MoshiachChat

This some lolever Rebbe said someone should break off a shidduch because the person didn’t want s picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe and that showed he truly didn’t have fear of heaven. And that u should tell him to listen to the Rebbe singing niggunim or speaking words of chassidus because it is a proven aid to fear of heaven. Who wants more stories of the Rebbe and Gaonim? There are volumes

@kovna

I like how it’s “Chas vshalom” if something ends up bad about ur rabbis, but good and well if the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a joke. U have no idea what the Lubavitcher Rebbe is(Chief Rabbi Sholom Mashash and Chief Rabbi Chaim Dovid haLevi signed a letter which called the Rebbe the Gaon and Tzaddik of the generation). Other gaonim defended the Rebbes tefillin campaign. Rav Soloveichik defended the Rebbes constant emphasis on moshiach etc etc etc. All u have is ur half informed stories. The Rebbe heard people mocking his campaigns which he passionately felt would help hidden and he addressed their thoughts seriously without using names(because that is nicer and more deeply the Rebbe wasn’t attacking the person but the opinion). And many gedolim agreed with the Rebbe. Idk where in the world u get the idea that everyone always disagrees with chabad but that is just totally inaccurate. Stop bashing the Lubavitcher Rebbe, especially with no references to sources. Did u even hear what the Lubavitcher Rebbe said? Did someone tell u?

@Kovna

U can deny there is such a custom but I’ve seen the footnotes with my own eyes. Sorry.

@kovna

Ur mixing up different things I’m afraid. And ur denial of this idea has far reaching consequences.

@chabadshlucha

Altho, I get why my sass and playful responses would appear youthful. I’m 22.

@SeichalHaYashar

Additionally the Rebbe says it’s a minhag of chassidim to believe their Rebbe is moshiach and that we follow this custom. Also the Rebbe brings a story about someone who said the Previous Rebbe was moshiach and someone getting upset and the Rebbe defended that Chosid. Additionally rabbi Groner was told over and over again by misnagdim that the Rebbe isn’t moshiach and rabbi Groner said it’s normal to believe it and quoted a Gemara Sanhedrin. These rabbanim said “there is no such Gemara” and when he showed them they shut their mouths. Rabbi Groner reported back to the Rebbe and the Rebbe mentioned at the fabrengen that there are people who haven’t thought about moshiach in so long that they didn’t know a simple point about moshiach mentioned in the Gemara. All that said, I tend to think I interpreted that letter correctly.

@Seichal HaYashar

Why would u assume id ignore it??? That’s a rude thing to assume. So u think meshichistim are heartless or something?

My answer would be that considering the Rebbe brought the sdei chemed I mentioned in a footnote, he obviously would not contradict himself. So one has to give. I would say the ksav yad u mentioned is the one which isn’t what it appears to be. Notice that the Rebbe says “chiuv” the sdei chemed never said it was a chiuv. He said its costumary. The Rebbes point, it seems, is that knowing who moshiach is is an Inyan, but ahavas yisrael is a chiuv. If there is ever a stira between the two then u should obviously choose ahavas yisrael. Don’t make machlokes. This wouldn’t seemingly apply here because we are trying to explain beliefs to those who have questions. We aren’t forcing on anyone. This ksav was written obviously to a particular person in a particular circumstance and we should be careful about drawing klals from personal stories.

@Winnie

I should be more precise. He says people would not only search but say who it is in every generation!

@the little I know

Well, the issue was is Yaakov avinu lo mes literal, and u then switched it to whether it applies to others and I would like to note that. The idea of Yaakov avinu lo mes was said about the previous rebbe. The Rebbe said “And the Previous Rebbe, who did not die, like Yaakov Avinu”. There is also a source from The bnei Yissachar which says “a tzaddik that didn’t have hanauh from this world, on the day of his death, only appears as if he dies but really lives bguf. The Rebbe Rashab says people who merit there “deaths” are interpreted loosely by hashem and they are concealed in some way. And in chabad teachings it explains that moshiach will have eternal life. There was a psak din which said that eternal life applies to the Rebbe BEFORE gimmel tammuz. The Rebbe himself said that moshiach hador has to be in a body, so if any antis believe he is nasi they have to believe his is alive. Reb Yoel Kahn, much to Seichal Yashars dismay, is on video saying nothing happened gimmel tammuz. He is here just as before.

I have been tough with some IN RESPONSE. This is after people have already delegitimized lubavitch or me and many time I apologize as in doing it. Again, I am sorry but some of these comments are v upsetting. I suggest u look again because most of the messages to me have not been respectful.

@Syag Lchochma

I don’t believe chabadshlucha is denying that there are some who are open to having a discussion, but there are too many loads of nasty comments here. For me, it’s been nearly nothing but. Being curious about a source is of course fine and we will give one, but we assume the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself is a source which we can appeal to. You are, again, not obligated to hold to our sources necessarily, but eilu v eilu divrei Elokim chaim. And much of this discussion seems like everything is divrei Elokim chaim except for what chabad says.

@ubiquitin

The Rebbe has a whole sicha about how it is literal and that Rashi and Tosofos agree that it’s literal. Maybe read the sicha before u categorically deny such a thing.

@phil

Thanks for proving mine by leaving out the whole “the Rebbe brings mefarshim that prove it” part

Pure hatred and intellectual dishonesty

Reb Yoel after gimmel tammuz:

“הענין ד”משיח שבדור” שהי’ בהנשיא שבדורות הקודמים הוא – שהוא ראוי להיות משיח, אבל לא הי’ שום הכרח שיהי’ כך בפועל, ותלוי באם הדור יזכה. משא”כ בהנשיא דדור השביעי – הרי בודאי שיהי’ כך בפועל. כי ]נוסף לזה שדורנו זה הוא הדור האחרון דהגלות והדור הראשון דהגאולה[ מכיון שהמשיח שבדור הוא הנשיא של הדור – הרי מובן בפשטות, דזה מה שבדורות הקודמים היתה האפשרות שה”משיח שבדור” ישאר רק “משיח” ברוחניות )יחידה הכללית( ולא יהי’ הגואל בפועל הוא ע”י שבדור שלאחריו יהי’ נשיא אחר. ומכיון שבנידון דידן לא שייך דבר כזה – דפשיטא שרבינו נשיאינו )הנשיא דדור השביעי( הוא הנשיא בהוה וגם בעתיד
וכדלקמן סי”ג( – הרי במילא ברור שהוא יהי’ גם הגואל )משיח (בפועל

Sechel HaYashar

You have done nothing but insult me, but u want to talk about manners? Gave me a break. I already nicely said I didn’t mean any disrespect by what I said. I’m happy to refer to them with the term Rav if people are that offended by it(as I’ve already said). None of what I said was intended to take away from Rav Moshe Feinstein’s kovod (the posek haDor) or any other great rabbanim which I have mentioned.

You say I’m such a terrible representation of lubavitch despite UR continuous personal attacks, but notice I don’t ch’v say ur a ch’v embarrassment to our Rebbe. No, u decided to say that about me. How about u show people what lubavitch is about and treat a fellow Lubavitcher respectfully even tho his only crime has been to disagree with u.

This has nothing to do with lubavitchers. I happen to do it on occasion as I’ve never seen someone freak out about it before. While u may argue it’s disrespectful, it certaintly wasn’t intended that way. But u also ignore the part where I said I also say “rav” in front of their names as well. I don’t davka not say “rav” cause I find them all worthless or something ch’v. As I’ve said before, all the chabad publications I’ve seen have referred to them with a proper title. Idk where this chabad disrespect nonsense is coming from. Stop hating just to hate it’s getting annoying

@WinnieThePooh

Also Winnie, I’m typing on a phone and the formatting is just terrible. I say words in my head sometimes and don’t write them, but because the format is so shvach so I can’t see if I wrote them or not without an annoyance factor. I’m also used to just referring to him as Mordechai Eliyahu as I refer to Rav soloveichik as “Soloveichik”. I like to think it’s a compliment to say the name and everyone knows who u are talking about. Shows how special they are. But I did refer to “Soloveichik” in an earlier message as “the Rav”. Perhaps u didn’t see it? In any case, no disrespect is meant ch”v ch”v.

@Sechel HaYashar

I was actually being fairly nice until u insulted everything about me and even now I’m not freaking out on u.

Regarding ur point about the use of the word I used, mitzad ikkur haDin it’s fine to say his name, but klal yisrael accepts not to say it and so we therefore don’t. As far as a euphemism is concerned, I’m not sure where that fails but I’ll refrain from using it for the time being. May I point u over to the din called ahavas yisrael? Don’t worry, I’m reading it now also.

Gut voch

@RSo

“We sat by him and saw that ‘no secret is hidden from him’ literally, in Shas and poskim, and in Nistar his understanding is very, very deep, mamash the ‘Master of the Zohar.’”

“Despite the late hour the Rebbe was alert to a degree that is difficult to imagine. We saw how he is constantly immersed in the world of the spirit. The entire Torah – Shas and poskim, Agada and Midrash and kabbala – everything is spread out before him in the clearest way. There is no need to speak in terms of (my) great admiration and veneration, but it is clear that each visit forms a greater closeness…
No less than the amazement over his incredible Torah wisdom is the feeling of k’dusha. When we sat near him we felt this time, too, as though we were sitting in the chamber of holiness, by someone where k’dusha hovers and rests in its fullest intensity in his four cubits. When you sit near him you strongly sense the words of the Gemara, “this is not a son of man (i.e. not an ordinary human being).” In addition, we saw his great concern for the Jewish people. There are no individual worries for one group or another. He is a ‘universal man’ in the deepest sense of the term. Whatever he does is done in a big way and with general concern for Klal Yisroel throughout the world. Fortunate is the generation that the Rebbe leads.”

-Mordechai Eliyahu, Chief Rabbi of Israel

Sechel HaYashar wrote:

@Joseph, “Mainstream Lubavitch and the official Mosdos condemn and reject which beliefs?” The belief that the Rebbe zy”a is still alive, and will soon be revealed as Moshiach. (Among many of the other things discussed here).

“Mainstream chabad” oy vey. Only a completely fabricated term to keep the piece with nonlubavtichers. What numbers do u have to support majority of lubavitchers reject he is moshiach? Where are ur pew polls? I’ve met hundreds of fellow lubavitchers many which are under shlichus from merkos who DO BELIEVE such things. And no, ur next comment will not change that fact

@GAON

Forgive me, but I fail to see where u have rebutted what I said. Asserting that u find something silly is fine, but I’ve already said that the Rebbe said the Rambam is bediuk. So if if ur interpretation of the Rambam seems to have some redundant phrasing then why should I assume that’s pshat? Especially when there are cases after the Rambam where people say moshiach can come from the dead. U say “not succeed” is the same as killed. Ok, but then why write killed? And why write “kosher and complete kings of Israel that DIED” too? Why the dozens of unnecessary sentences? Ur right, it is a sensitive issue which is exactly why we shouldn’t just brush the Rambam as being repetitive and unnecessary wordy in a part that is of upmost importance. That seems a little too convienent. Not to even have to deal with the resident wording of ur pshat just because like yah kno the Rambam obvi agrees with me cause like I’m right and ur wrong and like come on, duh. Also, ur point does not deal with people who consider the Rambam to be lo zachu.

@SechelHaYashar

What u said about Reb Yoel is absolutely not true. I don’t really blame u because this stems, in large part, from a term(meshichist) which is a shrouded in confusion. Reb Yoel disagrees with the method of the meshichistim, not the truth of what they are saying. Chaim Dolfin had many conversions with Reb Yoel and wrote in his book(Attack on Lubavitch) as much. There are a few familiar names amongst Lubavitchers and who kno Reb Yoel and people close to him who say that Reb Yoel has a political opinion and personal one. In addition I know people who studied by Reb Yoel after gimmel tammuz who told me that he believes the Rebbe is still moshiach. Most telling tho, is that I have access to a copy of an article he wrote after gimmel tammuz where he defends the idea that the Rebbe can be moshiach. I have it and have seen it with my own eyes. In there he says chabad chassidim need to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, but nonLubavitchers don’t.

Regarding your point about scaring people away from Lubavitch, I’m sorry to say that there are plenty of things the Rebbe said to publicize even if people get upset or to ignore their reactions. Practically tho, how many people are pushed away from Orthodox Judaism because of rules, age of the world, female/male roles, and shomer negiah? We don’t care what the world thinks here nor should we. A lubavitcher listening to his rebbe is no different. Especially when this inyan was blasted on live tv in front of millions of people at the Super Bowl for the whole world to see. Additionally, people asked to publicize this idea and were given positive answers from the Rebbe. What’s more, not everyone is pushed off. Plenty of people enjoy these inyanim. It’s not so clear cut as u make it seem.

Thirdly, I’m not here to tell people the Rebbe is moshiach and convince them of it. I’m here to defend that it is a kosher belief for whomever may hold it. Now please explain to me how showing lubavitchers are kosher to a bunch of people with a lot of questions or rude things to say about Lubavitch is worse than letting them think it about people who are going to continue believing it anyways? How does that make sense? And just what are u doing here? Spreading love?Please tell me how allowing people to have access to Lubavitchers is worse then letting them hear half truths from non lubavitchers and get these terrible ideas about us? I mean look at this thread? Why shouldn’t I try to help clarify? It’s not like there is peace until I start talking. It’s a mess and I’m just trying to give whatever answers I can so that we can stop fighting. And I’m hoping u will forgive me for any attitude I’ve given u, but if we are at the point where allowing people to think badly and Lubavitch is more acceptable than giving answers in an attempt to help people feel better about lubavitch then what have we come to? Also this chat presupposes such discourse is possible. If u have come to challenge that, then u have come to the wrong thread

@GAON

Regarding ur reading of the Rambam, i should point out a few things. 1. We learn from the Rebbe that the Rambam is very mediek(specific and careful with every word). It says killed not died. And u will notice every time he mentions someone who isn’t moshiach(bar kochba, yoshke, and the laws of a possible person u mentioned) is because they were killed. The part which u quoted afterwards which says he’s “like all the kosher and complete kings of Israel that DIED” can be understood as saying that even tho someone who was killed cannot be moshiach, he should be considered kosher and complete and his name shouldn’t be defamed just because he failed. Rather he’s even like the kings of Israel that didn’t fight wars and tried to be moshiach. Rather he is kosher and whole and even tho people died(since he lost and u might blame him for the deaths of Jews or resulting severe decrees) he is considered whole and kosher. This interpretation takes into account A. That he was wordy with “kosher” and “whole” and B. That he says he is like the kings of the house of David that died instead of a Loshon indicating previous contestants. C. “Killed” “died” and “not succeed”. Just say “if he didn’t succeed” and we would know that if he died or was killed that it was included. Instead he’s much too wordy. In addition, earlier the Rambam said “He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the Messianic king until he was killed because of sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not the Mashiach.” but he could have switched “Once he was killed..” with”Once he died”.

1B. Another way to look at it is al pi teva. Being killed was singled out by the sages as expressively not promised by the Torah, but there were opinions which held Daniel or David could come min hameism. Perhaps the Rambam considered it possible, but just not technically possible al pi teva. howevwr, if we merit, then we will receive miracles which bring the redeemer from the dead against nature. This interpretation is based on an opinion brought by the sdei chemed that with enough merit we will have moshiach min haneisim. This opinion also matches the format of the Gemara before hand where it considers what would happen if the Jews got the redemption through no merit or through a merit. Moshiach from the dead corresponding with the Jews doing teshuva, moshiach on clouds of heaven, achishena etc. even Berger in his book, while trying to demean the opinion, says that this is technically possible but he didn’t do enough reading. Additionally, the Rebbe says that Rambams laws are lo zachu and that if we merit then all the criteria could happen “bRega Echad”. He said we merited this and more. Anyone holding by such an opinion would blow the Rambam wide open. He could be in the resurrection, fight wars and win instantaneously. My point is not to spell out the Rebbes opinion(the Rebbe personally says we merited a higher level of bitah mixed with acheshina), but to show there are obvious ways of looking at this Rambam in a way that permit moshiach from the dead. It’s not as fridged as u might think. Another example is the son of the holy Ruzhiner who said that a few hundred years ago we would of had to wait 40 years til the redemption, but we merited that techiyas hameisim will happen the same time as moshiach so now his father, the Ruzhiner, can arise and be moshiach. There is also a source of a big chasid who said the Baal Shem tov will be moshiach.

2. First of all the Rebbe said he was ALREADY a navi based on many nevuahs which happened many times before. Things which are in printed in sichas clearly for anyone to see before they happened, and which were published in newspapers. There is a picture of the Rebbe taking an article with the title “yesh navi byisrael” with the Rebbes face on it to the ohel. If u want to challenge the Rebbe is a navi, it is against the Rebbe—not me. And if u think that calling the Rebbe a navi sheker ch’v ch’v G-d save us all by using as ur source a sentence in the Rambam which the Rebbe knew like his name, as well as all of Shas I have to wonder what on earth ur thinking. Before calling a holy gaon with ruach Hakodosh documented on thousands of videos and letters a navi sheker I consider u think over the dirtied up grain of knowledge u have of the Torah vs him. Really think about it. I want to be nice, but I’m not going to play a long with u if u insult such an amazing person. That’s pure hatred. I’ll try to hold myself back next time from showing any hints of disrespect. I want to address ur point, in as much as any of it was sincere. The nevuah of “henei zeh moshiach bo” was not in anyway a false nevuah because it was not saying that moshiach is redeeming everyone right now and ischalta degeulah arrived. There is, as found in many mefarshim, the idea that there is the coming of moshiach as a person and then the actual redemption. The nevuah which is based out of a midrash on shir hashirim means that moshiach the wrist is here and is telling the Jews to prepare for geulah because it’s coming for this generation. And as the mefarshim explain, the geulah with mirror geulah of mitzraim. We saw by moshe that he told pharaoh to let the Jews go and then things got WORSE. We also see that Satan said moshe passed away(in fact the mefarshim on Zohar such as the ohr hachama say that Moshe’s concealment on the mountain resulted in his leaving his body. In a way the Satan was telling the truth). The Rebbe also points out that a Helem v hester of moshiach does not contradict the Rambam so let’s just consider this it shall we. Many places say that the times right before moshiach will be really tough and people will struggle to believe in him. In fact the Rebbe Rashab did an open nevuah(as the Rebbe says) in saying that there will be a time when Jews will scorn the idea of moshiach. Sources say that there is a korach and gang in every generation causing problems for the nasi hador. Gedolim all around are saying moshiach is due any minute, but where is the big test? Who is turning the world over with yiddishkeit? The holy hidden tzaddik (zveil) was once told that the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbes comments about the messiah are uncomforting to him. The tzaddik responded “the secret of moshiach has been given to the Lubavitchers and it is permissible for them to speak about it”. Nobody else yearned and cried and made such a focus on moshiach, wouldn’t u think that that is moshiach? Additionally Rav Heller of crown heights paskened that the Halacha’s of chezkas moshiach are only if we have no other way of knowing, but if moshiach makes a nevuah—which then means we are obligated to listen— then if he says he’s moshiach then we are obligated to believe it. And a good nevuah never goes away.