Forum Replies Created
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Posts
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Popa- Huh? Whats Hillel? Is that supposed to be some kinds of joke? I asked about hallel. Not to be confused with Hillel or Hallal
Also, Popa- where is this “here” that you speak of in which there are MO people???
Popa- I assume you said hallel at shacharis this morning.
I think Popa is the Pope. Hopefully with his new job he will be too busy to keep posting on YWN.
Popa- I rest my case.
Ferd- Your apology is accepted in advance.
Popa- How would you know how much torah the YCT rabbi and community members know if you are not there when they speak?
The Goq- did not realize that was one of the rules, sorry. Seems silly though, but I will stop horsing around.
Popa- Way to blow smoke Popa. If it will get you to answer the actual question, I will admit that I made up the statement and that I was wrong to do so (this is not really true but I am saying it so that Popa can move on and address the real issue)
I guess I am saying that if I did make up the saying I sincerely apologize and will not do it again because it is wrong. So no reason to keep focusing on that issue.
Now lets address kiddush clubs despite Popas attempt to keep attention off himself. He thought he could casually mention his kiddush club and nobody would say anything, but I think it is important to say that such things are wrong.
MDD- but those sources date back to before democracy existed. The only governments in those times were monarchies, so there was no hava amina the other way.
Fred- you are right, I should have said i know of one gadol. I wrote gedolim because i wasnt really thinking about it that much and it is also obvious to me that this is something any gadol would say is assur. And nobody has contradicted my assertion on that matter.
People are being really childish and sneaky about this. Basically everyone here knows kiddush clubs (again as I define them, which is really the only way) are wrong, and that any gadol knows its wrong, but we are just going to focus on the fact that we do not have firsthand knowledge of a gadol specifically telling us we cant do this, so we will just ignore what we already know ourselves and what everyone knows the gedolim know themselves and focus on a silly issue as to whether or not we heard it from someone else.
Popa- 1) not the topic. Kiddush clubs are more closely related to shmaltz herring than gedolim sayings. 2) I didn’t make it up.
3) I will take your refusal to answer the question as an admission that Fred is wrong and I am right about what your kiddush club is.
And finally 4) Is there anyone at all on this website that think they could find a gadol and ask him if kiddush clubs (as I define them:during shul, before mussaf) are ok and that he would say yes????
fREd & Popa- Ok, Popa would you care to clear up what exactly your kiddush club is. Fred here needs an education on these matters. When does your kiddush club take place?
Yenta- He was asked by somebody I know. I do not know the exact time and place, which is a ridiculous request for you to make. How much of what any of the gedolim say that is not in a sefer can be specifically dated?
Fred- You are wrong. “kiddush club” means leaving in the middle of davening and coming back before mussaf. A “kiddush club” in the middle of the afternoon is a not a kiddush club and I dont think there is anything wrong with that.
I really don’t think there is going to be a monarchy. Its unclear if a monarchy was ever intended for Israel in the first place, and it is clear from Navi (gasp, i read the rest of the torah other than the first five books) that all monarchies ended in disaster.
No reason the new moshiach state can’t be a democracy. Sure the sources don’t mention a democracy, but since the concept didnt exist at the time you would hardly expect it to be talked about.
I would just read all references to kings as references to government powers which could be a democracy as well.
You arent responding because you dont have a response. Thats not a choice, you just literally have nothing to say.
And it is well know that R’ Matisyahu Solomon shlita has spoken out against them, I am sure that I could find more if I asked around, but this is not the type of thing they publish on the internet.
Again, though, you hardly need a gadol to tell you not to leave shul in the middle, or daven mussaf on shabbos while drunk.
Popa- so instead of responding to my argument, you are choosing to engage in an ad hominem attack against me as an individual. Classic coffee room strategy.
If you actually had a justification for your behavior you would say it. I think its obvious who is right and who is wrong here.
And yes, I look forward to see how you find a way to respond to my post without addressing the actual argument at issue.
Popa- I know for sure that certain gedolim say that it is assur. But I don’t even need to go that far because it is obviously assur just like by michalel shabbos. Clearly you have no rebuttal to that.
Popa- its obvious, how can you leave shul in the middle to get drunk? First of all, your probably shouldn’t be davening while under the influence, second you are missing part of davening when you go out to drink, and third, even if you are only going out to drink during the drasha you are being mevatel torah and poreish min hatzibbur.
Popa- I can’t believe your shul still allows a kiddush club. The gedolim have clearly stated that kiddush clubs are assur.
Kanoi Next Door-
I said- “They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi.”
You said- “Aha. So looking good is more important than doing what’s actually right?”
No. My point is not that it is more important to look good. My point is simply to say, what did the charedim think was going to happen eventually?
They might think that learning is protecting the rest of the country (and they might even be right), but the should be smart enough to realize that the rest of the country doesn’t think that.
So they set themselves up to fail by basing their community on an argument that, by definition, is not going win over the rest of Israeli society. They should have planned ahead more and compromised since the uncompromising position was doomed to failure.
The real chutzpah is that the haredim are acting like they are surprised by the way they are being treated. Where did they think this was going? Who in the world thinks they can have an entire population of unemployed people who receive tremendous amounts of funds from the government and don’t participate in ensuring the physical safety of the country? What other possible result could there be to the system they set up other than the rest of Israel finally getting fed up and taking it all away?
The charedim have brought this all on themselves and in the process have created one of the biggest chil hashems in history. There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army. If learning is important they can learn before and after, and if they were truly interested in doing their part the army would have worked out a system where they could continue learning while they serve.
But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve. Some of them are just scared, and some of them (especially the leadership) are afraid that once their population is our in the real world they will realize that they dont need to be charedi and that their roshei yeshiva have been wrong about some things.
Its a chillul hashem because secular israeli’s see charedim as parasites. This causes them to hate the torah and orthodox jews. Charedim should have approached the secular like chabad, with warmth and understanding and tried to be mekarev them, instead they just pushed them away by being selfish and worrying only about themselves.
They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi. Who did they think they were dealing with? They finally pushed things too far and everyone else is fed up and now they will get what they have brought upon themselves.
I think it is rare for people to 100% not believe in hashem. If anything some people might have serious doubts which lead them to be less shomer mitzvos.
If its just a case of doubt its probably ok if they daven for the amud. I assume this happens all the time when people that arent so religious say kaddish and daven for the amud.
VM- are you trying to deny that sometimes people have every intention of staying frum but are nonetheless tempted by the yeitzer harah to go off the derech, or at the very least decrease the level of their frumkite?
I think it is decidedly against chazal’s ideas of temptation and self control to think that only people who are “looking to run away” are affected negatively by things.
There are lots of things that could be good “tools” but we nevertheless stay away from because of the risk that things wont work out the way we want.
On another lever, many would argue that even if you are right (and it is a function of wanting to be frum or not, but you are wrong), allowing those who want to stay frum to use the “tool” properly, gives cover to those who want to use the “tool” improperly to get away with it. Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lazeh, sometimes even those of us who can handle using certain tools have to refrain in order to make sure others dont have problems.
Ok so we all agree. I never said BTLs cant get good jobs or do well in law school, just that on the whole it is harder and there are fewer (although still more than not going to a top law school) good job opportunities.
Also, what does the “v” in v10 v20 v30 stand for?
Poppa – No reason to call names. Actually my cousin got into harvard and penn as well but he got a scholarship to columbia (did really well on his lsats) so he decided to go there. I wont say what year he is, maybe he already graduated, because I am probably giving away too much information already. Also, he heard that it is much easier to be frum at columbia in ny than it is at harvard in boston.
poppa- are you a lawyer? How can you just make statements like “any lawyer knows”. Like I said before, my cousin is at Columbia LAW SCHOOL, so I am getting the information from him.
You could just be making stuff up?
And even if most harvard students dont work at v10 firms the point is that many do, and that they represent many of the better students at harvard. BTLs are not part of that group, thats all I am saying.
i think you have to be careful not to be facebook friends with any goyim or non-yeshivish jews. once you do that you can see all their non-tznius pictures and all the goyishe parties they are attending and it is mamesh like having the yeitzer hara in your own home. but if you are only friend with erlicha yiddin it shouldnt be a problem… except that sometimes you can see your friend’s friends and then they might have goyishe or nonreligious friends so you have the same problem
I dont know that much about harvard, but i thought i read earlier in the coffee room that somebody said it was hard for the yeshiva guys to get good jobs from there. My cousin says that what is a good sign for jobs in law school is getting a job at one of the top ten firms (he said v10 but i dont really know what that means, I assume its the same thing). How many BTL guys from Harvard, Columbia, Penn etc get jobs at the top ten firms??
my cousin is a btl at colombia and he says that its hard there for the btls and all the mo guys (Modern Orthodox) look down at them because they know that they didnt really go to college. plus they think that most of the yeshivish guys in a good law school prob only got there by pulling some sort of shtick with their resume or transcript. and worst of all there are so many mo lawyers at the types of firms where columbia students interview that they all know that the btls are not serious. i am thinking of trying for the lsat but i dont want to get stuck with everyone thinking i am not really good enough