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how about if im NOT left wing and i just dont like seeing people jump on people?
Then you should still make sure somebody is actually jumping on somebody else before you rush in and tackle the perceived offender.
I resent the reference
I’ve noticed.
Suffice to say (I hope) that it was not an integral part of my point, and I was not trying to “explain” anything with it.
When you put it like that, no.
right now im just waiting for mw to tell me that really he wasnt calling me left wing at all he was just bringing in that example arbitrarily
Arbitrarily is a bit strong; I was pointing out that posters who are more RW are sometimes assumed to be attacking people, and posters who are more LW are sometimes assumed to be attacking beliefs/practices. Now, that assuming is usually done by whoever it is that they’re arguing with – which is usually members of the other camp.
But rest assured, neither the RW nor the LW have a monopoly on mistaken assumptions.
At this point i am highly offended
You take offense rather easily, don’t you? Both for yourself, and for others…
SL, I don’t think you’re siding with zdad. I think it’s pretty clear you have not voiced an opinion on the discussion vis-a-vis gebrokts.
But I do think you assumed me to be attacking zdad personally (and therefore responded, to some extent, in kind) mistakenly. Sure, I vehemently opposed his arguments; but that it not the same as attacking somebody personally.
SL:
If you are sitting on a bench and i spit at you and then your friend spits at me, your friend and I are not both guilty of the same behaviors.
Agreed (although two wrongs still don’t make a right). But here’s the thing – nowhere did I spit at zdad. Sure, I vehemently disagreed with his opinion, but I did not insult him, I did not “target” him personally, and I did not cast aspersions as to what his motives are.
Here in the CR, sometimes the the more “left-wing” posters can be a bit quick to assume that the “right-wingers” are attacking somebody personally when that’s not necessarily the case. (And the RWers are indeed sometimes a bit quick to assume the LWers are attacking articles of faith or practices which they hold dear.) And while neither of these generalizations have no basis in reality, I strongly believe that each post and each poster should be evaluated and responded to based on their own merits.
I enjoy an intellectual back and forth as much (if not more) than the next CRer; especially when we’re discussing things that actually matter. I am passionate about what I believe in, and I will defend it accordingly. But nowhere did I mean for this conversation, or any other, to turn into personal mud-slinging. I thought I had made that clear till now, in this topic and in every other; but if not, then let this clear the water.
NC:
I really hope no argument persists between mw and Syag
+1
SL:
The funny thing is, your comments about me have been far more personal than my comments about zahavasdad. You have accused me of using zdad “as target practice”, of “disregarding” him personally, and insinuated that I am motivated by “the yetzer hara”. (All of which I categorically deny, btw.) I accused zdad only of advancing an argument that he himself does not believe in (which I stand by).
Now, I must admit, I am somewhat tempted to throw your accusations right back at you. Perhaps I should accuse you of “using me as target practice because you understand all these comments to be attacks on people , and since you know for a fact you aren’t mistaken its almost an obligation; I think Hashem gives extra points for that”. Of being unable “to know the difference between disregarding information and disregarding the person giving it, in a way that turns my stomach”. To insinuate that you are not living up to what “i tell my children and students when they display these same behaviors; that we have an obligation to treat people respectfully because that’s what Hashem wants from us”. And of suggesting that “when pesach is over and the yetzer hora lessens his grip” on you then maybe, just maybe, you can be reasonable.
But I won’t.
Because even though I by no means appreciate you casting aspersions on my intentions, I am still able to recognize that you were not attempting to attack me personally. That you have a right to disagree with everything I say, and not have your comments misconstrued as “disregarding people”.
But I’d appreciate if that same favor was extended to me.
zahavasdad:
there is one individual who i would have a very differnet reaction to if it was un-moderated
I, for one, am glad that this site’s mods do indeed enforce some basic civility; it enables us (at least theoretically) to actually discuss issues instead of just calling each other names.
frumnotyeshivish:
Mw13- “the problem” isn’t that people don’t bruk. The problem per the op is that there are people using an important albeit silly minhag as an excuse or reason to hurt people.
No, that’s your spin on the OP. What the OP was actually dealing with was the possible inability of a person to eat by his in-laws due to differences in minhagim. Nobody is using any minhag to hurt anybody else, unless you buy zdad’s theory.
DY:
but if in-laws are so selfish that they won’t accommodate their children’s minhag, there’s a much deeper issue than gebrokts.
+1. I hope that most people consider having their children by them for yomtov is a higher priority than having matazah meal.
zdad:
Another simple question: Do you concede that somebody buying exclusively gebrokts products drives the prices of non-gebrokts products up the same (beyond negligible) amount that buying only non-gebrokts drives up the prices of gebrokts? It’s a simple yes or no question that you have consistently evaded.
And if the answer is yes (which I see no reason to doubt), then aren’t we all equally of “causing people to purchase more expensive non-gebrachs you are taking food away from poor single mothers with kids money for food to support your shitta. Shittos arent in a vaccuum, Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lo Zeh and you are causing these people to starve“?
As Avi K put, the witness will answer the question…
SL, my point here was not to try to defend Judaism from what you perceive as my perception that zdad is attacking it. Truth is, I don’t think anybody else here believes that the keeping gebrokts is affecting anybody else in any discernible way.
My point was that even zdad himself doesn’t honestly believe the point that he was making. If he did, the argument would cut both ways. The fact that he continues to spout this argument as a reason to discontinue the minhag of gebrokts, while completely burying his head in the sand about the fact that this argument can just as easily obligate everyone to eat only non-gebrokts, shows that he himself doesn’t really believe this argument to be true.
Btw, this was for (or at least, inspired by) you
…which, of course, is why it is necessary for absolutely everyone to purchase only non-gebrokts food. Otherwise, they will be much, much too expensive for all of those poor widows and orphans who can’t bake to afford. They will literally starve.
So in a nutshell, anybody who buys gebrokts is a murderer.
Just because this thread was bumped by nitpicker doesn’t mean we all need to nitpick…
Wolf, I think its pretty clear mik5 meant what DY said.
zdad:
I have no obligation to lower the prices for your Chumra, especially if I dont belive in it.
I have no obligation to lower the prices for your Kullah, especially if I don’t believe in it.
And what happened to your concern for all of the poor, starving widows and orphans?
Wisey:
You’re not allowed to have someone else’s chometz in your reshus either. That’s why we rent out our cabinets/houses to the goy who buys our chametz.
Joseph:
Where can these three letters (“He’s on the record as citing Rav Moshe for things that turned out to be patently not correct”, “There’s even a letter from Rav Moshe Sherer calling out numerous instances, both during Rav Moshe’s lifetime and afterwards, when he distorted the view of Rav Moshe”, “Rav Moshe had a letter written on MTJ’s letterhead informing the legislator that his view was the opposite of what his SIL claimed”) be found?
frumnotyeshivish:
Even silly minhagim should be respected, though, when it comes to chometz on pesach.
Don’t you think that calling it silly is, by definition, not respecting it?
hataras nedarim works
Again: do you think hataras nedarim should also solve the “problem” of second day yomtov?
zdad:
I rarely shop at regular stores anymore so I didnt see anyone buy chametz on Pesach and If I was driving past such a person walking into the stop and Shop or key food, I wouldnt have known they were jewish
You have only sidestepped the question, so I’ll tweak it a bit: would it bother you as much when if you would see somebody buying chometz on Pessach as it apparently does when you see “Matzah bags” for sale?
By causing people to purchase more expensive non-gebrachs you are taking food away from poor single mothers with kids money for food to support your chumra. Chumra arent in a vaccuum, Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lo Zeh and you are causing these people to starve
As I have conclusively proven above, according to your logic, by not buying non-gebrokts products you are making them more expensive. By causing the non-gebrokts food that people purchase to become more expensives you are taking food away from poor single mothers with kids money for food to support your kullah. Kullos arent in a vaccuum, Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lo Zeh and you are causing these people to starve.
You wicked person you, starving widows and orphans like that.
maybe look into some of the more mystical reasons for not eating chametz
I actually saw a fascinating pshat from the Ramchal in Derech HaShem: He says that chometz is symbolic of the “extras” in physicality – by leaving the bread to rise for extra time, we add extra flavor and texture to it. And at this sensitive spiritual time for us, when are being born as a spiritual nation, we must abstain from the “extras” of pysicality so as to be exclusively focused on the spiritual.
I found this to be a nice thought to bear in mind this time of yomtov, when eating Matza is starting to lose its novelty and the food selection available can sometimes seem somewhat boring – we are supposed to be training ourselves to not focus on the “extras” of physicality such as taste and texture, but rather on more important spiritual matters.
mik5:
Thank you for that Halachic compilation.
kitniyos are not permitted to be eaten erev pesach after zman issur achila.
Source? (Not challenging, just inquiring.)
Avi K:
No, I was explaining the concept of gezera/chumra in general. As far as I’m aware, nobody (here or elsewhere) has suggested making a gezera on kitniyos.
Also see:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/whats-with-the-left-wing-and-kitniyos#post-563775
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/whats-with-the-left-wing-and-kitniyos#post-563803
zdad:
I have as much right to better/cheaper food as someone has the right not to eat Gebrachs
And I have as much right to better/cheaper non-gebrokts food as someone has the right to eat gebrokts. Therefore, you are obligated to buy non-gebrokts food so as to make my non-gebrokts food better and cheaper.
zdad, just out of curiosity, does it bother as much when you see somebody buying chometz on Pessach as it apparently does when you see “Matzah bags” for sale?
Syag Lchochma:
You know, I was about to write a knee-jerk retort about ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? being one of the lessons of the Seder when I caught myself. You’re right, we should be this involved in learning the lessons and Torah of Pessach as we are in this discussion.
Mods, is there a record for a most (self) edited post? 😉
Avi K:
MW, you are correct
So we do agree on something 🙂
However, it is also offensive, presumptuous, and frankly just ridiculous for anyone in any generation to look for chumrot
I don’t believe that to (necessarily) be true. To casually dismiss a practice that large segments of Klal Yisroel have been adhering to for so many generations is an issue. But to say that we today may need a particular extra safeguard today so that people don’t ch”v end up violating actual prohibitions is something Chazal and their successors have been charged with doing since time immemorial, as stated in the very first Mishnah in Pirkei Avos: ??? ??? ?????.
zd:
companies are forced to make only non-gebroachs items
Funny, ’cause I seem to recall there being a gebrokts section in my local kosher grocery… must have been my imagination.
But seriously, if you honestly expect everyone to follow the most lenient opinion on everything just to give companies an incentive to make better/cheaper food for you, I have nothing left to say to you. We clearly do not share enough common assumptions and attitudes to be able to have a real conversation.
lesschumras:
DY:
Did they force you to buy that too?
No, but it caused him so much emotional distress just seeing that stuff on the store shelves that everybody should be banned from using anything even remotely like that so as not to ch”v hurt anybody else’s feelings.
Sam2:
Yom Tov Sheni is a Din D’Rabannan, even if the origin was a “Minhag”.
I thought it was the other way around; a Minhag with an origin in an Isser Di’Rabbanan. This is why it goes by where you live, like all minhagim do, as opposed to where you currently are.
Sam2, would you agree that there is an issur to do melachah on the second day of yomtov? And if so, why is this different?
frumnotyeshivish:
Gebrokst is really a silly chumra/minhag. Hataras nedarim should solve the problem.
I join DY in thinking that it is offensive, presumptuous, and frankly just ridiculous for anyone in today’s generation to disparage a minhag that vast portions of Klal Yisroel have been adhering to for over a thousand years. Who do you think you are?
Tell me, do you think hataras nedarim should also solve the “problem” of second day yomtov?
charliehall:
Wheat, barley, and oats are three of the Five Grains. They have nothing to do with kitniyot.
You are missing the forest for the trees. The point here is that cross-contamination of different grains is still very much an issue in today’s day and age. That all of the grains mentioned in the Cheerios story happen to have the same Halachic status is irrelevant.
The reason we Ashkenazim don’t eat kitniyot is because it is one of our longstanding minhagim, not because there is any issue of contamination of rice or beans with one of the Five Grains.
That’s what you say. The Mishnah Berurua, however, says something else:
“So how and why did the custom emerge to forbid Kitniyos? The reason why kitniyos were forbidden, was on account of a protective measure. The Mishnah Berurah (O.C. 453:6, 464:5) provides a few explanations:
(1) Kitniyos are harvested and processed in the same way that chametz is. The masses would confuse the two and come to permit grains for themselves.
(2) Kitniyos can also be ground and baked, just like chametz, and people might come to permit chametz grains.
(3) The Kitniyos themselves may have actual chametz mixed in. All three reasons are therefore protective in nature. The prohibition was strictly limited to consumption; one may own and derive benefit from kitniyos on Pesach.”
(Quoted from R’ Yair Hoffman’s article last year on this subject.)
Now lets move on to real issues in our community.
Some of us think Halacha shailos *are* real issues.
I’m pretty sure its spelled Lipa Schmeltzer, not Schmelczer.
Sam2:
if what Health claimed isn’t a violation of Af Atem B’chinam, then nothing is.
First of all, I think its pretty obvious that Health was not actually expecting any payment here. That statement was just part of his general bluster. (As was the case in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-zionism-the-yetzer-hora/page/6#post-607909)
But anyway, even if he would have been serious, I don’t see why the heterim that apply to paying Rebbeim (sechar battalah, chiddushei sofrim, etc) wouldn’t apply here.
LC:
The whole issue surrounding kitniyos arose because of life in agrarian Europe hundreds of years ago… that concern no longer applies.
That’s what you think.
From the back of a recently purchased box of Cheerios, reprinted without permission:
“SAME CHEERIOS, simply, GLUTEN FREE
The taste you love has always come with oats that are naturally gluten free. We’re simply making sure they stay that way.
IT STARTS with FAMILY
When Phil, a member of the Cheerios team for over 50 years, found out that his daughter-in-law couldn’t eat gluten, he knew his team had to find a way to make sure every family, including his, could share breakfast together. Since oats are naturally gluten free, the only problem was finding a way to make sure they didn’t get mixed up with anything else.
THE JOURNEY from FIELD to BOWL
Most of the farmers who grow oats for Cheerios also grow wheat and barley, which aren’t gluten free. Sometimes, those grains get mixed together in the fields or on the farm, so, to make Cheerios gluten free, we had to separate them. It took a lot of late nights and hard work, but we finally discovered a way to sort the other grains out of our oats.”
My personal minhag is not to eat gebrokts, but not to be makpid on gebrokts keillim. However, if one who does have the minhag not to eat from gebrokts keillim, I don’t think it is appropriate for them to have to compromise on their practices. And as DY insinuated, I think most normal in-laws wouldn’t mind giving up on gebrokts if that’s the only way their family can spend Pessach together.
dovrosenbaum:
I don’t see why people who keep perfectly KFP homes and who brok should have to do backflips to accommodate “machmirim.”
They don’t, unless they happen to want those said “machmirim” to spend Pessach with them.
DSY, I attempted to post links to the websites of the Yeshivos that I had mentioned, but as you can see all that ended being posted was link removed. Guess I should have seen that coming. Still, nothing a couple of minutes on Google won’t solve.
Have you looked into Yeshivas Ohr Reuven of Monsey?
Or Rabbi Zweig’s yeshiva in Maimi?
link removed
Okiale, let me introduce you to the ultimate zmanim resource: https://www.myzmanim.com/
Sorry this comes to late to be of use for biur chametz, but I’m sure it’ll come in handy some other time.
Anyone can indeed attend a tisch. I have done so myself numerous times, and I am not at all Chasidish. However, make sure to follow protocol (which is mostly just common sense) so as not to annoy or offend the participants.
It should be noted that Satmar is a particularly insular sect of Chasidus, and while I’m sure they will in no way object to you attending their events, it may pay to start by a more tourist-friendly group. However, as I have had very little exposure to the gongs-on in BP, I cannot suggest any group in particular myself. Maybe somebody else here can…
Wolf, my comment was not in any way directed at nishtdayngesheft.
It always strikes me as somewhat contradictory when people use “bein adam li’chavero” to bash somebody else’s minhag…
Sam2:
“I think everyone agrees that if giving away land would guarantee peace, then we should give away land.”
I wonder what Avi K thinks about that…
Here’s a thought – mods, would you consider blocking any part of Health or Avi K’s comments that address each other? Their juvenile bickering is getting out of hand…
ROB –
Just out of curiousity, at what point would you refrain from drinking a fellow Jew’s wine?
And would you similarly oppose the attitude of excluding members of Neturei Karta from the klal?
About waiting three hours: I always thought that the reason was because in Germany they would have a small meal at teatime in between lunch and supper, so “bein seudah li’seudah” was never longer than three hours for them.
Also, my yekkishe friends tell me that R’ Shimon Schwab was a proponent of waiting the full six hours, even for those with the minhag to wait three, because in America we only have three meals.
Joseph:
I mean what does the 5.5 into the 6th mean? They start eating milichigs 5.5 hours after the last bite of fleishigs? Who has this minhag?
This minhag is actually the official policy of BMG and fairly common in the greater Lakewood community. I’m told that this is because that is how R’ Ahron Kotler held.
At risk of getting sucked into this increasing toxic cesspool, I’d like to address one narrow point…
Avi K:
Would you sell a pen to a non-observant Jew?
There is a factor that you have not addressed that I believe greatly impacts this question. If an irreligious Jew (or a religious one, for that matter) has no other way of doing an action that is contrary to halacha unless you help him, you are not allowed to enable him to do so. That would be mesaya li’yeday aveira. However, if the said person will be able to violate the halacha even if you do not help him, there is no issur of lifnei iver lo siten michshol.
Children, fight nicely…
simcha613 – Check out the Dirshu M”B on ???? ??”? footnote 8, they have a whole write-up on this. In nutshell: One should not hold more than three (or really, two and a half) matzos when making the brachos, but one must eat two kezaysim from the matzos that the brachos were made on. Therefore, R’ Moshe, R’ Bentzion Abba Shaul, R’ Elyashiv, and R’ Nissin Karelitz say one should give every person two or three (again, really two and a half) matzos to make their own brachos on, or two or three matzos for every two or three people to be yotzei together. However, R’ Shlomo Zalman and R’ Chaim Kanievsky say it is good enough to give every person a small piece of the top and middle matza, and they can eat the rest of two kezaysim from other matza (however, the Brisker Rov held that one should eat from matzos that were on the table during the haggadah to to “lechem onei”).
All of ’em. Somebody having a seder by himself is actually supposed to ask himself the mah nishtana.
The most important part of “Orthodox clothing” is the yarmulke/kippa for the boys, and dressing modestly for the girls. The rest of what we wear changes by the culture that we belong to; so on this part, Modern Orthodox and Yeshivish dress norms may vary.
If you’re looking for Seforim, the Mesilas Yesharim (available with an English translation at any Judaica store or online) is a great one to start with.
But as others have pointed out, this is a journey that can become difficult and confusing if attempted alone. Try reaching out to a local Orthodox Rabbi who will be able to guide you along, and who will be able to give advice tailor-fit for your specific situation.
In the interm, there are several great websites that can help you more about Orthodox Judaism, among them aish.com (especially their Judaism 101 section) jewishpathways.com.
May Hashem grant you much hatlocha on your path, and don’t hesitate to ask anything else here!
First of all, kudos to you for looking out for the emotional and spiritual good of your son, even if money is tight.
Most Yeshiva high schools charge about 10 – 15 thousand dollars for tuition. (This is not so that they can make exorbitant profits – it just costs a lot to run a school.) However, my impression is that most schools will settle for between 4 – 6 thousand in a case of legitimate financial need. However, if you’d like people to list specific schools where they think this might be the case, it might be a good idea to try to describe what type of background your son is coming from and what type of school he’d like to attend.
Trump is certainly crazy. Smart is up for debate. (Not that Hillary is a great choice for President, either.) He’s either a madman, or very good at acting like a madman. His pronouncements are all empty populist bluster. He has no plans on how to accomplish any of his goals, and his goals seem to be based mostly on whim.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/vermin-supreme-for-president
Source? I remember seeing somebody bring a raya from the story with Abaye on top of Megillah 7b that its OK.
R’ Shlomo Zalman (Halichos Shlomo, Tefilah, 8:3) paskens it is assur to daven shemonah esray while driving a car since one is constantly preoccupied with driving. He also points out that doing so could lead to saknos nefashos.
Actually, a chassidesh friend of mine once told me that his Rebbe spoke out against talking on the phone in the street (for men). It was much harder to get a hold of him after that.
But on a more serious note, as I pointed out in the “Why can’t guys sleep late” thread, the different natures and/or roles of men and women will naturally result in different religious obligations for members of each gender. Girls have to dress a certain way – guys have to get up a certain time. Girls are apparently encouraged to act in a calm and refined in the streets – guys are discouraged from visiting malls/parks/etc where women are immodestly dressed. Girls are apparently encouraged to not go outside unnecessarily – guys are encouraged to learn 8-10 hours a day. The list goes on. Therefore, it is not logical to complain if one side has one particular obligation or prohibition that the other does not. Just because something is right or wrong for members of one gender does not mean that that is automatically true for the other. Each has their own role to play, and their own way to serve Hashem.
Avram in MD:
+1