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Mazal Tov!
Squeak: lol!!!
Helpful: “nobody on this thread indicated they read Reb Moshe’s teshuva and disputes the “interpertation”. In fact there is nothing to “interpert”.”
I quote:
“Just checked the teshuvos in Reb Moshe, and in at least two of them he says that frum people (yirei shamayim) who do shake hands hold that it is not derech chiba and we should be dan them lchaf zchus. However, he finds it hard to rely on this heter. He says I don’t see a contradiction to the fact that I was matir buses, because there it is not derech chiba for just about everybody.
(Please note that your writing makes it seem like Reb Moshe is screaming that shaking hands is terrible, and NOT comparable to buses, etc. However, the actual language is much more gentle and understanding, and clearly there is what to rely on for another Rov to pasken differently. It is all a matter of judgment as to how much derech chiba there is in a handshake. He doesn’t say asur lismoch al zeh or chas vshalom lismoch al zeh. He says kasheh lismoch al zeh.)”
“No one of stature disagrees with Rav Moshe.”
Really? Have you checked every single halacha sefer written in that time? And many of them don’t have indexes like the Iggros Moshe does, so you’d need to know the entire sefer! Again, you are no posaik, don’t argue with those who are.
potsandpans: Never heard that one before. As always though, all halacha li’maseh shailos should go to your LOR, not the CR.
noitallmr: I would imagine that both reasons are valid.
d a: The Will is very good (I forgot the author). Btw are we talking about only jewish books here?
Helpful: R’ Moshe also assurs all music, unless it is by a seudas mitzva. But sometimes, we don’t paskan like R’ Moshe.
And besides, your interpretation of R’ Moshe’s teshuva has is not accepted by everybody else here who saw the teshuva.
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Sacrilege: “That is a good point.”
Why thank you.
“But the thing is that there is a lot of leeway (sp?) in this scenerio and I dont think its such a black and white thing.”
I never said it was black and white. However, it is just as important (if not more important) to consult your LOR for the gray areas as it is for the black and white.
Btw, what does “sp” mean?
arc: “It should be built. As jews we should appreciate the freedom of religion and the right to build shuls wherever the zoning allows. to pick and choose whom we allow is a slippery slope.”
Couldn’t agree more. As jews, our primary concern in America is our Freedom of Religion. We cannot have that tampered with, at any cost.
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oomis1105 – “The freedom of religion does not apply to a religion that BANS ALL freedom of religion.”
I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but our religion also “BANS ALL freedom of religion”. As a matter of fact, if somebody from our religion converts to another, we stone them. And yet we still want the Freedom of Religion to apply to us, don’t we?
“But we are not talking about RIGHTS, but whether or not it is RIGHT to do it.”
OK, if you want to talk about that: No, it’s not very nice of them to build a mosque next to ground zero. However, they have every legal right, and let’s face it, that’s all that matters.
“Did a Christian or Jewish group hijack three planes and murder thousands of people in the space of a few minutes?”
No, but Christians did cruelly murder thousands of jews and muslims in the crusades and the inquisitions. Should we not allow any churches anywhere in Europe?
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AinOhdMilvado: “What is in their hearts is “We attacked you, We killed thousands of you, NOW we will use YOUR own stupid political correctness to commemorate our victory by building a mosque on your graves!!!””
I have no idea what “is in their hearts”. However, it makes no difference: Freedom of Religion is Freedom of Religion, regardless of intent.
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SJS/000646/squeak – Well said.
Helpful: “If someone posts here that she has a “heter” for something so obviously wrong, people do not have to accept such claims at face value and have a right – nay, obligation — to question and/or dispute such highly questionable and/or obviously wrong (especially anonymous) so-called heteirim.”
Again, you are no Rav. Therefore, you have no right to “dispute” the pasak of a Rav. Ever. Period. Question what the reasoning behind it, maybe, but to argue? Where do you have smicha from that allows you to paskan halacha?!
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Sacrilege: “I am not a Rav (and I didnt ask one)”
And there’s your problem. Do you have smicha? If not, why do you think you know what the halacha is?
“Also, I am just way too lazy to go and explain for 45 minutes why I am not going to be shaking their hand, 2 seconds it’s done, and for the rest of the meeting they arent looking at you like you have horns on your head. Don’t tell me they’ll respect you for it. I dont think they do.”
I hate to break this to you , but the halacha must be followed even when it’s not the lazy way out, and even when people won’t respect you for it. If the halacha says something is assur, whether it is convenient or not makes no difference: we must do what Hashem tells us to do, whether we enjoy it or not.
Helpful: “mw13, its called for when someone repeatedly and constantly twists gemorahs not to her liking to reinterpert it to her liking — often with the exact opposite meaning the gemorah intended. I repeat, this has been a pattern.”
No, that doesn’t call for labeling a woman “narrowminded”.
If you have an issue with oomis’s interpretations of gemaros, say so. You had some fairly intelligent arguments in your post – but what exactly do you think you accomplished (besides sounding incredibly narrow minded yourself) with your first sentence?
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ooimis1105 – “What the Gemorah intended should be what HASHEM intended.”
It is. That leads to the obvious question: What exactly did the Gemora mean? That’s where the all the Rishonim, Achronim, etc. come in: to tell us what the Gemora truly meant, and how to apply its principles halacha li’maseh.
“Sometimes there seems to be a conflict, and that is what bothers me. If Hashem does not want women’s hair to be visible even in their own homes and actually SAID SO at HAr Sinai, then that is the halacha and i would never question it.”
In case you didn’t notice, Hashem did not give us a Shulchan Orach style assur/muttar checklist. He gave us far more: Principles that can be applied (by the Rabbonim) to any case.
“I do not believe however, that Hashem said that EVER”
Hashem may not have told us directly: however, the Rabbonim have deduced from the words of Gemaros and the principles that they contain, that this is Hashem’s will. Is it a chiyuv? Of course not. Is it a good thing to do? Unquestionably.
“Don’t disparage someone because she does not believe… that everything written in the Gemarah is also meant to be followed as halacha, when in fact what it is doing is serving to teach an ideal that some people feel is right for them.”
Disparaging somebody is indeed wrong. However, as Helpful pointed out, why would the Gemora bring down a story if not to approve of it? And as Midwest2 said, which yeshivos did you learn in that you are so confident in your explanations of what the Gemora means? Did you even read the Gemora once? Probably not, no? So then what gives you the ability to explain to us what the Gemora is or is not referring to?
“the entire discussion about tznius in exercise is naarishkeit. If a woman is alone, and all exercising women in general, she should be dressed comfortable so she doesn’t get heat stroke from the exercise. Zumba (I don’t do it myself), is a vigorous dancing type exercise, perhaps African in nature. It works all the muscles of the body and is quite effective, I have heard. If you believe women should dress in long sleeves and dresses to exercise, then dress that way. The rest of us want to be comfortable in the rpivacy of our own homes.”
Yes, I fully understand that you want to be comfortable while exercising. However, what do you think should come first on your list of priorities: comfort, or fulfilling the halacha?! If the halacha says something is assur, whether it is comfortable and convenient or not makes no difference: we must do what Hashem tells us to do, whether we enjoy it or not. Being frum is not always easy.
Oh yes and holykugel: Keep calling, don’t just call once and give up. Obviously be nice and respectful, but persistent pleas are much more effective than one-time calls.
blinky: “I don’t think this is the underlying factor why schools don’t have money. Its true that some ppl do spend money that they don’t have on other things, but its not a general rule. Some ppl just dont have the money. And they are not the ppl who have the fancy homes… “
Nobody is denying that there are people who simply can’t pay tuition. But those who can, must.
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squeak: “If you don’t pay for your vacations, massive simchos, fancy cars, etc – no one else will pay for them on your behalf. You simply won’y have those items. But if you don’t pay for your childrens’ chinuch someone else will pay for you. You miss out nothing by not paying.”
Until, of course, the school closes down. Then you have a problem.
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SJSinNYC: I think that cleaning help 2x a week is normal and necessary. But for those willing to cope without it, kol hakavod!
Chosson: “What’s the heter? Or that’s where we get our blind “Emunas Chachamim”?”
Yes, actually. The power of the Rabbonim is to pasken halacha, to both assur and matir. Or do you only follow your Rav’s chumros?
I find it disturbing that people here so readily bash people relying on the pasak of their Rav. Any Rav undoubtedly knows far more about the halacha than anybody on this thread does. Who are you to question a Rav’s pasak?
Caveat: I am not in any way condoning hypocrisy in following a Rav’s pasakim. I am, however, saying that no hypocrisy of such type has occurred here, and I am therefore not sure why everybody is bashing it. SJSinNYC simply stated that her Rav gave her a heter to shake a non-jewish man’s hand – where’s the hypocrisy in that?
Helpful: Call me a critic, but somehow, I doubt that.
sof davar hakol nishma: I was always under the impression that that gemora was referring to secular leaders (a reference to something I believe is called democracy), and I find your comparison between Rabbonim and dogs disturbing.
Helpful: “since when do women give their own narrowminded teitch of gemorahs?”
Uncalled for.
“Yes, the gemorah cites Kimchis because the gemorah agrees with her. And no, the gemorah is not C”V “mistaken”, nor does the gemorah affirmatively and positively cite “mistaken” people.
The point about Kimchis isn’t only applicable to Kohanim. The point is by applying such tznius one will be greatly rewarded.”
Couldn’t agree more.
APY: Thanks for the reminder. Sometimes we get so caught up in this world, and we forget the the reality that Hashem and Hashem alone runs this world…
no it all: “to raise a diff point wht about the arcades in these places that the girls go and dance as if they are in there room with there wii how can any of us bring our older boys to an arcade place on chol hamoed or any time it is ridiculous”
Good point. (Btw, you you probably wanted to say their room/their wii, not there.)
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oomis1105: “Chazal included this story in the Gemarah to illustrate a certain hashkafa in tznius… and certainly not meant to imply it is halacha.”
Nobody said it was halacha; it was merely said that it is a good hashkafa, just as you said.
Perhaps you should ask your husband to go over to the Rav of the shul he davens in; if that’s not an option, Rabbonim aren’t usually too hard to find (hint: they tend to be in shuls) and are usually more than willing (and often able) to help.
That said, I wish you a bracha that your children should get into the school that’s good for them b’mihairah, and that they should excel and grow there.
artchill: “Chicago contracts out tuition decisions. Each parent must send in their Tax Returns to the contractor who has a computer algorithm that sets a tuition rate. This takes the ability of one domineering tuition commitee member from taking revenge against families he doesn’t get along with.”
That could very well be one of the best ideas I’ve ever heard. Tax returns = no lying to the yeshiva unless you want to risk the wrath of the IRS (for the complete fools who fear the wrath of the IRS more than the wrath of Heaven); private contractor/algorithm = no (OK, less) fighting or haggling over tuition, it is what it is. Brilliant.
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This has been said again and again here, but I think it’s worth repeating one more time: People must, and when I say must I mean positively must, stop putting tuition at the bottom of their list of things to spend money on. As has been recently demonstrated in Lakewood, schools need money to function. Therefore, your tuition is your investment in your child: there is absolutely nothing (short of bare necessities) that could possibly be more important than that! How can people even think of paying for vacations, massive simchos, fancy cars/house/clothes etc, before paying for their children’s chinuch?! Where are their priorities?! Where are their brains?! What on earth are they thinking?!
Squeak: “Thanks for the responses, but I’m not looking for suggestions from anyone here. What I would like to see is a letter from the Gedolim explaining what the primary cause of this crisis is so that we can go about fixing the root of the problem. Perhaps we can get the 70 to sign it and put an end to this cruel game?”
I hate to break it to you, but if you want to do that you’re going to have to do more than start a thread about it in the CR. There’s not much that any of us can do to help you on this one.
squeak – “I want to know whether our leadership considers this an issue worth addressing. Are the people who ‘make the Gedolim aware’ of other issues in our community doing the same with this situation?”
I personally have no idea what is happening behind the Gedolim’s doors, and I would be surprised if anybody in the CR really did. Therefore, I’m not entirely sure what answer, if any, you’re looking for. You want to know what the Gedolim will do? How is anybody supposed to know that?
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artchill – “The reality is, there is no school or institution that is too big to fail. There is no inyan to have an able-bodied person with a decent mind sit and drink coffee all day. I’m in full agreement that married men should learn in kollel when they get married. But, by the beginning of Shana Revi’i close to 85% of them are burnt out and spending more time shmoozing about yenem than about Abaye and Ravah.”
First of all, where did you get this figure from? I wasn’t aware that there was an organization keeping track of exactly how much Torah is being learnt by every person in kollel, and would ttherefore be able to give you such a figure.
Secondly, the problems that squeak referred to were specifically about the sustainability of the school system. How much is or is not being learnt in kollels around the world is a different issue.
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Dave Hirsch – “There is one answer. Government. We pay taxes like everyone else, school tax, we deserve better. If we would all decide tomorrow that we are enrolling into public school, far more money would be needed from their part. We have the schools, buildings and infrastructure ready, we just need that shot-in-the-arm. Let them give us half ($9,000!) of the amount they spend on each public school student and we’ll be fine with it.”
Beside the issue that gavra_at_work pointed out, there is another problem. If the government could indeed be convinced to switch to a “school voucher” program (in which each child would get a “coupon” for $X toward tuition in the school of their choice, as opposed to simply being assigned to a nearby public school), you can bet that the government would make a ridiculous amount of rules and regulations that would need to be fulfilled in order to make a school eligible. And I’m not entirely convinced that these rules would be the type of rules that the average frum school can or should be following.
For example, let’s say one of the rules is that all schools in the program must spend at least half the day studying math, science, literature, or the arts. Let’s say a child has a 7 hour school day: 1:30 would be spent on meals (if the federal regulations didn’t make the meals longer), 2:45 on mandatory secular subjects, and 45 minutes for shachris (assuming the federal regulations allowed for prayer, which might not be the case as I believe the Supreme Court recently ruled that government-funded schools could not have prayer due to separation of church and state), leaving just 2 hours for any and all Jewish studies (including breaks). See where I’m going with this?
AZ – “denying the premise doesn’t serve as a solution to it.”
As they say; if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
charliehall – “If any rabbis “knew” what was going to happen I’m unaware of any who made made any public statements or left us any writings to this effect.”
In all fairness, even if such statements were made, things were not documented too often those days, and of the things that were recorded, many were lost in the Holocaust. I’m not saying that the Rabbonim did predict the Holocaust; I’m just pointing out that if they did, chances are we still might not know about.
AZ – “denying the premise doesn’t serve as a solution to it.”
As they say; if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Health – “You implied (and possibly mean) that noone should have cell phones. This is typical of the mentality nowadays -find a problem and assur the whole thing. I think people do this in our generation to pat themselves on the back -saying to themselves -“I’m better than everyone else”.”
I think that the vast majority of people who assur things do it (as crazy as this might sound) because they think those things are having a negative influence, and they want that influence stopped. Not because they think everybody else is isn’t frum, not because they think they’re “better than everyone else”, not even to “pat them selves on the back”. I think they do it because they see a problem, and want it fixed. Just because somebody wants things differently than you do does not mean he looks down on you. We have (or at least should have) the right to be machmir without being accused of “hating”, “shunning”, or forming an “exclusive club”. Why assume the worst? Can’t we at least entertain the possibility that all those “frummies” might actually be decent, well-meaning people? Or is that too much to ask?
oomis1105 – I cannot for the life of me fathom how you can possibly believe that inter-gender relationships will will lead to engagements, but not cause aveiros. But if you wish to believe that is the case, that is your right.
However, you failed to answer my question: In light of all the halachos that Kasha posted, do you honestly think that according to daas Torah, there’s nothing wrong with inter-gender relationships?
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nossond – “I’m surprised no one mentioned this. Al Tarbe Sicha… has nothing to do with listening to your wife talk. It has all to do with the man saying more (too much more) than is necessary. This is great advice between husband and wife. Listen more talk less.”
Good point.
oomis1105
REALLY mw13? It isn’t a mitzvah? That’s not how I understood the first perakim of Breishis.”
From which pasukim do you get this understanding from?
“BTW – if it were not a mitzvah, we would not make brachos on it. The wedding I just went to convinces me you are mistaken.
As has been explained above, that bracha is not a birchas ha’mitzva.
popa_bar_abba – “Aside: NK is guilty of much worse than burning Israeli flags. They are guilty of strengthening the position of our enemies. It is probable that they have been indirectly responsible for the murder of Jews.”
Shaking the hands of men responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of jews is despicable and totally wrong. However, it is a far cry from being “indirectly responsible for the murder of Jews”.
oomis1105 – “They started out as friends, and then realized they wanted to change the status to dating”
Tell me, why would they “change the status to dating” if they felt no attraction to each other?
“And if you think otherwise, that’s your prerogative, but please don’t project your prejudices onto my family.”
First of all, you were the one who brought your family into this, not Kasha. Second, a prejudice is by definition about a person, and I do not believe anybody has said anything bad about the middos, behavior, derech eretz, and temimus of your kids. Again, just because somebody says “doing x is wrong’ doesn’t necessarily mean they think anybody who does x has a problem with their middos, behavior, derech eretz, or temimus.
And as Kasha said, look at all the halachos that Kasha so kindly quoted and tell me: Can you honestly say that according to daas Torah, there’s nothing wrong with inter-gender relationships?
lesschumros – I got a little carried away in my previous post, and I apologize.
That said, it disturbs me to no end that you refer to yiridas hadoros, a concept that was told to us by men far greater than you and me, as a “myth”. In Judaisim, no question is off limits – but please, wait for an explanation before you so casually dismiss something!
“Why is it necessary to make believe that Yehuda didn’t do what he did with Tamar?”
As has been explained, there are many, many meforshim that deal with these types of problems (Yehudah and Tamar, the Aigel, the Meroglim, etc). If you truly want an answer I would suggest either looking them up or asking somebody who is likely to be knowledgeable in these things (like your LOR).
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oomis1105 – “Are you seriously comparing actual yichud and negiah to people sitting together at a simcha or talking together in the street, at shul, in school, or at a social event of some other type????? I do not believe this!”
No, I am not saying that mixed seating is assur, as yichud and negiah are. I am, however, pointing out that the Rabbonim obviously did not think “trust” is the way to go when it comes to the yetzer hara of arayos. As Moq, pointed out, it would be nice if you actually responded to my point, instead of informing me that you “do not believe this!” Look at all the halachos that Kasha so kindly quoted in “Al Tarbe Sicha Im Haeisha” and tell me: Can you honestly say that according to daas Torah, there’s nothing wrong with inter-gender contact?
“Maybe according to that way of thinking, a boy should not even be allowed to drive a girl in his car on a date. That is Yichud, too. And she is really at his mercy if the car is on a deserted road.”
As a matter of fact yes, it is yichud for an unrelated male and female to be alone in car in a place where nobody else is likely to pass by.
aries2756 – First of all, calm down. I never said there are no issues that are causing kids to go off the derech – I was just questioning which reasons you were referring to, seeing as you failed to mention any in your first post. And yes, these are the reasons that many go off the derech, but others also go off from pure tayvah.
“Do you want to talk about glorifying physicality? Do you have a crystal chandelier in your home? Do you possess silver and gold? What about diamonds? Do you get fancy linen from Elegant Linen? What other forms of physicality do YOU surround yourself with? Don’t be a hypocrite!”
That’s not quite the type of physicality I was referring to. I was referring to the fact that the culture around us encourages and elevates the mindless, animalistic pursuit of tayveh and instant gratification. If children watch TV/unfiltered internet for hours a day, will they learn the value of giving to others, of self-control, of doing what’s right no matter how hard it seems? Or will they CH”V learn just the opposite?
(Now, lest I be accused of “hating”, “shunning”, or forming an “exclusive club”: NO, I do not look down on those who do have TVs in their homes. I simply don’t think it’s a good idea.)
“Don’t be a hypocrite!”
How can you possibly accuse me of being a hypocrite?! You know nothing about me! For all you know, I might be living in a trailer park, feeding my family by collecting garbage! Why do you keep on jumping to conclusions like this?
“And whenever you start a thread criticizing other people, you are going to lead people down a path of loshon horah.”
Once again, I do not believe that this thread was created to criticize people, just to warn them.
And if you truly believe criticizing will lead to lashon hara, why do you spend so much time criticizing others?
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sof davar hakol nishma – “aries, mw13, you can’t make a klal of why kids go OTD. Each situation is it’s own story, it’s own ‘history’ how can we come and make a klal? Yes you can say that ______ is a helping force. That the combo of no shalom bayis, internet,…or whatever but how can you nail it on one thing? and for each kid it’s a whole different story!”
I wholeheartedly agree. Did I imply otherwise?
oonis1105 – Either you could go with a freind/relative who is a lifeguard, or just go to “enjoy the beauty of the sand and ocean”.
aries2756 – The aveirah of the cheit hamoraglim was the loshon hara they said, not the actual act of spying.
Saying “how do parents expect to teach their children…” may be slightly judgmental, but I think the poster was just emphasizing the danger that he believes cell phone pose. And I certainly think it is a far cry from “speaking about how others are not keeping torah and mitzvos properly”, “a total put down”, “ripe for loshon horah”, “a judgment that others are wrong and I am right and they are not doing what they are supposed to be doing”, “nasty”, “holier than thou”, “utterly disrespectful”, etc. I don’t see how anything in the original post warrants such accusations.
“For instance, the remark that cell phones have caused the yeridah, just look how kids are being mechalel shabbos with cell phones. Please, it is not cell phones or internet that has caused kids to go off the derech. It is other Jews who have pushed and shoved them off the derech.”
Huh? Who is going around “shoving” people off the derech?
“Blaming cell phones, internet, tv, or anything else is not only ludicrous but it shows how much people choose to be in denial rather than face the real issues right under their noses.”
Why is this ludicrous? To me it seems very logical: if you surround your children with things that glorify physicality, you can’t expect them not to be affected by it.
And what precisely are these “real issues right under our noses”?
SDHN – Never said it will.
“This is not very feasible. How will you convince a girl of 19 to not date in the midst of a shidduch crisis?”
Perhaps we could convince them to work for a few years before going onto the market, and besides then they’d have some money to start off with too.
“Who will decree this and be accepted?”
Now we get to the hard part. Maybe the Agudah? Probably still wouldn’t have much of an effect, I know. The only way to get people to listen is to do something that bites – like, get a whole bunch of Rabbonim to sign that they won’t attend any chasunos where the girl is under 20/21. And maybe convince some halls/caterers not to service these weddings, too.
What exactly is this R’ Amon Yitzchak trying to change?
popa_bar_abba – Whoa. The nazis burned six million jews to death; NK occasionally burns Israeli flags. I don’t think the two are quite the same.
“MW13, Unfortunately, those kind of answers bother me, like we are no longer on the madreiga for this or that. Yiftach bdoro kShmuel bdoro. It is sort of an easy way out type of thing when we can’t see something, we say it only happened at XYZ generation to XYZ people.”
Let me put it this way: I assume that you believe that nevuah did exist, but doesn’t anymore. So why wouln’t you say the same about sheidim?
“Supposedly there is a Maamar Chazal that there were actually 600,000 Neviim throughout history. But we only have 24 books of Nach, because all the others were only for their dor, and were not relevant for later on. Only the ones in Nach are applicable for all time. So why do Chazal talk about things that are not applicable to me? And if you say it is relevant for the future, but the gemara also asks sometimes: Hilchesa limeshicha?”
There is a big difference between a Chazal and a Gemora. A Chazal is there to teach us what we should do (hashkafa, mussar, etc) while the Gemora is there to tell us what the halacha is. If you try getting halacha li’maseh conclusions out of every Chazal and Medrash, you might be busy for a while.
sof davar hakol nishma – Very true.
Midwest2 – “So, what about here and now? There are several reasons suggested, and most of them are right. One major reason is simply mathematical. 2+2=4 and 2-2=0. I’m comfortable with math and numbers and I can assure you that if you have equal numbers of boys and girls in each year, that if you remove the boys from three years worth of young people, that you will end up with three years’ worth of “extra” girls. Your “moving average” will asure that as boys get married and leave at one end of the pipleline and a new year’s worth enters, that if the pipleline for boys begins at age 21 and the girls’ at age 18, you are always going to have 3 years worth of girls “in excess.” This is objective. I’m not sure how to change it.”
True. Perhaps we should raise the age that girls start dating to 20 or even 21? That should ensure three year’s worth of girls aren’t automatically chairless.
aries2756 – “when someone starts a thread to knock others who are doing things THEY don’t approve of I believe it is counter productive to the concept of ahavas yisroel.”
Neither do I. However, I do not believe that was the purpose that the thread-opener had in mind when he started this thread. It sounds to me like he started this thread to warn people about the incredible dangers that cell phones can pose, both to the young and to the old. I keep hearing about this “plague” of holier-than-thou frummies, but I haven’t seen them around in anything near the numbers to warrant such a fear of them. Therefore, my conclusion is that alot of this “hate” is imagined/misinterpreted. Just because somebody is doing things differently than you does not mean he looks down on you. We have (or at least should have) the right to be machmir on ourselves without being accused of “hating”, “shunning”, or forming an “exclusive club”. Seriously, we’re not all that evil.
Health – “Aries – Your last paragraph is so true. (The one addressed to Dovy.) Unfortunately it’s getting worse. I just read that a certain yeshiva is now requiring other people to monitor internet usage in other people’s homes. There is no privacy anymore. Many people are looking to drive rifts between members of the klal -saying if you don’t conform -you aren’t frum. (And of course, you don’t belong in our yeshiva.)… The sinah from one shomer shabbos yid to another seems to be growing at an alaming rate!”
I highly doubt there are “many people” saying “if you don’t conform -you aren’t frum. (And of course, you don’t belong in our yeshiva.)” It is perfectly reasonable for a yeshiva to only want boys on a certain level of frumkeit in their yeshiva. And it is also perfectly reasonable for somebody to only want their children to be around one type of person, so that they will not learn hashkafos that they do not approve of. However, that does not necessarily mean that these people do not think that others are frum, or that they hate these others, as I explained above to aries.
Moderators – I am disappointed that such blatant disregard for the previous generations was allowed on this forum.
lesschumras – First of all, watch what you call a myth. A little respect, please! It always intrigued me that many of the people who bash the “frummies” tend to speak so disparagingly of (or even show blatant disrespect to) the Rabbonim, Midrashim, Minhagim, and in general any part of Judiasim that they do not not fully at the first glance. I think it says a thing or two about their commitment to Judiasim in general, don’t you?
Secondly, as Health mentioned, the yetzer hara for avodah zorah is no longer around, so we cannot fathom how strong it was. There’s the famous story of the Rebbi who mocked King Menashe for his dedication to avodah zorah, and then Menashe came to him in a dream and said something like “if you would have been alive in those days, you would have run after avodah zorah all day”.
“If they were o holy, why does the Gemorra spen so much time duscussing theft, shady business dealings etc?”
Please. The Gemora did not only discus cases that were brought to the courts: quite the contrary, they went through every obscure case they could think of so future generations would know what to do no matter what came up.
PY – “The only problem with that is that people see animals in operation all the time and know they can be ferocious. Nobody that I know has ever seen a sheid, or even described what harmful things they do, or how they go about doing those things. Nobody has ever even given an example of any damage that we could not explain through purely physical means, such that we would have to look for some other cause.”
I believe most shitos hold that sheidim are no longer around today. The explanation I heard for this was that when the koach ha’tahorah (navim, open neisim, etc) was diminshed, the koach ha’tumah (sheidim, kishuf, etc) was similarly diminished to keep things balanced.
oomis1105 – “When we say Eilu V’Eilu we are acknowledging that Hashem gave the T”CH the authority to pasken as they see fit… They cannot both be right at the bottom line.”
Again, do you have a source for this? Or did you just make this explanation up because you don’t understand the other one?
“MW13, I do not chalilah look down upon anyone who is ultra frum, machmir or whatever you wish to call it.”
“I know many areas that I need to work on, but it is because I am clearly NOT following the halacha properly (like being nichshal in Loshon Hara), not because I am doing the right thing, but think I will be better if I work on myself and adopt stricter guidelines to follow. When we do that we are actually CHAS V’SHOLOM diminishing the Torah, by implying that it is not good enough as is.”
What?! How is making gedarim to protect the halacha showing disrespect?! And how can you possibly say that making gedarim is wrong, when it is clearly suggested in the first mishnahof Pirkei Avos?!
What?! I quote: “people who are machmir look upon the rest of us no-goodniks who are merely following the Torah, as lesser Yidden… It is a singular gaiveh… you have regarded yourself with gaivah”
“I see the kulos as following the Torah as Hashem instructed us to follow it.”
I see kulos as meeting the requirements of halacha, and chumros as exceeding the minimum requirements.
“The very fact that you feel compelled to respond to what I write, shows how you feel.”
Huh? Shows that I feel what?
I agree with sof davar hakol nishma: I would not object to general pictures, but personal pictures are,in my opinion, inappropriate.
Deliberately_Esoteric – Well said. We often get so caught up in doing our hishtadlus in this world that we forget that at the end of the day, Hashem is the only One who controls what will happen.
Feif Un – Not my point. All I was saying is that it’s not universally accepted that the gezirah was only on liquid milk, so ask your posek what to do.
PY – “Yes, clearly the Rambam is lsheetoso. If he believes sheidim don’t exist, then the only way he can explain those gemaros is to say they are not-literal.”
No, he simply translates the word sheid differently in each case. For instance, I once learned a gemora that said that if a sheid gave hasrah (warning) to somebody and there were aidim, he’s chayiv. The Rambam in that case writes that the Gemora is referring to voice from a source that is not visible (ie somebody hiding behind a wall).
“Possibly the belief in demons was a fear that people had in earlier times. Before people began to understand that disease was caused by germs, genetics or other natural causes, possibly it was common that great fear of unknown or supernatural beings existed because they were thought to be a cause.”
Wow, talk about controversial. But there are stories in the Gemora of amoraim actually fighting off sheidim, so it’s rather hard to say sheidim were a figment of their imagination.
“What disturbs me is that many of the non-Jewish demons had the same names as the Jewish ones.”
Maybe they got the names from us?
“I find it troubling that these concepts have entered Yiddishkeit when they seem like Avoda Zara, and pagan beliefs. Don’t frum Jews believe that Hashem runs the show, period?”
Again, nobody is saying that sheidim can do things without Hashem’s approval/instruction. I always thought that they operated like a wild animal: a ferocious, monstrous creature that can tear you limb from limb. After all, just because there are wild animals doesn’t mean that Hashem CH”V isn’t running the show, does it?
oomis1105 – “To someone who is strictly C”Y, C”ST food is almost like tarfus.”
Not necessarily. Many people only hold CY as a chumra, and are not always so makpid on it. For instance, some eat powdered milk, some eat CS when it’s difficult to get CY, and most eat things made with kailim used for CS.
Pashuteh Yid – “It would be a terrible shame that frum people could never enjoy the beauty of the sand and ocean, otherwise.”
That may be true, but it is not an adequate reason to do something halachicly questionable. (I am not saying that one should not go to the beach later or earlier than everybody else, only that this last statement has no bearing on the discussion.)
“In addition, those who jog in the summer know that very often it is simply too hot except along the water where there is a constant cool sea-breeze blowing.”
Well than either don’t go jogging or brave the hear, but the halacha is non-negotiable.
“Where I used to live, there was a major street along a river with a jogging path, and the joggers there probably were worse dressed than any beach. What is the halacha in that case?”
I believe there is a Gemora that says that if one has two possible ways to get somwhere, and one he knows he will pass by inappropriately dressed women and one he won’t, he must take the other path even if it takes longer.
“So the question is what must the chances be that something inappropriate will come along in order to make one avoid an activity. 1%, 50%, 100%?”
I would imagine it’s about 50, but then again I’m no posek. So as always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should be asked to your LOR.
gavra_at_work – I agree that there are several different types of chumros. However, I would split them up slightly differently:
The first category would be a chumra due to a lack of clarity of which shita we follow halacha li’maseh. There are several sub-groups to this category: Not relying on a generally accepted kula (for example, cholov stam), or being choshaish for rishonim that the Shulchan Orach/Rema didn’t paskan like (not relying on an eruv).
The second category would be gedarim that may not be halavha, but are there to stop you from being over on the halacha. (Note: this does not include gedarim set up by the Rabbonim, because these are now halacha.)
The third category would be chumros that aren’t really chumros at all, but are things that we feel that Hashem would want us to do.
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oomis1105 – “The Torah shebichsav and the Torah sheb’al Peh are both m’Sinai. One Rov disagreeing with another, seems to not be, though the inyan they are discussing is m’Sinai. When we say . Hashem only gave ONE p’sak of what we need to do. Assur, Mutar.”
Do you have a source for that? And what exactly do you mean when you say “Eilu V’eilu divrei Elokim Chayim, it is their words”?
“If two or 10 rabbanim cannot get a consensus of what the definite law is, then what they are arguing is their own personal (albeit, very learned and authoritative)INTERPRETATION of what Hashem’s Ratzon is. They cannot ALL be right at the same time, much as we give lip service to that idea.”
And some would say that bechirah and hashgacah pratis cannot BOTH be true, much as we give lip service to that idea. Because it’s impossible for something to be true if don’t understand it, right? Who cares that Rabbonim through the generations have told us that it is – what do they know?!
“As to chumros – my ONE AND ONLY concern is that people who are machmir look upon the rest of us no-goodniks who are merely following the Torah, as lesser Yidden. Do not bother to deny it. It is a singular gaiveh that I have seen over and over again, even here in the CR.”
As to kulos – one of my primary concerns is that people who are meikel look upon the rest of us frummies who are not taking chances with the halacha, as nasty, “holier-than-thou”nics who look down on everybody else. Do not bother to deny it. It is a singular generalization that I have seen over and over again, as exemplified by the post above me.
oomis1105 – “Finding your soulmate is more than “nice.” It is a biological and spiritual imperative.”
That may be true, but that doesn’t make it a mitzva.
While it is true that there is no need for a teenager to have a phone, it is the norm in today’s society and not giving it to them will often put undue stress on the parent-child relationship. That said, giving a child a phone with internet is inexcusable and downright stupid, and monitoring who they are talking to/texting is also highly advisable.
I would definitely have to agree with sof davar hakol nishma: Do you have a Rebbi/Rav who you feel understands you? If yes, you should probably talk to them (if you haven’t already), and if not now would be a good time to get one!