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Ok, I’ll bite.
I’m intolerant of intolerance here 🙂
Cv’sh that you would be from a mo background??
I think that says it all.
I think perspective and reason is lost on you. I only hope it’s not lost on others.
My son was playing doctor one day. He says to me “open your eyes, open your mouth, let me listen to your ear…” (and he puts his ear smack up against mine to listen).
Health
Unless you are from a mo background, I’d suggest you refrain from telling us about who they are. You are disseminating inaccurate information that only leads to further misunderstanding and intolerance.
Ybrooklynteacher
A teacher has a right to confiscate only those things that are used inappropriately or that are distractions. Shoes, typically, don’t fit that category.
Am I the only one to notice that choppy grouped MO with not frum (seperate from chassidish, litvish, yeshivish)??
I know I’m pressing this point, but I do not consider myself MO, and yet, still, I would definitely not group these two groups (that have no shaychus) together.
I don’t think there’s a rule about it. Let’s call it a matter of safety and hygiene.
Assuming a child could slip and fall on wet, muddy untied shoelaces, if they come untied regularly, you can bring this to the attention of the parents to let them know that for future purchases, Velcro might be a better option.
You could also ask parents to double knot laces. However, some kids might get shoes on sale (fewer choices) or hand me downs where the choices are more limited. I don’t blame you for being irritated about it, but I think it would be overstepping your bounds to presume the right to tell parents how to dress their kids.
Someone locked eyes with me from across the room (same gender) at a simcha and waved vigorously looking for a response. I had absolutely no idea who this woman was, but from her reaction, felt as though I should. I nodded to acknowledge her, but clearly she did not get the response she was looking for. I felt so terrible.
I looked for her later to say hi and try to see if I knew her, but she had already left. Oh, well.
It seems like there are two completely different perspectives of residents of the UWS: some, who’s friends from there have all but left yiddishkeit, and others who’s friends have maintained their yiddishkeit. I think it’s fair to say that a community is made up of many types of people and that people will find what they’re looking for.
To presume that our perception of the world is the only accurate opinion may be a bit narcissistic.
Rabbiofberlin
+1
“It’s highly unlikely that they were really Frum. This occurs in the MO community more than others.”
What occurs in the MO community more than others??
That they were not really frum? That they send them to orthodox schools because it’s the social thing?
I’m surprised that you would say such a thing. It’s a blanket statement about an entire community that has no bearing on reality. With all due respect, you couldn’t possibly have known the MO community first hand if that’s what you think.
Within the MO community there are many different levels of yiddishkeit. Mainstream MO do not send to yeshiva because it’s the “in thing”. They send their kids to yeshiva as any frum family would to educate their kids in Torah and yiddishkeit. Just check out the Teaneck community and you’ll see what I mean. They have tons of yeshivas, shuls, shiurim, etc. Those families could’ve moved anywhere to fit in.
I wonder if the UWS is the primary influence of people becoming less frum or if they’re disillusioned with life (meaning, before they actually move, their yiddishkeit and emunah have already become weaker) and then they go to the UWS to seek social comfort and peer support.
It is VERY hard to be more mature (age wise) and single in the frum community. There really is no chevra other than the UWS that can minimize their suffering and the feeling that others view them as having issues contributing to their taking longer to marry.
It sounds very strange to me.
The “punishment” has to fit the “crime”. How was this consequence connected to his misbehavior?
Golfer
Maybe the thread already went to the next page?
It may still be listed, but there may be too many new responses to other threads to allow for a thread with no recent posts to be on the front page.
Moderating is a time consuming task.
It also puts mods is position where they have to read ugly/anti Torah responses (which, no doubt, has an impact on their neshomas) and then make a decision to include or delete. It’s not a job I envy, although I understand the importance of it.
I just think it would be more helpful to have a brief notation made when a remark is deleted to enable to writer to recognize their “wrong”. I imagine that it would also allow mods the opportunity to track how often posters are repeat offenders so that once they hit the third time, they’re prevented from posting, at least temporarily.
There seem to be a lot of posters who wonder why their posts were deleted (including, on occasion, me), which leads me to believe that the connection between our “offenses” and the rules of posting are not clear.
Perhaps a brief response in place of the post (“violation of rule #3) to allow posters a clue as to the offense would help.
A new thread of mine was recently deleted without explanation. I e-mailed staff and was simply told that responses to this topic were listed under home page news, not as a seperate topic in the coffee room. When have we ever had a rule that a topic in the news cannot be discussed in a thread??
This made absolutely no sense to me. It seemed like a willy nilly decision without a violation of any particular rule.
I would try to make my actions (to delete) self explanatory so that posters wouldn’t feel the need to question why their posts were deleted.
I think that being a moderator is a lot like being a parent.
When there seems to be a lack of consistency, no rhyme or reason to why certain posts are deleted and not others, it leads posters to question the competency and true motivations of the mods.
I would “nip” the verbal attacks in the bud much earlier.
I also think the role of the mod presents an awesome opportunity to help yidden with diverse hashkafos and opinions be able to learn mutual respect (like a mediator).
*How would you make your actions to delete self explanatory without posting the offending post?*
I wonder how many people commenting on this topic are actually in truly unhappy marriages.
My guess is, there are a lot of people with opinions and a lot of people without hands on experience into true unhappiness.
Please do some introspection into the severity of your own issues before making the leap of commenting on how others should react to theirs.
Unless you are chassidish, most people don’t leave the decision to stay or go to their rav. We seek advice and counsel and then make our own decision.
Do you feel that you’ve exhausted all means of improving your marriage?
I actually think shadchanim, parents, rabbis and just well meaning people need training in how to set people up (particularly, who is really ready/and how to help people “be ready”). I think people enter the shidduch world unprepared and we just assume when we “come of age” then that’s that.
I think if more couples went for premarital counseling, they would know each other better, in a way that would be more meaningful.
First of all, you’d have a birds eye view into whether the person you’re with is open to seeking guidance/help.
Secondly, an observer can sometimes point out patterns in communication that can lead to bigger problems down the line (ie: one person being mevater too often, compromising on very meaningful values, elements of an abusive personality (hidden sarcasm about one’s mate, passive aggressive behavior, ridiculing in a subtle way, a controlling personality). These are things that might make a person feel the shidduch is a bit “off”, but may be hard to identify, and might lead one to compromise.
People also walk away from a good shidduch out of fear. Though individual counseling might be called for in such a case, having a therapist meet and greet and get to know both parties can help them navigate through the challenges.
Some boys go to camp with them and return without them (meaning they’re shoved into their knapsacks).
Whenever there is late afternoon swim, the kids come home in their swim shorts and just throw their t shirts on for cover, without the tzitzis.
How pathetic that there’s even a need for this.
It speaks poorly of the Jewish world at large.
Yekke
That’s such a scary story!
Your mistaken belief is that you can influence a stranger and that you believe you know what’s right without even knowing her.
There are women who wouldn’t even cover their hair if they couldn’t wear the shaitel the way they like. Rabbanim take this into consideration when answering questions related to this.
You’re obviously not involved in Kiruv or you wouldn’t write (or think) like this).
Reb
Are you also going to tell her how long to hem her skirts, or the color stockings (or #denier/thickness) to buy, or how much makeup to put on (if at all)? Perhaps we should leave these choices of lifestyle to the person living with them.
Rosz
Good question.
It’s a matter of trust. I also think it’s wise after hearing of someone of interest to ask around amongst friends to be sure you’re receiving reliable information.
The truth is it’s all a matter of personal opinion.
Baldness vs longer hair are two very different things. Hair can grow longer.
Huh?
Did I miss something?
Why is this thread making you angry Goq?
Try easy Mexican:
Toss a bunch of tortilla chips on a microwaveable plate. Sprinkle with shredded cheddar and mozzarella cheese (mehadrin makes a bag of the combo), open a can of any kind of beans and toss some on top.
Microwave for 1 minute.
You can add some mild salsa or diced avocado if you’re ambitious.
You can do grilled cheese or “pizza” grilled cheese in your toaster oven.
If you don’t like to cook you can keep sliced lox or store bought egg/tuna salad in the fridge with a bag of whole wheat bagels and make sandwiches, or ww bread and smoked turkey.
Buy yourself pre-cut peppers, baby carrots, grape tomatoes so you don’t have to think about dicing veggies. Eat with low fat dressing.
Anything milk chocolate
So, if a girl wears garments to make her look thinner (spanx, etc), does she then have to tell him she’s actually 1″ wider? Oh, please!
Affordability and a weight watchers meeting.
Imagine being able to plan your points and lend and receive support with those eating the exact same foods?! What a mechaya!
I want to suggest that each of us comment on what we know first hand, from our own lives.
I’ve found with my friends and former classmates that those who were not connected socially, either to their family, their peers or their community, described venturing out of the realm of familiarity to seek comfort. I know of several baalos teshuva who explored other religions (to fill the emptiness) before arriving at frumkeit.
I think (and I’m open to your thoughts) that low self esteem can lead to one of two things: conformity, when accompanied by fear, and seeking an independent route, when perhaps, accompanied more by anger/resentment.
When my son cursed, recently, (something he does not hear in our home, but hears among peers), my husband took the high road. Although I was angry and wanted to punish him, my husband took the perspective of “our child needs to know that he’s above this kind of speech. That it’s beneath him to talk that way”.
I was astounded. He approached our child like a heiligeh Neshoma.
I grew up mo. It is SO not true that this lifestyle leads to going off the derech. How ridiculous!
I happen to have become more frum out of choice. Although my mother only covered her hair in shul, all of us (daughters) cover our hair fully, all the time. My parents kept taharas hamishpacha. None of the girls I went to school with except those on the serious fringe of frumkeit TO BEGIN WITH (the one and only who left a frum school to go to solomon Schechter) went off the derech.
I think this thread has caused more ignorance and damage than good.
Truly, the most ridiculous part is those who have no knowledge first hand of modern orthodoxy commenting on it’s effects on frumkeit
Goq
Lol 🙂
Popa +1
I don’t understand this assumption that MO have a higher rate of going OTD.
Where does the term “greasy” yeshiva guy come from?
Clearly no community is immune.
I have a new, unexplainable fear:
Sarcasm
Oomis
The crazy thing is that I used to love going on the biggest, fastest roller coasters at Great Adventure. You couldn’t get me off of them. Now, you can’t get me on them. Go figure!
This post is hysterical. I can’t tell you how many of the posters I thought were the opposite gender.
I was sure syag was a guy, coffee addict a girl.
I have a serious fear of heights. Whenever we drive over a bridge, my husband knows he has to move into a middle lane. I literally grip the seat from fear! It’s totally irrational. We once drove on an elevated highway (2,000 feet high) on vacation. I was laughing and crying from stress on the way “going” and had to lay down in the back seat returning to avoid seeing my surroundings.
Lesschumras
I don’t think it matters how many dates a couple goes on in terms of dating two at once interfering.
IMO, all it takes is one date to begin comparing. Again, it’s my opinion, but I speak from personal experience, not my general Hashkafah.
The second example you cite is completely different. The former date is no longer available. The girl is equally connected to both (meaning she can embrace a life with the second as easily as she would with the first). That would require her to be able to let go of the past, a phantom guy, and move on.
In my story, there was no phantom guy. They were both very much still there.
Perhaps there is some measure of maturity involved in being able to prioritize more practical marriage traits over others. But, when put to the test (and it’s a much harder test when two are in front of you) I think many would be swayed by looks unless c’v they’re blind.
Lesschumras
Wrong.
I knew EXACTLY what I wanted.
Attraction goes a long way in driving us towards wanting to be with someone. A Dayan has to be careful not to hear one side before the other lest he be swayed. The potential to be swayed/bribed by beauty (obviously when a shidduch isn’t totally off) is a real threat. That does not mean the person dating is immature inasmuch as the Torah does not view the potential to be swayed by a Dayan as meaning he is immature.
Speaking from experience, it’s a really bad idea.
You will naturally compare them. Superficial qualities may win you over and you could settle for the wrong reasons.
I was set up with two guys: the first, right on hashkafically and decent looking, the second, not exactly who I was looking for, but “drop dead gorgeous”. Guess who won out? I wound up dropping the drop dead gorgeous one later because it wasn’t a match, but by then, the other was “gone”.
I wasn’t even looking to date two at once. I had agreed to a date with one, when a friend called and pushed like mad for a date with the other. I figured what’s the harm? There’s no such thing as “just one date”. Each person has the potential to be your spouse. You need to be clear headed and block out all else.
We’re traveling on July 4th, using a GPS for directions. Our little one says “sharp left! Navigate to the nearest pizza store”. Lol!!!
Aren’t you allowed to keep the bread wrapped in paper and say hamotzie without touching the bread?
I also thought that just like you could turn the faucet on and off, you could pour directly from the bottle on your hands, if need be.