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Tzniyus, in many regards, follows what is and what is not considered dressing decently in the setting that one finds oneself. Obviously there are some lines that cannot be crossed no matter what, but after that it’s all relative. Dressing a certain way in an MO community may be fine and accepted, but dress the same way in a Chassidish community and you’re being inappropriately provocative.
Mod80:
Hah this is funny… you responding to my yet-unposted comment.
“basically what Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tzl said in answer to that same question posed to him”
Barush she’Kivanti. Do you know where?
Kasha:
I’m not saying what should or should not be done. I’m answering, to the extent of my knowledge on the subject, the question “What do boys look for in a girl?”
“I still believe that there must be some nefarious motive to be a bona fide apikorus, not just a matter of innocent beliefs that do not ever translate into actions.”
The pashtus of the Rambam is not like that. If you find me a source, then we can talk…
“Why did Avraham not daven for his son Yitzchok to try to save him from the Akeida the same way he davened for the chotim of Sdom? Was his son any less worthy?”
I think the difference is that by Sodom Hashem clearly said this was a punishment, but by the Akeida He simply stated it as a tziyvuy.
“Nevertheless, in the end, the maskana seems to clearly be like I have been writing here all along, that menschlachkeit is the ikar.”
Perhaps, but we still celebrate Avrahom’s willingness to sacrifice everything (including his reputation for mencshlichkeit throughout the world) in order to do Hashem’s will. We still beg Hashem, to this day, “just like Avrahom suspended his mercy from his only son, so may you suspend Your wrath from us…” (from the teffilah right after the Akeida, although I don’t have it front us me so it’s probably not exact). We extol Avrahom for suspending all sense of decency to do Hashem’s will: it seems to me that this is a clear proof the ultimate good is following Hashem, no matter what.
I’m with Sacrilege. A useful quote to know…
noitallmr: LOL!
Ofcourse:
“I think a pretty important link in this is some girls kow how to make a guy feel secure with her, and some dont. Its a magnetism. Some girls have great Midos and will make the best wives and mothers, probably more so than some who know how to put that magnetism on…”
You’re sure it’s not just looks?
WellInformedYid:
“Boys look for girls who are chilled. Plain and simple. Guys cant stand whiners, complainers, MASHGIACH TYPES, critics, overly emotional (cries over everything).”
Agreed. Also, from talking to guys currently “in the parsha”, I think one of the primary ways that guys rate their dates is according to how much “fun” they had. If the girl is easygoing, funny, etc. she’ll rank higher than one who’s too quite and serious. I’m not entirely convinced this system works, as it has little bearing on what type of mother a girl will be (which in my opinion should be the primary gauge), but it is what it is.
Although I suppose “consult you Posek” is technically more accurate than LOR, I think the vast majority of people will consult the same person no matter what you call him.
Pashuteh Yid:
Another question: if menschlichkeit was is be all and end all of Yiddishkeit, how do you explain the Akaedah? Why would Hashem tell Avrahom to suspend all menschlichkeit in the face of ratzon Hashem if ratzon Hashem is nothing but menschlichkeit?
No, I think the part of the passuk that says “this was the way of the generation of the flood” is going on “one for having children and one for marriage”, not back on “[Lemech] had two wives”.
oomis1105:
“Excuse me, have you even been reading the posts in the CR? Virtually every five minutes someone else is blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel. We were even quoted the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.”
I was referring to a comment that blames women for something without having a source for it. Come on, if they’re posted “virtually every five minutes” it should be a walk in the park to quote me quite a few comments “blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel”.
“the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.”
Yes, you should take up your lack of education with the school you went to. After all, don’t you just hate it when people cherry pick Gemoras?
“MW13 would like me to take this issue up with Hashem. Did Hashem say it was because of women’s excessive cosmetics that He was destroying the B”HM? If so, show me the EXACT source that says ther nevuah that these were HIS words and not conjecture on the part of someone who felt women wore too much makeup, and please direct me to all the miforshim on the subject, and I will not say another word.”
I find it highly disturbing that you demand a source in nevuah for everything. The Gemora clearly states why Hashem destroyed the Bais Hamikdash – why isn’t that good enough for you? Do you not believe the Gemora?
And how dare you accuse an Amora of saying this just because he “felt women wore too much makeup”?! Are you insinuating an Amora made up a reason that Bais Hamikdash was destroyed just to further his own agenda? Do you have no respect?
If you cannot or will not accept a clear statement from the Gemora, this discussion is pointless. I cannot prove a mathematical theory to you if you insist that one plus one is not two.
pascha bchochma:
“Just to clarify: the sun / moon comment was said tongue in cheek.”
Well that explains a lot.
“Zeh l’umas zeh, I figured that if you can blame me with cherry-picked chazals for the evils of the world.”
Whoa. I’m not blaming women “for the evils of the world”: the Churban happened for a number reasons, caused by all different people. I was trying to point out that if one of those causes was women using too much cosmetics, it certainly shows that this should not be taken lightly.
“Yes, we all know how girls are expected to somehow be a mother, wife, and hard worker who earns enough to support a family, unless lucky enough to have rich parents…”
As I said before, nobody got off easy in this world.
“I guess my point here is that we should each work on our own nisyonos, instead of trying to tell others what they think they should be doing.”
I disagree. I think this whole “mind your own business” attitude is solely from the western culture, and foreign to Yiddishkeit. And besides, it may be enlightening to hear about things we struggle with from people without negius on the subject.
“it was inappropriate for the men in this thread to tell us that wearing our (tzanua and tasteful) makeup is what’s preventing the geulah, just as it would be inappropriate for us to tell the males on this site that their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming.”
First of all, nobody ever said wearing “tzanua and tasteful makeup is what’s preventing the geulah”. That was specifically said about excessive makeup.
Second, what’s inappropriate about saying “the males on this site… their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming” (assuming you can prove it)? The truth is the truth, no matter who’s mouth it comes from.
Correction: That’s Etel bas Chana, not Etya Bas Chana.
Sacrilege: Never said it was. And I’m not entirely sure what “game” you’re referring to.
On re-reading my previous comment, I realized that Sacrilege was right, I was overly condensing. pascha bchochma, I apologize.
Sacrilege: I’m glad you agree. That said, there’s plenty of good reasons guys should be learning.
“I think you coulve made the same point without being condescending”
Yeah, I probably could’ve, but it comes across much better this way.
Once again, the names are:
Yaakov ben Sarah
Shimon Ben Chana,
Nosson Tzvi Ben Chana,
Miriam Bas Chana,
Yitzchok Eisick Ben Chana,
Etya Bas Chana
Must’ve missed it.
pascha bchochma:
“Absolutely it’s a two-way street. People implied that I am stopping Moshiach from coming by wearing makeup. Can you see why this would bother me?”
Of course I do. However, I still have the right to take issue with you claiming men are responsible for women’s mistakes.
“But I am bothered by the implications of this, not only on YWN, but from my male siblings who BH are good boys, encouraging an attitude of boys who just have to be “good enough” while women have to change and not focusing on working on themselves.”
Yes, we all know how girls are expected to learn for 9 hours a day from 11th or 12th grade until three or four years after high school, while boys spend maybe half that amount of time in school, both in hours per day and in total amount of years… oh wait! It’s the other way around! Silly me.
Seriously speaking, boys have things that they get pressured on too. Nobody got off easy in this world, as green as the grass on the other side may seem.
“*tries very hard to remain calm*”
I wish I was so successful 🙂
oomis1105:
“i just like playing devil’s advocate. 🙂
And you do it SO well!!!! :)”
Huh? Was that to me?
“to say the Beis Hamikdash was DESTROYED and we went into exile for that – well, I cannot accept that.”
I’m sorry: you “cannot accept” what an Amora said?! I’m sorry, I thought we were confining the parameters of this debate to those of the basic beliefs of Yiddishkeit.
“I believe with all my heart that the RS”O wants us to follow His laws, to bring about a tikkun olam.”
Yes, and many of those laws involve tzniyus. You still can’t pick and chose.
“And for all the men who want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of women,”
Huh? Who’s doing that? Care to name even one instance of this happening?
“perhaps they should look at themselves as well, and see who it is in the vast majority, who is cheating each other in business, cheating on their taxes. Probably not the women.”
Of course, women never do anything wrong. Only men. Got it. So the problem is that the men think it’s all the women’s fault, but really it’s all the men’s fault.
And to think I managed to type that with a straight face.
Perhaps certain women in this forum who “want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of men” should similarly look into the mirror and see if they’re quite so perfect themselves.
cherrybim:
What on earth does any of this have to do with tzniyus?
“A man can choose to focus on what he has to work on – ie, sinas chinam, shmiras einayim, limud Torah, chesed etc. You can also make sure your wife and children know what is right. Or, you can just say that women are to blame for Moshiach’s delay, and excuse yourself from any responsibility.”
Of course men must work on their stuff. As I said before, this isn’t a one-way street in either direction.
That said:
A woman can choose to focus on what she has to work on – ie, tzniyus, chinuch, shalom bayis, chesed etc. You can also make sure your husband and children are doing what is right. Or, you can just say that men are to blame for Moshiach’s delay, and excuse yourself from any responsibility. Again, this a two-way street.
“Chazal also say that women reflect men. It’s your responsibility to make sure that what we reflect is positive!! If you are the sun and we are the moon, who is to blame when the moon isn’t so lichtig?”
So now it’s our problem if you misbehave? Wow. And some complain everything is blamed on the women…
I’m not sure exactly what that chazal means (which shouldn’t come as a suprise seeing as I’ve never heard it before), but I highly doubt it means that women have no bechira. As such, women are just as responsible for their actions as men are for theirs.
Yes, this certainly shows that marrying only for beauty is not a good idea. However, I don’t think this teaches us anything about marrying two wives for other reasons.
WIY:
“I would ask a Rav before deducting Tzeddakah money from your grocery expenses.”
So would I, but who said Dr Pepper is deducting this from masser? It sounds like he just thinks it’s a nice thing to do (which is a great point, by the way).
pascha bchochma:
“[Lemech] had two wives: this was the way of the generation of the flood, one for having children and one for marriage.”
The problem wasn’t that they had two wives; the problem was that one was just for beauty. As others have pointed out, 2/3 of the Avos had more than one wife (and one of them had 4).
oomis1105:
“”Well apparently, the Gemora says there was more than one reason. Not sure why this got such a sarcastic reaction from you…”
Really? Maybe because I am tired of all the ills of Klal Yisroel continuously being attributed to something that WOMEN have done. Every bad thing that happens apparently is because of something women are or are not doing.”
First of all, nobody here made this up, it’s a Gemora. If you’re tired of the Gemora blaming women, take it up with Hashem, not us.
Second, precisely which “ills of Klal Yisroel” are “continuously being attributed to something that WOMEN have done”?
“Men need to take responsibility for their actions that are delaying Mashiach from coming.”
Agreed, but so do women. This isn’t a one-way street in either direction.
“The Gemarah clearly states that it was sinas chinam that was responsible for the Churban.”
The Gemora also apparently states that women wearing too much cosmetics was the reason for the Churban. You can’t pick and choose.
“To make a moral equivalency between the wearing of cosmetics by womem…”
The Gemora says the problem was women wearing too much cosmetics, not that women should never wear cosmetics at all.
“…with the extreme evil of sinas chinam, is unfair, to say the least.”
Are you calling the Gemora “unfair, to say the least”? If you have a problem with the Gemora, the problem is with you, not the Gemora.
“The many halachos we have referring to mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro would seem to validate the idea that He very much cares about people who are mean to each other”
And the many halachos about tzniyus would seem to validate the idea that He very much cares about how women dress. I’m not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive. And again, you can’t pick and choose.
SJSinNYC: No, I don’t either 🙂
Being healthier/losing weight requires lifestyle changes. My two personal favorite tricks are:
1) Stock up on healthy snacks you enjoy. This goes for raisin/nut mixes, pickles, etc. Then snack guilt-free as often as you want.
2) Only drink seltzer. It’s basically water, but it’s a lot easier to get used to drinking then water (especially for those of us who are used to soda).
Good luck!
popa_bar_abba and apushatayid: Well said.
“it makes sense why someone in the yeshivishe velt would say something to that effect”
What?! The “yeshivishe velt” is very into their emunas Chachomim, and would rip somebody who said something like this to pieces.
For the second time: No, I’m not “basicly saying since everyone does it its ok”. I’m not sure exactly what you didn’t understand about my previous post, so I’ll try this one more time:
In order for something to attract attention, it needs to be out of the ordinary.
Therefore, doing something that is widely done is obviously not going to attract attention.
In other words: Everybody doing something attention grabbing doesn’t make it OK, it simply makes it not attention grabbing anymore.
As always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should be asked to your LOR, not to anonymous CR members who may or may not know what they’re talking about.
I was always under the impression that the gezira expired, but has since become accepted as minhag yisroel.
BenTorah:
“Its okay to wear makeup ON a date. There isn’t a justification to wear it all the time because you are in shidduchim.”
Who says wearing makeup requires a “justification”?
oomis1105:
“”The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics,”
And here I was thinking all these years that is was because of sinas chinam! Or were Kamtza and Bar Kamtza women…?”
Well apparently, the Gemora says there was more than one reason. Not sure why this got such a sarcastic reaction from you…
“”You can look good without makeup, just like Bais Yaakov girls do”
And many of those BY girls need the help of makeup, or they look washed out.”
No, they don’t need makeup, because their self-confidence is at the point where they don’t feel the need to wear it. It’s those who feel “schluchy” (whatever that means) without makeup who need to wear it to feel good about themselves.
Hmm… these sects sure don’t sound too jewish to me.
“As far as devening late, it is actually an inyan (i.e. better) to daven Mincha as late as possible.”
Only until shikiah.
OK, I’ll spell this out for you.
Doing something is not saying “look at me” if everybody is doing the same thing. To say “look at me” means to draw attention to yourself, which is not normally or conductivity done by doing what everybody else is doing.
apushatayid:
“I don’t think the hats described scream “look at me” any louder than some Borsalinos found on many men.”
The obvious differences being that
1) almost all men wear hats (at least in my community)
2) the hats tend to be very similar: all black, around the same size, etc.
Therefore, a man wearing a hat would be fitting in, not saying “look at me”.
Also, it’s more of a problem for a woman to draw attention to herself then it is for a man.
frumladygit:
“Either you’re unknowledgeable or just plain ignorant”
Wow, what a intelligent, impartial statement…
“By the way, just out of curiosity, which shetls/cities are you referring which are made up of the BT’s whose kids are at risk or already going off the derech? I am not aware that BT’s congregated together for making statistics such as what you’re coming up with.”
As I explained before, I see this to be true in BT heavy neighborhoods in Monsey. Also, it stands to reason: if people can have their parenting abilities impaired by growing up in aa emotionally dysfunctional home, why shouldn’t the same apply to a spiritually dysfunctional home?
“making statistics such as what you’re coming up with”
As Ben Torah pointed out, somehow I doubt your statistics are rock-solid either…
PY: Just looked it up: Hilchos Teshuva, 3:6.
Josh31: What about Geirim?
Considering that politigal’s only other post was to start the topic of “Who are you voting for on November 2nd?” (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-are-you-voting-for-on-november-2nd), which was little more than an appeal for Turner, I would have to agree with mbachur and WIY.
rebdoniel: Oorah is run by highly respected Rabbonim (primarily R’ Chaim Mintz, who is also co-Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Staten Island together with R’ Reuven Feinstein), so I would imagine they have quite a good reason for doing what they do.
Pashuteh Yid:
The Rambam clearly states that is one does not believe in any certain principles, he/she does not have a share in gan eden. One could be the biggest mensch in town, but if he doesn’t believe in tichiyas hameisim it’s not getting him anywhere. If the be all and end all of the Torah was just menschlichkeit, one would imagine that anybody and everybody who practiced menschlichkeit would get some gan eden for their efforts.
Josh31:
Not entirely sure what you’re getting at. However, Judaism is based first and foremost on observance of the Torah, and only after that “upon shared national experiences”.
oomis1105:
“If sufficient revenue is not coming in from taxes, the government finds OTHER ways to hit the little guys with higher taxes on items they purchase, on phone usage, MTA increases, postal increases, etc.”
I’m fairly certain that the only things that go up are state taxes, since the states (unlike the feds) actually make their budgets work each year. And if I’m not mistaken, the only state taxes are sales taxes, property taxes, and the like, which are rather hard to cheat on. Postal increases, on the other hand, are indeed federal: however, they go up to make up for the losses incurred by the postal service, regardless of how much is or is not collected in taxes.
SJSinNYC: Why thank you.
Continuing:
Chabad – dedication to kiruv
Breslov – always connecting to Hashem
Chassidim in general – Emunas Chachomim
Anybody think of anything else?
yitayningwut:
“I am fine with that, as I said his point might be true.”
Might?
“I only wished to point out that the question doesn’t need to be answered and cannot really be used as proof to his point.”
He is giving an alternative answer, which is very common in divrei Torah. I don’t see why this is still bothering you.
frumladygit:
“I resent the comment posted above by mw13 who stated as a fact it is more common for children of BT’s to go off the derech than from FFB homes. I disagree entirely. Maybe you can kindly explain then why Monsey and Monroe are having a “bum” crisis?.. Not too many BT’s there in comparision to the Frum families who “know how to parent” naturally, as you stated above.”
As a Monsey resident, I can tell you that the neighborhood that has the biggest “bum crisis”, as you put it, has the most BTs. I’m sorry if this theory offends you, but I’m fairly certain it’s real.
Pashuteh Yid: Sorry, I thought when you said menchlichkeit, you were only referring to bein adom li’chavairo. If you want to extend menchlichkeit to bein adom li’Makom (ie, doing all the mitzvos out of hakora hatov to Hashem, etc), then I would have to agree this is definitely one way of looking at the Torah.
However, while doing Avodas HaKodesh out of menchlichkeit is indeed quite commendable, I do not believe it is the highest level of serving Hashem. I was always under the impression that the highest level of service is to the mitzvos for no other reason then because Hashem said we should (although off the top of my head I can’t think of a source for this).
WIY: I really don’t think apushatayid’s version was so disrespectful of Daas Torah… it was more making fun of askonim who twist the Rabbonim’s words.
apushatayid
“Suffice to say I don’t have much respect for you.”
Uncalled for.
leftbrooklyn: As always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should go to your LOR, not some anonymous commenter who may or may not have an idea what they’re talking about.
yitayningwut: The Klei Yakkar was giving a drasha-type shtickel, which is clearly not pushut pshat in the Gemora.
lesschumras: Fair point.
Sorry, I didn’t see your first post till now.
“Mai dsani lach lchavrech lo saavid, zehu kol hatorah kula.”
While the pashtus of this certainly seems to imply like you said, I find it difficult to believe this statement was meant to be taken literally. After all, there are plenty of halachos that have nothing to do with menchlichkeit: avodah zora, emunah, etc. These are obviously fundamentals of Yiddishkeit, and yet they have nothing to do anybody but you and Hashem. Therefore, there must be more to the Torah then just bein adom li’chavaro. Remember, there are two luchos, and they are both equally important.
myfriend: Why thank you.