Moq

Ofcourse-

I suppose it’s like any course of life; may regret that they didn’t join kollel. And some doctors wish they became lawyers, and many businessmen wish they were plumbers. Or toenail cutter import/export professionals. Just because some people regret their path doesn’t invalidate it.

Everyone has their unhappy campers.

Certainly, it’s not for everyone, or even the majority of people, but it is possible, a young avrech has a fiscal plan, and works accordingly, and his wife is willing to work hard – and he is a successful learner – it can be done with drastic money. Perhaps not in lakewood, but it can be done. Your experience seems to limited to your relatives, and I don’t suppose we should stereotype the entire kollel world based on that. I have seen couples be very successful without major support.

I know of one Avrech who lives on around $2,500 a month in eretz yisrael. His wife works in computers for Bituach LeUmi at the tune of 9000 shekel a month, and the rest he gets from his Kollel. Is that above average? Certainly. Does it happen? Yes. Is it possible? Yes. Hard as heck. Definitively.

Does a girl have a right to say “no”? Of course! More then that, if the yes isn’t a burning one, I would also think another life path was necessary.

Touche!

In Brisk, Mir & R’ Tzvi – any Yeshiva that have diros – boys get there first taste of cooking.

It’s actually wonderful, the poor bachurim eat with a michlig iron and a flieshig iron for two years, and it’s great preparation for marriage – anything their eshes chayil makes is meyen olam habah, compared to reheated three day old pizza on a radiator (the michlig one).

(And I agree with prof. Home economics can be taught in High School. Sem is about sem.)

Squeak – assuming you are being serious (Really? Hmmm…makes sense…) – I real think details are not a good idea. Ad Kan. Please?

The Gemara says V’Nishmartem MiKol Davar Rah, an issur Aseh, as mentioned. It mentions it for men, though.

Lo Sikrevu? I don’t think so – again, source anybody?

It is extremely difficult to be madgir the issur of hirhur for women; I suggest we leave it alone. It is difficult to concieve that hirhur would be forbidden based ervah; basing on Niddah would be even more difficult, I’d be curious to see a source.

Lo Sikrevu on Hirhur? Is that even true for a man? Source! (Hishamer Lecha Mekol Davar Rah would apply for a man because of the resulting issurim, but not for a woman. The Ramban in Yevamos speaks of Hirhur for women being problematic, but not based on a posuk).

BUT-

But the influence is real. We become more promiscious, more violent – we are influenced by what we see and hear. This is real. There is a double digit billions industry called advertising – which means that behaviorism works. What we see, what we hear – we do. I do – you do. This is how marketing & advertising work – and are they successful!

This is why the Torah tries to influence us on a constant basis. Say the Shema – twice a day. Everyday. Repition. Behavioralism.

America has destroyed it’s soul through the media. Destroyed it’s values & morals. True, some music is wonderful, some movies perhaps once upon time were as well – but today, since 99% percent is garbage and will influence us to evil – not because we are weak, but because we are human.

You honesty & desire to grow is certainly a great maalah, more then anything you listen to or see. But, to keep that wonderful maalah, you should water it – not poison it.

But L’Maaseh, we are not going to sit and read sifsey chaim all day. Find a hobby. Get involved. Do something you enjoy, spend time with real people with real feeling. Learn a musical instrument and fill those needs for real music.

Enjoy what is real, what is here, what is now.

And worst of all – TV & Movies teach us that life is constantly – well, on the edge of life. We lose our taste for real, beautiful, refreshing day to day life. We become zombies on the last minute saved by the dashing hero before the nuclear goes off and destroys the universe.

And we fall fate to the ultimate killer – the belief that life is later & elsewhere. Life is after I graduate, get married, lose ten pounds, marry off my grandkids – then life begins.

And that is a sad life, never ever lived. And is worse then any issur; it is lose of the point of it all. It is a living death. A life where only the fake is called real. Made in The USA, of course.

– first of all, I agree. Money & Looks are the icing on the cake. But if the cake is poison…and icing you can find later. But yes, I definetely believe they are important. And just icing with no cake causes a bad stomach ache, and makes you get replused by icing and long for cake. So I’d prefer cake with no icing, then icing with no cake. Marion Antonette would have been proud.

But IF – and big IF – because you can be blinded by the beauty & the benjamins and not see that a serpent lurks within the Gucci and chicken feet in the prada heels.

In other words,I don’t think anyone says “yeah, I want cash & a supermodel” – but I think guys convince themselves they are taking into account internals because there brains stop working at the sight of externals. Gotta keep the brains in the drivers seat.

I do think people give them too much weight, and many focus too much on externals and marry someone whom they should not have married.

The OU did a survey on frum marriage – 26% of people said they weren’t sure if they would have married there spouse, given the chance to do it again. %15 (part of the 26%) said they would not have married there spouse.

Sad reality – they messed up. They did something wrong. They are suffering – and many , could have done it otherwise. Mind you, 15% is one out of seven.

I once heard a shiur from a fine talmid chacham about shidduch – “Bashert needs to leave your head before shidduchim – you can marry the wrong person. You will burn in the world and in the next for doing so – so get your head screwed on straight”.

$500 a day is about 180k; drop taxes and drop taxes and you’ve got 140k, which is about what it takes to support a healthy sized family in the tristate area without tuition breaks and make normal chasunos. Certainly not the high life.

Though it’s pretty nice to get from the shver, I’ll admit.

Sacri –

Your sentiments are kind. And potentially correct –

Same applies for girls. The Ikar HaIkarim, is not even brains or haskafah – or looks or middos (though it’s a close second) – is to be a girl. Be a woman. And not a man. Feminity and masculinity are what a marriage is. It’s what makes a marriage more then best friends – which is great, and should be there are well, but doesn’t fulfill what a marriage is suppose to be.

Everything else makes it better. But the ikar is to be a girl – respectful, trusting, – looking for a guide and protector – healthy feminity – capable of allowing yourself to be taken care of. Healthy feminity encourages healthy masculinity and there becomes a healthy cycle which bounds the two people together, and fills a woman with a feeling of safety and care – and man with confidence & strength, and that is the bracha of marriage.That is what it is.

Of course, you will need to find a gentlemen you respect & trust, and want to follow; the date is a test drive – let him lead. If he leads you into a ditch, or doesn’t know where to go , and cries and panics and ask you what to do – be helpful, be kind , figure things out as he was your younger brother and promptly dump him- because, you know, there just no chemistry but he’s good for Raizy…

If he mess up the directions, says no sweat & laughs, and pulls into a nice looking park, and confidently leads a pleasant improvised date & makes an event out of the pond – even if you never made it to the cafe – he’s got the potential to be a keeper.

Yeshiva Guys are often intimidated by girls – who know far more about the world then they do, and have often been successfully employed for years – need to confident enough in their identity as Talmid Chacham to compensate for that lack of knowledge. Of course, if they are a shlepper who’s done nothing for the last few years – well, how can she respect him- ? That’s what we call no chemistry in french.

You can “kasher” a shaver – take each blade, and rub each individual blade (the little ones) on a key several times, not missing any blades – hence blunting, and not letting the blades cut without help from the screen.

Of course, it will not shave as well, which is the point. Don’t miss any blades!!!

If you can get someone’s beard hair, see if the blade cuts the hair when the hair is held taunt. and viola.

I have heard of many Talmidey Chachamim who do it quietly with gevirim, in terms of support exceeding 20/30 thousand a year and chasunuos. But only top notch, established talmidey chachamim & marbitzey torah. R’ Moshe writes, though, that true yissachar zevulun was to split both the fortune and the learning (not merely full support). But one who supports a major talmid chacham certainly has tremendous zechusim!

A positive tzinius thread! Hurray!

Big One – what does the phrase “normally assur” mean? Does it mean that you havn’t done it – or your community? Does that mean that anything your community hasn’t done is prohibited until proved otherwise? Cute. But not Halacha. Respect the Halacha. Halacha only respects reason. Not emotions.

1- Entering a conservative temple; can anybody make a reasonable argument that such a thing would be prohibited? Remember, we need an actually issur, d’orayasah or d’rabban. Not ” mamish avadeh”. My Shulchan Aruch is missing that chelek. Beis Minus? Maybe. Avraham Yehoshua Heschel was certainly an apikporus, as were other conservative leaders. But they are not worshiping another god. They deny Torah principles, which may be Kefirah – but is not worse then a university – certainly one could enter. I believe it is permitted, though should only be done when there are no other options.

2- Attending an intermarriage – I could hear it being forbidden; you are joining a celebration, and by definition celebrating, a horrible issur (even more then an issur, an opting out of khal yisrael).

3-An event which is not tzinius. Yes, we all must avoid nisyonos shemiras einayim. But to attend an event which has immodest people there is categorically permissible, if the event is unique ( hopefully your brother will not have a second marriage), under the principle of Lekeh Darka Acharina, and then Shemiras Einyanim is obligatory. Business people rely on this everyday.

And if a not-yet-frum relative is marrying Jewish, it should be strongly celebrated and encouraged.

And hopefully, if you are clever, you can invalidate the marriage halachiclly (get two brothers to witnesses, whatever) and save Khal Yisrael some mamzerim if things don’t work out. Offer to officiate.

4- Eating in a non-kosher home – with mutual respect, disposable goods, saran wrap & silver foil, you can easily prepare a kosher meal in a treif kitchen. Ever eat airplane food?

5-Insisting on tzinius – would you pasul a FFB with non-frum relatives?

PS: Two ring kiddushin is a machlokes haposkim.

Any other great, horrible, issurim? After all, us FFBs have a flawless marriage record. I think BTs have added a lot to khal yisrael, besides for the tremendous kiddush hashem

Let me try again…

I have erred. I should have realized that this could have been a deep sensitive issue for some – something which I look at intellectually, because I have not been in shidduchim for a long time, and B”H did not spend long there. Hashem has tested me in other ways, but not that way. So I lack sensitivity. I look at shidduchim intellectually. I write my opinions for mental relaxation, a break from my demanding work.

Others may be more sensitive, and my intellectual, facts on the ground on the approach – can be deeply hurtful if you are in the midst of shidduchim, and the cruelty that it often brings. My justifications to such a person would feel hurtful. Right or wrong. I too would be caustic about the issue. I too would be sharp & angry. I too would feel insulted.

I should have picked on the clues that this was personal all along.

Unfortunately, shidduchim can be almost dehumanizing for girls in our society. That certainly generates very real resentment – if not at the boys, or at the system – or at an all too clear and relentless poster in an internet forum who forgets to realize that for some this is no intellectual exercise.

This being the case, I certainly apologize. I am sorry sacriledge. I did not approach this issue with due sensitivity. I hope you forgive me. And if you are indeed in shidduchim, I doubly apologize, and certainly hope that you find your zivug soon.

And I hope, friends, while I appreciate you sticking up for me, you will not err as did I.

Sacri-

First of all, with all due respect, chill.

Secondly, let me respond to your points one by one.

It makes you hypocritical, when you have symposiums and wag your head at how mad the outside world has filtered into our lives.

—

Exactly! This is what I said over and over again – and THIS IS A SYMPTON! But now it’s real, it’s here, and we can’t ignore it. If we get the mad secular world out of our five year olds brains, the next generation will be different! But we can’t deny the current – SAD UNFORTUNATE WISH IT WEREN’T THIS WAY – reality! It’s not hypocrisy; this is exactly the reason we make symposiums!Because we hope that later things will be different if we change things now. But ten years ago apparently we didn’t get the job done; look at what our boys are asking for! Quick , symposium. Not hypocrisy. Pragamatism. This is exactly what we want to change.

But we ain’t gonna change it by making miserable marriages.

“It makes you a hypocrite when you blast woman for being un-tzniusdik and being too attracting.”

=-

Again, this is what I said – this is a symptom! Women dress the way they do, and our boys get that image in their heads – THIS IS WHY WE BLAST THEM! (And yes, it’s sad cycle, boys ‘demand’, girls ‘comply’, and it only gets worse – chicken or the egg? etc. etc. etc.) But hypocrisy? Why? Why? Why?

” It makes you hypocritical when you can only wear a white shirt and black pants because that is a “uniform” of a Jew and the outside isnt the ikkar. Want more examples?”

Yes, our girls are more focused on penimius; B”H (though many are not). And more power to them. And they will profit in their marriages in a way that the boys won’t, by being able to marry a boy who is more average- but will respect and take care of them far more then – well, yeshivish Tom Cruise.

But are you complaining about hypocrisy? Or just anger at a sad reality? In which case I am angry too – I just won’t blame the boys, and won’t ignore reality when redting a shidduch.

(which is ok too, you are entitled to vent that average otherwise wonderful girls are ignored because our boys have been brainwashed by the media & ‘frum’ fashion – that’s true and worth venting over.

But it’s also reality, and we need to deal with as it is now – it’s not a question of blame – and dress more modest, and seal out the outside world, for the next crop of shidduchim, so that this won’t happen anymore).

We have to deal with the sad facts on the ground, and hope that they change in the future if we work on the underlying causes and not get obessed with the symptoms. Yes, we have a problem.

That a boy would refuse a date with a girl just because her parents aren’t wealthy or because her height or dress size is unacceptable — no matter how good are her brains or midot — is something that is contrary to everything we are supposed to value. It is PRECISELY the very objectification of women that we claim to decry. We talk the talk but we don’t walk the walk and we adopt the worst of the non-Jewish culture, not the best.”

“Unacceptable” – why? Where on earth did that come from? Can a marriage run on ‘middot & brains’ – without attraction? Sorry, it’d be nice to condemn orthodoxy for that, but it silly. It’s called being human. These factors are part of attraction; you could argue the young man shouldn’t rely on these objective factors and see for himself – fine. But attraction is important, and does not make us hypocritical.

Find something else to condemn the religious world for.

Yes, our boys want to be attracted to their wives whom they will be faithful to till death. No, merely brains & middos alone won’t cut it.

That makes up hypocritical? Silly silly.

Of course, there is the real danger of marrying someone for their looks alone – which promises hell in marriage and ultimately repulsion. But brains & middos ain’t do it either if he (or she!) isn’t attracted to him or her.

If you marry someone you find ugly, later you & them will suffer. Tis a fact. It’s not objectification. Objectification would be – say – well, a 24/7 media selling everything with ____. Not a culture that is only interested in attraction for marriage. I consider that to be a light unto the nations.

(And money has been discussed elsewhere , so I’m going to leave it alone.)

Sacri-

“Marriage Material. Nowadays many guys ask for a picture before going on a date, honestly I have no problem with that (besides I get to see before we meet how vain you are) but then I get back that its not what they are looking for… Right, because 5’2 with blonde hair makes a better wife than 5’9 with brown hair… Seriously.”

Again, you don’t understand the male brain. If that’s his hangup, it’s his hangup. And you won’t understand. But it’s real for him. He wants a petite girl. Shoen, it’s his meshugas. But it’s real meshugas. He watched on TV, saw it in the street & at chasunas and we’ve programmed him. Seriously.

I think asking for a picture is usually in the girl’s favor (gives her a chance to attract him w/o all the objective factors) – but I didn’t know it became common in frum circles – has it?

SJS is right though, not that insisting on attraction is silly – indeed all have our ‘items’ (points for the euphemism), but having an exact image of what you will be attracted to is.

Now, certain factors I could understand, but some indeed go into the realm of stupid. But usually I think that’s not the case. I guys have a basic image of who they can be seriously attracted to, which is accurate. One could argue that it’s still worth a date, but a boy would reply that he has a list three miles long anyway (so why not have some filtering questions, because anyways they are all the same on paper).

And once they are at that point, they need to look for that. People are different, and shouldn’t deny that. Shidduchim is not time for spiritual growth; it’s time for realism.

I’m not sure if this is the place; especially in a mixed enviroment. May I suggest guardyoureyes.org (a frum website), which has extensives forums and is run al pi daas torah.

right! we need a kol koreh for boys to be attracted to average girls!

That would work!

Come on, these boys didn’t make this up; society conditioned them this way. If we wouldn’t be exposed to 24/7 to these standards – both in our community and from the secular world,we would have lower standards. But until we fix our tzinius problem and stop exposing ourselves to the entire secular world – well, this is the standard our girls will be held at. And then,

But after twenty years of conditioning about what acceptable beauty is, what on earth do you want from the guy? Indeed, attraction is not a choice. It either is or isn’t. Granted, if a date is not replusive, sometimes, over a few dates they can seem more attractive if there is real chemistry elsewhere. And sometimes not.

Yes, the current standards are silly, and are a direct influence from the secular world (and the wonderful frum world of fashion) – but by the time a boy gets to shidduchim, they are real.

And yes, it gives a stunning girl a tremendous advantage in shidduchim that can cover up almost any chesaron – until after the chuppah, of course.

R’ Eliyahu Goldschmidt (Dear Son/Daugther) opens up his shidduchim tape with admonishing boys to be honest with themselves about looks ‘one may not marry a woman without seeing her – perhaps he will find something ugly about her and come to despise her’.

But look to the causes, not the boys.

Looks – for both men & women, are important and real. Build a relationship on it? heck no. But when there is a real relationship, they are certainly important. It’d be wonderful to pretend that it’s shallow. Let us not get into a quote battle.

Girls have standards too; true, they aren’t as visual as boys, but many ask how tall a boy is – gee, isn’t that shallow.

I suppose they need a kol korey, too.

And if a boy sees that a girl – wonderful as she may be – doesn’t cut it in the looks department , no matter what – should he torment her for a second date? And if he says no, should he say ‘she looks at a dying rat’ or should he say ‘what a fine girl; I’m sure she’s a wonderful match for my Chavrusa – for me, we pashut didn’t click’

Shadchan, by the way, have always lied. It is traditional – in a sad way. The Rashbah permits Shadchanim to take money on this basis – after all, shidduchim are a mitzvah, and hence should be forbidden to charge for – ‘but they lie, and that is not a mitzvah, and for that they take money’. So this problem goes way back.

How many 30 year old poskim/Roshey Yeshivah do you know of today? The average age in seems to in the late thirties before they take a position.

“But to make it easier lets put it this way – can Yeshivish people respect the MO viewpoints and rabbonim? Some yes, many no. [that goes both ways”

I’m actually going to go for honesty here.

What do you mean by modern orthodox? Do you mean ‘dati leumi’, that is stringent adherence to halacha incorporating religious zionism? Then yes, the ‘Yeshivish’ or say Charedi community ultimately has a single disagreement with them – the place of Eretz Yisrael in our day and age. The rest – the flowing skirts, the headcoverings (heck! no shaitels! kol hakavod!) , the different dress, yada yada – that’s all societal. Then, when a real viewpoint comes up them, it should be respected. heck, most ‘yeshivish’ people eat OU – in which case you are relying on the Rav Herschel Shachter (him and Rav Belsky are the OU’s go to people). So I hope the yeshivish world respects his psakim. He is a master in all Chederey Torah (and does not say Hallel on Yom HaAtzamaut, see B’Ikevy HaTzaon, Siman Lamed Ches – I think).

Do you mean MO which slowly but surely seems to start looking like conservative – aka open mingling of the genders, mixed swimming, a breakdown of all of traditional halacha – then we have a problem. We have a fundamental disagreement. I see two schools of MO – and this is just my own prejudice and limited knowledge – one represented by R’ Herschel Shachter, and the RCA chevra. And one represented by Avi Weiss. R’ Herschel Shachter and the RCA Beis Din? Don’t agree with them on everything. But we share a common ground, like we do with Chassidim & Sfardim – different approaches, a single Halacha.

Avi Weiss? I have no common ground. YU’s ‘forums’ and dorms for mischavey zachar? No common ground.

And one must separate R’ Herschel – and the other YU magidey Shiur from YU itself.

I recall a friend who was leaving YU. R’ Herschel asked him why. He said – ‘Rebbe told me that going to this class was an issur dorayasah (an art class which featured – well , the inappropriate) – but the Administration didn’t listen to you. I am going to listen to you. It’s time to go’. And leave he did.

In other words, I don’t consider them to a branch of orthodoxy. Dati LeUmi etc. – certainly. And then respect is prerequisite.

And I believe that goes both ways. If I am – well – a caveman, I don’t suppose I am respected either. But if I am a Halachic standpoint which is too stringent – then I suppose there is mutual respect.

Do we speak of those funny orange turbans things? Respect. Uncovered hair? Nope.

An Ally; she fought the husband along side her patient. She lost her impartiality (maybe her husband was a jerk too). I’m sure it could happen to a male therapist who lacks professionalism as well.

The second person they saw – who fixed them up nicely – said it took him another six months to undo the garbage from the first idiot. I think ultimately they saw him for a year and a half, give or take.

And definetely, it’s more open in the secular world, but usually there still is a stigma. And they are more open about everything, and how messed up they are. We try not to be.

Again, I think therapy can work wonders – if it’s necessary, and the therapist has real academic credentials, experience, and a real genuine brain. Which means they will cost a lot more. But divorce, I suppose, is more expensive.

if you will be a therapist, please, be a good one. I have a special hatred for incompetent therapist, because I also believe that therapy often can be so helpful – and I personally saw a couple (a relative) almost get divorced because of a female marriage counselor who quickly became a female ally. They separated (!) and finally figured out that the counselor had gotten them that far. They threw her overboard and saved the ship (different shrink, far better – and a happy ending). They didn’t even need to cast a goral.

Confused by the attitude towards therapy? It has always been this way – in the secular world as well. And as I said, there are so many bad therapists, who either discovered problems or nod their head for a three years worth of therapy (‘and how did that make you feel? ahha? It’s because of your mother…’) and often , people go to therapists with a “fix me” attitude which stops them from actually with their own issues.

Though there are many excellent professionals who do excellent work. I have seem a lot of professionals up close, and I have never seen a masters level professional get anything done; it seems like real work requires a doctorate. But that too, it my own limited experience.

Popa –

Sorry, you’re right. I mean emotional issues.

But you are also right; what is the geder of relevant. I don’t know; I suppose one could judge on a case by case basis.

And on thinking about, you are right, you do create a catch 22, because ultimately who wants to hide something that is a real part of you from your spouse – where there should be no secrets. And ultimately, the broken trust could be worse then anything else (you were in therapy for three years because_________ and you never told me?!!1- would ‘I spoke to my Rav, he said not to tell, and my therapist gave me a clean bill of health’ – suffice?)

I do not know. I see your point.

I know it never took hold, but it was rejected? As I recall, I was under the impression R’ Elyashiv approved (Halachically) the RCA’s prenup alast kfia b’get.

Why was it rejected? By who? I could see various reasons why, though.

I could see a standardized evaluation for everyone who is shidduch age – entering lakewood/post sem. I see that. That’s not a bad idea. Make it more hemishe, let “evaluations” last a few sessions – I could see that happening.

I would add higher salaries for masgichim and more psycological training. There are de facto shrinks, and there is no bizayon in seeing them. Same for the sems.

Throw in divorce penups for everyone ($150/day or half you pro rated salary for every day you don’t show up or adhere to Beis Din), and we’d be on our way to a solution.

Yes, and of two things happen –

if one is a monster, the other gets tortured – either until they kill a part of themselves so they can live with it, or get divorced.

if both are well meaning good messed up people – THEN they get therapy. much more expensive, complicated and sometimes they still get divorced. especially if they get an idiotic therapist.

sometimes you get a second chance. sometimes you don’t.

and a second successful marriage? happens. sometimes. not too often, though.