YWN ran a news article today about a “Child Abuse Awareness” event planned by the Jewish Community Watch in Monsey this Sunday. On their website (link can be found in said news story), the JCW explains their mission statement:

Jewish Community Watch protects our children from child sexual abuse, and helps victims heal.

We help victims Heal by getting them the support they need.

As part of their preventative measures, JCW has a fascinating technique that I think has bearing on this discussion: They have a “Wall of Shame”, filled with names and pictures of suspected (although not necessarily proven) child abusers.

Thoughts?

ubiquitin:

Why wouldnt a work of fiction be a legitimate source? A novel written in say Victorian england is a great source regarding how they spoke, lived dressed, and baked bread (if mentioned in the novel). Read Moby Dick (dont really it is long and incredibly boring), it is a great source of information on 19th century whaling and whaling towns.

Seriously? While there are indeed works of fiction that are historically accurate, there are many more that are not. Unless a work of fiction is actually known to be historically accurate, to attempt to prove history from it (without even noting that it is a work of fiction!), and then to use this so-called “proof” to assur a practice that is several hundred years old, is nothing short of ridiculous. I find it hard to believe any impartial and rational person could honestly believe the logic of that argument.

Tell me, should we assur beis din from sitting at a round table because King Arthur and his Knights did so in a storybook?

regarding your second paragraph:

Really No parallel? “OR WITH A CROSS SHAPED KEY” No parallel at all

Of course not. One is discussing making a key shape, one is discussing use a key, among other things, as an instrument to make an entirely different shape. They have nothing to do with each other.

So once again, we do not have proof that this supposed pagan custom even existed, forget about placing it at the time and place where the Jewsih one originated.

First of all, I don’t like that this topic has gone from discussing issues in general to talking about the actions of particular people.

Secondly, even if I would indeed hear a Posek be matir unfiltered internet, there would be preciously few that I would consider to be on par with those of that I previously mentioned. (And of those few, I’m under the impression that many, if not most, of them have gone on record as concurring to the ruling of R’ Vozner, R’ Chaim and R’ Shteinman.) And even this theoretical Posek would indeed be from that select group, it would still be a yochid against a rabbim, and the halacha would obviously follow the rabbim. So I find it very hard to believe that there is any legitimate heter for one to have access to unfiltered internet, for any reason at all.

Several weeks ago, I was at a chasunah where the mesader kiddushin, a rosh yeshiva from Teaneck, asked the eidim if they have unfiltered internet on their phones, in their homes, or by their offices. One of them admitted that he did, and the Rosh Yeshiva did not allow him to be an eid – they had to get somebody else.

It is not our job in this world to met out punishment or revenge. ?? ??? ??? ???? – Hashem will make sure every person gets exactly what they deserve, from the Nazis to the child predators. Our job is to follow Hashem’s halachos, and the laws of mesirah are (at least in theory) pretty unambiguous – it is assur to hand over a Jew to the secular authorities, unless it is clear that he poses a danger to others. And while a proven abuser will indeed fall into this category, that leads us to probably the most thorny issue of the subject: What is considered adequate halachic proof that a person is an abuser? What if its just one person’s word against another’s?

charliehall:

“if you are a mandated reporter in the US, you can’t ask a shilah and you must report”

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if the US government mandated chillul Shabbos?

Syag Lchochma:

“you are 100% right about what SHOULD be, but unfortunately you are wrong about real life, how things are dealt with and what actually happens”

I don’t think anybody here was trying to describe how these matters are actually dealt with, and the unimaginable pain and suffering that those involved nebach go through. This is indeed very much a discussion of theory, of what the reactions “SHOULD be”.

Untill Zionism started, Jews and Arabs co-existed impressively peacefully across the middle east (especially when compared to the situation in Christian Europe at the time). Think of the Rambam, who was a royal officer in the court of the King. I think that historically, its very hard to say the pre-Zionism levels of anti-Semitism in Arab society were anywhere near what they are now.

Also, the latest War in Israel caused an undeniable uptick in anti-Semitic attacks and incidents across Europe.

I am not trying to justify anti-Semitism. Obviously, they are 100% wrong. I just think its ironic that the proposed solution to anti-Semtitism ended up being such a large cause of the problem.

Yekke and Health:

I was testing intellectual merits of the argument of BarryLS1 and zahahvasdad in the “get rid of smartphone” topic by trying out the exact same arguments here (as yekke pointed out, they’re actually copied and pasted). I was curios to see if the same people would think the same arguments hold water when tried in a different context.

I would love to see the smoke detector crowd deal with real issues that are harming people, like; domestic abuse, child abuse, molestation’s, etc. That, they sweep under the rug and the fact that molestation’s do drive people off the derech doesn’t seem to matter to them, just the lack of smoke detector is the cause of all the world’s ills.

Its much easier to blame society ills on smoke detectors and easier to give mussar on them than do the same for molestation, abuse, Finances, Agunahs etc

In life you cant fight every battle, you have to pick and choose them . You have to pick which battles you think you can win and which you might lose (but still win a moral victory) and those which you fight that you will lose more than you gain.

takahmamash:

“It’s not a choice, it’s a mitzvah. If you’re makpid on chumrot in other parts of your life, there’s no reason not to be makpid on the mitzva of yishuv ha’aretz.”

Its actually a rather large machlokes. (And as kj chusid wil probably be happy to explain, there are actually shittos that prohibit a Jew from living in EY today.)

Every churah needs a shikel ha’daas, a judgment of the gains and losses. For example, although there are formidable shittos that hold that one must use matzos baked on erev Pesach for the seder, many are not makpid to do so. Why? A) because they are exorbitantly expensive and B) because oftentimes, they end up being chometz gammur. A similar cheshbon can be made here; although there are indeed shittos that hold one must live in EY today, to do so one must often A) risk loving their livelihood and B) having their kids molded by a culture whose ideals they do not agree with.

kj chusdi:

“Zionism is a complete and utter failure at what it tried to (supposedly) accomplish which was to create a safe haven for Jews a

Simple look at statistics well show u that the biggest number of

Jews have been killed In Israel over the past 60 years so besides

For exacerbating anti semitism what has the state of

Israel accomplished?”

A do agree that the Zionist experiment has completely backfired; instead a curing global Antisemitism and creating a safe haven for the Jews, Israel today is the leading cause of global Antisemitism and the leading locale of Jews being killed simply because they are Jews.

That said, how lucky is one who is able to live in our land, the land of our forefathers. Love the land, hate the state.

“Whew… finally found that tenth piece.”

…buried in crack between the chalav stam threads 😉

It was originally hidden between Zionism threads, but someone’s wireless mouse must have moved it.

My brother-in-law’s chavrusa’s cousin’s imaginary friend got a psak from Moshe Rabbeinu that the only way to kasher an outlet is to soak it in boiling water, then scrub it with your hands.

Joseph:

“If you mean that the Litvaks didn’t become Chasidim, you’re correct. But the Litvish gedolim sit on the same moetzes gedolei haTorah as the Chasidish gedolim and on the same communal organizations”

While the Litvish Gedolim do indeed work together with Chassidish ones in areas where they have they have shared interests, they do not condone Chassidish practices that they have always opposed (practices that follow Kabbala in contraction to Halacha, laxity in zmanim, etc). And indeed, I think that should be a model for how we American Chareidim should relate to the MO; working together in areas of shared interests, while remaining opposed to practices and beliefs that we think are incorrect. (Although admittedly the argument could be made that we have less shared interests with the MO than we do with the Chassidim.)

Sam2:

“I’m not sure that works by a Minhag. If the Minhag wasn’t Nahug, it’s kinda not a Minhag anymore.”

Interesting point. However, I don’t know if we can consider the fact that one particular application of a minhag was not nuhag, arguably bi’taos (according to the Poskim that assur peanuts), as an actual change in the minhag.

Its truly amazing how people can manage turn black into white and white into black if they want to badly enough. That it should be a mitzva to drink davka chalav stam? And an aveirah to drink chalav yisroel?!

If somebody told that to R’ Moshe, I don’t know if he’d laugh or cry.

To quote John Stewart: “Amazingly, mind-boggingly, almost inspiringly stupid!”

Barry, I was hoping we could have a civil conversation about what the correct reaction should be when somebody does something that is wrong. However that does not appear to be the case, seeing as I try to bow out of a discussion when the insults and accusations start flying.

Oh well.

takamamsh:

“I grew up eating peanuts on Pesach, and I clearly remember my Mom z”l using peanut oil. You cannot convince me that some time between the late 60s/early 70s until today that peanuts magically became kitniyot.”

Me neither. However, I can be convinced that most poskim hold that peanuts were always considered (or at least, should always have been considered) kitniyos.

charliehall:

Just because a grain has been (relatively) recently discovered does not mean that it can’t fall into a category, and hence a prohibition, that is hundreds of years older. And it is nothing short of ridiculous to say that finding another application of a rule is changing the essence of the rule; would you say the fact that turning on a light is assur shows that Shabbos observance can be “changed”?!

Barry:

“As to Quinoa, the Star-K tested and researched it and proved that Quinoa is not kitniyos and as you say, the issue has gone wild and taken on a life of it’s own. That’s the times we live in. The Chumrah of the month club run amok.”

While there are indeed qualified poskim who are matir quinoa, I’m under the impression that there are qualified poskim who assur it as well. Just because somebody holds a different halachic position than you do is no reason to belittle it.

lesschuraha:

“I’ve mentioned this before but no one has ever responded. If minhagim cannot change, how were the chassidim able to throw away centuries of minhagim? They discarded the nusach and adopted a new one.”

First of all, they adopted a nusach in line with teachings of the Ari, not just their stomachs. Second, many were indeed very upset at them.

LWers are often against minhagim that were established due to factors that are (at least in their opinion) no longer relevant today. RWers are usually far more hesitant to discard customs that have been in place for a thousand years.

Barry, why don’t you also suggest asking a Rov if its appropriate to give mussar to criminals? You don’t know that they’ll listen, either. Why are you so gung-ho in demanding that “we should not be silent” in one case of wrongdoing and so hesitating in another? Isn’t that a double standard?

“A person lacking tznius harms themselves. The Jewish criminal harms others and yiddishkeit in general and making excuses or defending them is insidious.”

The exact opposite argument could be made. The Jewish criminal lands only himself in prison, while those who dress un-tzniyusdik can harm everyone who sees them (as EretzHaK pointed out). Making excuses or defending them is also insidious.

I think most people here do not mean to be downplaying the need for either hishtadlus or teshuvah. They just feel that one is being downplayed when only the other one is mentioned, so they quickly point out how important _________ is. Then the same thing happens on the other side of the aisle. And round and round we go.

Sam2:

“YYBC: Of course Hashem isn’t involved.”

Umm… typo?

Supposedly somebody once asked R’ Avigdor Miller how to do kiddush levana on the moon. R’ Avigdor Miller gave him a quarter and said “When you get there, call me”.

Barry:

“we should not be silent when someone makes a Chilul Hashem and harms people as well.”

Just out of curiosity, do you similarly believe that “we should not be silent” when somebody doesn’t keep the halachos of shabbos, kashrus, tzniyus, etc?

Joseph:

The fact the yeshivishe community has its own fashion trends does not take away from charliehall’s point that they do have fashion trends. Actually, it seems to support it.

SSD, I may have mixed up the names. I’ll try to look it up again.