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BTW, I know a couple who the girl is a full head taller than the guy (and she is gorgeous, and could’ve gotten ‘anyone’). They are blissfully happy and, B’H, have beautiful children. She never demanded that he wear heels. You’re tall in height, but short in self esteem. You need to feel good about yourself regardless of the woman on your arms (you gave yourself away when you said you didn’t want people commenting about how you got THAT girl). Height is a maala, but it’s not everything.
Are you going to demand that she wear heels during the week lest she look shlumpy?
Were you unattracted to her overall or only from the ankles down?
This topic is as silly as it sounds. Frankly, if her whole appearance changed because of a pair of heels, I think she deserves better, and you, well……
I understand that heels can dress up a look. I understand that you are tall and feel more comfortable with a taller girl and came with a certain expectation of her.
Your entitled to have your preferences, but you’re faulting her for not guessing what they are. That’s a very big problem in marriage, when people expect their spouses to guess and know what their needs are. You need to start relationships in the right way. Take responsibility for conveying your needs and preferences, and don’t get mad at another for not being a good navi.
I think you should ask the shadchan to ask her if she would mind wearing heels on the next date. See if the attraction changes, and then start working on yourself to stop measuring attraction with a ruler.
Aren’t you the one who said women should stay home with their daughters while the husbands vacation? Certainly you would not be on my list. I sincerely hope you were joking!
Wow, HaQer,
I feel sorry for your wife and daughters.
Ever been caged yourself?
When I was in eretz YISRAEL for the year I went for a bracha from Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt’l.
A short while later I was at the kotel very late at night and wanted to catch the last bus back. I noticed what looked like hundreds, if not a thousand people davening at the kotel. I decided not to linger as I was afraid to get stuck.
That night I had a dream that a simple wooden chair was hovering above my head. I woke up and felt it was very ominous. I told my roommates about it, and discussed walking back to the kotel to Daven (as a group). Since no one wanted to go, I stayed back, said some tehillim myself and read (ironically, a story about rav Shlomo Zalman when he was a child). The next morning when I woke up, I heard the news that Rav Shlomo Zalman was niftar.
I felt that the chair represented din and that HKB’H was trying to wake people up to Daven.
I think certain schools do focus on midos. The girls that I’ve met from YOB have the best midos I’ve seen. It’s noticeable.
In general, academia is what’s most valued. Frankly, I think life skills is the most important thing to teach. IMHO, there need to be staff who work closely with students on developing confidence, the ability to work and think as part of a team (and part of that is midos), skills that allow students (on a basic level) to earn a living once they graduate (bookkeeping classes, etc). Kids are graduating and are pushed into shidduchim quickly, but lack the skills to be part of a marriage.
I agree with you. I think our school systems have gotten lost in the system.
I would have suggested a netilas yadayim towel or pot holders. In truth, anything you bring shows thoughtfulness.
I’d suggest bringing sugar free rugelach (bakery) for his dad. It shows you went the extra mile and were really thoughtful.
I know you’re nervous, but you’re going to have a great time, IY’H!
It seems that the comments applauding the greatness all come from men. Has anyone else noticed that?
Tomche,
Letova writes that the boys want money and wealth. Wanting a wife who will work is different than demanding wealth. Kamuvan the wife should work if her family (and his) has little or no money to contribute. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with their expecting that.
It is admirable from a frumkeit perspective, but we have to remember, people’s feelings are involved here.
Rav shimshon pincus,zt’l, was our teacher in seminary. Upon walking into the classroom, he would remove his eyeglasses, before teaching. It was so subtle. He was able to avoid actually seeing any of the women, while preserving our honor by making it appear like he simply didn’t need them to teach in class. It was only if someone made an effort to look did one notice that it appeared from his gaze that he could not see others. Truly admirable.
I’ve heard that also that interlocking fingers brings din.
Maybe you can try to be the one “in control” of the situation. If you see a frum man coming towards you on a path take a step to the side to give extra room. You actually might get part of the schar for the zehirus.
In terms of attitude, I know it’s insulting. I’ve felt it myself. Some men avert their eyes so completely, it’s almost like being invisible. My mother reinterpreted it for me saying” if you were a hundred year old unattractive woman they might behave differently, so take it as a compliment. That really helped me reframe it.
I think part of the question is are they ready to “date” for marriage. If the answer is no, then you should definately say something to your parents.
If yes, what are your concerns? That it’s not tachlis, that you don’t approve of her for him or that you think they might step over the line of appropriateness? How frum is he? if he’s not yeshivish you may not be able to hold him to those standards. If he is, talk to him. Tell him your concerns, if you think he’ll listen. If not, consult with a rav before talking to your parents. You need to know from a religious standpoint what you should be doing (and not doing, so as not to break up a potential shidduch). I would talk to your parents only after talking to a rav.
Wow WIY, thanks for that info.
I was also going to say, Daven in your own words. Is there something you feel strongly about, concern, worry, fear? When the feeling hits, whisper to HKB’H then. That builds a more meaningful connection. Also, think of HKB’H like your father (or any close person who’s been there for you) who you are coming to for advice, comfort and help.
It’s not true that all learning boys only want girls with money. It’s just not true. There are those who do, and those who that’s not their priority. I wonder why you’re being exposed only to those who want money??
I know many boys from chofetz Chaim yeshiva are not looking for wealthy wives. They’re taught to want to learn and go into chinch and many that I know of married regular women from normal families who’s families did not support. The women also didn’t have amazing careers. They became bookkeepers, secretaries, teachers, worked in offices etc. they were prepared, both of them, to be moser nefesh letorah.
I recently had to pay a shiva call to a friend of the family. I, too, was a little bit emotional, whereas, the family were quite calm and warm to those who came. I sat only very briefly with them and saw the conversation move to others shortly thereafter. I had the same concern as you, and my mother, who went with me, told me they were very private about their mourning and therefore, did not want to become emotional in front of everyone. What I learned from this is that it’s good to mirror the emotional state of the aveilim while expressing sincere condolences. That being said, it works only some of the time (to hold back). So, don’t beat yourself up for your reaction. Your being there with them and grieving with them heals them, even if it’s not said.
Yic
I didn’t understand your story completely. Your friend got married and has to follow whatever his wife’s family tells him to do?
I think if you have concerns you can voice them, but be careful. Ask him how he’s doing and just point out what you notice (that he’s out of touch with everyone). Let him respond. Don’t voice your own opinion about whether you think it’s ok or not without asking a rav or an organization like shalom task force. He might not mind pulling away socially, but if you tell him you think it’s not ok, he might re-think his own perspective and that can start shalom Bayis issues.
Getting angry and being justified in being angry are two different things. If I was exaggerating and joking with that request and they did it, I’d probably be angry, but I might not be justified if I didn’t make it clear that I was joking.
Walton
What do you mean “watch it..?”
What are you concerned about?
Suspenders with a pull over vest on top, if you don’t want them to show. You can also try white suspenders which will show less over a white shirt. You may be able to find them in clothing stores that outfit chassanim. Better to wear suspenders than worry about falling pants. You may start a trend!
It’s hard to know if it was intentional or not. My mom was once on a city bus and was maltreated by the driver. She was so upset and really believed it was, believe it or not, an anti- “white” attitude on his part (black driver). He apparently treated the black passengers in an obviously different way. In your case, it really could have been an oversight on his part. Unless he does that repeatedly, you have may have to attribute it to error. I agree with am YISRAEL. It’s probably best to ask several people to cover yourself.
You guys should get “scramble” if you have an iPhone or iPad. It’s exactly like this. You’d do great!
Kshmo,
Hopefully, you know more about him than just what he does or where he lives. That’s part of what research is for. Ask those who are recommending the shidduch how well they know this person and whether he is kind. Ask them to elaborate how did they observe or know this about him. Beyond that it becomes a matter of getting to know the person you’re with. Listen to the stories they tell, the language they use, the jokes they make. Do they ridicule others in their jokes? How do they treat your parents? When you come into the room, are they courteous to your parents in the way that they transition the conversation?
You’ll have opportunities to get to know the person.
Do you find that you have the ability to discriminate the kind from the unkind when choosing friends?
How do you know they are planning to take THOSE exact diapers that you are giving them to their parents. You’re not machshil unless you know for certain they are planning to do it (in my opinion). Again, I am not a rav, so don’t go by me, but it may be important to include that in your shaila.
There was a prior thread asking for shaitel macher recommendations. One person wrote back that they thought it inappropriate because people would think poorly of those not listed. Mother101’s comment got me thinking about when it would verses when it would not be appropriate to talk about things (meaning, what’s ok to say vs. what’s not. I think openly assessing quality is ok. But, maybe we should talk about what’s halachikly ok to mention first, before discussing this topic further.
Kshmo
I don’t think I answered your question adequately. There were signs before I got married. Big red flags. I ignored them. I don’t know if it’s possible to see the signs always. The women that I know who have issues in their marriages saw issues beforehand: potential in- laws who were way too involved in their sons life, religious differences that already bothered the woman beforehand, a show of lack of middos.
I saw kindness and good qualities in my husband, and still do (he’s a wonderful father, tries to be economically responsible (very hard worker), has a great sense of humor, I was attracted to him (personality and appearance).
I didn’t feel great about myself at that point in time, and didn’t stand up for the things I wanted. If you don’t stand up for yourself before, it will be much more difficult to do so later. Be clear about what’s important to you, what you should be willing to give up on versus what’s really crucial to a union. What things you can accept in a person you’re going on a “date” with versus what things you can or cannot accept in the long term. You can accept a lot more during an evening out with a person than you can for a lifetime. Be clear on priorities.
These are the things that I think are important in a marriage partner.
A growing person- someone who is working on improving his/herself and doesn’t just accept the status quo at any point in time (my husband told me he doesn’t strive to be a tzaddik, he’s ok with being mediocre. I thought this was a good thing, that he wanted to “perfect”being a beinoni before advancing towards tzidkus. I couldn’t be more wrong. He doesn’t want to take the responsibilities on that would enable him to advance. He learns b/c he loves learning, but it doesn’t bring him anywhere).
Emotional maturity – the ability to take responsibility in life:economically (to recognize a need and to do what’s necessary), socially (to look at oneself and see the role their issues play in a conflict. To acknowledge them, at least to oneself initially, and too work on remedying them. The ability to reach a point in time where one can acknowledge their own role and work on fixing it. The ability to work with another on resolving differences.
Good middos- being rochel and telling them nasty things said about them is not kind. I once went on vacation with my husband. He was upset about my weight gain and gave me such a hard time (this was 6 months after I gave birth) that I resorted to buying senna tea to try to lose weight. I had horrible stomach cramps from the tea on vacation (it’s a laxative). My husband does try to be supportive sometimes, but it’s interspersed with comments like that I didn’t belong sitting on the side of the table with the skinny people at a wedding, I should’ve been sitting on the side of the table with the fat people. How is that kind?
I’m sure there are more things, but for now those are the ones that come to mind. Maybe others would like to add their thoughts as to what is important in a marriage partner.
I would need to see evidence that these emotional issues are under control. How long has he been on meds Has he been taking them consistently? What is he like when he’s off the meds? How severe are these emotional issues? Are they the types of issues that can interfere with his ability to function properly as a marriage partner and parent? These questions are very important because at any point in time, if he stops taking his meds that will be the person you are left with. How much insight does he (appear)to have about his issues? How long has he been in therapy for? How long with THIS therapist (he could be non-committal to the therapeutic process just by switching therapists often. When they progress in therapy and they delve too deep into the issues does he run scared and switch therapists? It’s hard to get the answers to these questions, you might have to do them gradually, or ask a reliable third party who knows him. DO NOT brush ANYTHING under the carpet. It will come back to haunt you later if you do.the issues may be minor, but you need to know what you’re dealing with and talk to people to know. Emotional maturity and stability is very important in marriage. A mekubal once told me that my husband is immature (without having met him). If my husban feels hurt or challenged he will attack back verbally with a vengeance. So, I live in fear of truly standing up for what I want. How can I advocate well for my kids if I can’t see a disagreement through with my husband? I’m not saying anyone has to be a perfect person before committing, but there are levels of acceptability. I fear conflict. I grew up in a home where we were not taught to communicate openly. I’m the perfect match with my husband. I fear conflict, and I’m with someone who will “punish” me in his own way if I take an argument too far and try to ride it out. Threats are a major part of my life. Check how well you talk and work things out together.
I can’t tell you about generalities or other people’s situations, only my own. I can tell you he once repeated to me a nasty comment that was said about me by a friend of his. He told me his friend said to him”doesn’t it bother you that ……………’s so wide?” ok, so it’s nasty enough that a friend says something derogatory, but to repeat it? There were other signs as well. Just don’t brush thin sunder the carpet that bother you. If you’re troubled about his hashkafa, how he talks about family, anything, address it, either with him or another to get clarity.
Amen. Thank you.
By the way, don’t let my story scare you. There were signs that there were issues before we got married and I ignored them.
There’s talk of fallen trees and power lines and even flooding in some areas of the highway. Check and see if the roads you will use will be clear before venturing out.
Kshmo
No, it’s not ok and it’s not normal. The issue is my husbands, not mine. It became mine when I didn’t confront him about it and work it through. The problem that I face(d) is that my husband is what’s called an intermittent abuser. He doesn’t always act this way, so it makes leaving all the more confusing. He is sometimes thoughtful and kind, but he also has a very controlling personality. The problem is the public only sees the kind thoughtful person. They don’t hear him threatening to abandon me and our kids on vacation if I upset him, or his threats to drive even faster if I am scared in bad weather conditions and ask him to drive slower, or the whispers of ridicule about my weight that others don’t hear. It may seem obvious to leave but when children are involved the decision has to be weighed carefully. There may be signs of issues that are not verbal. If a friend who formerly dressed well and watched her weight begins to let herself go, this may be a sign of depression. If she declines getting together, preferring to just stay home (when she was a social butterfly), if she often doesn’t answer calls or return them, if she lacks the motivation to pusue goals (professional, etc) all these things may be indications of depression. It can also be just wanting to focus on her marriage. It is tricky to know what’s going on if someone denies it or says they’re ok. That’s why it’s important to stay in contact, keep your eyes open, give real opportunities to talk.
Single girls are noticed at weddings by shadchanim, well meaning people and mothers and relatives of boys of marriageable age.
Am yisroel chai
I totally agree. Very well said.
S2021
OMG. I just can’t imagine that someone else has gone through that same experience. I have felt so alone. No one I talked to could imagine what I was going through. When I did try to talk, the response that I got was “did that really happen?”. I think that may be what’s important to remember here. Creating open lines of communication is very important for everyone, including, and maybe more so for a new bride. We think that marriage brings bliss, but it can also bring adjustment issues. Girls may be too embarrassed to talk about what’s bothering them. It’s vital that we all have loved ones we can talk to, and not only will they listen, but they’ll believe us, take us seriously, and help us at the very least think it through. This may be totally irrelevant regarding the friend who was described above, but then again, maybe not.
I was once given mussar to by a rav who I went to speak to with a potential shidduch. The rav asked me why I was dressed so casual for a date. I was not wearing a Jean skirt. I dressed in nice bigdei choll: blouse, vest and a skirt. It wasn’t fancy enough for the rav. He expected shabbos clothing, even well into the shidduch process. I didn’t even realize I had done something wrong until he told me. I felt ashamed, but I remembered it.
He seems like a nice guy…
Hmmmm,
From who’s perspective? Don’t pry, but if you’re concerned keep an eye on her, and ask her periodically.Tell her about the change in her that you noticed and ask her about it. If she says she’s fine just be a good friend and be there for her. If there’s something on her mind hopefully she’ll talk.
No, no, no… That’s not what I’m saying. Sorry I didn’t explain further. I definitely think a girl should make an effort to dress nicely for a date. What that means is somewhat subjective. Some may expect a suit, others casual shabbos… Either way, she most definitely should make a supreme effort to put herself together nicely… Make-up, hair done nicely, attractive clothing. Dressing up is a sign of respect and regard for the date. Dressing down can easily be perceived as a lack of interest in pursuing the shidduch.
I just think that outfits that are SUPER dressy are inappropriate for a date (think rhinestones on clothing, diamond and pearl earrings, etc…). There’s a limit as to what one can get away with on a date, in either direction: too fancy or too casual. It sounds like this girl went too far to the too casual. However, I would not suggest refusing a shidduch for that.
A girl I went to sem with was seen at a fellow classmates chassunah by a boy who was interested in her. They were eventually set up and got married. Girls don’t just dress up for fun like barbie dolls. They’re dressing for tachlis. I’ll never forget how my Rabbi’s daughter came to my sister’s levaya with make-up on. It startled me. Yet, I understood she was in the parsha of shidduchim and therefore dressed a certain way. It’s tachlis.
Thank you Tomche. Very thorough explanation!
No one mentioned the second, maybe more primary reason girls get dressed up for weddings: it’s an opportunity to be seen. Even at separate weddings girls can be seen by boys and certainly by shadchanim and mothers of single boys. they are also being compared to other girls so they’ve really got to stand out. The girl with fine middos will be noticed only if she’s helping an old lady find a seat! Chassunah clothing for women would be totally inappropriate for a date. Most single girls I’ve seen dress in VERY dressy outfits that would be Inappropriate for any date. Mens suits are different. A girl should try to look her best for a date. Dressing less fancy for a date than at a chassunah is not a show of disrespect. If someone is the sister of the bride and she wears a gown to her sisters wedding, should she also wear the gown on a date?!? Certain modes of dress are expected at certain locations.
Jewishness…
I know how you feel.
I’m also beginning to feel less secure here than in the past. Economic downfall, a rise in natural disasters locally… I think you might be right about it being connected to the legalization of these marriages.
What should we do about it? Once a law is passed, isn’t it written in stone? To do nothing seems wrong also.