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yid.period, I’m not sure if we’re communicating here. Let’s try this one more time:
I believe that the yeshiva world believes that one should live only to serve Hashem, as opposed to the modern world that believes one of the things one should live for is to serve Hashem but that other things are OK also. Hope that cleared up what I’m trying to say.
“And if you want to define MO as someone who is affected by secular culture as you’ve said before, then everyone in lakewood is MO as well, because everyone’s dress has adapted according to society’s acceptable standards. Even the coveted black hat developed from what was considered distinguished in Europe.”
I’m sorry, but Europe is no longer “modern”. Being modern means being affected by today’s culture, not yesterday’s.
cucumber:
“Someone who was brought up with abuse or who had his/her confidence destroyed by someone else could not control that. Sure he can choose what to do next and how to respond but his choice is not on the same level as someone brought up well and he is still not a happy person. Passing on the chain of abuse is wrong. But all that can’t change the fact the abuser is still an unhappy person who is suffering too.”
Yes people who are abused often become abusive. However, people also become abusive by themselves (or else how did the chain begin?) so I don’t think we can say an abuser has necessarily been abused.
Also, I think this whole abuser=abused thing is only by child abuse. Most other evil paths are self-chosen.
tbt:
“mw13: I think you may be oversimplifying things. Its a very broad discussion, which can be had. But first, we would have to clearly outline what we’re debating and what conclusion we are trying to arrive at.”
We are debating whether one is responsible for their own evilness, or whether it is caused by outside factors. What conclusion you are trying to arrive at will depend on which side of the debate you take.
“Iuv (????) tried to exempt all the reshoim from being punished. What was he thinking?”
I do not know. But what bearing does this have on our discussion?
“Do you believe that seeing a psychologist, not a psychiatrist (who prescribes medications), is ever warranted?”
Absolutely.
tbt:
“How do these two go together? Don’t the maccabeats follow RHS’s opinion?”
Apparently not.
yitayningwut:
True, listening to secular music (assuming there’s no problem of kol isha) is not halachicly assur. However there may be hashkafic problems, as smile66 and StuffedCabbage explained above.
Wolf not only did you not anything wrong, you did exactly what should be done in such a situation. Kol yisroel areivim zeh li’zeh, both in gashmiyus and ruchniyus. If I’m not mistaken, the Mishna Brura actually says that one should yell at people talking during davening, but I always took that to be the last step (ie stop them from talking even if you have to yell at them) and that doing it nicely is far better.
Actually, I had a pretty similar situation myself this morning; during shachris, two people in front of me kept shmozzing. My first step was (as it usually is) to daven extra loudly while looking straight at the people. This time that strategy didn’t work, so in between paragraphs I gave a low “shh”. Sure enough, a couple of seconds later they stopped talking.
cherrybim:
“The great G’dolim of the past also wore grey clothing and hats.”
Again, this is not about what was done in the past. This is about what a black hat represents today.
yid.period:
“What you are referring to are people who are not orthodox.”
I completely disagree. Anybody who follows the Shulchan Orach is Orthodox in my book. And if they partake in the secular culture (TV, movies, music, magazines, etc) they are also modern. Modern Orthodox, by definition, are the people who do both.
“What MO really means, and what YU’s slogan means, is people who are both Modern AND Orthodox”
Exactly. They keep the Shulchan Orach, so they are Orthodox. But they also try to have a good time in this world and get involved in the secular culture around them, so they are modern.
“MO believe not in the standalone value of madda, but in its potential to bring us closer to Hashem.”
Studying science is indeed a way to get closer to Hashem (although it obviously does not compare to learning Torah), but that’s not quite all the MO do. How does having a TV, for example, bring one closer to Hashem?
“That bzeiyat apecha tochal lachem means get a job,”
“bzeiyat apecha tochal lachem” is a curse, not a command. I don’t think it is wise to try to fulfill a curse.
“that being an ohr lagoyim means interacting with goyim,”
Interacting with the goyim, perhaps; but most definitely not to get influenced by them. That doesn’t help them, and it most certainly doesn’t help us. And yet that is the definition of modern; to be influenced by the times.
“and that studying biology can give one insight in to the niflaot of Hashem. But, all of this is because we (oh no, one of those!) believe this is the best way to serve Hashem; and this IS putting Hashem and torah first.”
Again, studying biology may very well bring one closer to Hashem, but what about having a TV? What about reading secular “entertainment” magazines? What about listening to secular music? How do these bring one closer to Hashem?
“The frum crowd in YU put in a 7 or 8 hours of learning, fit in around their studies in the afternoon. And you better believe they fight for it, and appreciate their torah. Now, what you were referring to are people who are not going about it in its proper form; however those exist in every circle–yeshivish chasidish etc. So to reiterate, proper MO does only live for torah, and it all revolves around Hashem”
IMHO, somebody who learns 7-8 hours a day and does not partake in the secular culture (TV, movies, music, magazines, etc) is not modern. MO, as I said before, is by definition somebody who is affected by secular culture.
anon1m0us:
“MW13: You said “The yeshiva world scrupulously tries to avoid anything and everything that could damage their ruchniyus.” Do you think this is true? Haven’t we seen countless examples where the opposite is true?”
Of course. But then, there are also people who call themselves MO and are a far cry from orthodox. But I was talking about what is considered the ideal philosophy in the MO and yehiva world, not what they actually do.
“In addition, what is wrong with Torah Umada?”
I did not say there is anything “wrong” with Torah u’Mada, only that a life spent pursuing Torah and something else can’t be compared to a life spent pursuing Torah alone.
“Most of our Tannim worked! Not one of our Taanim or Amorim which we hold dear, relied on government assistance”
“it was a boy from a “frum yeshivish” home that brought in a improper magazine to show to the other boys. It was the chassidsh man on Motza Shabbos who was behind “the wall” in Video Rama in BP.”
And I’m supposed to believe that no MO people do anything wrong?! Again, we are discussing the underlying ideals of the yeshivish and the modern, not what individuals who claim to associate themselves with the group may do.
“This whole concept of we hold Torah more important than other groups is disturbing to me.”
First of all, I never said any one group is better than all the others. This is only a comparison of the importance of Torah and Halacha in the Yeshiva and MO world. And you may find the results disturbing, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t true.
“Kovah Etim is not learning 100 blatts. It is learning that one line of chumish at 6:00 PM, every night no matter what. THAT is what shows one is machshiv torah and that is why K’vayah Eitem is asked and not how many blatt.”
I’m sorry, but I don’t see how learning one line of Chumash a day can be better than learning a hundred blatt.
“When I see people who work all day and show up early to learn and at night to learn. To me those are the pillars of the world!”
And are the people who live on far less so as to be able to learn all day not the pillars of the world?!
anon1m0us:
“I think EVERY movement in the frum world puts Torah above all. Modern Orthodox, Benai Akiva etc. They all believe Torah comes first.”
True, everybody puts Torah first to some extent; but the question is to what extent.
The yeshiva world scrupulously tries to avoid anything and everything that could damage their ruchniyus. They do not have TVs, they do not read secular magazines, and they will make do with far less so as to be able to learn more. This allows them to lead lives devoted entirely to serving Hashem, and do nothing (or as little as possible) else.
The modern world, on the other hand, tries have a good time both in this world and the next. They tend to be much more open to
(and influenced by) the culture around them, and this shows in how they conduct themselves. (The more influenced one is by the secular culture around him, the less of a Torah-oriented life he/she lives.) They keep and follow the Torah, but it is not all they live for.
In my mind, the MO philosophy is summed up by YU’s motto, “Torah u’Madda”. Torah, but everything else also. As opposed to Lakewood, which says “Torah, and nothing else”.
yid.period:
“mw13: You’re right, but the point of this whole conversation is that there is too much emphasis placed on what one is wearing instead of really judging someone based on who they are.”
No, the point of this topic, and the gist of most of my comments so far, is to answer this question from the OP: “Im just really curious to know what the deal is with Black Hats. What does it mean? What goes along with wearing one?”
Also, I do not think “there is too much emphasis placed on what one is wearing”. What one wears is an expression of who one is, and what they think is the appropriate hashkafa. You can shout “chitzoniyus” from today till tomorrow, but at the end of the day what a person wears more often then not gives everybody else a pretty good idea of what their hashkofos are.
apushatayid:
“Forget the person. Is the hat a yiray shamayim? If someone would tell me that wearing a black hat (or a purple cardigan) improves their yiras shamayim, I would tell them to make sure to own one for each day of the week and a super nice one for shabbos.”
No, neither a black hat nor a purple cardigan inherently improves one’s yiras shumayim. However, dressing a certain way may identify one as a yiray shumayim.
“Just wearing it because it is an identifier, is not necessarily a bad thing, but other choose other identifiers to also connote “ben torah”.
You can choose to identify yourself as a ben Torah however you want, but you gotta make sure everybody else realizes what you’re trying to say. In today’s world, a ben Torah is usually identified by a white shirt and black pants. If somebody chooses to wear a T-shirt and jeans, he can’t blame everybody else for not realizing he is trying to identify himself as a ben Torah.
“Lastly, what does it mean to a person when they make the statement that they belong to a certain group?”
It means that they (roughly) believe in the general hashkafos and derech ha’chayim of that group. Also, they will often want a spouse who shares the hashkofos and derech ha’chayim of the group.
truth be told:
“mw13: I’m not sure what we disagree about.”
This what we disagree about:
“bad midddos = emotional imbalances.”
I am saying that bad middos do not result from emotional/physiological problems, rather from the conscience decision to strengthen one’s bad middos. This may result in emotional problems, but it is not caused by emotional problems.
yid.period:
“Mw13: We all agree there is a certain objective “classy style” that should be obtained by a ben torah, or jew in general for that matter. Not because any specific garment (other than tzitzis and kipa obviously) does the trick, but because we are supposed to hold ourselves in esteem.”
True, we must dress respectably. But I was addressing an entirely different issue; that how dress shows who and what we associate ourselves with.
Princess123:
“what is a proper punishment for a teenager cought texting the opposite gender??? im at a loss”
Assuming this is a li’maseh question, I would suggest that you speak to an experienced Rov/Rebbi/other chinuch professional that will be able to judge based on the particulars of the case (ie, how far the relationship has developed, the personality of your child, etc) what the correct move should be.
ayalah:
“whoo the heck cares??????? let them do watever they want maibie thier talking to the oppiset gender. sooo whatt? its not like thier having boy frieds/girl friends its just texing relax”
Talking/texting is the first step towards having a boyfriend/girlfriend. And these things are much, much harder to stop after the relationship is firmly established.
If I’m not mistaken, the Rambam says something to the effect that it is not humanly possible to understand how free will and Divine Providence can co-exist.
“Do you actually think the “yeshiva” world puts Torah and halacha before everything else?”
Yes, I think this is the underlying ideology of the Yeshiva world.
“I do not think a black hat or non black hat makes one a better Jew.”
I think your missing my point here. I’m not trying to suggest that every person wearing a black hat is automatically a good Jew. What I am saying is that the ideology of the Yeshiva movement as a whole is one of putting the Torah and Halacha above else; and that this is a marvelous ideology to identify oneself with. Of course, every culture will have its imperfections and its creeps; but the underlying philosophy of the Yeshiva world is one worth adopting.
“After 120, they are not going to ask you the color of your hat. I promise you that!”
True. But they will ask you what group of people and what ideology you identified yourself with.
TBT:
“But why would anyone choose to become a destructive monster?”
Because people have free-will, and can do whatever they please. Have you never done something just to spite, or even hurt somebody? I certainly have, and I believe we all have that monster within us. We can choose to fight it, or we can choose to strengthen it.
“Besides, wicked people are full of regrets (chazal). Not being content and always regretting, yet repeating the same exact deal in the same again and again, is certainly the makeup of an unhappy etc person.”
Certainly, being wicked will result in a regret-filled, unhappy life. But that doesn’t mean somebody starting down the path of wickedness has physiological problems. They are just normal people who have chosen to follow and strengthen their inner monster. Only later does the path that they have chosen ruin their lives.
SJSinNYC:
“There are some unanswerable questions, some things that look like paradoxes and some things that seem historically inaccurate. It does take emunah.”
There may be things we don’t know the answer to, but we still must be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Judaism is correct. For example, we may not understand how free will and Divine Providence can co-exist, but we can prove they do.
“mw13, Judaism doesn’t claim to have all the answers in current form. They are all hidden within Torah. But to say that we know all the answers from Judaism is wrong.”
To say we know all the answers to everything is indeed a mistake;
but to say that we can intellectually prove our religion is the correct one is from the basics of Judaism.
GAW:
“MW13: What do you suggest to someone who has looked through the proofs and decides they are not good enough for him/her? Should he not believe?”
No, I would suggest he go speak to a Rov, a kiruv professional, or somebody of the like. We have the answers, so we should not fear the questions.
No, Moshe Rabbainu did not wear a hat. (Then again, I doubt he wore pants either.) And no, there is nothing intrinsically holy about a black hat. However, wearing a black hat shows that you identify yourself with the yeshiva community, who put Torah and Halacha above all else. (That is not to say everybody else does not, only that they do.) Not wearing a black hat normally shows that one does not identify with the yeshiva community. This association only devolved fairly recently, but it is true nonetheless.
“Personally I have an extra level of respect for those rabbeim i know who dont feel the need to put on a black hat when they themselves did not grow up with one because they live the ideal that chitzonius is sheker.”
I’m not quite sure I follow that… would you have extra respect for a Rav who dresses in a T-shirt and shorts because he “lives the ideal that chitzonius is sheker”?
I have several acquaintances here in the CR who know who I am, and many others that know my screename even thought they are not CR members. I stand by what I say, and I am not scared of people knowing who I am.
Am I scared the world is coming to an end? No.
Do I think Hashem is telling us to shape up? Yes.
cucumber:
“Its only unhappy, insecure people with no self-confidence who become abusive to make themselves feel good and powerful. No normal person feels good when they hurt other people.”
I disagree. Just as every person can make themselves into a good, even great person, every person can make themselves into bad person, or even a monster. We all have the ability to become a Godly saint, and we all have it within ourselves to become a monster. It’s just a question of who we choose to become.
charliehall:
“There is no way to prove Torah — or even HaShem’s existence — through empirical data or through logic. HaShem and His Torah are beyond any human comprehension, beyond the physical universe. If I could come up with a proof of the existence of God — certainly our greatest sages have tried — it would not be God that I was proven. How can a mere mortal such as me even think for a second that I could prove God’s existence.”
I have seen many, many proofs to Hashem’s existence brought down by the Chovos HaLevavos, the Rambam, and the Kuzari, to name just a few. They do not seem to share these doubts of yours.
“There is a further problem: Once you have accepted that God is susceptible to proof, you have not only reduced God to a human level chas v’shalom, you have admitted the possibility that God could be DISproven Chas V’Shalom!”
Of course there is that possibility. That is why every thinking Jew should go through the Chovos HaLevavos, Rambam hilchos Daios, and/or the Kuzari and decide for him or herself whether or not they believe in Hashem. If I’m not mistaken, the Chovos HaLevavos holds that doing so is fulfilling a mitzvas asay.
Also, I’m not quite sure what you’re suggesting as an alternative. You say that “If you truly believe in H”K”B”H, no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince you otherwise”. Perhaps, but according to you how does one start believing in the first place? If there is (CH”V) no intellectualism behind Judaisim, why would any thinking person be a believing Jew?
Also, once you suggest simply switching the mind off and blindly believing, why believe in Judaism? Why not blindly believe in Christianity, Islam, or Buddhism?
“Judaism does not pretend to have an Answer to Every Question. Life has lots of things that Don’t Make Sense. The Torah is the tool HaShem gave us to navigate our way through this senseless world, acting justly to our fellows while constantly being reminded of Who Is In Charge. “
I could not disagree with you more. Judaism most certainly has the answer to every question. It is what sets us apart from every other religion; we’re right. We have the answers. We know what God really wants. This is, in my opinion, from the most fundamental beliefs a Jew must have.
aries2756:
True, most teens who go OTD do so for emotional reasons. But that does not mean that there cannot be other causes sometimes. Every once in a while, you will have somebody who really just has an intellectual issue with Judaism.
Ctrl Alt Del:
“IMHO, I no longer consider them Yiddin. I would not use one for a minyan. I won’t eat their shechitah. I don’t trust their kashrus… They are to me, nochrim. Just plain old non Jews.”
Having a crazy shitah does not make somebody a non-jew (and certainly not a “husk of a human being”!). If you would have said you consider them non-frum, we’d have what to talk about; but anybody who is born Jewish stays Jewish. No matter what they have done, no Jew “becomes” a goy.
That said, I once heard a Rov say (only partially in jest) that he would not count an arab-loving NKnik for a minyan, due to the fact that he’s obviously a shoteh…
<cough> troll </cough>
bump
As tbt said, ask your Rov.
vicpr:
“What is so wrong with a working guy?”
There is nothing “wrong” with a working guy, just as there is nothing wrong with a learning guy. If you want to have a husband who works for a living, fine; but please do not bash those who are willing to live on far less so their husbands can learn.
“Why dony you want to make a life for yourself?”
I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here. In what way is marrying a learning boy not “making a life for yourself”?
“You want learning? Make sure he goes to a shiur once or twice a week and let him learn on weekends. Guys who do this enjoy learning and look forward to it a lor more than guys who do it every day and its routine.”
Even if we would agree that those who learn less enjoy learning more (based on personal experience, I completely disagree), so what? The point is not just to “enjoy learning”, the point is to learn as much of Hashem’s Torah as possible.
“So I wonder, is it the learning that yoou want or when you do some introspection is it attention?… If that’s the truth, pls grow up before you marry.”
Whoa! Why are you automatically assuming the worst possible motive for wanting to marry a learning boy? That’s like assuming that anybody who marries a working boy is doing it solely because they are immature and want money and physical comfort. That’s jumping to conclusions pretty fast, wouldn’t you agree?
Health:
“Also, most people in Kollel aren’t living the pauper life like they used to.”
Perhaps (although that’s hard, if not impossible to prove), but I believe that this is mostly due to an across the board increase in the standard of living. Today kollel couples may not live like paupers, but they still have a much lower standard of living than most other people.
As nice as it as to see such care about the halacha (and about other people’s money), all halacha li’maseh shailos should be addressed to a qualified possek, not asked to anonymous chat room.
I think everybody here agrees to two facts:
1) A man must be attracted to his wife. Therefore, he should date girls he finds attractive.
2) On the other hand, a man cannot, as sac put it, be an animal. Looks should not be all he cares about.
To find the perfect middle ground here is not easy, and it varies by the boy. Therefore, I think this is a personal issue that should be between the boy and his Rebbi. I do not think there is a black and white, all across the board answer here.
As always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should be directed to a qualified possek, not to put the YWCR.
“I dont know if im the only one who feels this way, but its a little annoying not knowing who im talking to…married? not? boy? girl? frum? not? idk!”
No, I can’t say it bothers me. I respond to a comment based on what it says, not based on who I think wrote it.
That said, it’s usually pretty easy to guess the gender and age group of most of the posters once you read enough from them.
MDG:
“There is nothing worse than drunkenness, and the Shulhan Aruch agrees with that. Actually it’s in the Beit Yosef (O”C 695 – same author as the Shulhan Aruch) that says that there is no sin worse than drunkenness and it’s completely forbidden to get drunk. The B”Y says that “Livsumei” does not mean drunk, but to drink a little more than usual.”
I would bet that the Beis Yosef also says somewhere that killing people is not a great idea; does this mean we are not commanded to kill Amalek? Everything must be taken in it’s proper context. I would assume that the Beis Yosef holds that in general getting drunk is a problem, but on Purim it is an obligation.
yogibooboo:
“i was talking about the OP.”
Well forgive me for assuming that a comment that was addressed to me (“MW13 -“, “canine and mw13 -“) was, well, addressed to me.
edited. Please, both of you, lets tone this down and not be personal.
yogibooboo:
“They can have a drink with their fathers, but why get drunk?”
For the umpteenth time, because the Shulchan Orach says to! Which part of this am I not making clear?
“i was NEVER directing anything at you from the very beginning”
I quote:
“MW13… what shyichus is that??!?!! that made no sense.”
“canine and mw13… I’m noticing some people here really dont have a clue”
“oh and while you are teaching your kids to drink, why dont you teach them what it means to have derech eretz for people and peoples belongings because if you can teach them to drink like that, only G-d knows what else you are capable of(and how to mess up your children more.) Now I see why so many kids are OTD, because of parents like you (remember, this post began with “canine and mw13 -“) who have your priorities screwed up. I’m sorry to put it bluntly but it needs to be said”
And, in that very same post:
“im sorry for you!”
Aw, I’m so touched.
aries:
“Ad dlo yadah DOES NOT MEAN getting stone drunk.”
Again, ad di’lo yadah translates as drink “until [you] don’t know” even who Haman or Mordechai is. If that isn’t stone drunk, what is?
I’m with HaKatan on this one. Music is an expression of the deepest feelings and attitudes of the composer. Now, often goyish music will have a neutral, or even positive attitude; however, all too often it conveys prust, animalistic feelings and attitudes. This is not an attitude that any Jew should be exposing his or her soul to.
bump
“watch the way you talk to me.”
All of the ruder statements I made were direct paraphrases from your previous post. What goes around, comes around. And anyways, I have preciously little respect for those openly advocating against the Shulchan Orach.
“im not saying dont follow halacha. the halacha is NOT to get drunk”
Wrong. The halacha is absolutely to get drunk. And if you are telling people not to get drunk, you are telling people to ignore the halacha. Sorry, no two ways about it.
“The halacha is ad dlo yodah! go ahead have a drink! but dont intoxicate yourself.”
Tell me, what exactly do the words “ad di’lo yodah” mena? It means drink until you have no idea what’s happening. Sounds like getting intoxicated to me.
“tell me something how old are you? are you one of those people who find it cool to drink?”
What difference does it make? This halacha applies to every jewish male over the age of 13, whether they think it’s “cool” or whether they think it’s nauseating. We must follow the halacha. Period.
If you use your cell phone as your alarm clock, you can keep changing the tune. That way, you won’t get used to the sound of the alarm clock.
yogibooboo:
“He wants us to follow halacha but not get sick when doing so.”
Care to source that?
“ITS NOT FUNNY ITS NOT CUTE AND MOST OF ALL ITS STUPID!”
No, it’s not funny and it’s not cute. It is, however, the halacha.
“oh and while you are teaching your kids to drink, why dont you teach them what it means to have derech eretz for people and peoples belongings because if you can teach them to drink like that, only G-d knows what else you are capable of(and how to mess up your children more.)”
Yes… once you start down that dangerous path of following the halacha, there’s no telling what you might do!
“Now I see why so many kids are OTD, because of parents like you who have your priorities screwed up. I’m sorry to put it bluntly but it needs to be said”
Wow. So no keeping the halacha makes your kids go off the D? How’d you manage to get that one?
“priorities screwed up”
My first priority is to follow the halacha, no matter what. I don’t consider that “screwed up” (as you so politely put it) in the least.
However, I’ll tell you what I do consider “screwed up” – people who call themselves frum, but actually try to stop others from keeping the halacha!! Tell me, do you think Hashem wants you to go around trying to convince people not to listen the Shulchan Orach?!?!
Now I see why so many kids are OTD, because of parents like you who have absolutely no respect for the halacha, and change Yiddishkeit when they don’t like it!! “I’m sorry to put it bluntly but it needs to be said.”
aries:
“I don’t agree with getting drunk under any circumstances especially for underage individuals.”
Are you aware that the Shulchan Orach disagrees with you?
“the mitzvah is ONLY at the seudah”
True. But a seudah does not have to be “under your own roof”; you can be yotzeh your obligations of having a seudah and drinking anywhere you please.
“do you think this is what Hashem really wants?”
Do I think Hashem wants us to follow the halacha? Absolutely.
Does the halacha say to drink? Unarguably.
You do the math.
sof davar hakol nishma:
“my only thought is – halevai we should all be so enthusiastic in defending and keeping other mitzvos and chiyuvim.”
The difference is that this mitzva, we actually have to defend – how many other halachos can you think of that some people who call themselves frum not only don’t keep, but are actually upset when others keep it?!
smartcookie:
“My husband became drunk one year. It was a nightmare. It is definitely NOT what the Torah asks from us.”
Umm… actually, it is.
“He never did it again B”H.”
We’ll see if you feel the same way about that when he has to give a din v’cheshbon to Hashem for not having kept this halacha.
yogibooboo:
“The mitzvah of drinking is NOTto get drunk. it’s to get a little high.”
According to most poskim and the simple reading of the Gemora, the mitzva is to get completely, throughly smashed. The Rema brings down a HETER that one can drink a little be and then go to sleep, and be yotzeh. (Yes, you must go to sleep. Those who drink a little and do not go to sleep are not yotzeh according to anybody.) However, the Rema himself ends off with saying that one can be mekayam the mitzva either way.
“MW13- “So what? If it was only legal to keep Shabbos for those 21 and older, would you say those under 21 shouldn’t keep Shabbos?!”
what shyichus is that??!?!! that made no sense.”
What shaychis? Very simple – both would theoretically be halachic chiyuvim, yet against the American law. What would you say?
“Purim is about being with yur family, dressing up, megillah, shalach manos, having a seudah(with a little bit of wine), and giving to the poor.”
Again; no, it is not. Purim is about being mekaiyam the mitzvos of the day – megilah, mishloach manos, matanos li’evyonim, the seudah, and drinking.
charliehall:
“”Purim is about being mekaiyam the mitzvos of the day – megilah, mishloach manos, matanos li’evyonim, and drinking.”
WRONG!!! The four mitzvot are megilah, mishloach manot, matanot l’evyonim, and SEUDAH. Anyone who thinks drinking is one of the four mitzvot is allowing his yetzer hara to distory torah.”
True, I forgot to include the seudah. However, drinking is still most definitely one of the mitzvos of Purim, brought down in the Gemora and all of the Poskim. Anyone who thinks drinking is not a mitzva is allowing his yetzer hara to convince him to ignore the halacha simply because it does not appeal to our (western-culture) tastes today.
Also, R’ Twerski is a daas Yochid on this. If he is your Rov, kol hakavod; but if not one cannot go “heter-shopping”.
oomis1105:
“When the Shulchan Aruch was written down, there were no stupid boys driving around in lethal weapon cars…”
True. For the record, I would like to say that it is totally inexcusable to drive while drunk. It is illegal and dangerous.
However, this does not take away the obligation to drink in any way.
“With all the concern about girls’ tznius and measuring skirt lengths,I cannot fathom how the drunken actions of the boys on Purim… is not a way more serious issue.”
What? What does one thing have to do with another?
And besides, a girl dressing not tzinus(ly?) is violating the halacha; a boy getting drunk on Purim is fulfilling the halacha.
popa_bar_abba:
“I’m sorry, but it is really quite ridiculous to claim that there is no halachic basis to get mind-numbingly drunk on purim- because there is. It is the pashtus of the gemara and the shulchan aruch.
Also, I have never seen anybody drink a little bit and then go to sleep, so anybody who does not get drunk is usually not yotzei according to anyone.
And the shulchan aruch wasn’t only written for yeshiva guys. You also have a chiyyuv.”
Thank you – finally, some sense! Well said, and I could not agree more.
yogibooboo:
“PBA-usually I agree with you on things and like what you say…but not this time!”
Tell me, yogibooboo, precisely which part of popa’s post do you disagree with? Do you disagree with his quote of the Gemora and the Shulchan Orach?! Or do you think that the Shulchan Orach really was only written for yeshiva guys?! There’s really not much here that’s a matter of opinion; it’s all straight-out halacha.
I seem to remember that last time we had a thread like this, the YW Editor himself closed it with the words “Ask your Rov”.
Daas Yochid, care to elaborate? What issurim are there?
“I was wondering if anyone can explain what these people think or how to be them Dan L’Zchus.”
How about the standard tinok sh’nishba?
aries:
“There is no contract where the wife promises the husband anything. Just think about that.”
Unless, of course, she agrees in advance to go to work. Which I would assume is normally the case.
PBA:
“If a couple decides that this is how they want to live, why should anybody criticize them?”
Well said, I couldn’t agree more.
aries:
“Because this is not an option or a choice, this concept is forced on kids and they are brainwashed to believe it is the “ONLY” true frum way to live.”
So then your issue is not with the actual woman working, it is this alleged brainwashing you believe is taking place.
Oh, and do you have the same issue with more modern girls being “forced” into thinking that they must work (so as to have a double income home), and being “brainwashed to believe it is the “ONLY” true way to live”?
I’ll tell you what really bothers me – when people bash those following the Shulchan Orach! There is a halachic chiyuv to drink, as stated in the Gemora and all the Poskim. You cannot simply ignore the halachos that you do not like. The halacha is that we drink, so we drink; end of story.
“they are not 21(where it is legal for them)”
So what? If it was only legal to keep Shabbos for those 21 and older, would you say those under 21 shouldn’t keep Shabbos?!
“last year I took away a bottle of wine from a 16 year old and spilled it out right there in front of him.”
Did I mention that another thing that really bothers me is when people are oiver the issur di’Oraysa of “lo sigzul”?
“Tell me what example are these parents and Rabbis setting by allowing them to drink?”
That we should always follow the halacha, no matter what people like you say.
“Isn’t Purim about being happy and having fun?”
No. Purim is about being mekaiyam the mitzvos of the day – megilah, mishloach manos, matanos li’evyonim, and drinking.
mikehall12382:
“maybe, but if that is a case it is a smll minority, not the majority”
Perhaps… but a place with even a small minority who openly disregard and blatantly violate the halacha is far cry from “not harmful at all”.
aries2756: True, in the kesubah the husband guarantees the wife certain things; but if she’s OK being the one making sure she gets those things, what’s the problem?
neek: Halachicly, I do not believe there is anything wrong with a girl listening to non-jewsih to music. It’s just a question of hashkafa.
mikehall12382:
“YU and Stern is not harmful at all… “
Debatable… the crowd there is very modern, and some of them are completely not frum. Also, the halacha is not enforced there at all by the faculty. People are openly not shomer negiah, eat treif, and are mechalel shabbos. Definitely not the most kosher environment in my book.
LITOVA:
The reason boys don’t want to go to college is not only so they can “stay holy”, but also because they want to spend the time learning. This does not apply to girls, who have no chiyuv of talmud Torah.
Also, as has been pointed out there are many kosher options for college and work; all girls are not necessarily being “influenced by their harmful college and work environments” as you seem to believe.
I believe that the wife is more often the one working on changing the husband than vice versa because women are in general more (for want of a better term) emotionally manipulative than men are. Then again, Hashem may have given this trait to women precisely to help them be an an eizer knegdo, as mbachur pointed out.
*Waiting for the bashing to begin*
oomis1105:
“If a mother tells her daughter to do something and that something is NOT against halacha, the daughter is obligated to do as her mother asks,out of Kibud Av v’Eim… As long as the mother is not overes halacha, the daughter who disobeys her IS overes.”
Not necessarily. First of all, as pba pointed out, there are shitos that hold that one is not mechuyav to listen to a parent in anything that does not directly concern the parent.
Secondly, if a parent tells a child to do something against the halacha, it is not considered kibud av v’eim to listen to them. This applies to even a chumra in halacha, but not to a minhag for no reason. I would certainly say that wanting to wear a skirt 4 inches below the knee instead of 2 inches below the knee (to make sure the knee is not showing) is a chumra in halacha, so one would not be mechuyav to listen to one’s parents in this case.
However, I am by no means a possek, and all halacha li’maseh shailos should be directed to your LOR.
To listen to a free shiur on precisely this topic, go to http://www.ohrreuven.com/audio_library.php, click on “THIS YEARS NEW SHIURIM 5770-5771”, “Halacha” (not “Dvar Halacha”, that’s a different section), “Hilchos Kibud Av Vaem”, and finally “Laavor Al Divrei Torah”. Really, the shiur is not even 8 minutes long and well worth listening to.
guy-ocho:
“why r u assuming guys won’t understand?”
Because men simply do not have that same pull to look good as women do. It’s just not there. Just as women cannot understand why it is that us men have such a drive to look at women, we cannot possibly understand why they care so much about how they look.
canine:
There are definitely shitos that hold that one is not mechuyav to listen to the parent in anything that does not directly concern the parent. I believe the primary holder of this shitah is the Mahrik, but other poskim bring him down li’halacha.
bpt:
“Keep in mind, the bocher you will eventualy date, when thru NONE of this grief to get into bais medrash (not in the USA or in EY).”
Not necessarily true at all; in many of the top yeshivos, the faher is very difficult indeed. Instead of just reading a Ramban, a bachur often must make his own shtickle Torah, and then say it over to some of the top Roshei Yeshivos of our generation. In one particular yeshiva, the faher is not just given by one person; rather, the bachur must say his shtickle Torah to a “panel” of three Roshei Yeshivos, all of them “bombing” questions at him. Not exactly a walk in the park.
Really, the guys do not have life handed to them on a silver platter, as some here seem to believe they do.
“Nor did his parents shell out $10,000-$12,000 for the year.”
True… but Beis Medrash isn’t quite that cheap, either. At $6,000 (which I believe is a fairly conservative estimate) for 3-4 years, we’re in the ballpark of $18,000 – $24,000 for the Beis Medrash experience. Definitely not spare change.