MoshiachChat

Consensus on this page reached by ignoring majority of what I said and calling me names, yeah. What a consensus. Amazing stuff going on here. @Seichal tells me to be a living example for lubavitch while insulting me any way he can, @Phil has been nothing but absurdly rude and in the habit of attributing terrible motives to me while giving no arguments. I’m happy to apologize for Rav Shach. Trying to be the only one with some respectful dialogue is pretty hard when everyone’s ignoring everything u typed and calling u a borderline heretic and a dishonor to lubavitch and ur Rebbe. So I do apologize, but this is quite the challenge to controlling my yetzer. Hardest yetzer is fighting that geshmake u get at insulting people with a slick comment. It slipped a little on the Rav Shach comment(again I apologize).
I’m just gonna go ahead and assume nobody gives a lick and will insult me gain next message. In which case, I’ll duck out early. Have a Gud shabbos and Moshiach now!

@Daas
The Lubavitcher Rebbe is someone who if he said he was a pickle he could prove it to u in shaas. It’s a shame u won’t learn what he said and check his sources. I can’t supply u with everything, but I’ve given u the sources and much of it is on Hebrew books.

the Rebbe is a navi or is able to be *gives sources*

The Rebbe isn’t a navi or a pickle *just keeps saying so and gives no sources*

@phil
I quoted it because u wanted sources. Now ur saying u don’t want sources. Do us a favor and make up ur mind. That’s what the Rebbe said. It’s not my problem u won’t accept it.

@Daas
His views are well within Judaism as I’ve given Jewish sources for all of it and so has the Rebbe. Don’t be surprised that there are dozens of sources in shaas that u don’t know about. Why is my view irrational? Aside from violating ur expectations? There is such a thing as moshiach, there is such a thing as a navi. Why do such realities shock u. To quote a source which isn’t the Rebbe:
Rav Hai Gaon said ‪”You should know that this was an accepted fact by all the Rishonim and not one would deny it for they would say that Hashem does signs and awesome things through the tzaddikim like He does through the prophets and He shows the tzaddikim awesome visions the way He showed them to the prophets”‬

moshiach not coming yet does not negate what the Rebbe said if u just read the sichos. Moshiach is very complex issue and it’s silly to pretend I can explain it all or even know 1/100000 of what there is to know about when moshiach will come to u right now on this chat. Study the Rebbes sichos yourself. I’ll point out tho there is a source which says moshiach will say it’s time to be redeemed but the redemption won’t come until certain things happen. We also saw by moshe that he went to pharaoh and told him to let the people go and then things got worse for awhile and he was concealed. He didn’t say the redemption was gonna come on Friday September 2nd 1992. He said it’s coming MiYad in this generation which isn’t as simple. What Miyad means is discussed in shaas and the Rebbe talked about it. He did not give an exact time of which was proven wrong. Check his sources for more info

Not on the navuah track but just in general I thought u might appreciate this in how to understand how a Lubavitcher sees his Rebbe :

“The concept of a Rebbe is to reveal down here in this physical world what he heard in Gan Eden. The Rebbe is the [concept of] “I stand between G-d and you at that time to tell you the Word of G-d”(Devarim 5:5) as is written of Moshe Rabbeinu. “To tell you” means “to draw down to you” the Word of G-d”- Previous Rebbe, Likkutei Dibborim vol 4 p. 1408

“…And when a Tzaddik speaks, there is no doubt, he does not say something that is not true, G-d forbid”
-Rebbe, igros Kodesh #621

Moreover: “a prophet about whom another prophet testi ed that he is a prophet” – as it is regarding the leader of our generation, and this continues in the following generation through his disciples etc. – “behold it is established that he is a prophet, and the second one does not need inquiry”113; and he must be obeyed imminently and immediately even “before he shall make a sign” and “it is prohibited to have second thoughts about him and have doubts about his prophecy, that perhaps it is not true, and it is prohibited to test him more than necessary, as it says114 ‘you shall not test Hashem your G-d as you tested [Him] at Massah’… Rather, once it is known that he is a prophet they shall believe and know that Hashem is in their midst and they should not have second thoughts about him…”113. This is because we believe the words of a prophet, not because these are the words of the prophet, rather because these are the words of Hashem through this prophet!
[[They are] not even the words that Hashem had said through a second prophet, but were not said to him].
[Hence,] there is the instruction as mentioned above, that it must be publicized to all the people of the generation, that we have merited that Hashem chose and appointed a person of free-will[114], who in his own right is incomparably superior to the people of the generation, that he should be the “judge” and “advisor” and prophet of the generation, who will issue directives and give advice regarding the Service of all the Jewish people and all the people of this generation, in all matters of Torah and Mitzvahs, and also in regard to the general day-to-day life and conduct including [advice and directives] in [matters of ] “in all your ways (you shall know Him)”
and “all your deeds (shall be for the sake of Heaven),115”
Including the main prophecy – the prophecy116 that “immediately to redemption” and literally immediately “Behold, he (Moshiach) comes”

“Not [being said] just as a sage and judge rather as a prophet, which [therefore] it is de nite – see short discourses of the Alter Rebbe p. 355-6.”

“One must] publicize both to oneself and to all those that can be reached that they must accept upon themselves and take upon themselves (with greater strength) the instructions and advice of “your judges” and “your advisors” of our generation – “who are the kings? the Rabbis”111 in general, and especially the leader of our generation – who comes in continuation to the Rebbes, our leaders, before him – the judge of our generation, advisor of our generation, and prophet of our generation”

“And especially after “prophecy shall return to the Jewish people”, which is the “introduction of Moshiach” (as mentioned above) – the prophecy that our Rightous Moshiach will have (who “is90 a great prophet close to Moshe Rabbeinu”91), and [about whom] our Sages have said92 that “the rst redeemer (Moshe) is [similar to] the last redeemer”, and in each and every generation there is one person be tting this position – therefore we need to know the law also in this time (even before the Redemption), that there is the phenomenon of the revelation of prophecy ([which] Moshiach [has] even before the Redemption). This is a taste and the beginning (“your advisors as in the beginning”) of the completeness of the revelation of prophecy [as it will be] after the Redemption. In other words this is not an innovation which will be innovated only after the Redemption, rather that its beginning is achieved even before [the Redemption], in a manner of “your advisors as in the beginning”. Therefore the Rambam writes this in his book of laws (and especially since the Rambam writes in his book also the laws regarding the days of Moshiach, including – the introduction to it).”

“Furthermore: the Rambam writes in the ‘letter to Yemen80’, that in a certain year (as he calculates there) “prophecy will return to the Jewish people”, “and there is no doubt that the return of prophecy is the introduction of Moshiach (as it says81 ‘your sons and daughters will prophesy…’)”.”

@litvisherchosid
Yeah, people saying I’m an embarrassment to my Rebbe, brainwashed, logic won’t work on me, purposely being sneaky and avoiding questions etc etc etc is all made up victim syndrome.

@phil

Also please appreciate I’m not necessarily going to respond to u first and the messages will be too long for the moderators. Perhaps judge less instead of attributing nefarious motives to me every time I type. Perhaps I’m busy, or made a mistake, or forgot! Why must it instantly be a conspiracy with u. Come on

Hashem made a promise that ‫שלו יכבה נרו לעולם ועד‬ this also is connected to moshiach and is brought in the psak din of the Rabbanim in 1992 about the Rebbe having chaim nitzchim it’s also on video

@phil
There are of course sources that the Rebbe said he as a navi and moshiach. I mentioned many of them when I first got here but they went ignored.

@seichal HaYashar
All u do is mock me and u want to talk about reasoning? How about u explain what I’ve done wrong. So far all u corrected me on was saying “book of halachos” that’s it. Nothing else. Another point or two were just misunderstands of what I meant but u never got back to them after I clarified. U are full of nothing. None of my main points have been addressed after I’ve repeated them multiple times. Again, address the arguments

@Daas
By “calling the Rebbe a navi sheker” I didn’t mean u were calling him one right now. I’m aware u didn’t accept the idea that he even was trying to give nevuahs. I was saying in short hand that if u accepted it then why would he be a navi sheker? “For what reason is he a navi sheker[under the assumption that he tried to give nevuahs as I’ve said]”
“I think calling him[in situation where u accept that he said it] a navi sheker..” cause ur obviously assuming that if he did then he would be. So to that I’m saying, u don’t have a proper understanding of the sources if u think that

Ur first point on my comment made no sense. I said ” The Rebbe said he was a navi, not me”
U said “I wouldn’t expect the Rebbe to call you a navi”
I wasn’t calling myself a navi. I was saying the Rebbe was calling himself a navi and it wasn’t just me calling him a navi.

Daas
Why is it nonsense? Stop calling me names and being an argument like a normal human being

im not avoiding it, I tried to address it but since I put a link in my message it was deleted. Besides, as I’ve already said, dozens of people message me and I can’t respond to it all at once. Someone was kind enough to list a source from ramban.

The Rebbe said he was a navi, not me. For what reason is he a navi sheker? I think calling him a navi sheker stems from, all due respect, not knowing enough about the sources the Rebbe quotes. The Rebbe knew much more than u. Don’t pretend ur a fraction of what the Rebbe was or u will just be disappointed. He knew all of shaas like his own name. The Rebbe quoted the Rambam that it’s forbidden to overly question him because he’s BEEN established as a prophet. If u honestly think u can argue with the Rebbe I really don’t know what to say to u. Ur head is too big. If u knew who the Rebbe was then u would be a lot slower to call such a tzaddik and gaon a navi sheker.

“Moshiach Monster” in going to assume that was directed at me. Ur saying the Rebbe once said “Zol Gezuint zein” does not address the 3 times I listed. I should also note that the Rebbe said shlita on video to Mordechai Eliyahu about the Previous Rebbe. I’m not here spewing propaganda I’m telling u things I’ve heard. Just because I don’t agree with u and u don’t agree with me mean we are spewing propaganda.

My point with litvishers was not that all of them were learned. My point was that we can pick on eachother about motives all u want. I personally know people who talked with litvishers back then who said things like it will be king David or Daniel etc. At the end of the day it’s about arguments, so let’s keep it that way.

People are complaining that I have not responded but the moderators have already said I have to keep it short, multiple people have asked me questions, and I only have a certain amount of time. I will respond to the Daniel point and the neuvah point in next message

Considering Reb Nocham of Chernobyl, the opinion quoted by the sdei chemed, and the Shtefaneshter Rebbe said someone could come back from the dead(this is far after the Rambam) I would strongly disagree that WE decided to change the Rambam. These sources clearly show that it was thought possible even after the Rambam. I’ve already pointed out that the way many of u read the Rambam seems redundant. The Rebbe told us that the Rambam is btachlus hadiuk. The fact that Rambam could have just written “if he’s unsuccessful” and u would know dead or killed, raises a question why he decided to redundantly point them out for a few more sentences. Alternatively he could have just said dead and u would know killed was included because he already mentioned bar kochba. Also just say “all the kings of Israel that died” why say “all the kosher and complete kings of Israel that died” what does rambam wish to bring out with that. I’ve heard a few different pshats and they all seem pretty reasonable. I’m not trying to necessarily prove it IS pshat but there are a few options out there.

@DaasYaachid
There were plenty of nonlubavitchers who said the Rebbe couldn’t be moshiach because nobody today is worthy of it and it will be someone from the dead. The opinion was “anybody but the Rebbe”. Many people were shocked because they understood what would happen a certain way, but it’s a test for a reason.

@Seichal Hayashar

It wasn’t a typo as much as an auto correct. But yeah, double Loshon of yashar koyach.

Phil, what other moshiachs? There is only one moshiach. It’s not because he had attempted that they applied these things to him. It was different factors which came together. That it’s time for the geulah and moshiach is here based on the Rebbes nevuahs and the Rebbes accepting the chezkas psak that the time had come for this chezaka to continue until vadai. As Rav Volpe put it “‪However, in addition to this, it’s also been established a clear testimony and prophecy of the nasi hador and navi hador that he already announced “reached the time of their redemption”. As if to say, that in addition to this that there is the metzius and hisgalus of moshiach that he’s working in the end time of golus. Indeed, This moshiach, that was already established as a navi, dozens of prophecies and revealed ruach Hakodosh throughout the years, stands and announces that now is the time of the geulah. In a way that to all the people of the generation there is no doubt. That certaintly he will not be left only in the metzius of chezkas moshiach, but that soon he will be moshiach vadai. For we already stand mamash on the edge of the complete geulah. ‘Behold behold this one comes— and he already came’!”‬ Essentially it can be summed up by how the chosom Sofer says in his book of Halacha’s. That in every generation there is someone who could be moshiach and if the generation would merit then he would receive the ruach of moshiach he would be revealed and sent by hashem to redeem the Jews. The Rebbe quotes this and says we merited this chosom Sofer(which is also in the sdei chemed And elsewhere). So if u don’t hold by the Rebbe, or don’t believe him, I get that. But if u hold such a thing, then this person is already going to be moshiach. So when a navi says he’s moshiach hador and that this dor merited it becomes known that this guy is gonna be moshiach. Rav Heller of crown heights paskened that rambams Halacha’s are when there is no other sign, but if moshiach makes a nevuah and says he’s moshiach(perhaps by quoting the chosom Sofer, saying it’s dor hashvi, that this is last generation of exile and first of redemption, and that moshiach name is menachem mendel) so then the Rambam becomes irrelevant mitzad identification. As a good nevuah is never retracted and we now know because he’s established as a navi.

Slightly different way to look at it is that the essence of the Rambams Halacha’s depend on if this is any other generation. If it’s a normal generation u could say that someone who dies won’t be moshiach because everything is al pi nature and according to nature people don’t get up. But if it’s the last generation so then the leader of that generation has to come back and be moshiach because it’s the last generation. We could interpret it that way without the nevuah because this was the opinion of our Rebbe, but all the more so with the nevuah. Not forcing u to believe anything, but seemingly these things would make it totally fine.

Hey @phil

I made some replies, but it seems they weren’t put up, so I’ll say them again here.

The believe isn’t that the Rebbe wasn’t buried. He was. I believe nearly all of us, except for some very confused individuals, can agree to that. The Shtefaneshter Rebbe said about Yaakov Avinu, that since “Yaakov Avinu lo Mes” he is obligated in mitzvahs. The specific mitzvah pointed out was eating matzah on pesach. So he asks how Yaakov avinu can fulfill this mitzvah. He says there that since Hashem is כל יוכל so hashem is able to give him matzah to eat in pesach in the grave. Now, this isn’t what I think to be the case, but it’s still Torah and I respect the opinion. Rashi says it appeared that Yaakov had died in his commentary on Chumash, and tosefos quotes Gemara in Taanas when commenting on the “Yaakov avinu lo mes” Gemara which says Yaakov avinu laughed after he passed away. The Rebbe says these two take it literally. He also asks some questions which make it difficult to say otherwise. So the Rebbe says Yaakov is alive b’guf. He also says in another sicha that there are others who say Lo Mes Moshe means also bguf, but the Rebbe doesn’t hold by that vort. Nevertheless it is an opinion. The Rif on Ein Yaakov says that Yaakovs כח to move was nullified and they mistakenly buried him. The Rebbe has a letter going through different tzaddikim and sources which say they didn’t die and how there are different levels and opinions. If ur interested in that letter I’ll send the source. The bnei yissachar has an opinion that tzaddikim who never had nanah from this world, on the day of their passing, look like they died but live neshamah bguf. There are also many sources for a guf dak(ethereal second body) which is discussed about many different tzaddikim. Another thing, the Rebbe says the Baal Shem Tov could have lived forever but he chose to die and fulfill the Loshon of the phrase “from dust u shall return”. There is also a famous vort about how the Baal Shem tov and the Maggid of Mezrich visited the alter Rebbe in prison after their passing. One of the chabad rabbanim asked someone who visited the alter Rebbes cell if there was enough room for 3 people, clearly showing he though they appeared in some kind of actual body. When it comes to applying this to the Rebbe it comes from chassidic explanations that moshiach will live forever. These explanations were applied to the Rebbe in 1992 with the chezkas moshiach psak din and that the time for geulah had arrived based on the Rebbes nevuah. They therefore said the oath of hashem that moshiach will live forever applies to the Rebbe. So coming from that direction, we see how it would work. Personally, I went to the Rebbes kever, and put my hand on his gravesite. As soon as I did I felt some type of shock, l’maalah min hateva. My heart felt like it was bubbling and my head was buzzing and there was kinda like a current going through my arm. It was unlike anything I can put into words and lasted until I took my hand off the stone many seconds later. I’m personally telling u this to help bring out that tzaddikim are beyond us and that something is going on down in that kever. u don’t realize the depth of it until u experience the Rebbe, I guess. And no, aside from being sassy my mental health is normal. Altho I can understand wanting to paint me as a crazy anon so as not to have to believe this story. But I experienced it for myself, and I generally tend to keep it to myself but I felt it necessary to say this in context of this conversation.

@Winnie

Ch’v Ch’v that the Rebbe ever backed off the moshiach campaign. He dedicated decades to it and it’s the Torah of the Rebbe. He did not “give up”. There are plenty of sources to the idea that “it’s all up to you”. Not trying to offend, but that’s just not how the Rebbes sichos work. They don’t work as “well I’ve done all I can do. Idk what to do next exactly. Might as well give it all up”. He has a whole other year of sichas after that which are even more moshiachdik than before. There is an interview in 1992 where he says “Moshiach is ready to come now and it is only on our part to add in the realm of goodness and kindness”. One person came crying to him after the sicha and he said the avodah depends on you. Him not being able to do more and the jews doing the rest has to do with his being a tzaddik, the spiritual avoda, and HaAlos M’an(isarusa delisata) of the yidden. It’s a lot more complicated and holy than a social psychology approach. Also the Rebbe says to live at every moment with the teachings of the nasi hador. We are if anything, failing to live up to them, not changing them. I found a source outside of chabad literature which says that moshiach will come and say it’s time for geulah but the geulah won’t come because some deeper things need to happen first. Just a thought.

@Seichal Hayashar

I have no idea who u have been talking to about Reb Yoels beliefs but ur information is quite awful. There is a clear article after gimmel tammuz where Reb Yoel defends the Rebbe being moshiach as much as to say “bvadai” he will be moshiach. Nothing u say will change that fact. He has never said the Rebbe can’t be moshiach and that he doesn’t believe it. Not once. I know people who learned under reb Yoel and can tell u what he believes, and it’s that the Rebbe is moshiach. I mention that again because u had nothing to say to that last time. So too here, I’ve seen the video like 5 times. It’s very recent. Ur sources again are wrong, but cleave to them with more anger!

“Whoever hears about the Admur[Lubavitcher Rebbe] stands in awe at the greatness of his personality, knowledge, influence, and activities. Aside from the Aura of Awe and exaltedness that he radiates. We learn from him the meaning of greatness, the meaning of perfection, and the power of Torah. The human mind finds it hard to fathom: how can a human being whose abilities are limited, and whose time is limited, attain such a broad range of knowledge? How can one individual lead with grandeur such a large enterprise of activity? How can one man provide guidance, assistance and strength to millions of Jews as a whole, and to all of them as individuals? Even more difficult to comprehend is how all these people are integrated within and embodied by, one individual, renown as a tzaddik, chasid, and Anav in all his ways?”- Rabbi Bakshi-Doran, journal Hadar Hakarmel 5742