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shein:
“Daas Yochid is also a great candidate for the UO. mw13 too is a great candidate.”
Thanks for the nomination, I would certainly be more than willing to take part in such a debate if the Mods and general CR populance decided that I am fit to do so (and, of course, if the debate ends up happening). And I completely forgot about Daas Yochid. he definitely has my nomination too.
Feif Un:
“Here’s my issue, which I will demonstrate by giving an example that has happened in the past: Someone bashes MO by saying, “MO women don’t dress properly.” I respond, “Well, plenty of chareidim have gotten in trouble for XYZ, does that mean chareidi Judaism is about doing XYZ?”
I think that is one of the most interesting points up for debate: When is the complaint of “XYZ is too common in your community” a fair complaint ? Does it have to be 10% with the problem? 25%? 50%? Or is it only a fair point if XYZ is generally accepted in the community? Or is it never a fair point at all?
I think an “elite” debate would be a good idea. Having a debate with only a selected few intellectual, respectful standard-bearers of their respective hashkafos would eliminate the immaturity and loshon hara/sinas chinom aspect that keeps creeping into these types of threads.
I think Mod-42’s nomination of Feif Un, Charliehall, cantoresq, and SJSinNYC for the MO sounds good, and for the Chareidi I would nominate Derech HaMelech, truth be told, WIY, and Mod-80.
Feif Un: How about if Mod-80 promised to leave the moderating up to Mod-42?
frumnotyeshivish:
“Rav Dessler writes that a highwayman who usually kills his victims after he robs them, and one time decides to rob without killing, can get schar for the objectively wrong act of theft.”
Actually, if I’m not mistaken that’s a Gemora which R’ Dessler bases his whole yesod of nikudas ha’bechirah off of. Also, it’s not that the theif “can get schar for the objectively wrong act of theft”, it’s that he gets schar for not killing.
True, Chareidi literally translates as “one who shakes out of fear of Heaven”, but I think we all agree that that’s not what the term refers to today. Today the term Chareidi refers (IMHO) to somebody with a certain set of hashkafos:
1) The Chareidim believe in “sheltering” themselves from the secular world and its influence as much as practically possible. Some Chareidim believe in dressing and acting very differently other nations so as not to mix with and become influenced by them.
2) The Chareidim often have a much broader view of the concept of Mesorah then the MO do. Therefore, they are very wary of anything new to Judaism (Zionism, expanded roles for women, etc).
3) Chareidim often advocate chumros, or making sure to follow the most stringent halachic opinion.
simcha613:
“Many Chareidim are insular to the extreme, even to the extent where they are being hurt.”
I’m didn’t quite follow that – how can being “insular to the extreme” hurt anybody?
“This is why people think MO is about being excessively meikil and being like the Goyim, but it’s not true. MO is about being Jewish, and distinct from the Goyim while using secular society for its positives. Unfortunately, too many people went too far into secular society, and are giving true MO’s a bad name.”
As I pointed out in previous post, I think the people that are giving the true MO a bad name are the “Behaviorally Modern” who are very lax with the Halacha. A true Ideological MO would have none of that.
But I also think that these Behaviorally MOs have become part of the MO society in general, and their ideas (inter-gender mingling (to put it nicely), lack of tznius, etc) have unfortunately become accepted in large parts of the MO world. This is very unfortunate, and most definitely not what the Gedolim who created the true MO Hashkafa (R’ Hirsch, R’ Yoshe Ber, etc) had in mind.
As others have pointed out, there are two different types of MO: the Ideologically Modern and the Behaviorally Modern.
The Ideologically MO have several main hashkafic differences with the Charaedim:
1) The MO believe in trying to fit the Torah together with the modern world and its culture, while the Chareadim believe in keeping away from any foreign culture as much as possible. This debate is the root cause of differences in how secular education, movies and TV, etc. are looked upon in the Modern and Chareadi worlds.
2) The MO usually hold a positive view of Zionism, while the Chareadim look at it as foreign and dangerous.
3) The MO have a much narrower view of the Mesorah than the Chareadim do. This gives the MO much more flexibility in deciding how to approach any situation. Also, this can arguably be called the root cause of all the other hashkafic differences that exist between the Chareadim and the MO.
4) The MO advocate giving women a larger and more public role in Judaism, while the Chareadim advocate a more traditional role for women.
5) The Chareidim often try to make sure that they follow every possible halachic opinion (chumros), which is not as common in the MO world.
The Behaviorally MO do not necessarily share any of these hashkafos. They are simply “modern” in the sense that they are not traditional. The Behaviorally MO are often far more lax with the Halacha than either the Chareidim or the Ideologically MO. They will often rely on the most lenient halachic opinion, and sometimes even (CH”V) ignore the Halacha altogether.
(The above was my comment on the “What is MO” thread.)
mewho:
“enough already of different groups here dissecting the other groups. we are all yidden , we are all brothers and sisters. lets try harder as of today and every day to care more about our fellow yid instead of mocking them for doing something different than yu do or i do or someone else does.”
I don’t see anybody “mocking” anybody else here at all. Actually, I think this is a pretty cool-headed spate of discussions on the MO vs Chareidi outlook on life.
PBA:
Not every yeshiva has pressure like that. There are many more “chilled out” yeshivos specificaly for those who don’t do well with pressure. And by the same token, there are yeshivos with pressure for those who do well under pressure. Chanoch li’nar al pi darko, however that may be.
“What I do sometimes, is in middle of Shemona Esrei, during Shma Koleinu, I’ll just “talk” in English and request my requests and proclaim my apologies, etc.”
I think one is only supposed to do that in middle of Shema Koleinu (between “al tishivainu” and “ki Atuh”) or after “Hashem Tzuri vi’Go’ali” in Elokei nizor. But taling to Hashem in your own langauge is definitely a great idea, and I can testify it really helps one devolop a real relationship relationship with HKB”H.
I enjoy a good debate just as much (and often more than) the next guy. However, I think some subjects are simply to sensitive to openly debate; you have to go to somebody who knows what they’re talking about and get clear, solid answers.
Guys, you’re arguing about one of the Ikrei Emuna here. This is not the kind of subject where any opinion goes – actually, this is the kind of subject that if you say the wrong thing, you might end up with no Olam Haba (CH”V). As such, I don’t think it’s good idea to just discuss this. Anybody who has a serious question should go see their LOR.
I think this problem of “robotic Judaisim”, as the OP so eloquently put it, affects the vast majority of Jews alive today. IMHO, it is the root cause of almost every issue we face today (OTD kids, abuse, chinuch, etc).
It is absolutely crucial that we learn feel Yiddishkeit, not just “do” it. We have to make sure not to get so bogged down that we are just going through the motions, without it meaning a thing to us.
Practically speaking, I think the most effective ways of getting this connection to Yiddishkeit and Hashem back are:
1) Going through davening, both its translation and its in-depth explanations. Our Davening is supposed to the basis of our relationship with Hashem, and going through davening can show you what that relationship is supposed to look like.
2) Learn Mussar. The entire point of Mussar is to make Yiras Shomayim and Ahavas Hashem “real”. Once you acquire true Yiras Hashem (realizing how truly great Hashem is) and Ahavas Hashem (realizing how much Hashem id constantly doing for you, because He loves you), doing Mitzvos will naturally become an outpouring of that
As others have pointed out, there are two different types of MO: the Ideologically Modern and the Behaviorally Modern.
The Ideologically MO have several main hashkafic differences with the Charaedim:
1) The MO believe in trying to fit the Torah together with the modern world and its culture, while the Chareadim believe in keeping away from any foreign culture as much as possible. This debate is the root cause of differences in how secular education, movies and TV, etc. are looked upon in the Modern and Chareadi worlds.
2) The MO usually hold a positive view of Zionism, while the Chareadim look at it as foreign and dangerous.
3) The MO have a much narrower view of the Mesorah than the Chareadim do. This gives the MO much more flexibility in deciding how to approach any situation. Also, this can arguably be called the root cause of all the other hashkafic differences that exist between the Chareadim and the MO.
4) The MO advocate giving women a larger and more public role in Judaism, while the Chareadim advocate a more traditional role for women.
5) The Chareidim often try to make sure that they follow every possible halachic opinion (chumros), which is not as common in the MO world.
The Behaviorally MO do not necessarily share any of these hashkafos. They are simply “modern” because they are not as traditional as the Chareidim. The Behaviorally MO are often far more lax with the Halacha than either the Chareidim or the Ideologically MO. They will often rely on the most lenient halachic opinion, and sometimes even (CH”V) ignore the Halacha altogether.
quark2:
“Because my goal here was never to offend anybody chv”sh. Oh well, what can you do.”
Well, you could technically not insult people (by calling them twisted, abnormal, etc)… that tends to help not offend people.
“BTW all of my ideas are not new. They can be found in classic Jewish sources, aside from being common sense.”
Really? Please name me a source in “classic Jewish” literature that supports calling anybody frummer than you “twisted” or “abnormal”. It’s one thing to go frummie-bashing on your own, but to blame it on the Ramchal is going to new depths.
Also, I find it ludicrous that you seem to think that because the Ramchal didn’t have a beard and may have gone to University means that he would support your vicious attacks on anything and anyone frummer than you.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that Chazal’s positions were “radical” compared to those of the society they were in.
However, I think IUB was just saying that calling Chazal “radical” in an insulting sense is wrong.
We interupt this conversation to bring you a brief meassage from Wikipedia:
“In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: “That was an excellent troll you posted”.”
Wolf:
“Furthermore, sadly, I have no intention of making a serious attempt.”
Why not? If you yourself admit that the only reason you “can’t” stop talking during laining is because you aren’t trying, and you seriously believe that talking during laining is a problem that you would like to fix (as is evident from other posts you’ve written), why don’t you just try?
Chein:
The non-frum usaully just ignore this concept, along witht the rest of the Torah. The MO, however, tend endorse actively being an ohr la’goyim (going out and spreading Torah ideals to goyim) as apposed to the much more passive position (that us just keeping the Torah and serving Hashem is being an ohr la’goyim) taken by the Charaedim.
quark2:
Looks like you’ve been heavily outvoted. But hey, if you’re that “bothered” and “repulsived” by us abnormal super-frummies, fell free to start your own site.
“As do many of the comments of the chassidish/super frum who are trying to impose their twisted world view onto everyone else. Give it up. You are NOT doing a mitzvah, and you are not doing G-ds will. G-d wants us to lead happy, normal lives. Be normal”
Look who’s “imposing their twisted world view onto everyone else” now.
Wolf:
“a practice which I cannot stop.”
IMHO, the only reason you cannot stop talking during laining is because you have decided that you can’t, and therefore you won’t bother trying.
MG & BPT:
Do you realize that you are advocating a divorce based on a 9 line, second-hand account of the story? Don’t you think that’s jumping to conclusions rather fast? As others have pointed out, he may still be being a good father and a good person. Or he may be depressed and with some professional help he could be back on his toes. You simply have no way of knowing.
aries:
“…unless you know how to help the child or you know what the situation is, then in all honestly you are not looking to help anyone just to pass on information.”
Why do you assume that is the case? Why can’t the informant just be alerting the parents of the situation so they can deal with it?
“In your interpretation it might not be messirah at its highest level where it involves the authorities and goyim, but none-the-less, if you masser on someone no good will come of it.”
The way I see it, there are two seperare dimensions to this question: one is a Halachic question, and one is a Hashkafic question.
If you’re addressing the halachic aspect here, I’m not quite sure what you’re saying. I am not aware of something being more or less assur in halacha; it’s usually either a yes or a no. So something would either mesira and assur, or it would not be.
If you are looking at the hashkific aspect of the question, then you are definitely entitled to your own opinion (even if I completely disagree with it). But let me ask you this – if your child was ch”v being mechalel Shabbos, wouldn’t you want somebody to let you know about it?
“Stay out of it, it is NOT your business… Everyone that passes through the life of a child has an obligation to that child.”
Aren’t those two statements contradictory?
And why can’t the witness’s “obligation to the child”, as you so eloquently put it, be fulfilled by setting the parents (who presumably know the details of their child’s situation far better than anybody else, and are therefore far more qualified to act) on the case?
Oh, and sorry for the late response.
bobmaniac:
Huh?
yaakov doe:
“Several years ago there was a “reform rabbi” who married his gay partner on Tisha B’Av in Massachusetts in a “traditional Jewish ceremony”. Very hard to understand their religion.”
…or lack of the aforesaid. But actually, I don’t find it that hard to understand; they simply take what parts of Yiddishkeit they like and completely ignore whatever doesn’t quite strike their fancy. What a disgusting distortion of the Torah.
ronrsr:
“The problems begin in Reform school.”
No, the problems begin with the Reform movement itself.
Thanks, yossi z.
MiddlePath: Hatzlocha rabbah!
ItcheSrulik:
“It is downright evil to usurp the death of an innocent child to push your own personal agendas.”
True. However, it is not evil to use the death of an innocent child to urge others to improve what they are doing. If yid4life honestly believes that Facebook is spiritually harmful, she is perfectly justified in urging others to (as she sees it) improve. However, if somebody is just pushing an agenda (lbj?) then that would definitely be wrong.
mikehall12382:
“I smell Joseph ;)”
I don’t. Joseph may think that anybody who has a different hashkafa then him is not frum, but at least he’s sincere. This sounds like somebody who is just looking for opportunities to insult people (a troll).
It’s not a question of what we can do, it’s a question of if this bothers us. And yes, it bothers me to see the halacha so distorted by this “rabbi” to make it appear that cremations are OK.
PBA:
Lol, and well put.
mikehall12382:
“I don’t think it is wrong to be angry with HAshem”
I wouldn’t take it that far. I’m pretty sure that one is not supposed to be meharher after the ways of Hashem.
happiest:
“I just want to give a HUGE thank you to everyone on this site for being so so supportive!!”
I told you it’s worth it opening a new thread 🙂 But seriously, mi ki’amcha yisroel!
“Hashem should bless all of you with happiness and bracha and parnassa forever!!!”
Amen!
“Don’t the Sefardim pasken by SA even more so than the Ashkenazim who often go with the Rema?”
As a general rule, yes; but as this case shows, every rule has its exceptions.
There is a tsheva from R’ Moshe that states pretty black and white that it is assur to have an opposite-gender friend. (I saw it inside at some point, but I don’t remember where it is… does anybody else?)
aries:
“mw13, as in the past. I am NOT going to argue with you for the sake of arguing.”
And I will not argue with you just for the sake of arguing. I will, however, argue with you for purposes of reaching the truth. Actually, I must admit I’m slightly offended that you seem to think I’m just goading you on – but that is certainly not the case.
“YOU ask your RAV what the meaning of massering is and if it ONLY applies to goyim.”
Actually, I never said that mesira is only by a goy, since I’m not sure if that’s true. I think you’re confusing me with Chein.
“My parents raised me NOT to masser on my siblings, friends or anyone. That is the proper thing to do.”
With all due respect, how your parents raised you and what you feel the proper thing to do is does not change the halacha.
In High School my principal punished the “snitch” for massering.”
“Snitching” for the sake of snitching might be massering (depending on whether or not messira is applicable by a Jew), but I’m pretty sure that telling a parent/teacher about a problem their child is facing with the intention of helping the situation is muttar.
MiddlePath:
“I recently went out with a girl, and she is terrific. We really connect. There’s just one thing that’s bothering me: I feel like I don’t deserve her. She’s almost too good.”
I think a lot of people would kill to have that problem… but seriously, if that’s your biggest issue you should definitely keep going.
“Well she’s only dating me because we met randomly somewhere like a week ago”
I believe the technical term for it is “hashguchah pratis”.
Mod 80:
“thank you charliehall.
from someone who has reasons to sometimes become frustrated with the moderation here
truly a man of integrity”
deiyezooger:
“I would like to second that, aldough I rearly agree with him I still admire the way he makes his points, never shouting or insulting just intelectualy making his point.”
I couldn’t agree more.
happiest:
“I just can’t bring myself to do it for some reason. It’s a big deal for me if I say modeh ani in the morning because I don’t feel happy to be alive in the morning… am I making any sense?”
Of course it makes sense. Hashem runs the world, so if you don’t currently see how everything happening to you is for the good, it adds up that you would not want to thank Hashem.
However, I think two very good suggestions have been said so far:
1) Focus on what Hashem is giving you, and all that Hashem is making go right in your life. Think about the people that cannot see, and think – thank you Hashem for letting me see! Realize how desperately some people would love be able to walk, and think – thank you Hashem for letting me walk! The list goes on and on – thank Hashem for your body, for your economic situation, for mental health, for your friends, etc etc. I fyou set aside a certain time every day to think for 30-60 seconds about one thing Hashem is giving to you, it may go a long way to changing your mindset.
Also, another great suggestion is to “pour out your heart” to Hashem every day. This can make your connection with Hashem alot more real.
minyan gal:
“at my shul during the silent Amidah, they say “use the Hebrew, the English, or words of your own choosing”. One of my friends said that many times she just talks to Hashem about problems that she is having and afterward she feels much better. I haven’t needed to do that as yet, but certainly would.”
I’m sorry, but that is not the way to do things. Davening must retain the form it was set up in by the anshei knesses hagidola. Talking to Hashem is beautiful and to be commended, but must be done together with Davening, not take the place of Davening.
I’m with oomis – I sure hope I’ll get old.
yossief:
“Why are people always so concerned about what others do?”
Do the words “kol yisroel arevim zeh la’zeh” ring a bell? How about “hochaich to’cheiach es amisecha”? We should most definitely be concerned about what others are doing.
happiest:
I definitely think that post of yours deserves its own thread.
PBA:
“But this time I am right. Real right. Read what I said again. Doesn’t it make sense? Isn’t the purpose of parents so that we can understand how Hashem treats us? So doesn’t it follow that if our parents act in a way that we wouldn’t want Hashem to act, that we will have a negative view of Hashem?”
Yes, having bad parents can certainly be one cause for kids going OTD. However, it is far from the only cause. Therefore, I don’t think we can or should automatically assume that the parents are always at fault if the kid is having problems with Yiddishkeit.
As I pointed out above, just like you would not “blame” (or credit) a baal teshuva’s parent with his/her return, we should not blame an OTD kids’ parents for his/her situation. And might I point out that two out of three of our Avos had kids who went OTD, and I doubt that any of us can be half as good of a parent (or just about anything else, for that matter) as they were.
aries:
“Massering is massering, and if you masser to the parents or a Rav you have no control of the results of your interfering. So YES I am going to go there.”
I’m sorry, but you’re being ridiculous. Telling a parent or teacher what their kid/student is doing is simply not a question of mesira. Ask any Rav or Possek.
PBA:
“Suppose you don’t think it is wrong, but it just disturbs you personally? Is that ok?”
I don’t know if it’s OK, but the main issue of “I decide what’s right not the Torah” (ch”v) is certainly absent.
BOR:
“In fact, I argue that it is a higher priority in that you are not consuming any blood at all. And we are told not to eat blood in the Tanakh.”
I’m sorry, but that is ridiculous. Eating meat is clearly not a problem of eating blood.
“I dont see how this is anti-Torah at any length.”
Well, let me try to explain it. (Although first I have to point out that this is the kind of thing you will not understand if you have already decided in advance that it doesn’t make sense.)
To say that there is any valid set of so-called “morals” that do not come from the Torah is to deny Hashem’s Torah is the one and only guide for how humanity should behave. It is robbing the Torah of it’s true Divine standing by equating it with today’s “in” values, thought up by mortal (and often deluded) flesh and blood. We must let only the Divine Torah guide our lives.
Also, to say that there are morals besides what is said in the Torah is saying that the Torah is ch”v missing some morals. In other words, it would be saying that the Torah is ch”v not perfect. To say that Hashem’s Torah is missing things, and is anything less than perfect, can very well be heretical.
aries2756:
“Sender Av, if you tell their parents isn’t that akin to “messirah”? Why does everyone only recognize “messirah” when it involves the other issue? This is also messirah.”
Are you serious? Telling a parent about their kid’s issues is not most definitely not mesirah.
PBA:
I do not think that the parents are at fault in the majority of OTD cases. Every person has bechira, and is free to pick whatever path they want. Just like you would not “blame” (or credit) a baal teshuva’s parent with his/her return, we should not blame an OTD kids’ parents for his/her situation.
Oh and might I point out that two out of three of our Avos had kids who went OTD, and I doubt that any of us can be half as good of a parent (or just about anything else, for that matter) as they were.
Mod 80:
“if one holds by vegetarianism out of “moral” principles and that killing animals for food is “wrong” this is apikorsis gemura.”
Wow, I never heard that. Do you know who holds this?
“Think whaat you will, but anti-Torah “ideals” will not be posted here.”
Thank you.
Derech HaMelech:
“Personally, I don’t think vegetarianism is compatible with Judaism. Following an additional “ism” in addition to Judaism, suggests to me that there is a deficiency in Judaism that needs to be filled.”
I could not agree more. Serving Hashem must be the one and only point of our lives, not just another item on a long list of values.
Peacemaker:
“What’s the halachic (or minhug/hanhaga?) difference between wearing wool vs. cotton tzitzis?”
If I’m not mistake, the Shulchan Orach holds one is only yotzeh with wool while the Rema also allows cotton. There is also some kind of machlokes if one is yotzeh with mesh tzitzis, although I don’t know the particulars.
bombmaniac:
“”Who’s denigrating who now?”
whom*”
I stand corrected.
BOT:
“they are all grouped on the left, but they are not the same people.”
That’s simply not true. The people who hold liberal monetary/economic views are almost always the ones with a pacifist worldview and idealize a permissive society.
“Good luck, you failed politics course 303.”
Why do you always insult people you disagree with? Why can’t we disagree and still have mutual respect?
BOR:
“How would I know who “Agrees with me” or not.”
Well you could theoretically take the time to actually see what people are saying, instead of just assuming everyone is denigrating you…
“I have read numerous posts by you in the last few weeks and it is clearly apparant that you are an illiberal fellow who does not really understand the true nature of Torah service in our communities.”
Who’s denigrating who now?
basket of radishes:
“Sorry to all you people who hate the idea of liberalism. A short sentence is not liberal. IT is permissive. This is permissisivsm. This is not liberalism. Get your facts right… Comparing a permissive policy with a liberal policy is like comparing goats to horses… All of you who bash liberalism when its really the pacificism and the permissivism that you hate should be ashamed of yourselves. You are using liberalism as a scapegoat.”
Seeing as the liberals are in the vast, vast majority of cases the advocates of pacificism and permissivism, I hardly think it’s a stretch to refer to pacifist/permissive ideals as liberalism. And I certainly don’t think it’s something to be ashamed of.
“Get your facts right… Comparing a permissive policy with a liberal policy is like comparing goats to horses… This antiliberalism is G-dless and pagan. All of you who bash liberalism when its really the pacificism and the permissivism that you hate should be ashamed of yourselves… Are you nuts?… I know your idea wont resonate with any of the educated and intelligent voters…”
I hate to mix topics, weren’t you just bashing people who “denigrate” others in the “tzitzis in the summer time” thread? How exactly is what you have said here not denigrating others?
HolyMoe:
Well said, I couldn’t agree more.
The last Rebel:
“What are you getting at here you want someone to tell you that it’s ok not to keep the Torah in your house due to comfort issues?”
Nobody is suggesting not keeping the Torah here. Wearing tzitzis is only a chiyuv while wearing a four-cornered beged, which BOR is probably not doing.
basket of radishes:
“Considering I am probably the only jew outside of the local rabbis family in my town to ever wear Tzitzis daily, I am sure I am doing quite well.”
That very well may be, but that’s no reason to not try to do even better.
“Considering I am not from your “frum” community and was raised on crabmeat and lobster, I’d say I am doing a huge kiddush hashem.”
Nobody is denying that.
“But that said, I will suppose that my hours of reading Tanakh and Torah are not good enough for you.”
Nobody is suggesting that.
“You can keep Torah your way, but do not denigrate another fellow yid for not being as super jewish as you think you are yourself.”
If you post an explanation of why you have decided not to wear tzitzis during the summer on a frum forum, you should not be surprised when people disagree with you. But that’s all they’re doing – disagreeing (albeit rather vehemently) with you. Nobody is denigrating you, and nobody has said a thing about you not being as super jewish as they are. We just disagree with you.
“ill find myself standing at the front, and a bunch of satmar women will just walk right in front of me, ask how much is this and then proceed to pay, whilst im clearly there at the front of the cue”
As a limud zchus, I’d like to point out that frum culture, particularly chareadi/chassidish culture, has been heavily influnced by the (to put in nicely) more informal Israeli culture.
A Rebbi of mine once told over a story from one of his first days in Israel, when somebody walked over to him and shoved him in the back so hard he almost fell. Turning around, he was shocked to see the man just keep walking as though nothing had happened. But after this happened several times, he came to the realization that this was the Israeli way of saying “excuse me”.
shlishi:
“Are you trying to assert that per (spoken) word in halacha is equivalent to per (typed) word online, in regards to being oiver a lav per word?”
Yup.
ICOT:
Also, I believe that the Chofetz Chaim writes that one is oiver a lav per word by lashon hara, onas devorim, etc.
Wolf:
“Then we have to agree to disagree.”
I agree. 🙂
RSRH:
“Is davening for several hours a day instead of for a more typical length of time really more important than attending your classes on time?”
Very possible, bordering on probable.
“What about when it comes time for you to get a job; will davening a one hour shemona esrrei be more important than getting to work on time as your employer expects?”
That issue needs to be dealt with when it arises; how does that affect the present situation?
ICOT:
Thanks for the reminder. Also I would like to point out that by many of the issues you mentioned, one could can be oiver a lav per word. We have to think before posting.
Mod. 80:
Thank you for your crackdown on LH.
truthsharer:
“Have you ever discussed this with a therapist? A 13 year old davening a 1 hour shemona esrei is most likely some OCD issue.”
That’s jumping to conclusions rather fast… there are many far more positive (and likely) reasons for somebody davening a long SE.
Wolf:
“it must be acknowledged that it *is* unusual to take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei”
Agreed.
“and, like anything else that is unusual, if it intereferes with normal routine activities (such as going to school), then it *does* become a problem.”
Disagree.
“A school has a program and a cirriculum. A school cannot make customized schedules for every girl based on their own peculiarities. They have to schedule classes at a time that’s convenient for them and they have to have all the girls conform to that schedule. You cannot run a school if one girl feels that her davening will allow her to skip the first period or two and another girl feels that her chesed mission is more important than class and a third girl feels that she’d be more spiritually accomplished by learning sefer X when the class is learning sefer Y. That’s not a school — that’s anarchy.”
Obviously there must be some semblance of order in a school, but a school should still allow its students to follow their own individual spiritual paths and not smother them with rules, regulations, and conformity. A little bit of flexibility does not automatically create anarchy.
Wolf:
It appears that I may have misread your position. I thought that you were opposed to an hour-long SE in principle (“It should NOT take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei every day”, period); but now you seem to be saying the problem is only that such a long SE will interfere with classes. That is a different argument than the one I thought was taking place.
However, I still disagree with you. The mornings in our school system are spent in Avodas Hakodesh, and there is little Avodas Hakodesh a person (particularly a girl who is not mechuyav in talmud Torah) can be doing that is as productive as davening.