Moq

Fascinating. Ok, I’m going to address the rationale stuff 🙂

Aries

– as always, your graciousness is appreciated. Hopefully, conversations like this will eventually breed a grass roots solution.

And 90% of the time, Gedoley Yisroel are passive – AKA giving Haskamos to initiatives started by a “meshugena l’davar echad” – aka, Sarah Schnierer or Rosenberg (Shaatnez) etc. It would certainly be an honor to be called a Meshugena for these kids.

As Per R’ Menashe Klien’s Psak –

There are two aspects here –

Punishment – that requires a full classical Torah standard of proof. We cannot dish out punishment or reprisal or cause punishment without it. Nor can we cause a punishment that is no Beis Din like. So we cannot use the secular courts for punishment. I think that Mr. Pasik Esq. and Aries will agree with this.

And based on that we can understand why so many were silent.

But there is a second, more important aspect, and that with bitter experience – and this is where our community has erred until now, and why those who tried to brush things under the rug should made a costly mistake , but were not evil – prevention. Rodef. And R’ Menashe Klien is correct, if you can stop a Rodef in another way, you must, But…bitter, painful, experience has shown that they pick themselves up and find another school. And in today’s 30,000 a year yeshivos, we need to take whom we can get. And he attacks again. Gets fired. Attacks again.

The only way to permanently keep the Rodef from stiking again is either incarceration or the electric chair. Firing just doesn’t stop the Rodef. We’ve protect this years class. But not the next yeshiva – and if he does it, again and again, as research – reliable, none hysterical research has shown a tremendous recidivism rate when around children – he needs to be locked up for a nice amount of years, and then be branded as sex offender.

And a Rodef requires a lower standard of proof then punishment.

When we see someone chasing someone else with a knife, we need not ask Beis Din. We need to lock & load. But what standard? Whatever it is – it is not the classical Torah standard of proof. Soklin V’Sorfim Al HaChazakos. This requires more research (for instance, we permit a late term abortion to the save the Mother’s life, based on the say so of a professional. Obviously, we would not execute someone based on this. But we are permitted to kill baby – Hashem Yishmor – based on the Din Rodef.)

Again, I don’t think we should let the police determine this, but the standard is definitely lower then two witnesses etc. And since experience has shown that the only way to prevent is via the authorities, we must do so.

(Mr. Pasik – what has the success rate been with chemical castration? I know in Israel the injections are often a condition of parole, and are covered by insurance).

A child’s word should be taken into account – even more so, his behavior & actions being consistent with the clinical behavior of a victim, certainly if he attempts to molest another child (of course, we know he’s a victim, but we don’t know from whom, even if he claims it’s Rebbe – it could very well be a parent, Hashem Yishmor. Investigate!).

Again, I’m not sure exactly where the line is. To give everything to the police is irresponsible. To wait for two witnesses is to let the Rodef keep killing. My idea is to have an internal investigation.

As Per R’ Elyashiv –

R’ Elyashiv says certain. True. But what on earth does that mean. He is well known for being concise. Certain does not davka mean two witnesses. I believe he means Rodef standard, because a Rodef clearly does not require two witnesses. We seek prevention by all means necessary, not punishment.

---

Some other aspects –

This has become a megefah amoungst us; I was told by a respected psychologist that our abuse rate has exceeded the general population. We need to find out why, and deal with it from there. I have what to say about this, but I’d like to hear your opinions first.

We need to be preventative, before the molester strikes

-Child education of what red lines are. Establishing a confidential reporting hotline (to my imaginary independent investigative force)

-Unfortunately, we need to require teaching professionals to treat children as girls. No yichud. No touching. Period. Makes things safer for everyone involved. And less excuses if accusations come up. And no yichud will prevent the opportunity for a false accusation.

-Video cameras in all classrooms. Small, subtle ones. Everyone is told about them. It’s not expensive, a few thousand dollars for a school. Again, protecting innocent children – and innocent rebbeim/teachers. You can easily keep recordings for a year, with compression and a few decent hard drives.

-Profiling & background checks. Why why why not? Everyone.

-A confidential helpline for the potential abuser. A place he can get help without getting arrested (before he strikes, obviously.) they often struggle with urges for years before they strike. What if there was a hotline, that a potential molester (who was molested himself) could call – that would pay for therapy, help him ease out of teaching via new training and money until he is settled elsewhere, with absolute legal confidentiality (assuming, of course, he hasn’t struck. Then we can’t protect him). Anonymous & helpful. And we’ve saved him and our kids. Figure $30,000 to help him get gainful employed elsewhere & therapy (and perhaps those wonderful injections?). And of course, keep in touch, ever so quietly. That’s a bargain.

-Raise the bar in our schools. Healthy people are not abusers. Because our schools struggle so much, often they hire nebichs. Healthy, put together people go elsewhere. If our schools paid $60,000 a year for a Rebbe and required a Masters degree (or semicha..whatever) – our rates would drop. Molesters are usually unsuccessful people, whom can only control children. But not always. Yes, it’s all about the Benjamins.

This is money we are spending anyway.

Thoughts?

See chevra, he quoted Brachot 1b! Hurray! No R’ Asher Yatzar, though. Or the Nebi. Or Beis Kisey.

Pointed made, rabosai? G’day.

Nope. And many of us don’t like the tea party. You smell like a translation throwing troll, ignorant of any opinions that you don’t have a translation of. Check Brachot 1b for me, will you? Sorry. Your total lack of complexity in your understanding (and Isaiah? who the heck calls Yeshaya Isaiah?).

Sorry buddy. I debate pretty much everyone here – ‘cept trolls. I don’t like the tea party. But you’re a liberal loony tune – an off key one at that, trying to demonstrate your sad knowledge of searchable translation on core Jewish values. First Avos. Now the Rambam. Give us some…oh, Avos d’rebbe boich, or Torah Beis Kisey, or Rabbi Asher Yatzar’s classic political writings ( Reb Doniel, you should quote him by name!) ( SEFER Bar Bey Rav D’ Chad Yoma). But you won’t! Because they aren’t googlable!

Again, you lack the education about basic core Jewish values. Stick to morals, my dear troll. Go vote for all those democratic tzaquim (how did you spell it? and nevi – ah yes, a nevi. Maybe Nebi. We only listen to the words of a Nebi, not Nevi! Do better homework next time. You know, like Nebi Samuel in Israel…nebish )

And how exactly can Jewish not be Torah Observant? Not that a proud one wouldn’t, especially not one who is preaching core Jewish values…

Oops…oops…oops…

Back to troll school. Maybe try to be a muslim…wait…no…they don’t need to be convinced to vote democratic. Wonder why. Guess they got those core Jewish values. Wait…

Have fun with Matthew.

Tsk tsk.

http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2010/04/27/ludwigvanquixote/

…not that, being a proud Jew, you’d be quoting matthew. Oops!

Brachot 1b…check it out.

I have not enjoyed a thread this much in a while.

The Torah teaches us not to be narrow minded. And since I am right, you must be narrow minded. This is great stuff!

I am not Pious. Merely intelligent and troll proof – at least, the obvious ones. Bye Troll! You are certainly a big enough poskin for anyone. great nebi poskin! Hurray for Obama! Hurray for Nebi Poskin!

Sorry, you lost as your credibility trying to pose as one of us. Now, run off to your phone bank, you’ve got a lot of work to do to make sure you don’t lose the senate ( I mean , congress isn’t worth wasting your time over).

Next time, use an artscroll talmud. See page 1b of Tractate Brachot, to see what I mean. The secret of winning the election is written there.

Hurray! Two years of gridlock until we get rid of Obama. Just…no Palin please? It hurt me to vote for her last time. She needs help. Which is why we need Obamacare. Because she can’t afford it.

I doubt we’ll see ludwig again. He’s busy, he’ll find another site to troll on. Love the music! Adios!

Best restaurant in the entire universe. Worth a trip from mars. It’s the one thing good about NYC 🙂

Ludwig, in a word, busted. Nice try though.

Gavra – I think they have one in Sanhedria Murchevet.

Ludwig – are you Jewish? Simple question. Until you can answer that question, please don’t interpret our Torah for us. We’ve been doing it for a while. I wouldn’t interpret Matthew & Luke for you.

It is insulting.

And I didn’t say if I agreed with the tea party or not ( I don’t. I think Palin should be put in a sideshow).

I said you are a troll. That’s my main ideological point. It’s dishonest for a Christian to come here and try to interpret our tradition for us. I’m fine with discussing morals with you, but not my tradition. That’s for us.

You are engaging in “stealth campaigning” presumably bankrolled by some 527 group. Wait. We don’t need those anymore. You are being dishonest. What does Jewish Law say about that? Or Christian law?

You aren’t being very Christian. Tsk tsk.

Please, no more hyperbole. Just answer my question.

Chevra, maybe let’s hold off the lomdus till ludwig clarifies who he is. I believe he is a troll. Google his screenname, if you’d like to find out more. Err Iz Nit Fun Unzer.

Ramat is right; the molesters prey on uncared & unloved children, children with broken homes that no one will follow up with, children that are more vulnerable. Never with the child who’s parents are capable of bringing hell down on them (which they well should!). Never with the child who has a healthy sense of self & boundaries, and know when they are violated – because of healthy, proactive parenting. Never the parents who’s children are confident enough in their parents love to confide in them something that made them feel – violated & used.

They go after the kid that no one really cares about anyway. And the family that will be even more ostracized if they go public; how dare they accuse ___________.

So aren’t we all guilty?

80% of molesters have been molested themselves. Unfortunately, in my line of work, I’ve seen both sides of this horrible coin.

Children lie. Women in divorce proceedings lie. Over and over. It’s sad. But the Torah’s standard is golden; I refuse to destroy someone’s life on the say so of a child.

But I will install hidden cameras. I will profile the accused. I will do a background check (if I haven’t already, as a responsible employer). I will get the child a full examination by a rape nurse, and obtain whatever physical evidence I can.

Heck, I will ask for identifying marks and follow the guy into the mikvah ( I haven’t had the zechus, but I know someone who arranged a PI to do so).

90% of the time, you can get what you need that way. You are obligated to look. But if you don’t find – don’t you dare destroy the man’s life, wife , children, career and future. As oomis illustrated – how easy it is to destroy someone’s life. Think Salem Witch trials.

And of course, if you have two children – in different classes, or different schools, etc. (because kids unfortunately do work in groups some times) – or three – well, it’s time to get the wood burning. Or the molesters.

But it’s not enough – the mere say so of a child – to deliver him to the police, whom have vindicated the guilty and jailed innocent too many times.

And what about once I have evidence? 80& of molesters were molested themselves. I spoke to a Forensic Psychologist who described child molesters as addicts. Ohel even has an anonymous line for them to get help (treatment is available). Of course, the potential molester will have to go into another line of work. Like coal mining. In new zealand.

Once upon a time we had hoped that it would be enough to approach a molester and say “you will quit your job. you will leave the community. you will never teacher youngster again – or else”.

That didn’t work. Molesters lie. Molesters know the game, of statues of limitations and the fear of the victim to step forward, and the community humiliation that will be heaped upon him. Molesters are victims, just like abusive husband were abused. Our first concern is the wife. As Aries pointed out , though they were abused themselves – they are very cunning ( I suppose the word evil is appropriate as well).

But if we don’t have a child willing to testify – what exactly can we do? If we go public, we get busted for libel, because we don’t have legal proof. And if we get proof, a principal needs to weigh that against the destruction of his school. Ouch.

Ultimately though, those are risk you need to take – if you have proof. But it ain’t easy. What do I really wish for? For these cases to be dealt with quietly and permanently – that when an underground beis din has sufficient proof – to end the problem, by any means necessary. My grandfather A”H told me that’s what they did in Europe.

That’s why I think Agudah’s opposing the legislation removing the statue of limitations on institutional liability was a good idea. Because schools will be willing to come down on an abuser much quicker – if it doesn’t mean the legal destruction of the school.

Again, you can’t purely rely on a child. But a smart school – or even private PI firm – which works based on confidentiality and is not obligated to report it’s findings to the government – can usually figure out what really is going on.

Getting somebody’s internet records is relatively easy with a little know how. And trust me, if he did something to a child, you’ll see it in his internet usage. But you need correlation before you destroy someone.

Etc., etc. And from all of this you can see why the system doesn’t work so well. Yet.

We need to educate our schools on profiling, and investigation. And the guilty? Hang’em out to dry.

---

As far as using goyish courts, we are permitted to use to get something done that we can’t in Beis Din. Beis Din simply does not have the power to stop a molester. If we have the Halachic standard of proof that this man is a molester, the next stop is the DA’s office. The Halachic imperative is protect the child. From any definition, it is Nezek. Any Nezek, which does not cease – we may do whatever is necessary to stop the nezek (Avid Ish Din L’Atzmay). Nevermind if it reaches the stage of mazilin b’nafsho. Even without that, if Beis Din cannot stop it (the most they can do – is order him to stop it! and a Yareh Shamayim he’s not) – they we must get the police involved, and assist however we can.

But we should cry after we do. Because the Torah is commanding us to kill a sick yid. True, it is what we must do. But at least – let us cry afterward, for the victim hood that made him a monster, for the system that didn’t save him from his abuser.

Let us not say “no rachamus” – after we’ve protected his victim and future victims ( by all means necessary!).

Let us help his wife, children. Let us not make them community pariahs – for what have they done? And if he has truly done his time, and takes up gainful work in mining in New Zealand – let us let him rebuild his broken life and broken soul (though quietly watch him carefully).

Aries –

While I appreciate your passion for these children – I believe in the Halachic process. I don’t believe in Doctors. A doctor will shoot first and ask question later, because he’s obligated to report anything, and wants to cover himself.

I think the approach of running to the police first will destroy innocent lives – no less of a crime! I have a lot of firsthand experience – which I wish I didn’t have – ( as it seems, you do as well), the nitty gritty type, with victims and abusers – and the innocent. The “take the decision out of your hands” approach will hurt more then it save.

Though I agree with you that we need a better system them we have now (Chicago’s abuse Beis Din is a great idea) – your approach would have had oomis’s husband behind bars, had he not had others there.

In summary, we need an internal system with teeth.

And Rabbonim are not malachim. Maybe if there income wasn’t constantly based on the whims of the board members, they would be able to take more risks. If we want real independent Rabbonim, we need to make a system for such.

idiot repellent

Wow. No Yated online, eh? I recall someone humiliating me ten years ago as a teenager. It still hurts now when I think about it.

The dolphins talk on the moon? Cool.

The pull – is overwhelming. The feeling of disgust – is overwhelming. They weren’t merely speaking of shemiras einayim, but of the resulting addictions. It’s an epidemic. And yes, it’s a major, major cause of OTD – in all ages.

No, Tireh Bridah, that’s the shaala- are they disagreeing? Or are they just saying examples to illustrate the point.

I have to dig up sources on this later. I think there’s a diyun on this in pischey brachos, I’ll check later.

Dah! There is a difference between compromise and gradualism. We are taught not to jump Dargos; to absorb things piece by piece. There is a difference between step by step; we cannot always live all our ideals but we can still strive for them and it doesn’t make us hypocrites! It makes us human, with nisayonos, with having a reason for being alive. Saying “I believe in that but I’m not ready for it yet, but IYH I will be” is perfectly valid.

There is another aspect – – that it may be that the rishonim in paas habah b’kisin are merely examples of snack-bread, but the real principles is it meal-bread, or snack bread. Is it meant to be filling? If that’s the case, one could say that pizza is a filling food, and even when you are not be koveah suedeh, you would have to wash, just like regular bread. A similar line of reasoning could be made for a bagel dog – even though it’s memulah, it’s meal bread. Or pancakes. Or blintzes. All would have this question. They are memulah, and may even be made with fruit juice, but it could be that that is not the crux of the issue, but the issue is – is a single blintz a snack? Or is it a meal food, merely you are snacking on it.

Is pizza beztem a snack food – like cake ? Isn’t it betzem a meal? I mean, you could also eat bread as a snack.

Touche, wolf!

Well, there you have it.

I hate translating, because so much is lost, but here you go. And yes, I had to add a little here and there, because some things don’t translate.

…And that which you have written, that many Yerim V’Sheleim who work in various professional fields, still their main goal in life is Torah and mitzvos – you ask, are they not Bney Torah??

And I answer, I have already written that they are Anishm Kasherim, yet it is not possible to consider them Bney Torah –

Because although the Torah was lenient, that not everyone is totally obligated to become a Talmid Chacham – yet the name Bney Torah & Talmid Chacham is reserved for someone who does the mitzvah of Talmud Torah properly, that is, to be worthy of the crown of Torah. And that is only one who does not spend his time on anything else, merely business or work in order to live minimally . And when he cannot obtain that, he eats from Tzeddaka.

And for hundred of years we have permitted people to work in Rabbinics for payment, or being a magid shiur in Yeshivos, and then certainly one could take such a position.

But if one does not wish to have such a position, but seeks a trade which will take up his entire day, because he seeks riches, and certainly if his goal is to be a Doctor or an Engineer – that then one must leave his Torah completely for many years, even before he will make any money, and he will require loans and gifts to learn these trades – it is not possible to think that a Ben Torah could be developed in such a way.

??”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ??

???”? ??”? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? – ??? ???? ????? ??? ????. ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ????. ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???. ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ???? ????. ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????. ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????. ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????, ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????, ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???, ??? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ????, ?? ???? ????? ??? ??????, ??”? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????, ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????, ???? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???.

Well, there you have. Yes, I know I am quoting in a vacuum. Just adding some fuel to the fire 🙂

Mdd, is there a better way? A list of twenty girls, – it’s wrong not to check out each one and not have a filtering mechanism? That’s how the world works; shidduchim are not a gemach. It’s not fair. I know. But because it’s not fair doesn’t mean it’s broken. I don’t believe things can be different. Stereotypes exist and are useful; we just need to play them as best as we can.

Aishes Chayil-

No, you won’t.

IYH you will have an excellent boy, fine & shtark (from Brisk, of course), and you too will be inundated with phone calls and names. And you to will say “DAAAH! Ok, let’s, they say this seminary is excellent, these families seem great – OK, that will give me five names. And this one taught my daughter last year, and the fact they have money doesn’t hurt, and Chani told me she was really pretty, so I’m going to check into her first. And take the phone off the hook.”

And if someone redts your gem a Baalas Teshuvah, you too smile politely and not write down the name. At best, presumably you won’t be insulted.

You should be zoche to see my words come true; this is the way it is, and I don’t believe it can be differently.

And it will be unfair. And it will be the only thing you’ll be able to do. Because it will be about your son, not about fair. And why not go with the shidduch without any question marks? Of course, you may feel a nagging guilt, but your son will take priority.

Again, doesn’t mean it’s fair. It’s not. But nothing is fair; that is the nature of this world. Play the system; we just need to wary of believing in the system – and letting it define who we are. Because the system gives you a hard time doesn’t that will be any less of a wife. It’s just, well , the system.

Yes, people stereotype. For all of the concerns people wrote – even if they do not apply to you. Shidduchim run on stereotypes. Lists. Numbers. Labels. It keeps the process somewhat efficient; in a world with lists and lists of eligible young people we need to have some sort of sorting process.

And yes, that means that some eligible people will lose out because of the system. But a system we need. Be nice if it was better. But it ain’t.

As you agree, there are valid concerns with a Baal Teshuvah; true, checking could eliminate many of them (though not all). But is it reasonable to expect every mom to check every single girl thoroughly? Obviously, there has to be something to start with; and that’s going to be based on labels and stereotypes. And labels are helpful, even if they aren’t perfect.

Yes, you’re getting a raw deal from the system. Unfortunately , you are not it’s only victim. So are boys who didn’t go to Lakewood, girl’s who’s dream sem already took two girls from her city, a child of divorced parents, and anybody who’s name sounds funny. It’s another challenge of being a Baalas Teshuvah; sounds like you’ve had others and beat those.

Be stubborn. Keep pushing. It only takes one. Yes, and you may have “pay” for your stereotype for someone’s else stereotype, and you’ll cancel each other out.

I was once asked by a girl from an excellent sem & family – she was redt to a boy from …an excellent yeshiva…and heard the finest things about him from his Roshey Yeshiva etc.. She was all set, until her brother vetoed it. Apparently he hadn’t davened with a minyan for two years.

She was very hurt; – she could have been a victim of the system, too! – who, she wanted to know, who, ended up marrying these fakers?

“The chashuveh prutzas in your chashuvah sem” I answered. She was happy. Fakers will marry fakers. Real people will marry real people. Divorces happen when they mix. Labels are labels.

We use them to narrow down the list.

Hashem uses them to play us like a broken fiddle.

How many boys with excellent resumes are abusers, addicts, mental illness…bedikos are a segulah, but not a havtacha…OY!

Stereotypes cut both ways. Hashem works out the real deal. Real things can never make it to a piece of paper; but alas, we can’t date everyone.

Your Bashert may have had a rough family life, or some meaningless childhood disease, or some other stereotype, that will force him to see past yours. And he will be lucky that he was forced to.

Or he may just rely on his Aunt who won’t stop badgering him (Aunts are good. Not as protective as Moms, but with a lot of influence).

So yeah, it’s real. There are so many questions it’s hard to start asking unless you have to. But what does that have to do with God?

Hatzlacha!

Angst. Yeah, cow who moo and do exactly what they are told don’t have angst. You angst will lead you in either one of two direction. Either you it can pull you of the D to satisfy your angst that way (which never actually works). Or you can use your angst to become truly great, to become REAL. Your call.

Get the answers you need. Become proactive; no one can do it for you. Search. Check out Aish.com, call up an intelligent teacher and spill the beans, stop being afraid of not being typical. Search. Discover. Read ‘Rejoice O Youth’ By R’ Avigdor Miller – heck, go to the book store and read the stuff you’ve never read before, challenge a Teacher/Rav with question you’ve never asked before.

Find out who you are. If you dare, I promise you’ll be thrilled with the answer.

Poor Stiepler. I’ve heard and read so many different spins on “what he really” and ‘whom he was talking to”…oy, Yiftach B’Doro K’Shmuel B’Doro…there is no acception for live, breathing Gedoley Olam to say “no, really, that’s what I meant. Really.”

Listen, dargas dargas. What’s good for the Gerrer Goose is Good for the Gerrer Gander..

Why does every simple question have to get personal? Firstly, Bombmaniac, his question is indeed valid. Ess HaBatzir was succos time (Chag HaAsif) and without modern refrigetation, presumably your choice was between drinking your grape juice or fermenting it into wine (points if someone gets in the interesting R’ Moshe about this).

I think Pesach time they takeh didn’t have grape juice.

And Bomb, even if someone doesn’t chas vchalilah think before they post, do you have to be obnoxious? Play nice.

But as to the OP’s question, if you use a min. shiur of a revis – of 3 oz, and drink only Rov , you’ve got only 1.6 Oz per cup. Of course, others hold even a cheekful suffices, and then you could drink only an oz (each individual is different). So over the entire four kosos, they only drank about five oz – nothing any OB would get excited over, – once a year! Kiddush, if you are being yotzeh – they had a sip.

Though the miscarriage rate was much higher then, as want infant and child mortality. Whatever we can do to prevent miscarriages, we certainly should do.

webcam!