – you shall rebuke my people. If you see somebody doing something wrong and/or dangerous, say something to them!
“So a boy with lists of girls is therefore more likely to sin than a boy with less prospects?”
Of course. The more opportunities one has to do aveiros, the greater the chances that he will do it, don’t you agree?
“People don’t stand around at a wedding and say “Who do I sin with next?”
Some don’t, some do.
“They say “This seems like a nice person, let me get to know them better.”
You can’t be serious. Why do you think people of opposite genders want “to know each other better”?! It’s called tayveh, and it doesn’t end there!
Moq – Very well said, and I couldn’t agree more.
dunno – “As a general rule most college age students are looking to get married as they fall between the 18 to 23 range (for undergrad). Again, I am talking about your run of the milll frum guy/girl.”
Just because somebody is above 18 doesn’t automatically guarantee that they are serious and “looking to get married”. There are still plenty of 18-20 year old who are looking for nothing more than a good time.
Oh, and I think you should read Moqs comment (if you haven’t already) seeing as it talks more about coed colleges (which you have been championing) than mixed seating (which seems to be SJSinNYC’s main point).
SJSinNYC – “During coed functions with adults (we can debate teenage years as a different point), nothing happens in the open. If something happens, in private, it would have happened anyway. We are talking about people who are dating for marriage. Can you trust them on a date?”
For the umpteenth time: We are NOT only talking about serious adults, or “people who are dating for marriage”. We are talking about anybody and everybody who will be affected by making weddings and other such events coed – people of all ages and all maturity levels.
“If something happens, in private, it would have happened anyway.”
No it wouldn’t have, these two people wouldn’t know each other exist, forget be doing various aveiros together!
“sitting at a table with someone who may be your bashert for 3 hours with 400 people in the room will not lead to licentiousness any more than being in a hotel lobby will. “
Of course it will – it will give the two of them 3 more hours to form a bond, and once that bond is formed it has much more potential to become very, very destructive. And if you honestly think that there is no difference between meeting somebody in passing in a lobby and sitting down for 3 hours with them, then how would mixed seating help form shidduchim? They’re meeting in the lobby anyways!
charliehall – “Almost all of us have something like that in our background, either ourselves or in our family history. And most of us who claim that there isn’t are simply in denial. We are all imperfect people and the Torah lifestyle allows us to serve HaShem in spite of our imperfections. “
Yes, nobody perfect, and of course we should serve Hashem anyways. However, would you want your child to get married to somebody with “genetic diseases/psychological disorders”? Or worse, get married and only then find out that their spouse has serious issues? If that is indeed the case, then dating without research is for you.
000646 – Again, besides for the rauch hakodesh aspect, the Gedolim are much more educated in spiritual matters than we are and if they say something we should take their word for it. Lehavdil, when you go to the doctor and the doctor proscribes a certain pill, you question the decision. You know that the doctor has spent years in school being educating about this, and that he is basing his decision on his years of schooling and years of experience. Same with the Gedolim: they know much, much more about ruchniyus than we do, so questioning their decisions is like an patient uneducated in medicine questioning the doctors prescription.
dunno – “Like SJSinNYC said: improper things can happen with shidduch dating also. It seems like you have no argument for the actual meeting in public. Once two people determine they would like to continue seeing each other they go on dates no different than shidduchim – alone, and without adult supervision.”
Again, the only people that go on shidduchim dates are, by definition, serious singles looking to get married. However, the people at a wedding can be there for any reason and are not necessarily as mature as those ready to get married.
000646 – “Since when did Hashem start telling Gedolim why he does things? Gedolim can tell us what they reccomend we work on. But since when did Hashem start talking to them, and telling them the reasons things happen?”
The Gedolim are, by definition, the most spiritually developed individuals of their day. Therefore, they have amassed far more knowledge about A) what Hashem wants from us and B) why He wants it than we have. With their superior knowledge of the ratzon Hashem, they can figure out what He wants us to do in any situation.
Wolf, your right I should’ve said “a Sanhedrin”.
Helpful, I’m fairly certain that a a person can only be killed now to prevent him from killing somebody else, but not in punishment.
oomis1105 – “And I heard that the purpose of the head covering (shaitel or otherwise) is to remind the WOMAN herself that she is an eishes ish, so she will not behave in an unseemly way. If that is true, then it makes no difference how realistic the wig looks. She is well aware of it at all times. Even the most comfortable wig is still REALLY THERE. We are always aware of it. “
This may be an additional hashkafadic point of wearing a sheitel, bu it is certainly not the halachic reason that a sheitel is worn.
“Can a ‘moser’ be killed today?”
No, only the Sanhedrin can put people to death.
dunno – “The only option I can give you is to walk through a co-ed college which frum people attend. Among the run of the mill frum people I haven’t seen problems.”
Again, even if people are doing improper things they aren’t going to do it in the middle of a public college now, are they?
“It’s pretty hard to show something that doesn’t exist; however, I am offering you a solution to see that it is not the way you think.”
Again, you chose an unintelligent put-down instead of a logical argument. Ah well, at least you included some logic this time.
SJSinNYC – “Aren’t we talking about those of marriagable age?”
In the classic jewish style, I”m going to answer your question with a question: when you have mixed seating at a wedding, are only those of marriageable age mixed, or is everybody? In all the weddings I’ve gone to, its been all or nothing. And if you mix 16-18 year olds, you’re not asking for trouble, you’re getting down on your hands and knees and begging for trouble.
“As an aside, you would be surprised how many of my right wing friends were not shomer once they got engaged”
I’m very sorry to here that, and I hope they did t’shuvah (if not, Yom Kippur is coming, maybe you should remind them). But what does that have to do with whether there should be mixed seating or not?
“You seem to equate going to a mixed college with negiah issues. If that is the case, it’s not worth arguing with you.”
Yes, I firmly believe mixing college-aged members of different genders will almost certainly lead to negiah, yichud, and worse. I haven’t seen any logical rebuttal of this argument, only an unintelligent brush-off.
yentish – “if a WOMAN CAN tell that another woman is wearing a shaitel than its muttar. note that its if another woman can tell, cuz men usually cant tell anyway the difference if the shaitel is very natural.”
I’m not sure why you think the difference between a good shaitel or a bad shaitel is if another woman can tell its fake. Isn’t the whole issur for a man to see a married woman’s hair? Either those that a man can’t tell are fake should be no good, or they should all be good. I don’t see any valid position in the middle.
basmelech – “I think that although covering one’s hair with a natural looking sheitel is technically not ossur as far as hair covering is concerned, it may be ossur for mar-as ayin, that it looks like one’s hair is not covered, and also if it is so eye catching that it makes men want to look at a woman, then it is an issue of lack of tsnius. Just like one shouldn’t wear clothing that make a man look at a woman, her sheitel should also not be attention getting.”
Well said, that is my view on the issue as well.
oomis1105 – “For all people who think that eye-catching is the issue in tznius, there are plenty of very tzniusdig women who are eye-catching and attention-getting for other reasons: a) They are dressed all in black b)they have a LOT of kids with them c)they are obese (that goes for their husbands, too) d) they are trying to show how tzniusdig they are – it backfires. You get the idea.
Eye-catching is a very ambiguous expression, it can mean many things.”
Please. Do you honestly believe that being obese or having alot of kids is a breach of tzniyus? (Oh, and how does dressing in black attract attention?)
“People are tzniusdig or not, but other people will look if they want to look, no matter what others are doing or not doing.”
True, if a woman is tzniusdig and men look anyway then its not her problem. However, if she doesn’t dress and act properly and men look, she is going to have to give a din v’cheshbon.
SJSinNYC – “I still don’t know what coed functions lead to because I’ve been to many and nothing improper happened.”
I’m going to adresss this one point at a time:
“I still don’t know what coed functions lead to”
Let me spell this out for you: Boys and girls, when they get together, tend to form relationships that rarely end in marriage, but almost without exception leads to issurim.
“I’ve been to many and nothing improper happened.”
Well people aren’t going to do anything improper right in the middle of a public simcha now, are they?
oomis1105 – “”People wouldn’t go to a mixed college because of the stigma involved. “
There is only a stigma in the minds of some people because THEY stigmatize it. I have no problem with mixed colleges. Two of my children met their wonderful zivugim there, and I could not be happier. There was a time when there were no Touro Colleges with separate schedules, and all the frum kids went to Brooklyn or Queens College (otherwise to a branch of YU). They are the parents of the generation that now does NOT go to mixed college. Should anyone have a chashash on those parents? They seemed to turn out well religiously.”
Mixing colleges would indeed help make more shidduchim, and the products of the mixed colleges do indeed often “turn out well religiously”. Nobody is arguing that. However, mixing genders will definitely lead to one thing – aveiros. And short of pikuach nefushos, we cannot knowingly put ourselves on a course that will lead to aveiros, no matter what benefits it looks like it will bring to us in the future.
Oh, and a quick reminder – Hashem runs the world. He, and only He, controls how many shidduchim are made and how many are CH”V not. He does not need our help. Now obviously we have to do our hishtadlus, but only within the confines of following the ratzon Hashem. And I highly highly doubt that it is the ratzon Hashem that we go down a path that will lead to more aveiros being done.
Sister Bear – “The need for a mechitza is so the men don’t see the women by davening, right? Or is the issur that women aren’t allowed to be seen davening?
So if there is a mechitza, but one that the men could see right through and/or over then is one allowed to daven there? Is a women? Is a man?”
R’Moshe holds as long as there is a physical separation between the men and the women, davening is permitted. (However, a man cannot daven/learn/say a brachah when seeing an inappropriately dressed woman.)
SJSinNYC – “it would be nice to do away with the stigma of meeting someone on your own, especially if its through a kosher outlet”
Again, whether the outlet that a boy and girl meet through is kosher or not, once they meet they can have a relationship as unkosher as they want.
dunno – “I don’t know who you’re in contact with but I have spoken to many Touro students who would love for it to become mixed. The frummer ones tend to lean towards Sara Schenirer and Raizel Reit. I am not trying to push my hashkafos on anyone – I was involved in the Touro community and the general consensus was that it would be easier mixed.”
And if you took a poll whether the issur of negia should be suspended, I wouldn’t be too surprised if most people said yes. Just because something is popular doesn’t mean its right.
“[Frum colleges should be mixed] To provide singles with another means of making shidduchim.”
As gavra_at_work said, those who feel they need to be in a mixed college inn order to find a shidduch have plenty of options already. Also, as I pointed out to oomis1105 above in this comment, Hashem is the only One who makes shidduchim, and He does not need our help. We obviously still have to our hishtadlus, but we shouldn’t kid ourselves into thinking that it is all up to us, and therefore if we have to go down a path where aveiros will happen so be it. Our job is to do what Hashem tells us to do, and He will take care of the end results.
Max well – “Chukas hagoyim stems from things at least tangentially related to idol/foreign religion worship or promiscuity.”
According to many shitos, chukas hagoyim is on anything related to and associated with a secular culture, for fear that we will become enmeshed in a non-Torah culture and lose sight of our priorities.
so right – “And Gedolei Yisroel clearly and unambigously are 100% opposed to mixed seating at a wedding. “
This is news to me. As I mentioned before, I have seen my Rosh Hayeshivah attend mixed simchos, and he’s pretty into following the Gedolim. Which gedolim have paskaned that mixed seating is assur?
yosr – As has been said before by popa_bar_abba, don’t just debate him on zionism, debate him on the practices of the Neturei Karta.