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“LessChumras writes: So, an Apikores is someone who disagrees with the Satmar Rav on Zionism?
Myfriend responds: “No one said that. See the 4 enumerated reasons from Teshuvos Divrei Yoel for the reasons of that determination.”
Hmmm, I am almost certain that the Teshuvos Divrei Yoel was written by the Satmar Rav… “
Yes, it was. The point I believe myfriend was trying to make is that the Satmar Rav had several valid reasons to consider Rav Kook an apikores, and did not just call him an apikores because he disagreed with him.
First of all, I was quoting from the original post by so right, so your questions should be addressed to him. Nonetheless, I will try to answer you as he might:
“1) You have not given an operative definition of the word Ruach Hakodesh. Please tell us exactly how to tell the difference between a sefer that was written bRuach Hakodesh, and one that wasn’t.”
I am not sure that is possible. After all, its not like its going to say it in the inside of the cover.
“2) Your statement “they get a certain level of siyata dishmaya” does not help very much. How can we tell what level they received?”
I believe so right said something to the effect of any Godol has Ruach Hakodesh. So it would appear that one can tell if Ruach Hakodesh is in play or not by looking at the author, but necessarily by looking at the actual text.
“2A) Did Isaac Newton get Siyata Dishmaya when he wrote down the 3 laws of motion, or was it a case of kochi v’otzem yadi. Assuming it was the former, are you saying he had Ruach Hakodesh?”
Well, technically speaking anybody who does anything has Siyata Di’Shimaya, and I’m not sure exactly where one would draw the line… looks like we’ll have to wait till so right wakes up for this one.
“3) I assume from your other statements that writing Bruach Hakodesh does not literally mean G-d told him every word, as you say it can even be wrong but still be Ruach Hakodesh.”
Yes, that would appear to be the case.
I never understood this theory that if playing shtick with the system is possible, it means it’s OK. If they say don’t do it, it means don’t do it, whether you technically can or not!
Note: this is not to say that snapfish necessarily says this isn’t allowed, as ICOT showed. Although I somehow doubt this is what they had in mind…
I hear what you’re saying. However, I think it’s not worth pointing out physical beauty in general, rather we should pass on the attitude that physical beauty is of little, if any, significance. This attitude is best expressed by not talking about the physical at all.
paschabchochma: You’re very welcome.
“I’m thinking about how to avoid making a chilul Hashem in this way.”
Yeah, I’m trying to figure out how to explain it to them… maybe just say that one is not allowed to write during this time, and until now you weren’t sure if typing is writing so you finally got around to asking you Rabbi who said it’s OK.
oomis1105: Sorry, my spellchecker caught it so i assumed it wasn’t a real word. I stand corrected.
Moq: Well said, great post. Also, since you brought it up: I find it ironic that many who bash boys for being too into a girl’s size/looks will have nothing to say of the common practice of asking a boy’s height. Shouldn’t they be equally distasteful?
aries2756:
“I think children need to hear their fathers tell their mothers that they are beautiful. Fathers need to say it out loud. They need to say to their wives and to their children “look how beautiful imah is” even when she is not dressed up for a chasunah, even when she is not wearing make-up, even when she is not looking her best.”
I don’t know, that sort of establishes attractiveness as something important in a spouse. Probably better to complement her on her middos.
Health: Touche. I should’ve said “some of us may be too into looks, money, etc.”
“My point is that each “side” has things that aren’t great and until we realize and accept that (not the sins), we could try to get along.”
Couldn’t agree more. In order to get along, we need to stop looking at the things some of any group besides us does wrong, and start looking at the things they do right that we can learn from.
In that spirit, we can all learn from:
the fire of the Chassish davening
the intensity of the Yeshivish learning
the uncompromising standards of the Charaedim
the sensitivity towards others of the MO
Anybody have any more?
“Isn’t there such a thing as if you do something 3 times, it’s a shvuah?”
That’s only a dvar mitzva, or something that there is a halachic reason to do. However, since your Rav has said that there is no inyun not to type, you not typing was not a dvar mitzvah, and therefore I would assume there was no shvuah. However, as aries2756 said, if you truly have a problem you should consult your Rav.
“If I told the secular ppl I work with that I try to not type on CHM, then got a psak from my Rav that I can, should I do it or not, should I bother to explain it or just let them assume I’m less strict than I used to be?”
I would imagine that if you don’t tell them anything they’ll assume you simply don’t keep that halacha anymore. Therefore, I would assume you should explain the situation to them (although I’m not sure how exactly how you would do that) to avoid a chillul Hashem. However, as always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should go to your LOR.
“Is it ok to type something if I know my secular coworker will probably print it out for themselves?”
Hmmm… that sounds suspiciously like a halacha li’maseh shailah, one of those things that should be asked to your LOR.
I fully understand those who are wary of marrying/marrying their kids off to children of BT. Parenting is taught by example, and BTs (due to no fault of their own) have little to no knowledge of how to run a frum home. They can be and often are wonderful parents, but they’re starting from scratch when it comes to frum parenting. This is probably the reason why it is more common for children of BTs to go off the derech: the parenting in a BT home is a first attempt, with no previous training.
Caveat: I said I understand those who are wary of marrying/marrying their kids off to children of BT; not that I feel this is the correct way of doing things. I do not.
charliehall:
“Rav Yedid may have been of the stature to criticize Rav Kook. Nobody who comments here is!”
Nobody has claimed otherwise.
“The Eighth Principle is highly problematic; and Chazal stated that there is a different number of words in the Torah than there actually are, that we have lost the mesorah for the exact number of words and letters in the Torah, and join with a few Rishonim suggest a few post-Mosaic modifications (none of which have any halachic significance).”
I have a vague recollection of this Gemora; however, I seem to remember it saying that we don’t know if certain passukim are one passuk or two, if certain words are one word or two, etc, without really changing the Torah per say. I don’t remember anything about letters. Do you know where this Gemora is so I can check it up?
“The Third Principle is not accepted today by most frum Jews, who recite a prayer to angels every selichot. (I personally skip that prayer.) Prof. Marc Shapiro has more details in his book.”
The Third Ani Maamim is that Hashem has no body: I’m fairly certain that is accepted by most, if not all, jews today. You probably meant to say the Fifth Ani Maamim, that Hashem is the only One who it is fitting to daven to. However, one could argue that “Machnisai Rachamim” is not “davening” to the Maluchim per say, as we are not asking them to help us, only to get Hashem to help us (much as we ask tzaddikim to help us invoke Hashem’s mercy).
Pashuteh Yid:
“the whole purpose of the Torah is menschlachkeit, and nothing more”
Considering that you claim to know “the purpose of the Torah”, would you care to bring a source?
“Somebody disagrees with Rav Kook, so that makes Rav Kook an apikorus?”
Actually, so right specifically said Rav Kook is not an apikores. I quote: “A similar sentiment was expressed by Rav Yosef Yedid ZTL regarding Rav Kook: “Even though there is a way to judge him a little favorably, that he himself is not a Min and Apikores”
“BTW, if one is an apikorus for not believing that a certain perush was written bRuach Hakodesh, it would certainly help to have a definition of Ruach Hakodesh.”
Once again, I quote: “Ruach HaKodesh does not mean that everything someone says is right. Even Chazal were disproven, which is why we have “hava amina”s in the gemora. It means that they get a certain level of siyata d’shmaya.” Please, take the time to read something before you blast it!
Josh31:
“Why do we seem to know more what exactly constitutes Apikorsos than earlier generations knew?”
Actually, I’m pretty sure most of the sources quoted here are from the earlier generations…
“Whatever Ruach Hakodesh is, it can never be put on the same level as Nevuah (prophecy).”
Did anybody say it is?
“when bochurim do not wear hats, jackets, and white shirts, there are many people who look upon them as less heilig than themselves.”
I don’t know if people think that those who dress differently are “less heilig” as much as they think that they simply have a different hashkafos ha’chaim (which is a pretty fair assumption).
“Your analogy is not quite… well… analagous.”
I believe the word you’re looking for is “fitting”. Although analagous does kind of have a nice ring to it…
WIY: Well said. This joke was distasteful at best, laitzunos at worst.
oomis1105:
“WIY, c’mon – it was funny”
That may be true, but just because something is funny doesn’t mean it’s OK to say it.
“As to what goes on “out there,” at simchas, I doubt much of anything is going on except for people being m’sameach with the baalei simcha.”
Here we go again…
When there is mixed seating, people often look at people of the opposite gender in way that they shouldn’t. This is bad. Very bad.
Ben Torah: I wouldn’t go so far as to accuse this joke of “making of Daas Torah”(paraphrased). I think it was just done in bad taste.
charliehall:
“The emphases in the frum community on physical attraction, and on money, regarding possible marriage partners is worse than among the goyim. We should be ashamed of ourselves.”
Speak for yourself. We may not all be perfect angels, but to make such an extreme generalization like that is really pushing it.
Health:
“There used to be 5 Mems people looked for in a shidduch -1. Mamone (Money), 2. Maareh (Looks), 3. Mispacha (Family yichus), 4. Moach (Brains), and 5. Midos (Character traits). I guess now we are down to the first three or two. “
Who’s we?
In general, we frum jews tend to be our own biggest critics. This is usually a good thing, but it does have the side effect of magnifying our faults in our own eyes. We focus so much on what we are doing wrong, to the point that we make it out to be much worse than it actually is. We may be too into looks, money, etc, but that certainly doesn’t make us anywhere near as bad as the goyim. We have plenty of things we need to work on, but I really think we have ourselves underrated.
Yanky:
“Yes, it IS a problem that a Ben Torah cannot think for himself. My own Rav is overwhelmed with nahrisha kashes (partly) because of this.”
Yes, I agree that bnei Torah should know the halachos on their own. However, the problem is in this lack of knowledge, not in the fact that they consult daas Torah when they do not know what to do.
“there are times when seichel has to take precedence over the halachah as written in Shulchan Aruch”
I’m not sure exactly how the added words “as written in Shulchan Aruch” change your comment. Care to elaborate? Or at least to name me such a case? Until then, my previous comment still stands.
“call me an apikores if you like”
No, an apikores is (among other things) somebody who denies the validity of the Torah. You surely agree that the Torah was given by Hashem, yet you appear (to the best of my understanding) to feel that one does not need to follow the Torah when one does not feel like it. This may make you somewhat of an idiot (if you believe the Torah is from Hashem, how can you possibly qualify what Hashem said? Do you think your smarter than God?!), not strictly “religious”, and a whole host of other things, but it doesn’t make you an apikores.
Ben Torah: Hmmm… suspicious indeed…
apushatayid:
Apparently, you were right except for one small detail: the FullaBulla dynasty appears to have originated in mamashtakah, not Transylvania.
Yanky55:
“One of the biggest problems with yeshivos today, is that they are producing young men (or sheep) who can’t figure out the most simple issue for themselves. For every little thing they have to run to the Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva.”
Yes, what a terrible problem. People consulting Rebbeim and Roshei Yeshivos. Terrible.
I’m sorry, did I miss something? What exactly is the problem here?
“There are times when a Rav is not available and it is critical that benei Torah be able to make some decisions for themselves.”
Yes, it is crucial that bnei Torah know what the basic halachos are. However, anything more serious can and should be asked to a Rav.
“The Torah is NOT black and white. There are many grey areas. Here’s an example. Lying. The Torah says “Midvar sheker tirchok”. According to you it’s black and white that if you are a guest at someone’s house and you think a certain dish is disgusting, you should say so (if the host asks you). Common sense dictates that YOU SHOULD LIE AND SAY IT IS DELICIOUS. I teach my kids all the time that there are situations when it is okay to lie. So you see, it is NOT black and white at all.”
Of course one should not tell their host that a dish is disgusting: the halacha clearly states that one can and should lie for the sake of sholom.
“There are times when seichel has to take precedence over the halacha.”
Not in Orthodox Judaism, there isn’t. Ever. Period.
The seichel can dictate what the halacha should be under x conditions, but nobody and nothing can ever CH”V “take precedence over the halacha”. The entirety of Yiddishkeit is to obey the Torah, and nothing else. If you don’t do that, I’m not entirely sure what gives you the right to consider yourself frum.
apushatayid: Got it. We’ll have to see what mamashtakah, the one who quoted this Rebbe (more than once, if I’m not mistaken), has to say to that.
myfreind: Well said.
WIY: You’re very welcome, and I’m glad you agree.
Sacrilege:
“To me the bigger question is: When did the people who dress “Yeshivish” grant themselves the right to look down on everyone else who doesnt?”
Two reactions:
1) Wow, what a generalization. Not, “When did some of the people who dress “Yeshivish”…”. Nope. When did “the people who dress “Yeshivish””. All of them.
2) Why do you think that they all do?
Yanky55: Please do not refer to things said by menmor learned than me and you as “nonsense”. We may disagree with him, but that doesn’t mean we can’t show some respect.
justsomeguy: Please show me where the Torah says “black & white” that one must eat fleishigs on Yom Tov.
apushatayid: I’m sorry, did you just say that a Rebbe is “full of bull****”?!
Oh, and one more thing:
“Cheating on taxes is a complex subject (perhaps its complications lie in the negius of the people making arguments).”
According to that logic:
How to treat those who have a tayvah for for toevah is also a complex subject: perhaps this too is because of the negius of those involved.
However, until we have grounds for these baseless accusations, we should probably just take all argument presented for their logic value alone, not judge them based on imagined motives.
I would have to say its the girl/girl’s father’s fault. If you/your daughter can’t live with x conditions, why on earth would you agree to them in the first place?! If you agree to something you have no intention of fulfilling, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
squeak:
First of all, thank you for your clear and intelligent comments. We may disagree, but it’s nice to know we can do so intelligently.
It is an inarguable fact that you owe taxes to the government: however, the money is still not yet theirs. And as I said before, halachicly, the only reason one is michuyav to pay up a debt owed to a goy is because it will be a chillul Hashem if you don’t. (which just goes to show that not making a chillul Hashem is a halacha, not just a nice thing to do) If the goy would forget that you owe him the money, you are not mechuyav to pay him back since no chillul Hashem will take place. This is the case here, since Uncle Sam has no idea you ever owed him anymore than you claim you do. Again, it is still assur because of sheker, but it’s just not geneiva. And btw, I didn’t make this up; I heard it in a halacha li’maseh siur from a prominent poissik.
As for the argument that not paying taxes causing others to pay more, I simply don’t think that is factually true. The government does not charge taxes based on how much money it does or does not have: if it did, we wouldn’t be stuck with a 13+ trillion dollar national debt now, would we?
Oh, and your analogy about the old lady and the lawyer is very fitting, perhaps more than you realize. You see, in a case where a goy hands you back extra change, you are not michuyav al pi halacha to return it. It may be a kiddush Hashem and a nice thing to do, but it’s not a chiyuv.
Theft
1.
the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.
2.
an instance of this.
3.
Archaic . something stolen.
(from dictionary.com)
Therefore, how can not paying taxes be theft? How am I taking money that belongs to somebody else if it’s my own money I’m keeping?
You are entitled to follow your Rav, but so am I. And my Rav holds cheating on your taxes is sheker, but not geniavah.
As a Rebbi of mine once said, any promise you hear from R’ Chaim Kaneivsky is bi’chezkas sheker…
WellInformedYid: Well said. I’ve often wondered if the Gedolim who give their haskamos to these tzedakos know just how the tzedakos sometimes portray it…
bombmaniac:
Like myfreind, this is the first time I have heard this theory before, and it like you I highly doubt it is true. However, I belive the Ramchal in the Derech Hashem says that after Moshiach will be Olam Haba, where we will be entirely spiritaul, followed by Techiyas Hameisim when we will get new bodies. Perhaps this is where the rumor started.
HashemLovesMe:
“we are not even supposed to think about such things.”
Do you have a source for that?
aries2756: You’re very welcome.
SJSinNYC:
“mw13, when you don’t pay taxes, you are also stealing from Jews.”
Huh? How?
“You are also stealing by using services provided by your tax money and not paying for them.”
Seeing as these services are also available to people who do not pay any taxes (legally), I am unconvinced paying taxes is necessarily a prerequisite for receiving government services.
“Honestly, its this thought process that is DESTROYING our generation.”
What, looking at things with a clear, halcahic view? Then I’ll be more than happy to see our generation “DESTROYED” any day.
“Theft is ok huh?”
Of course not. I never said it was. All I said was that not paying taxes is not halachicly theft, a point which you have yet to come up with an argument against.
“For every dollar in taxes you aren’t paying, you are stealing a % of that money from millions and millions of people, many of whom are frum.”
Again, how is not giving my money to the government stealing from millions of people?
“I’m pointing out that people rail so hard against one toeva but neglect another. Because one seems so foriegn to them (homosexuality) and the other is “not so bad.” Vomit.”
Who ever said that stealing is “not so bad”? Stealing is most definitely assur. And cheating on taxes is also assur, as I explained in my last comment. But cheating on taxes still isn’t stealing.
WellInformedYid
“Please let me know what we do right visavis our parents and grandparents generations, I’m trying to make sure we live on the same planet?”
I quote a post by lkwdfellow from the thread “is there some way we can get along?”:
“The Satmar Rebbe, Rav Aron, shlit”a, spoke at a very large BMG event in Lakewood. And – shortly afterwards – Rav Malkiel, shlit”a, spoke at a large siyum in Satmar (in Monroe, I think). This past Elul, the lakewood Tomchei Shabbos couldn’t get reduced priced chickens for their sale to Klai Kodesh (and even planned to cancel the whole sale bacause of that) & Rav Malkiel travelled to Monroe to speak to the Rebbe – who arranged KJ chickens for them at reduced pricing.
Rav Pinchos Lifshitz, Yated editor, a talmid of the Litvisher Yeshiva system, was the trailblazing askan in the Rubashkin saga. He went above & beyond to help & created a huge Achdus amongst Klal Yisroel. That’s a great example of bridging the gap!!!”
Would you say these are not things that we are doing right?
I’ve heard that in any case where you are uncomfortable to the point that would leave your room at home, you may leave the sukkah. However, I’m no poissik so always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should go to your LOR.
artchill: I did not, and do not, claim that the halacha protects abusers. However, I take offense at your casual dismissal of those frum therapists who “ask sheilos”. You make it sound as though we should follow the halacha only in cases where it commands what we already want to hear: but if it says not to report abuse to the secular authorities (which again, I’m not saying it does), then we should CH”V do what we feel is “right” over the halacha. As a frum jew, I firmly believe that the halacha must take precedence over every other factor, be it emotional or legal, when making decisions. Period.
PBA: Glad you agree.
PY: Good point. As I mentioned in another thread, too often we get so caught up in all that is wrong with “today’s generation” that we forget to take note of the many things we do right.
Sorry, meant to write “we forget to take note of the many things we do right.”
SJSinNYC: That’s talking about stealing, and not paying taxes isn’t stealing (WAIT there’s more coming nobody go into hysteria).
According to halacha, one absolutely may not steal from goyim. However, the only reason one has to pay up a debt to a goy is chillul Hashem: if the goy would forget about the loan, you would not be muchuyav to pay it back (it may be kiddush Hashem and a good idea, but it’s not a chiyuv). And not paying taxes falls into the category of not paying a debt, not stealing (after all, it’s my money that I’m keeping, not theirs). It’s still chillul Hashem, sheker,and assur, but it’s not halachicly stealing.
BP Totty: Totally agree. I have become far more tolerant of people with different opinions/hashkafos (since joining the CR.
aries2756: It’s not so much what you said as much as it as how you said it. You could have said “I think one of the main problems is when people judge too quickly” instead of “Its the same old “holier than thou” attitude and the “judgmental” attitude that Yiddin seem to have. Instead of understanding our obligation of “v’ahavta l’reiacha k’mocha” we are always busy with what’s right about us and wrong about the next guy. We lack the common aspects of respect and therefore feel it is OK to knock our fellow Jew.” Saying an attitude is wrong is fine: saying people with this attitude are wrong is already borderline. Talk about the issues, not the people.
popa_bar_abba
“Well, if
A. The problem really is new to the current generation, and,
B. We accept as a premise that people are born good and are then corrupted, and,
C. Since we are talking about kids, it is unfair to assign the majority of the blame to them,
Then:
It seems most logical that the people who are causing the problem are the current group of parents and leaders.
If so, they don’t really deserve respect.”
I disagree. The Torah says we must respect our parents/elders/Rabbonim, whether they deserve it or not. Whether or not they will actually get respect may be a different story, but we’re still supposed to give it to them.
blinky: Very true. If parents don’t show any respect for authority (Rabbonim, Rabbeim, etc) than how can they expect their kids to? Children must be taught respect (along with just about everything else) by example.
truth4ruth: Great point.
aries2756: Interesting idea…
artchill:
“BAD IDEA! The organization would be ripe for more abuse. The organization will eventually dictate which frum psychologists are eligible to be used. (AKA: Frum psychologists who won’t ruffle the community status quo on abuse and will ask sheilos instead of reporting threats to life and limb).”
Yeah what are they thinking, following the halacha? What do they think this is, a real religion? Sheesh, people these days…
In all seriousness, I know being totally mevatel daas to the Torah and following everything it says can be challenging at times: but is a little respect too much to ask for?
ramateshkolian:
“I was actually going to open up a Tzedaka fund for people who need therapy. I had an idea for a system, got rabbanim and therapists involved, but I couldn’t do the fundraising.”
Out of curiosity, what was the system?
Moq:
“Tuition at BY Seminary in BP is about $6,000 a year. The other Brooklyn seminaries are similar. “poppa bar abba” seems to be a virulently anti chasid which is OK with me. You can go ahead and pay $40,000 a year for your daughter in seminary while I pay $6,000 for the same education plus the additional satisfaction of knowing on a daily basis that she and her friends are acting like fine yidishe maidlech. You can allow your highly Torah true values Israeli seminary educated daughter to go out with bunches of boys all over the city trying to find Mr. Brisker Right while our daughters get engaged to a nice chasidish bucher who will sit and learn in kollel for a year or two. Your daughter will finally let you meet the guy after 7-8 dates while you don’t sleep nights worrying. After 2 dates and my daughter saying yeah he looks good, I’ll ask my rebbe and if IYH he says yes brucha v’hatzluche, we’ll make a l’chaim. And all this by the way comes from my yeshivish friends who say they envy my derech. “
This is my all time favorite post at YWN!
Gevaltdike! Hail Chassidim and the Rebbeuh! Brucha V’hatzlucha!”
Considering the great points you tend to make, I feel like I must have missed something in this post. Surely there must be something more intelligent here than intolerant and immature mockery?
aries2756:
“Its the same old “holier than thou” attitude and the “judgmental” attitude that Yiddin seem to have…”
Talking about judgmental…
Moq: Well said. We must differentiate between the Modern Orthodox and those who are Orthodox in name only. That said, anybody who bases their actions and hashkafos off Torah and Daas Torah deserves respect in my book.
SJSinNYC:
“we should look within to see what kind of toeva we are doing (like business ethics).”
Whoa. Cheating on taxes is definitely wrong, but it is no toeva. That title is granted to but a few aveiros by the Torah, and I don’t think sheker is one of them.
lkwdfellow: Excellent post. Too often we get so caught up in all that is wrong with “today’s generation” that we forget to take not of the many things we do right.
Feif Un: It makes no difference what the origin of an article of clothing is; the point is what it is associated with today. Today if somebody would wear a bekeshah and shtreimel on Purim I would imagine most people would assume that he is dressing up as a chassid, not as a 16th century polish noble. The idea is that we should have a unique mode of dress and language, one that nobody else uses today; not that we need to build our own ones from scratch. I have heard that the mogen david was not originally a Jewish symbol: does that mean that it is any less a Jewish symbol today?
aries2756:
“So is kibud av’vem, so is not to have kinah, so is al tignov, so are the other 7 which are the top 10. So I think we have taken this discussion to the limit and have made it sound like the worst aveirah sitting on the shoulders of women which it is not.”
I was always under the impression tzniyus was the defining mitzva, if you will, of a bas Torah, (much as learning Torah is of a ben Torah) and therefore deserving of special attention and caution.
“There are many mitzvas in the Torah and WE are all not perfect and WE don’t get to point our fingers at others for their lack of adherence and WE are all at fault somehow and somewhere… WE all have a mitzvah to work on ourselves BEFORE we point fingers at others and point out their errors, as long as there are areas in our own selves that need improvement we have no right to point fingers on others imperfections.”
As I mentioned before, this is simply not the case. In case you missed it, I repeat:
There is a passuk that says “ho’chaich tocheach es amisecha v’lo sisah alov chait”: “rebuke you shall rebuke my people, and there will not be a sin on you”. However, if you could have stopped an aveira and CH”V did not do so, the aveira goes onto your cheshbon as well. If you see somebody doing something wrong, you are mechuyav to correct them. Now, obviously this must be done in a way that will not push them away, but first and foremost it must be done. Li’mashal, if you saw somebody unintentionally drinking poison, would you say “it is not my business” and walk away?
This whole “mind your own business concept” is of western origin and completely foreign to yiddishkeit. We say “kol yisrael areivim zeh la’zeh”, in both gashmiyus and ruchniyus. There is a famous mashal of a person who is on a cruise ship and hears a loud sound in the room next door. He walks into the room and sees a man drilling a hole into the floor! He screams “What are you doing, you’ll kill us all!” The man calmly replies “Excuse me, but this is my room, and I have the right to do whatever I want here!”
__________________________________________________
oomis1105: For future reference, if you begin a comment with a quote from somebody, that person will probably assume you addressing them unless you state otherwise.
“I would wait until another time when it is NOT Shabbos, and then simply talk about the Shabbos-approved lipsticks (in a casually brought up way), and how pretty they are, and how nice it is that someone came up with a way to wear lipstick on Shabbos that did not have any halachic problems associated with it.”
That also works.
Thanks for the warning.
My only concern with wearing a hat and jacket all day is that then they lose their status of beged ha’miyuchad li’tefillah. Other than that, I have no real opinion on the matter: is one wants to wear a hat and jacket all day, kol hakavod, and one who doesn’t is certainly not doing anything wrong. I don’t see much of an issue either way.
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oy vey kids these days:
“show me in halacha where it says there’s a chiyuv to wear an italian style fedora and an american style jacket at all times and i’ll do it. anything to be more jewish…”
No, there is no halacha that one must wear a hat and jacket all day, and I don’t think anybody is claiming there is. However, there is indeed an inyan to be as “jewish” as possible. We are the mamleches kohanim v’goy kadosh, and we should show our pride at the fact. We know that bnei Yisroel were redeemed from Mitzrayim because they had different clothes, langauge, and names from everybody else: It’s occurred to me more than once that if the criteria for getting out of the current golus was the same, the only ones that would make it would be the Chassdim, the Chareidim, and maybe some of the really Yeshivish…
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SJSinNYC: Depends who you ask.
WellInformedYid:
“If someones life is in danger or someone is in danger of doing an aveirah you save the persons life. Life comes before everything.”
In 610/613 cases, correct. However, that certainly does not mean that by saving somebody’s life you have saved their neshama.
ANONYM613: Well said, great point.
oomis1105: I never said there should be a “tznius police”, nor did I suggest that anybody should “accost” anybody else in any way. Actually, I specifically said that giving mussar “must be done in a way that will not push them away”. You have the right to disagree with me: but please, first take the time to make sure you understand what I’m saying! Obviously mussar must be given with saichel, in a way it will be accepted. Ie, start a conversation with the person and then mention “oh, is that fresh lipstick you’re wearing? I was always under the impression that that was a halachic shailah, but of course I’m no Rav. However, you might want to ask one.”
Helpful: Agreed. However, if somebody doesn’t appreciate the mussar, she won’t listen, and if anything will be less receptive to mussar in the future.
rebdoniel: Good point.
WellInformedYid:
“If you save someones guf you save their neshamah as well use logic!”
Really? If you save somebody’s life you stop them from going to gehinom? Guess my logic is down today.
“I don’t know of one mainstream Orthodox Rav who would say it is ok for a man to hand out cards about Tznius to women.”
Well how many have you asked?
emoticon613: Well said, great point.
aries2756:
“Putting on lipstick and mascara is also assur on Shabbos but I see a lot of women who are definitely wearing fresh lipstick on Shabbos. Is it my place to go over and tell them that they are not allowed to do that? Absolutely not! Because for one thing it is not my business. For another thing, maybe they really didn’t learn it or didn’t apply what they learned to this issue, make-up. And thirdly, if I told them and they continued to do it, it is even a worse aveirah and I don’t want to be a part of that. Here is another example. I have been to the manicure spa many times when I have seen frum women in a rush get their hands and feet done at the same time by two different technicians. Now I was taught (yes in Kallah class by a very machmir teacher) that two people are not allowed to work on you at the same time, it is assur. Only in the case of a niftar or nifteres is more than one person allowed to work on them. That is why you might hear a parent reprimand if they are buttoning a child’s coat not to help them, only one person should do it. So back to my example, when the ladies want to rush me out and come at me two at a time I tell them I am not dead yet and only one of them can work on me at a time. They remember that when I come in but they ask me why the other religious ladies don’t say that to them. Is it my job to tell the other ladies they are wrong? Maybe they were never told what I was told. My mother would say “zei nisht gut’s farzorger”.
Ther is a passuk that says “ho’chaich tocheach es amisecha v’lo sisah alov chait”: “rebuke you shall rebuke my people, and there will not be a sin on you”. However, if you could have stopped an aveira and CH”V did not do so, the aveira goes onto your cheshbon as well. If you see somebody doing something wrong, you are mechuyav to correct them. Now, obviously this must be done in a way that will not push them away, but first and foremost it must be done. Li’mashal, if you saw somebody unintentionally drinking poison, would you say “it is not my business” and walk away?
This whole “mind your own business concept” is of western origin and completely foreign to yiddishkeit. We say “kol yisrael areivim zeh la’zeh”, in both gashmiyus and ruchniyus. There is a famous mashal of a person who is on a cruise ship and hears a loud sound in the room next door. He walks into the room and sees a man drilling a hole into the floor! He screams “What are you doing, you’ll kill us all!” The man calmly replies “Excuse me, but this is my room, and I have the right to do whatever I want here!”
yeshivabochur123:
“Does Yeshivas Ohr Reuven in Monsey have bocharim my age?”
Yes, Ohr Reuven has quit a few bochrim in their early 20s.
“What type of bocurim go there?”
All types. It’s a very warm and excepting environment, with solid learning and great guys.
“Also is it the type of place that would be open to my going to college one or two nights a week?”
Yes, there are several people there now who go to college part-time. You should check it out.
unknown: Yes, I’m fairly sure that you hav to light an extra candle from now on. However, as was pointed out above, all halacha li’maseh shailos should be asked to you LOR.
artchill: How do you explain the famous pasuk in Koheles “hasser kaas mi’libecha”, “banish anger from your hart”?
oomis: If we set a precedent for not allowing a religion full freedom due to their objectionable beliefs, we could very well be next. As I have already pointed out, our religion clearly states that anyone who converts out of our religion is stoned to death, and there’s always that old argument that we have with the christians (something about us killing their “god”). Some would probably find that objectionable, no?
Sacrilege: If you never asked your Rav a shailah, why do you think shaking hands is a “grey area”? Perhaps your Rav holds it is assur, period (as most do)? Just because something is in a “grey area” doesn’t mean we can just ignore it.
“IT WAS A MASHAL.”
Source?
“My teacher was very careful to point out that this was not meant to imply it was a must-do.”
I repeat: Is it a chiyuv? Of course not. Is it a good thing to do? Unquestionably.
“Her attitude and hashkafa, but not necessarily her actions, were to teach us something about personal modesty, to the point that even the “walls of a house” have feelings.”
Somebody’s actions are a reflection of their hashkafa, and their hashkafa is conveyed by their actions. If one is a good example, so is the other.
“someone does not have to be a Gemarah learner to hear something told and learn from it or have a personal insight from it. Don’t disparage that.”
You can have all the personal insights you want; but you cannot make up your own pashat in a Gemora you never read, use it to prove your own hashkafa, and expect people to accept that.
Helpful: “And no, NO ONE of stature disagrees with Reb Moshe that it is ASSUR to be friends with a girl. Period. End of discussion.”
I’m not sure what inter-gender friendships have to do with anything.