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MrSarahLevine613Participant
Although i agree with RebYidd that this is a “false dilemma” — if i were to take the question seriously, i believe the answer to these things is what are you replacing it (e.g. sports) with. Even though i think that people here when they say “bittul zman/bittul torah” are saying it “tounge in cheek” (maybe) — when you say it to a kid or adult — they dont often say — right — what was i thinking — back to the beis medrash. Either you believe in leisure time or you dont. If someone enjoys painting (even if the are not a good artist) is better/worse than someone who enjoys watching sports? Is Jazz worse than classical? Maybe if its not assur — its permitted. (I am aware of the Ramban on kedoshim tehyu). Therse are rhetorical questions for the most part.
MrSarahLevine613Participant“In most shuls, the hierarchy of awarding kibbudim is almost always an unwritten hybrid policy of the chiyuv of individuals per halacha, the “status” of the individual in the shul’s/minyan’s informal ranking of daveners that often goes beyond just member/non-member and in many cases, the mood of the gabbai at a particular point in time. ”
In our shul, there is a written policy. I dont recall it exactly but i think that chiyuvim get precedence — but members over non members over guests etc. Something like that. It makes total sense. Im sure feeling may have been hurt at some point – but the Rav estabished the protocol and wrote it down so all the minyanim would be consistent.
“I don’t think it’s about the kibbudim. It’s about feeling welcome, noticed, and a part of the shul.”
I think thats 100% correct. Giving someone a kibbud (guest, newcome) acknowledges their presence in a concrete way. The same can be done by announcing the presence of the preson. This really depends on the shul. In Brooklyn, Lakewood, Monsey , Israel — there are som many shuls and so many guests — that it would be unreasonable to expect that the Gabbai or Rov would notice them. Out of town shuls — or my shul (which is not out of town) people would notice you and ackonwledge/welcome you. (I should say that recently i was in Monsey — i dont even recall the name of the shul — but it was pretty big — and many people came up to me after davening on shabbos. Very nice).
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantMrs sarah levine is half right re Long Island.
The first minyan is geared to the train schedule and is faster. The second minyan starts over an hour later and is not geared to the schedule. We’ve had retirees complain the first minyan is too fast. They were told adapt or go to the second minyan.There is only one shul 🙂
I mixed my metaphors. Where i live there is no train. The four minyanim get progressively slower.
On LI — my understanding is that there are minyanim that are linked to the train schedule. If that is true — especially with minyanim that start pretty early — you will, by necessity, get faster minyanim.
I have never done the study — but it would appear to me that most shuls that i go to (which happen to be MO) are 30 minutes exactly.
In Passaic — there is a shul that has a sign on the amud directing the Shatz to take at least 6 minutes (I think) for shemoneh esrei.
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantShuls can operate in one of two basic ways. They can fund raise with no expectations. In NJ, some non-orthodox synagogues have gone to this model believing that people were not joining because they didnt want to pay money. (This is not an invite to discuss that issue — im just saying the thought process). Chabad shuls have this construct for the most part — where there are no dues — and the local rabbi raises money. The second model is that there is a budget — and that dues are set to meet the budget. In modern orthodox shuls or out of town shuls that have full time/full paid rabbis — it is hard to do so without having a predictible source of income. (There are benefits that come with membership but the main point of membership is to pay the rabbi, pay the youth leaders and keep the heat and the lights on.)
MrSarahLevine613Participant” Unfortunately, most use vague references to “Arabia”, the “Arabian Empire” etc. which could be anywhere within 800-1200 miles.”
If you Google the Jabal al lawz, youll see articles both ways. I never thought it particularly mattered. Its interesting none the less. (There is an archeological site in SA for Jabal al lawz.)
MrSarahLevine613Participant“Breuers I believe was the first American shul to start relying on kulos and doing Ma’ariv right after Mincha. I believe everyone else started when half of Monsey would pack into KAJ every evening.”
Anecdotally — it appears that in Israel most of the shuls i went to do not daven consecutively — even dati leumi. But maybe i just picked the wrong shuls.
I think that the pace of davening may have something to do with working/commuting. On Long Island the pace of davening (right or wrong) is dictated by the train. In our shul, we have four minyanim in the morning. There is an inverse relationship between how early and how fast. Minyan 1 finishes (on TWF) in about 27 minutes. Minyan 4 finishes in about 40 minutes. In Israel, as well it seems that shacharis takes longer (although it is a little longer anyway).
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantIn the “Gold of Exodous” by Howard Blum, he argues that Har Sinai is in Saudi Arabia. He also maintains in the book that he found Elim.
January 2, 2019 10:34 am at 10:34 am in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1656156MrSarahLevine613ParticipantNeville:
1.”MrSarah: You failed the first time to convince people that having hakaras hatov towards soldiers is synonymous with leaving Yeshiva and joining the IDF. What makes you think it’s going to work to restate it?”
I dont think that i ever said anyone should “necessarily” leave Yeshiva. I still do not understand sitting on the sidelines and not sharing communcal responsiblity. I do believe that there should be a certain amount of exemptions (like a poster pointed out they do for others). I do agree i shouldnt repeat my self. Maybe its something about liking the sound of my own voice.
2. “And, again, you keep stating these cases where the state became less anti-yiddishkeit as though they just happened magically or by an unprecedented sign of rachmanus by the chilonim. How can you possibly believe any of that progress would have been made if the chareidim were complacent with the whims of the Zionists like you would want?”
I agree with you. I believe people should advocate for what they believe is right.
As you have pointed out — I do NOT share your point of view about the “chilonim” and I do not share (believe it or not) an “us v. them” mentality. The charedi world in Israel has been able to flourish BECAUSE of the government in the last 40 years not in spite of it. (I dont expect you to agree — but I think the facts are on my side). You are correct that the Charedim have (for the most part) played their political card correctly (with respect to their interests).
I am done with accepting the term Zionist as a derogatory term. What it meant in 1880 is not what it means now — despite your insistence. Believing as I do that the return to Israel of the Jewish People is part of the Jewish destiny — and that the State is playing a role in that — is Zionism. The Zionism of the 19th Century is more or less gone. I would argue (not here, not now), however, that even classical Zionism has a current value — and should be encouraged in those who are not observant. (The Baal Teshuva movement — of which i am a member — is important but statistically very small — and thus keeping others in the fold is crucial).
January 1, 2019 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1655886MrSarahLevine613ParticipantAviK “MrSarah, why can’t they do their service in DF battei midrash, give shiurim to soldiers, etc.?”
You can. In fact, only one third of soldiers are combat soldiers.
BTW — as i have said previously — i am not even against the deferrals/ or the other p’turim. If that is the deal that is made with the government so be it. (This whole system is not only the doing of the charedi parties but it is also — if not mostly the doing of the larger parties who wanted coalitions). As you know — i have a heightened sensitivity to this. My son — albeit by choice — was on the front lines. He learned 2 years in Yeshiva in israel and then chose to serve in a combat unit. I was upset that at the time funerals were going on — there were protests against the army. While i dont know what form ha’karat hatov should be in for those who risk their lives — i believe there should be hakrat ha tov. (For example, i thought that the Charedi leadership should have publically and clearly denounced anyone who attacked verbally or otherwise a soldier. I am not aware such was done — even if they believe such acts are wrong. And, it does not only happen in Meah Shearim) .
January 1, 2019 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1655129MrSarahLevine613ParticipantJust to be clear. Homosexual acts are a halachic issue. (You are aware of R. A. Feldman’s letter on this subject — and his approach is consistent with what i wrote — or meant to write — above).
agreed – 29January 1, 2019 10:37 am at 10:37 am in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1655020MrSarahLevine613ParticipantI cannot go back and read 199 posts. I did find some of the posts depressing. My point was that when Charedi soldiers died — there were protests — in essence — against the army. When my son served in Nahal Charedi — he did not say — i will protect these but not those. To not have the most minimal hakarat hatov to the soldiers — at least to me — is stunning. I guess its not a shared value. I thought its otherwise. I . A few other points:
1. Olympic and pro Athletes and celebs do get a modified service. I see no reason why they should not do the same for the top yeshiva students.
2.There is a tendency for the Yeshiva World (i know that is a sweeping generalization) to fight the battles of yesterday. Israel is not the same that it was in 1948. Yossi Klein talks about this — when he says that after 1967, the State became a religious state. Obviously, Israel is not a communist state. The kibbutzim are gone. There has been a bit of Darwinism — as the tenor of the people is more religious. For example, small things. Where as all the soccer games used to be played on Sat afternoon, most now are not. Jerusalem does not play on Shabbat — home or away. The Israel Soccer teams home games are never on Shabbat.
3. The army is not anti religious. You can give me anecdotes but the general tenor of the army is not anti at all. Certainly in Nahal Haredi — all accomodations are made. Most of the kids who are not religious in NH appear to have come in that way. Many — with the help of Netzach Yehuda (the amuta) — come out stronger religiously or re-enter their communities.
4. Totally a side point — but a reaction to one of the posts. I would assume anyone who calls homosexuals by pejorative names, does not have a close family member who is a homosexual. Moreover, i would assume that anyone who uses derogatory terms is not a Rov of a shul where there are homosexuals in the shul. The Rov of my shul told me that in our shul of 400 people — there are at least 5 homosexuals.
Disclaimer: Not condoning perjoratives but homosexuality is a halachik issue, not a pc one, whether in your family or congregation or elsewhere.
January 1, 2019 10:24 am at 10:24 am in reply to: Can the “right” of modern Orthodoxy be saved while the “left” has left? #1655022MrSarahLevine613Participant“Many MO youth are leaving Yiddishkeit in droves.”
May be true.
I had written about this previously in Is Yeshiva World Right thread.
There is a study of the Modern Orthodox community — which I cannot link to — but you can find easily. It is by Nishma. Page 9.
The survey concludes “Children on the left are becoming much less observant than their parents.”
The survey also notes that 1/3 MO are less observant, 1/3 are More and 1/3 of the same. I am not sure that would differ from any population. And — i am not sure what less observant means. For me, i have one child who i consider more observant. I have one who i consider less but his wife covers her hair and they are shomer kashrut/shabbat. Maybe i just should not “consider”?
I had written whether when MO kids leave MO — what happens to them. Do they intermarry? Do they just become non orthodox? Do they send to day school? But for the most part — i think (with no evidence) that they live middle class/upper class “normal” lives. I would think that in the Yeshivishe world that when kids leave they leave for drugs, alcohol or a “harder life”? Am I right? Is there any evidence?
December 25, 2018 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1651796MrSarahLevine613ParticipantAviK: I was referring to my postings in “Is the Yeshiva Community Wrong?”
December 21, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1649080MrSarahLevine613Participant“This young man was not killed in battle. He was killed patroling the territories where idf soldiers do not belong. If the settlers want to parade around the west bank, let them do their own policing.”
Wow.
There are people who agree with you regarding whether Jews should live in territories that were not under our control prior to 1967. Obviously much has been written about this issue. I have nothing to add that has not been said.
I am curious whether you believe whether people who “parade around” the Old City of Jerusalem, Ramat Eshkol, Chevron, Maale Adumim and the Gush should also do their own policing ? If not — how do you draw the distinction?
December 21, 2018 11:40 am at 11:40 am in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1649069MrSarahLevine613ParticipantMrSarahLevine613 is a “mister”. (I apologize. I explained in another post how this happened. But — indeed — i am a he.)
December 21, 2018 11:40 am at 11:40 am in reply to: Disappointing event for my son and family #1649066MrSarahLevine613Participant“There’s no question that it’s more likely for new BT’s to go back off the derech than it is for FFB’s to go off the derech. ”
Do you think so? It could be — i am not sure?
Do we have an off the derech percentage? (The MO Study talked about the issue but didnt really come to a percentage number if i recall correctly).
What is “new” — 1 to 5 years? I am sure there is no real available data on this — but its an interesting question.December 21, 2018 8:14 am at 8:14 am in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1648969MrSarahLevine613ParticipantTo all:
I considered answering each of the comments in turn but — I concluded that would not make for a great read and would, at best, appear disjointed. However, as i read through the comments — i would like a shot to answer some of them. So…in no particular order…and with answering only the arguments I remember, here goes.
As an initial matter — and on a personal note — i have been (binge) listening to a podcast on the History of World War II. It is excellent, although — at 225 plus episodes, it feels longer than the war. It was while listening to the podcast that i finally understood the moniker Neville Chaim Berlin. So — i have been responding to NCB for a while and never got it. On that basis alone, you would be correct in assuming I am not among the best and brightest.
1. By way of introduction — quick introduction — I am from a non-orthodox home. I did not go to yeshiva hs. i am a YU grad. I am an ivy league graduate school grad. Among my children is a charedi daughter (and SIL), modern orthodox son (who served in Netzach) and DIL, and neo-Chasidic son who will be serving in army — in Hesder. There are others too.
2. To answer NCB, I dont want anyone to die. I was literally nauseous during my son’s service. It is obvious, that if the charedi boys dont serve — someone has to. I said — and will say again — that if the government wants to do a deal and allow deferments thats fine with me. I am always surprised that people dont agree that there should be a shared responsibility to serve in the army. And while i know that people disagree with me — i dont believe that that responsibility is fulfilled by learning. (Nonetheless, I agree that there is room to have exemptions for some to learn, study, etc. They give exemptions for sports — I dont see why learning is different. But for all? — I am not so sure.)
3. My son served in Netzach. It is true that not all the boys in this particular unit are religious. Most of the non religious ones came into the army that way. They are from religious homes but had long gone away from observance. Sometimes there parents required them to go to Netzach — while others did not feel comfortable going elsewhere even though they were no longer religious. On the other hand, a good amount mature and become part of the community as a result of the army. I saw that with my son’s friends. Most are religious and regular young men. They are part of the Kfir unit — the work is hard and dangerous.
4. I read above — by Horrified — that he/she is praying for me and my children. And me for him/her. Is there a particular reason that he/she is concerned about my children/grandchildren “not being Jewish.” I worry about it too.
5. In another thread — i wondered aloud which was the better (or worse) type of OTD (no longer orthodox). Was it what we seem to see more in the yeshiva community — with drugs, alcohol — but less than what we see in the MO community where kids just becoming non-religious professionals? There was a very interesting study on the modern orthodox community — that concluded that in the OO community — the kids were less religious than the parents. I assume that there is a large percentage from our MO community that leave than from the Yeshiva (not including Chasidishe) community.
6. Finally, I think that talk of Tziyonim is tired and dated. The days of true secular zionism are over — and in many ways has hurt Israel. But nonetheless, this canard that there is a majority out to destroy Torah in israel is just false. Yossi Klein HaLevi — author of Like Dreamers — argues that after the Six Day War the nature of the country became religious. I think that is true. Again — it is not a majority religious country (yet) but the attitude is far removed from the start of the state. Even small things — like soccer games which used to be all on Sat afternoon — are mostly Sat night, Sunday and Monday. Jerusalem Beitar does not play any game (home or away) on Shabbat. To point to some non existent Zionist boogey-man who is cutting of peyos — demonstrates the weakness of the argument.
Thanks.
MrSL613PS I didnt proof read this. Also — I have no ill will toward anyone — especially those who take the time to post here.
December 17, 2018 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1646223MrSarahLevine613Participant“Well the only positive thing to be said here is that SarahLevine outed herself as an MO, anti-frum extremist. They’re all the same, people. Blaming Yeshiva bochrim for soldiers being murdered… They have absolutely no shame, nothing even close to shame.”
1. I dont think that i am anti frum extremist — even though i am “modern” orthodox — whatever that particularly means in this context. I dont think that my son in law (in kollel) and my daughter in a charedi town in Israel consider me an anti-frum extremist. I think they like me. At least thats what they tell me. To that end — my son in law did NOT serve in the army. He got his deferment — legal and all. He didnt protest. He supports the army. He acts approrpriately. I dont agree with all his politics — and him mine. Thats fine with me.
2. I didnt blame the yeshiva boys for murdering the soldiers. (I looked back at what i wrote — and i didnt come close to saying that). That would be ridiculous. I complained, and continue to complain — that while the soldiers were dying while others were protesting. I looked at the juxtapostion of the protests and the funerals. I even said that i am not against the deferrments — if that is what the government wants to do — but i think there should be an acknowledgment of the good that is being done. (I wonder about how the state/army will function when the country is a majority or close to a majority charedi — but thats for another day).
December 16, 2018 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1645626MrSarahLevine613ParticipantBrisker mathematics: Eating your cake.
I shouldnt but i will. What does that even mean.
December 16, 2018 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm in reply to: The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests #1645508MrSarahLevine613Participant“The Chareidi boys serve in the Yeshiva. The soldiers should be grateful for them.”
How so? If you are going to tell me that their learning protects the soldiers — I am willing to accept that if — you sign a pledge not to go to a doctor if you are ill. Meaning — if it is just learning that works to protect — then the same should go for health. (The Mishnah is clear, as you know, that it is a combination of actual fighting with prayer). When these boys do NOT serve — someone is putting their life on the line for them. Learning in Yeshiva is the same? There is a danger? There is sacrifice other than perhaps financial? Again, i am not even saying that all of them should serve, I am just saying that the community should be grateful that others are literally giving of their lives — for them.
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantI dont know that it bothers anyone. I think that people consider welfare/food stamps a “safety net.” These programs are to make sure that people do not starve or become homeless. To that extent, they are good. I think that people object to the use of these programs without the individual trying to be self supportive. I assume that it is the objection. (Obviously fraud is a different topic). (There is also the problem that some programs are disinstentive to work. I had a friend with a special needs child. He told me that if he made $1 dollar more than a certain amount — he would lose $50,000 in benefits. It is in resposne to those stories, that people seek welfare reform.)
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantThis issue — i think is a little more complicated. (And, i dont know the answer). What is the amount of risk that you are allowed take vis a vis shabbos. (Obviously, if you drive anywhere — there is a chacne that something may happen). If you go back and look at all of the United Thursday 3pm flights and all of the El AL 1pm Thursday Flights — how many of them have not landed on time and therefore caused Chilul SHabbos. I suspect — from the press coverage — that of these 104 flights in the last year — 1 did not make it. That would be a 1% chance. Lets look at all Thursday flights to Israel. If you conclude that the chances of getting to Israel on time is 99% is that sufficient? (We do a similar calculus with elective surgery. Even though there is a certain percentage that you could die during surgery — which is always a chance with general anesthesia — we still allow elective surgery in most instances.) Thus — while I do understand that there is reason to avoid traveling on Thursday/Friday — is the chance of something going wrong hallachically significant?
MrSarahLevine613Participant“There are official, different levels of smichah as well, “shul rabbi” being the lowest.”
I assume that you are referring to — what is given in some Yeshivas — known as “rav u manhig” smicha. In YU — that doesnt exist. So — all the Rabbonim who come out are the same with respect to the semicha– although there is an extra smeicha — from the YU website — “Semikha Yadin Yadin, an advanced ordination that qualifies rabbis as poskim in Even HaEzer and Choshen Mishpat, is offered through an intensive postgraduate study program following traditional ordination.” But — the “rav umanhig” doesnt exist. Most rabbis, i think, do not have Yadin Yadin.
That being said — as with all things, doctors, lawyers, professional football players — there are better, there are worse. With all those things (except maybe professional football players) — it is not so easy to really know who is good and who is bad. (Obviously, if a Doctor is literally killing people — you may have a clue. But bad outcomes are not necessarily an indicator). This actually cuts to my “Gadol” issue. I have no problem with someone being acknoweldged as a “Gadol”. Rav Moshe. The Lubavitcher Rebbe. I dont think that i have any basis upon which to make that call — other than they were both widely accepted (albeit — there was still room for disagreement as to each of their rulings). My problem comes from when people say you must do “x” because the “Gedolim say…” This was my point with my anecdote above. These are “Gedolim” whom i didnt elect, who dont know me, probably have not come to my community, may not speak my language (literally and figureativelY), and dont know my hopes and dreams. (Okay…a little melodramatic). They may be geniuses and brilliant poskim and great people — but when they say that I cant go to YU or i must grow peyot/beard or that the IDF is “treif” — then they are obviously not speaking to me. (Of course, i may be wrong in all my “hashkafot” — maybe — but still they are not speaking to me. Rav Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe were known to be able to connect with people throughout the Orthodox spectrum.)
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantYou wrote:
“Given the context, I don’t think its so unbelievable either. What was the point the story was supposed to illustrate again?”
I forget. 🙂
Actually, my point was that, in my opinion, to be a “gadol” you have to resonate across Orthodox lines. So for example, the Debreciner Rov — when he writes in his Sheilot u Teshuvot that you cannot go to YU — in essence no is unable to speak to the YU students (or rabbis for that matter). (As an aside, i bought that set years ago at the YU Seforim sale, at the student clerk said, you can buy them but now you have to leave). I was saying that my friend (and me) would find harder to listen to a “Gadol” who does not seem to be speaking to us in any way.
To go back, one post, you wrote:
“For what I said about the MO, let me try to lay out an imaginary flow chart. First of all, there is a massive portion of the MO (I believe the majority, but you would know better) who simply never ask shailos ever.”
I dont think this is true at all. I think the Local MO Rabbis will tell you that they receive many many question, every day. You may think of “shaila” different than i do .. but I think that people ask. (I guess the Rabbis would know better than I).
You further wrote:
” Of those remaining, a significant portion may ask shailos to their local, MO shul rabbi and be content with his on-the-spot psak without any proofs from major poskim. This thread also doesn’t apply to that group. Finally, you are left with a tiny niche in the MO that actually asks shailos regularly, and expects the psak’s to be well-based in halachic reasoning, and escalated to more experienced poskim if need be.”
You believe that there is a necessity to go beyond the Shul Rabbi. Why? The Shul Rabbi may have a responsiblity to check with others — but even that is disputed among Rabbis. (I know the Rav Moshe story that he included his phone number along with klaf smicha).
I went to a non NY shul years ago where the Rov — who was a Yeshiva graduate not a YU guy — disputed that he was required to have the Eruv constructed by another Rov. He said basically that he was the halachic authority for that town. I have asked my Rabbi questions — and when i dont like the answer — i tell him i dont like the answer. This happened once — and he said to me — would you like me to ask Rav X. I said — i appreciate the offer — and with all respect — please do. He called me back an hour later — and he said “Rav X agrees with you. In fact, Rav X said more leniently than you and you should follow Rav X.:
Back to the Gadol issue. I think that, we in the MO community — do recognize “greatness” or “leading lights”. Years back, when Rav Asher Weiss spoke in the US — and I admittedly did not really know who he was — the MO shul was packed for him. I guess the difference is that the MO community does not feel bound by, certainly the non-halachic prouncements. (As to Halacha — the yeshiva world doesnt follow “the” gadol necessarily. — i dont think the Yeshiva world always followed Rav Moshe or Rav Shlomo Zalman. There is more autonomy than people think).
MrSarahLevine613Participant“here aren’t enough details for me to assess the likelihood. If his shailah was, “should I grow a beard and peyes,” then, yes, it is very believable. If his shailah was, “XYZ happened do this dish, is it still kosher?” Then it’s a little harder to believe. However, I’m assuming he went to a Chassidishe Rebbe with some kind of generalized, spiritual guidance (non-halachic) question and was taken aback when the rabbi gave an actual halachic shittah; is that what it was?”
You dont need to assess the likelihood…i told you it was true. Isnt that enough? 🙂 Without going into more details than necessary — your assumption is more or less correct.
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantNeville:
“I imagine your friend refused to grow a beard anyway (assuming that story is actually true)?”
1. He did not grow a beard.
2.The story is true — and not so unbelievable. He actually told him that he should have beard, peyot and wear long sleeves. Maybe the “Rabbi” was kidding — I wasnt there. I heard it first hand.“I’m not sure what place the MO has in this discussion. If the words of rabbonim are meaningless to you unless you like what they’re saying then you have no stake in the concept of “gadol hador.””
Come on. I like you and your posting. A little disappointed with this. Nonetheless…who said the words of rabbonim are meaningless to me? Did I? (I admittedly have a problem with the expansion of “Daas Torah” which of course, is an old, (too) much written about topic). I speak with my Rov all the time and seek out his input. Why not? He is a smart person. I know him to have integrity and he knows me. I dont think that he expects me to “listen” to him in non Halachic matters — but i think his point of view is valuable.
What is the concept of Gadol Hador? That was my question? Is it the most learned person of the generation? Is it the halachic posek of the generation? Is it the most admired Rabbinic figure of the generation? As i said at the beginning of my post, “Gadol HaDor” is undefined. My point was that if there is to be ONE Gadol HaDor that person would have to have the ability to cut across lines. I posited that Rav Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe seemed to have this ability.
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantLike many of these discussions, the answer wholly depends on the “definition”. So — in one sense AY is correct, “regarding gadlus ba’Torah [t]he opinion of laymen, of frum professionals, or various shul rabbis is immaterial.” It is meaningless for someone who is not a doctor to opine on who the best doctor is — when it comes to medical knowledge and accumen. However, laymen can give opinions on who is the best doctor when it comes to bedside manner, thoroughness, or attentiveness. I do not have the credentials to determine who knows the most Torah etc. But, i dont think Gadol Ha-Dor, as it is used, means the person with the most knowledge. I understand it to mean who is the leader of the generation that cuts across the spectrum. Certainly , Rav Moshe Feinstein fit the bill. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach also came close. I dont think that its clear that there is always such a person at any given time.
My charedi child often gives me a hard time on my not having “emunas chachomim” or whatever phrase you prefer (da’as Torah). My friend went to go see a very well known Rabbi in Israel. My friend is a prominent professional and is — for lack of a better description — right wing modern orthodox. He has neither has a beard or a hat. The Rabbi advised him — if i recall the story — to grow peyot and a beard. Why am I bringing this up — and what does this have to do with Gadol HaDor or Emunas Chachomim? It would seem to me — that if you are going to be the Rabbi of All (the Gadol HaDor) then you have to “earn” (maybe there is a better word) — the acceptance of all. If you dont get the acceptance of all and you dont resonate with the greatest number of people (at least within the Orthodox world), then I think the title is not fitting. And most importantly, if i dont believe that a certain Rov understands me — or understands my world — then I do not think that I would/could accept him (whatever that means) as the Gadol Hador. To that end, Rav Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe apparently both had the ability to understand the world outside their own enclaves.
MrSarahLevine613ParticipantBecause we often “forfeit” our freedom of speech or bargain it away. When we work in a company — “freedom of speech” is not protected – not only because obviously the “freedom of speech” is protected (as you stated) only from governmental action — but because we make a deal with the employer. I will give you a job and you will not do anything that i believe is against the interests of the company. (Some states do protect employers from being fired because of the employee’s particular views). When you go to a yeshivshe school — you agree to wear a jacket or hat or stockings or flats. You are giving up this “right” in order to gain admission to the school. A student has (and rightfully so — very few “rights” in school).
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