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“I hear your question, but the statistics show the chances of a kid chas vshalom dying from this is EXTREMELY low (almost non-existent).”
That’s true . But at the same time look at this website — and look at the number of obituaries of people who passed away from the virus. Look at the local newspaper — and look at the pages upon pages of Covid obituaries. I think there is a bit of cognitive dissonance — again considering that in most orthodox neighborhoods we know of multiple people who died as a result – and many of them with no prior existing medical conditions — and not all of them old.
To the original poster, Mr. CT Lawyer:
When my daughter got engaged a few years ago , my mechutan came to me and asked for a large sum of money for an apartment (which he also would contribute). A little background, the kids live in Israel, I live in North America, Mr. Mechutan lived in North America (although is not North American) and now lives in Israel. I am well aware that buying an apartment is an Israeli thing. ( I merely said, “Shlomie — I am sure that we will have a great relationship go forward and I know my daughter is very excited but this is not a conversation worth having because I cant/wont do that .” That was that. And, in fact, we do have a very nice relationship, he is a great person — and my daughter is very very happy (and her husband is a great person).
So I say to you — it may be chutzpah — but “so what.” Decline the invitation to pay — as you did — and go from on from there. Mazel Tov.
“That group is not made for Orthodox people; it is an Israeli front to indoctinate youth with zionism – nothing to do with Judaism.”
There are Orthodox trips. OU. Chabad. Others.
The second — about Zionism and Judaism — is a topic that has been beaten to death my minds much much great than mine. But, in short, unless you are Satmar or follow that path — I would say if you are not wrong — your analysis is ridiculously shallow. (And zionism now does not mean what it did in 1800s — at least in my opinion).
That is all.
Moadim l’simcha.
This conversation is pretty much moot. Go to the front page of YWN to see the list of dead people. My neighbor died — she was not going to shul or illegal minyanim – and still caught it. I dont think the whole story is out about transmission. It seems worse than they think. (Not a doctor, not a scientist, not an alarmist). Those who waited 2 weeks to cancel minyonim were 2 weeks late to the party. (I was one of them — one week late). Now that we know — do whats right.
Our shul is having a siyum on line
@ MrSarhahLevine
Why are you using a transgender screen name?
You win. You are the wittiest Coffee Room poster.
“It wasn’t an attack and nothing in your response refutes anything I said.”
Not sure i tried. Read my response. To one, i said i didnt know — but i provided you with more information. The second, i agreed with you and again provided you context. What you do with more information is your choice.
Neville: I generally like you — so — you dont need to attack me.
You wrote: “It’s still probably upwards of 5 times the size of the Orthodoxy in America. You just don’t live in that world now and don’t realize it. Also, 90% of them only go to shul 3 times a year, so you wouldn’t realize it.”
I respond: I dont know. But, i do know that Conservative Shuls are closing yearly on Long Island and Queens. The movement is no where near where it was. Now i dont believe that about reform — i think it is huge.
You: “This idea you apologists keep peddling that the poskim only had a problem with it because it “posed a threat” is completely insulting and shows that you probably don’t actually care about what rabbonim say because you’ll just inject your own “ulterior motive” theories when you don’t like their psaks.”
Me: I am not sure i am an apologist for the Conservative Movement. I think its true that i have hakarat hatov for the synagogue i grew up in and the people i met there. I do believe that there you can view “psak” in an historical context. Now — i am not saying that necessarily changes the psak (but it may) — but in the 1950s and 1960s — the Conservative Movement was considered a threat to Torah so the psak was harsh. (Rav Soloveichik was very strong on this issue at the time). I would also say that now that the Conservative Movement is not even remotely a halachic movement — i dont think that the same issues apply. (I would say that perhaps these issues and concerns may apply to certain orthodox synagogues that dont conform to halachic norms.)
“OP specifically asked why Bnei Torah dont like to use it.”
I please guilty to not always going back to the original post. OK…i never do. It would appear to me that if you know how to learn — you dont need it in the first instance but youd use it as any other commentary (which a translation is).
What happened before Artscroll is that many people just didnt learn. We totally over romanticize the “old country”. Many people were illiterate or just could not read aramaic. Translations allow people access. (The only argument against “Artscroll” is that translation is a de facto commentary — so often times — they provide one possible interpretation to the exclusion of others.
“I know that a well known MO Rabbi in Teaneck stated 50% of MO go otd.”
Seems high to me just looking around the room and down the block. I had it more as 10 to 20 percent. Still nothing to particularly gloat about i would admit.
EPIS: I hear you but im not so sure. I have seen kids from perfectly good homes. I think it is naive to say — if they were properly taught they would not go off the derech. “A lot of things can happen on the way to that place.” I am concerned though — like you — that a lot of people speak to their kids in the same way they speak to others here. To that end, I would be curious to hear if ALL your (not you, Epis, per se) kids are more religious, less, or no longer religious. (I know those gradations are hard to define sometimes — but we do know if our kids are not observant).
These stories can cut both ways. (No pun intended). Around 30 years, i was at Rav Nachman Bulman’s house. My friend had long hair at the time. (Not sure if he still does, perhaps he, like me, is bald). Rav Bulman said to him — “if anyone every says anything about the hair, tell them that Rav Bulman said its fine.” I know, i know — this wasnt a psak and there were many reasons to do it. BUT… Rav Bulman was, among other things, a really nice person — and thus wanted this particular boy to know that Rav Bulman, for one, wasnt going to judge him.
R. N. Kamenetsky ztzl in a speech that can be found on line — at the very beginning — tells a story about his father and the moon landing.
I agree with “Rational” which admittedly may not help Rational’s case. A few points. I grew up and was bar mitzvahed in a Conservative Synagogue – which for various reasons spawned a few well known people presently in the Orthodox/Charedi world. (For one, the Hebrew School and the Youth Programs were run by Orthodox people. This was in the 1960s, 70s and into the 80s).
1. If you ask the sheilah — there are poskim who permit attending a bar mitzvah, aufruf, etc in a conservative synagogue. These “heterim” are on a case by case basis. In other words, i am not sure i have seen anything in writing about it.
2. Back in the 1950s the C movement did present a threat to the O movement. But, now, the C movement is really in death throes. Thus, even though nothing has changed philosphically about the movement (other than it is much less halachic now than it was years ago) — i agree that it presents no threat. (Very few kids leave the orthodox movement to go to the C movement — or the R movement. They just drop out).
3. Someone raised an interesting question about a “C” synagogue with a mechitza versus an “O” shul without. Both may be dinosaurs at this point — but i heard a shiur about this around 30 years ago. The rav said in the shiur that he felt that you could daven in the O shul (off to the side) but probably not in the C shul because, as the poster above wrote, they were denying as a movement Torah MiSinai.
As you may or may not know — many organizations (OU for example) run birthright trips. Some are not religious and some — like the OU — are run “orthodox” but, on some of the trips, NONE of the participants are religious. That’s great — but it may not be for you. I have heard of birth right trips that cater to orthodox individuals. Not sure who runs them. (The other stuff about jeeps, and you asked a “certain unnamed gadol” — like much here should be ignored. You can go to another thread and see a frum woman who achieved professionally just being maligned in post after post. I hope Im not friends with any of these people — i assume im not).
exacturation? is that a word? I googled it and YWN comes up!!
Obviously — we all understand what the reference is — but Ill spell it out. In a Ponzi, money is collected from Peter to pay Paul. Money is collect Joe to pay Peter. And on and on until it stops. One way of doing social security is taking money from each individual and setting it aside to pay that particular person later. However, social security is a tax that is redistributed (or distributed) and so in that sense it is not a real ponzi.
I totally disagree. People act sometimes in disgusting ways because they are people. You shouldnt shout at people. You shouldnt degrade people. Everyone knows this — its hard to always live up to those standards. I agree that observant people should be better — but again — “people are people.”
From the “Little I know”: It [joy] must be modeled. However, our modeling, if only an act, will fail on contact. It is our own emotional involvement in Torah and Mitzvos that must be 100% real. If we allow our children to witness treating davening as a chore, or being disrespectful of it by behaving in shul in ways that we shouldn’t, that will be what they learn.
Me: Obviously you are right. But — there are homes where this is evident yet kids, for whatever reason, are not interested. Kids make decisions for various reasons. In my (not immediate family), a relative left observance at a young age because he wasnt interested. He is a great relationship with his parents, has a college degree and a profession. His parents wish he was observant — and he is aware of that — but other than that nothing much to do.
“If your child does not respect your beliefs or contributes to society you can always send your kid to boarding school for troubled teens.”
What if your child is a good kid, who respects your beliefs — but doesnt want to do them? I know of cases where the kids have excellent relationships with their parents — they just have chosen for many different reasons that the “life” is not for them.
MrSL613:
Will you acknowledge that the average non-Jewish work of fiction (marketed
to adults) contains material universally acknowledged as forbidden?I dont know. There is a lot of fiction out there. I am glad that you limited this to adults. Even so — and I dont mean to be cute but we have to define the “ISSUR” included in “reading”. (Let’s assume for this particular conversation we are not talking about explicit novels.) Where is the “issur” found and what does it include? Is it forbidden to read a curse word? Is it forbidden to read about forbidden acts (Shabbos/Kashrus)? (And – the issur of bittul torah etc. is not so convincing to me). Is it forbidden to read about people/things that dont share our values? (And — by the way — if people dont want to read novels, or watch movies, or watch sports — more power to them. The word “assur” is the language of “aveirah”. AND the topic we were discussing is whether telling our children that many things are forbidden keeps them on the derech or pushes them off. To that end, there are threads are sports kosher, star wars, books, etc. As for me — if it is not explicitly assur it is permitted. (And the reason i believe that — is that in essence that is how most people live — especially ones who use the internet.)
“but I believe strongly that OTD youth are the expected outcome if the parents cannot communicate joy in their service.”
Thats true — BUT — you would have to show me the data. Meaning — most OTD kids ar efrom homes were there is no joy in the service. That may or may not be true. Anecdotally — i dont think it is. I made this point about — i know parents who are warm, enthusiastic and joyful and their kids do not remain observant. I have seen the opposite without effect.
As to 5ish’s comment. I can accept that — that kids are pushed away by something they dont believe has value. Thats a valid statement. I would note that both in the Yeshiva World and the MO world most kids do NOT leave.
The Devil is in the details. Are these employees “at will” or “contractual”? With an at will employee you can change the deal “going forward” just not retroactively. If there is a contract for a set amount of time, of course, if you change the terms that is a breach. In fact, it is unclear to me when the OP writes that “[a]n Orthodox Jewish school in NYC changed their payment format for the school year 5779” whether the OP is talking about 2018-19 or 2019-20. My GUESS — and admittedly it is not what the OP wrote, is that there were two changes. First, that payment is now made over 12 months instead of 10. I have heard schools do both. There are pro and cons. Second, they are requiring some “in service” time in the summer. The school is basically saying you are a 12 month employee — not just 10. I think this is all fair — as long as the deal wasnt changed midstream.
The Little I Know:
For what its worth your “May 14, 2019 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm” post was tremendous. (Thats another way of saying i totally agreed).
Mr SL
I like the juxtaposition of this threat (Harry Potter) with the OTD threads. Of course, the irony of people discussing such on the internet goes without saying. I have read many threads here that prohibit — in addition to what the Torah actually prohibits — non-Jewish books, non Jewish music, watching sports, newspapers, movies, secular studies — i am sure i missed some. I am at a loss to understand why certain children — and adults may decide that such a life is not for them.
“Most OTD people didnt leave, they were pushed out. When you push someone out its not so easy to get them back”
I assume that the posters were talking about the Yeshiva/Chasidish world. I think in the modern orthodox world a lot of kids “drift” away. They go to secular college. Or, after college they work and live lives that are not so observant.. I think a some of them “come back” but i am not sure how strong their connection to Torah is when they do. I have posted about this in the past — take a look at the Modern Orthodox Survey from i think Summer 2017….it is very interesting (at least to me).
My friend visited the Same “Sar HaTorah” who told him to grow a beard and peyos–which i guess shows he does hold the Star K
Many of the posts here are very moving. I dont have answers, and I certainly dont have THE answer. I was just make one distinction. Preventing your child from leaving observance, and how to react once they do — i believe are two separate questions. In many ways, the second question is much easier (especially when it is an adult child). I think that the first question is very difficult, if not impossible to answer. I have seen the most loving, accepting, happy home — and the child chooses another path. I have seen the opposite but the child stays. I have seen kids drift off the derech when they were forced to go to shul, and kids leave observance when they were allowed to choose whether to go to shul or not. No easy answers. As ZahavasDad wrote “each case is different.”
“The Kotzker lived in chutz l’aaretz, Avi.”
Avi — say it again…just slower this time.
MrSarahLevine613, What you are saying about yuhara applies to covering the head with the talis but not about wearing it. See the MB I referred to before 17:10.
Rav Schachter seems to say, in explaining why single man dont wear a tallis at all in some places, that it is connected to yuhara. (I dont disagree with your citation. However, i am pretty sure that is NOT what he was limiting yuhara — in this context — to just covering your head. I have to go back to make sure i heard him correctly — but i think i did). His point in that part of the shiur — as is the point of this thread — was to figure out where this minhag came from. He gave two reasons as i wrote above.
The best part of being in Israel for me for my year over 3 decades ago — was going to different communities and meeting different people/families. I can remember almost every place that i went . No — everything was not like my mesorah. People were different. Families were different. Invaluable, I thought then — and think now. (I do agree that yeshivas should provide meals if they want. I think more Yeshivas do — allow the boys to stay “in” if they wish.)
So there are sources for all of the above: Harei Yehuda, the Kotel and Makom HaMikdash. A simple google search will give you articles by the Star K, Chabad and Ari Enkin on the topic. (Those are the ones on the first page).
I will ignore the possible motivations for the question — but i like the question. The most obvious one is in Esther, I think. If not a parade, they were definitely parading.
Just a note on the Israel Day Parade. Three of my children moved to and live Israel. One finished in the IDF. One is in the IDF/hesder. And one is charedi/kollel . Now — aside from the obvious fact that they all ran away from their parents, people in our MO community ask — what did you do that all your kids went to israel ? And we answer — for starters we never went to the Israel Day Parade. 🙂
” Since it’s not our system, the candidates aren’t trying to win the popular election, and projecting who would win a popular election by counting votes in an electoral college election is not valid.”
Right.
1. The electoral college was instituted to make sure that each state had a voice. (Even so — Cal/NY have more votes and thus more voice).
2. Trump did not campaign in NY and CAL. I assume that Hillary did not spend a lot of times where Trump was going to win by large margins. The campaign would fundamentally change if it was a straight popular vote. (I wonder if a straight popular vote would encourage more third party candidates because they could actually directly effect the election).
“Why cant you just call on Wednesday or latest Thursday??!”
In general — certain things need to be taught. You may think that certain things may be intuited by “kids” — but its just not so. I am pretty sure that i didnt have that sensitivity when i was in Israel in 80’s. I think — you as the host can say — we would love to have you but please call me (and most people) earlier in the week because thats when we make our plans. Nothing wrong with that.
I have distinct memories of being taught explicitly certain lessons of ettiquette and teaching my children the same. (And no, Im not that proper — but reminding your children to offer to help clear the table etc…is not the worst thing).
So…while i am not going to transcribe his piece on this…R. Herschel Schachter in Oct 2012 spoke about this issue. It is about on minute 40 in a shiur on YU Torah called, oddly enough, Tzizit. In short, he says a few possible reasons. (1) There is a medrash that seizes on the juxtaposition of “ki yikach isha” and “gidilim taaseh”. Those pesukim are next to each other…thus you dont wear a tallit until your married. (2) He said that there were certain places where only the Rav wore a tallit and for a “regular” person to wear a tallis would be “yuhara” — and he thinks perhaps that is where the ashkenazi minhag for singles not to wear a tallis comes from. He also points out that there is a minhag for single people not to wear a Kittel on YK. It could be that this is related. (Again — dont take my word for it you can listen for yourself).
I would take issue with one statement made here. [Not wearing a taliis for singles ” is not followed by most of the world.” Certainly in main stream ashkenazkic places (From Lakewood to YU) the minhag for singles not to wear a tallis. When my son made aliyah — he very much wanted to wear a tallis because even among the ashkenzim in the daati leumi world it is quite common for single men to wear a tallis. (I asked him not to. I probably should have just let him).
I think that the Rebbe’s active involvement in Israeli politics — albeit from afar — made Israel an important issue in his circles. Telushkin’s book addresses this issue. It is fact of course that all the Israeli politicians came to see and seek out the Rebbe’s advice (which he gave readily).
“Most BT’s descend from families who immigrated before the war, and most FFB’s descend from those who immigrated after the war. The effects of the war on those families last until today. ”
Is that true? I assume there is no data. Is it true that most people who are from religious homes were from “survivors”? It may be true if you count Chasidim. I wonder if its true in the modern orthodox world. Not sure. Interesting.
I think that the success of the Kiruv movement has always been overstated — numbers wise. I think as we move further from Europe — there are more and more who have no connection at all to Judaism. I grew up in the 70s/80s everyone belonged to a Reform or Conservative synagogue. In my neighborhood — all Jewish kids had some connection. Without any connection — it is exponentially more difficult to forge a connection later. I totally disagree with those who say that being unaffiliated is better. (I know the arguments — but i dont think that they are accurate. I would bet — but i dont know — that there are many more people who were affiliated with the Conservative movement in any way — that became orthodox than those who had no affiliation at all).
“Certainly it would be better for an adult not to be involved in this shtus.”
Again — if you feel that “leisure” is outside of Torah — i guess you are right. However, to me — if you believe that which is not “assur” is “mutar” (obviously, i read last week’s Parsha) — and assuming that if you were not watching the Jets lose — you would be finishing Shas — i think that criticizing people who do so smacks self righteousness.
“Mr. Sarah Levine, watching sports is worse than posting all day in the chatrooms. It is maybe slightly better than watching other people on their computers.”
Why? Is it better or worse that looking at abstract art? Is it better or worse than going to a museum? (Dont say which museum — any one you want to chose)> Is it better or worse than listening to music? Is it better or worse than sitting outside doing nothing? Is it better or worse than going out to eat?
the posts above are ridiculous. Is watching sports better or worse than posting all day on the internet chat rooms ? There is nothing wrong with it — unless you are going to tell me that instead of watching sports you are going to go feed the homeless or cure the lepers. Then — you shouldnt watch sports.
In our modern orthodox shul, we said half hallel without a bracha — after davening. BTW — there was at least one shul in town that said hallel on thursday and friday. (Not sure about the bracha).
If you have music in your life — then your kids will may like singing. My kids never liked zemirot per se — but they liked singing songs. So we sang the songs they wanted to sing. I always felt blessed that my kids wanted (for the most part) to actually stay at the Shabbas/t table. I found sometimes that if i prepared a bit (a story, an article) and it sounded like a didnt prepare — it helped. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence because there are so many variables that come into play.
A brief comment to my comment — which could have been more articulate — if only i were.
I am not arguing against halacha. i am observing an attitude toward every decision and every choice is which is heavy handed and depressing. I am not sure that i would wish to saddle my kids with that burden — that everything will be second guessed.
I am not sure that i could raise my children, the way that many seem to advocate here. Every decision at every turn is disparaged or questioned. And, at least by implication, if you do certain things – you are “crum” or lax or modern or an apikores. If you hold by a certain Rav (e.g. Rav Tendler or Rav Melamed — who are liars) that makes you — misled and gullible. The list doesnt end, but, to wit.
1.If you play sports.
2.If you watch sports.
3.If you send your boy or girl to Yeshiva/Seminary in Israel
4.If you go on vacation.
5.If you go on to a Pesach hotel or a hotel on Pesach.
6.If you wear white shirts (or dont wear white shirts).
7.If you listen to certain types of music.
8.If you pray for IDF soldiers or support the IDF.The only thing that is not subject to dispute is that the internet obviously is not completely assur — as long as you a filter which allows YWN.
Shabbat Shalom. (That’s Gut Shabbos in Hebrew btw).
I dont think that it makes you more frum. I dont really think anyone truly thinkgs that. To the extent this is a real question…i think that the answer is “conformity”. All societies “require” it — and judge a lack of conformity. Anything that veers away from the “standards” is looked upon as a potential sign that will rebell from other standards. By wearing a white shirt — you are accepting the guidelines of the community. (Whether or not those guidelines make sense). This is true everywhere. If a student were to wear a “yeshivshe clothes” to public school every day they would be “suspect” as not part of the regular culture. The fact that he wears suit pants and dress shirt to public school indicates to people that he is not part of the “regular” crowd and perhaps a non conformist.
Great Neck is a dangerous place for an unsupervised bochur.
what does that mean? As opposed to where….
Apparently, in another thread so is israel.
Brooklyn definitely fits the bill.
Geez.
“Not to accidentally be motzi shem ra, but is the rabbi mentioned in Gadol’s post the one who is known to fraudulently claim that Reb Moshe said/wrote things which he never really did?”
The quote above (regarding milk) i heard many times from Rav Tender about 30 years ago or so (pretty much verbaitim). As to “fraud” — again — fraud means that he is saying things that he knew to be false. What are you referring to.