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DY – I see your objection, but there are three factors here:
1. Labeling something as avodah zarah is pretty serious, something that needs a posek or a talmid chacham. Just as we say that someone is a tinok she’nishba if they grow up without any yiddishkeit at all, so you could say the same about someone who is raised with a certain derech that most of us don’t accept, people who honestly believe that they are practicing authentic yiddishkeit.
2. Declaring certain groups “beyond the pale” has halachic consequences. We can’t eat their shchita or drink their wine. But there are also yichus problems, similar to the ones faced by some Jews from India or Ethiopia – maybe their marriages are valid but their gittin aren’t, leading to sofek mamzerus for the whole group. And these are mostly people that we couldn’t invoke the idea that sofek being a Jew cancels the sofek of being a mamzer. No matter how confused, members of these groups are still recognized as yidden. So what happens when the third generation wants to rejoin the mainstream?
3. My mother AH used to say, “You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Ridiculing people is absolutely guaranteed to make them stop listening to you at all, when if you speak a little more softly, you might have a chance of your tochacha being heard. דברי חכמים בנחת נשמעים
That said, there are groups whose shchita I do not eat and whose wine I do not drink.
Lots of good points here. (Especially about frozen pipes where I live 🙂 Whether or not you have a sprinkler system must depend on your individual circumstances, but having enough smoke alarms is a must – and also have a plan for making sure the batteries are working. Maybe include a regular test just before Shabbos (when a lot of fires occur in our community) or at least Rosh Chodesh.
And definitely have hand fire extinguishers where you can get them easily, and keep them charged. Fires move fast. I recently had a fire and discovered that my fire extinguisher had expired. BH I was able to put it out, but it was close. The house would have been gone before the fire department could get there. Fire blankets are also a good purchase. Likewise Health’s idea of a ladder for the second floor. And have fire drills, so your kids know exactly how to get out.
Important to make sure all your electrical appliances are safe, too. There was a fire in Brooklyn a few years ago where seven children (I think that was the number) were killed, and it was started by a Shabbos electric plate. (They also had no smoke alarms.)
Best of all – contact your local fire department and they will give you all the info you need. Stay safe!
DY – it’s pretty obvious that the thread is making fun of certain practices, which I also agree aren’t mainstream frum, but bringing Reb Moshe into it as part of a joke isn’t respectful.
Talking about the GRA in the inyan of the Goral HaGra is relevant if it’s done respectfully.
However, I still think it’s not right to ridicule people. I think certain groups are way off the mark in terms of some of their beliefs and minhagim, but ridiculing people isn’t a very effective form of tochacha.
Yehudayon, I stand corrected. But still, it was taken as a joke. Nevertheless, it’s a window into his mindset, and he really does have a problem with admiring dictators, even crass ones like Duterte. When I was young no Republican would be caught dead saying nice things about a Russian dictator. But in those days, red was the color of communism. Now our Republican President makes nice to Putin and conservative states are colored red on the electoral map. (Sigh.)
Competitive games don’t lead to happy groups. Someone has to lose, and they’re not happy about it. And since no one wants to lose there can be arguments, hard feelings, and generally not a good feeling to take away from the gathering. Anyway, in real life we cooperate far more than we compete, so we have more skills for the game.
There are no statistics on dating/marriage outcomes, because, as anyone who has tried to do social research in the frum community knows, few people will tell the truth, and many will simply refuse to answer. And we have no practical way of designing a study anyway. The only good data that I’ve heard about have come from rabbonim and batei din, and they don’t collect the kind of information needed.
And for anyone who’s done any research, you know that “data” is not the plural of “anecdote.” No matter how many times you hear something at the kiddush club or from your brother-in-law, it does not mean that you can assume it represents what’s happening in the whole community. There are probably many happy marriages where one or both spouses have a “problem” but they know how to handle it, in which case you’ll never hear about it. Maybe the batei din in Lakewood could come up with some way of collecting data, but in the meantime we’re flying in the dark.
This thread isn’t funny. Making derisive comments referring to Reb Moshe zatzal, even if you’re not mocking him but some other topic, isn’t kavod haTorah. It’s indicative of the kind of leitzanus that has been growing and slowly undermining our values as frume yidden. I don’t hold with the kinds of divination some people use, but showing contempt or derision for another Jew “past nisht.” We’re all b’tzelem Elokim, even those who are foolish about some things.
Compared to some of the things The Donald has said, this was pretty mild, and he said it at a humorous affair. The problem is when he tweets controversial stuff at five in the morning before telling his staff that he’s changing his policy. I’m an old fuddy-duddy who grew up with Eisenhower in the White House, and I sort of expect the President to think a little bit before announcing some major policy change.
Glad to see that there are now games that are not competitive, and don’t involve handling fake money on Shabbos. I grew up playing chess, but gradually drifted away from it because I don’t have that killer instinct to win and I hate to lose. Maybe I should look up Settlers of Catan. We also played Monopoly, which was sort of crass, but what we really played were card games, usually variations on rummy. Even the littlest ones could play, because an older kid would help them out. Board and card games can be very inclusive for the whole family or crowd if people aim to enjoy the game, not just be the one to win.
Of course I’m from the “bubbie/zeidy” generation, but when I see young people getting engaged after 5 dates I really feel afraid for them. The dating situation is artificial, but if you see someone enough times you’ll get some sort of idea about how they think and react.
No amount of “research” by the parents can make up for the young people actually observing each other over time. Many times issues are concealed or ignored, or things which are not really issues but just slightly nonconformist are magnified. And what’s a perfect match for one person may be a “no-go” for someone else. Is ten dates too much? I think it ought to be the minimum.
How many young couples have to wind up in beis din before we re-think the system?
It seems our Fearless Leader said this at the Gridiron affair, which is a dinner where the speakers are expected to make jokes. Actually, from what I see Mr. Trump isn’t enjoying himself all that much being president, although he had a great time campaigning. In fact, he’s already having 2020 campaign rallies, because he likes them. I don’t like Mr. Trump’s style and wish someone would put an editor on both his mouth and his Twitter finger, but I don’t think we need to worry about him trying to become King Donald the 1st. It was all pretty obviously a joke.
As I said, I don’t like his attitude or most of his policies, but I think in this case we should cut the guy some slack, and take it as the joke it was meant to be.
Mentsch1 – you are underestimating the willingness of US citizens to obey the law. Even people who love their AR-15s obey the law of the land. I don’t think that all these warnings about civil war are going to happen except in white nationalists’ dreams. People may post to their FB pages with declarations of mayhem to come, but most people want to live normal lives, and giving up your AR-15 in a gun buyback isn’t going to motivate people with families and jobs to go off the deep end. Texans are people too. The state is deep red, but it’s not an open-air lunatic asylum.
Remember that according to the polls most Americans support some form of gun control, especially banning assault weapons. As for handguns – license them with good background checks (including for private sales) and get the illegal ones off the streets. And check the stats – most people killed by guns are suicidal or accident victims. Street violence makes the front page, which is why you remember it. If Cruz had used the gun on himself instead of other people, he would never have gotten more than a line in the local paper.
Mentsch1 – Your first post, drawn from Wikipedia, has some good points. Those are all factors, especially the copycat issue, since a lot of mass shooters were obsessed with previous killings. However, the number of guns has gone up, and the types of guns have skewed toward the lethal assault-type. (I’ll try to get you cites on that. I’m a registered Wikipedia editor 🙂
Second post: the current official difference between assault and non-assault rifles was a political compromise, not a practical judgment. It was hammered out in the conference rooms of Congress in an attempt to get the legislation passed in spite of the gun industry. (I was following it when it happened – just after the assassination attempt on Pres. Reagan.) What we need is a ban on civilian ownership of any gun that is or could be converted to automatic or semi-automatic. Combat weapons belong in the hands of the military and the police, not well-meaning but untrained civilians. Unless you’re a white nationalist who thinks he has to defend himself against the government, a plain old rifle or shotgun is going to kill your deer or your home intruder just fine.
Avi K – some of your points are good, others maybe not.
As you note, words matter. In current usage, calling something “PC” automatically indicates that you disapprove of it, scorn it, and generally think it’s inaccurate and ridiculous. I’m curious as to why you think that phrase used by the YWN editors is so deserving of disapproval.
I’ve just read your other post, so it puzzles me that you named this thread the way you did.
Yes, we care more for our own, but that doesn’t mean we don’t care at all for others, and sometimes in the current atmosphere we have to emphasize that.
And yes, I agree that it isn’t fair to emphasize that some malefactor is frum when it has no bearing on whatever he did. However, you should realize that since we say we are the am hanivchar that other people expect us to live up to that status, so it is more “newsworthy” if a frum yid doesn’t.
Shabbat Shalom to all.
The problem is caused by many factors, but one that would have a major impact is simply reinstating the bans on assault rifles and very large magazines. I have friends from the rural South who grew up with guns, hunting and target-shooting, and they say that there is no rational reason for someone outside the military to have an AR-15, or for bump stocks and large magazines to be sold freely. If you’re a rotten-enough shot that you can’t hit a deer with a standard rifle, you shouldn’t be trusted with a gun in the first place.
And an AR-15 isn’t something you want for home defense, either, because it shoots through your average wall and would likely kill your next-door neighbor or family member in the next room. I’ve trained on and carried an M-1 and was taught the principles of using an old-fashioned Uzi, and we all drilled on gun safety and not accidentally shooting any of the people we were supposed to be protecting.
Military-type guns are not toys. Military-type rifles are for killing enemy combatants. Period. If you need to play shoot-em-up with an M-16, try a video-game like Call of Duty. Leave the military stuff to the professionals.
Here’s a real chiddush: Let’s agree that each person should ask their own rabbi/RH/posek about wearing a hat or two coverings or whatever, and return to the OP’s question. Me, I think the wide, wide brims and tall, tall crowns are silly looking. You see this immense hat and underneath it, entirely overwhelmed, this little face trying to hold up the weight of the hat. Same with the immense streimlach that are becoming popular. Better to keep to the golden mean – neither a ten-gallon hat or the latest narrow-brim fashionista model. And that way you won’t have to buy a new hat every couple of years, either 🙂
Joseph, after reading many of your comments on various threads (and especially Chabad Shlucha – and no I’m not Chabad) I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re simply a troll, and will not be responding to any further posts by you. A freilichen Purim and goodbye.
mdd1 – good for you!
We seem to have fixated on weight as THE prime health determinant. A lot of research has shown that exercise is just as important. However, we don’t give our kids – especially the boys – any chance to be fit. Pick-up basketball at recess is not going to cut it. The kids who are already fit will play, and the ones who need it the most will sit and watch. We need regular gym classes several times a week with a teacher who knows what they’re doing, with activities that are noncompetitive and where everyone participates. (This might also make a magical reduction in the number of kids diagnosed as ADHD or autism spectrum. Children and teens were not meant to sit an entire day in class 6 days a week..) The girls have it better in this respect, but they’re also at risk from extreme dieting.
As adults we know what we should be doing, even if a lifetime’s habits of inactivity are making it difficult. We could at least give our kids a healthier start.
BTW, has anyone checked out the aisles and aisles of junk and soda at their local kosher grocery? Back in the day you had to eat healthy if you ate kosher because there simply wasn’t that broad of selection. We don’t need twenty kinds of chips and thirty kinds of soda. And the cereals? You might just as well pour the sugar bowl into the kids’ breakfast bowls.
Joseph, I hate to disillusion you but this is the first time I’ve posted in the CR in maybe five years (or more). At any rate, I don’t remember you being around then. I’ve only been lurking again for the past month or so. I was surprised I was still on the user system.
And in case you’re wondering, I don’t have a TV or go to movies. I will, on occasion, take a DVD out of the library and watch it at home (e.g. “The King’s Speech” or something rad like that). I don’t go to movie theaters and don’t think that most of the movies today are suitable for anybody, much less frume yidden, not just on moral grounds but because they’re so badly done. However, if someone else wants to go to movies, it’s up to them to make the call. I’m too busy working on my own middos to judge other people.
Neville: you got the point.
Dovid, given the interests of Zionist X-tians and the number of non-Orthodox Jews looking for information, I would say – almost certainly there are non-frum readers of the CR. I would also guess that there are at least some Messianic Jews and other types of missionaries who read the posts and use them for their own purposes.
That’s also another good reason for keeping the tone of our comments within the bounds of derech eretz, avoiding lashon hara, ona’as devarim, and general lack of politeness.
Two other excellent reasons. We already know that we’re always being watched by HKB”H. And what we do and say becomes a habit – today we realize when we haven’t lived up to our standards, and tomorrow the Y”H has helped it become “business as usual” and we don’t even think first.
Joseph – I checked back on the post you mentioned, which I don’t remember writing (it was more than six years ago), and I don’t see how that post can recommend going to movies. I just said that if someone is going to go to a movie they should choose with sechel. I don’t think it’s my business to tell other people whether or not they should go to movies. That’s between the person and their rabbi/advisor. I haven’t been inside a movie theater for thirty years, but I refuse to get all righteously indignant if someone else goes.
Correction: I mistakenly thought, for some reason, that Joseph was the OP. So please realize that my post applies to Avi K.
YWN practices responsible journalism according to its own editorial policy. Here in the Coffee Room we can air our biases, knowing that those who disagree with us have free rein to post their disagreements.
There are 3 possibilities:
1. Joseph is a troll
2. Joseph is either not Jewish or has not been taught that Jews are rachamim bnei rachamim, and also does not understand that non-Jews are also creations of HKB’H.
3. Joseph does not understand that we pray for the welfare of the nation we live in, especially the US, which is a malchus shel chesed.I, for one, was happy to see that statement, since too many of us forget who we are as soon as some buzzword like “PC” crops up. Also, anti-Semites are more than happy to point out that some of us don’t regard non-Jews as quite human and are therefore enemies of the country they live in.
Yashir koach to the editors of YWN.
Droid – are you married? Have you ever been married? Perhaps your certainty is bred of not knowing how complicated real life can be. True, in real life you don’t have the option of “Game over – play again.” On the other hand, sometimes giving up is the only sensible option. Life is complicated, life can be difficult, life has no easy answers.
Maybe the bottom line here is – wait for the psychiatric evaluation. First find out if he’s sane, then worry about what to do. Given the nature of his arrest and the evidence against him, it’s highly unlikely that he will go free. Sane and convicted, or insane and committed to the hospital, he will be behind bars probably for the rest of his life, and unable to kill again. It is also likely that if he is convicted and put into the general prison population he will be murdered himself almost immediately. And as someone else remarked, how are we going to react to that?
There’s also a perfectly logical non-Kabbalistic reason not to leave cut nails lying around on the floor. I once stepped on a toenail clipping while barefoot, and it was almost like stepping on a real nail, and not a clean one, either. I felt lucky not to get a staph infection, which can happen with this sort of accident.
It so happens that a staph infection can cause a pregnant woman to ch’v miscarry. So Kabbalah or not, it just makes sense to be careful when cutting your nails.
Maybe it depends on the movie playing. If it’s something rated R (restricted) then you’ve got a problem. If it’s rated G (general) then what’s to get upset about? How dangerous is “March of the Penguins?”
Of course, you should be careful that you’re paying attention to the ratings on violence, and not just gilui arayos. Murder is also forbidden. Maybe watching violent films is how we get posters on some sites ranting about hanging Levi Aron from a lamp post after mutilating him. Not exactly speech that the Gedolim of the previous generation would have approved. What happened with Aron himself is a matter for the courts and the psychiatrists, not fantasizing about vigilante revenge.
And is it possible that you could find a security guard or a clerk and ask them to watch the child? Most stores now have security. It isn’t a perfect solution, but it’s worlds better than asking a stranger, no matter how “frum” looking. There are plenty of people wearing the “uniform” who are ganz crazy.
As for never having heard of a frum yid killing before, what’s true is that we’ve never heard of a frum yid killing a frum child before. That doesn’t mean that some predator hasn’t killed outside our community and not been caught. The world has never been a very safe place. We’ve been fortunate enough to live in a comparatively well-ordered society in the US, but it isn’t perfect, and sooner or later incidents occur. Hoever, thinking and planning ahead will keep us safer than NOT thinking and planning ahead.
“Crazy” isn’t a very exact term. If he does indeed hear voices, and is not just making it up as an excuse, then he is almost certainly schizophrenic. However, that determination has to be made by a psychiatrist who is experienced in examining people accused of serious crimes. We certainly don’t have the knowledge or experience to do it, so let’s wait for the experts.
And of course there is one Judge who knows it all, and will judge Levi Aron with emes when the time comes.
During the arraignment, his lawyer stated that Aron hears voices and has hallucinations. If this is true, he is paranoid schizophrenic. I can guarantee you that he will be examined very, very carefully. If he is really medically insane he will be locked up and possibly never freed, since his freedom would depend on whether he was improved enough to release. Very, very few psychiatrists would take the chance that he is no longer dangerous. Years ago there was a tendency to release, but a few horrendous crimes by released patients have made doctors much more careful.
The big question is: If he is really mentally ill, why isn’t he under the care of a doctor? Most schizophrenics can function normally or nearly so with proper medication. In addition, msny untreated patients try to “medicate” themselves by using illegal drugs, which only makes things worse. We need to do a better job of making sure the mentally ill in our community are treated properly.
Otherwise, we risk more tragedies.
Edited
This discussion just proves my point – we aren’t really sure how the Sanhedrin handled this sort of case on a practical basis. Instead of inflaming our already worked-up imaginations, let’s get real about this.
1) Our children are at risk, so we have to do more to protect them. How? Go read Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz’s site. If you have more suggestions, tell people about them.
2) According to many accounts, the killer is definitely “strange.” His lawyer claimed at the arraignment that he hears voices and has hallucinations. That’s pretty consistent with paranoid schizophrenia. If he is schizophrenic, why wasn’t he receiving treatment? Most cases of schizophrenia do well with drug treatment, and most people with schizophrenia aren’t dangerous even without treatment. In any case, if he’s mentally ill – by the medical definition, not talkback rant – then he should be under a doctor’s care. Why isn’t he? Is it the family feeling stigma? Can the frum community change its reactions to this type of problem so that people aren’t afraid to reach out for healp?
3) We were very enthusiastic to support a Jewish killer when the person he killed wasn’t Jewish and the crime was done somewhere else. Perhaps now we should rethink our approach to how we look at this issue.
This whole tragedy gives us many things to think about. Let’s do it seriously, and not just relieve our feelings by ranting about how much we want to kill the criminal.
One factor which has been shown in studies to help keep you fat is sleep deprivation. If you’re not getting enough sleep it will mess up your matabolism and lead to weight gain. So – figure out how to get your 8 hours of zzzz’s every night regardless of what your friends do.
Stress is another biggie. If you’ve got a lot of stress see a life coach or somebody similar to help deal with it. Don’t do counseling unless you really need it for emotional issues. Be practical about the problem rather than getting over-involved. Remember, your neshamah doesn’t have a weight – it doesn’t need it.
There’s a “kosher” way to look at a rainbow – water your lawn. Or flowers, if you haven’t got a lawn. With the sun at the right angle the spray from the hose will produce a very nice – although small – rainbow, which you can enjoy without feeling guilty.
Why all this interest in killing somebody? Are we really talking about what a beis din can do, or are we just enjoying talking about executing somebody? The Sanhedrin no longer sits in the Lishkas Hagazit, and until it does again we cannot use the death penalty. In fact, we no longer know exactly how judgment was made and how the sentence was carried out, only what the Gemara discusses, which doesn’t cover all the ground for practical application.
Enough fantasizing about this. Let’s think about something constructive – like preventing more tragedies, like maybe taking some of the stigma off mental illness so people won’t be afraid to take their family members who are seriously ill in for treatment.
Notice that the section on yefas to’ar is right next to the section on the rebellious son. The commentaries say this is deliberate. If you marry someone only for physical gratification it will wear off, and you will come to hate her. From that situation will come a son who rebels against the Torah. It was only permitted as a sop to the Yetzer Hara, and I doubt that many soldiers actually used it.
When I was very young and not yet frum I worked for a summer in a local site of a non-kosher restaurant chain. You don’t want to know what went on in the kitchen. Just thinking about it still makes me shudder. If you think the help actually keep the rules that the management sets out for things like cleanliness, putting the dishes the right way in the dishwasher, etc., I’ve got a nice bridge to sell you. The chain doesn’t pay the help well enough to make them care about doing a good job, and half the time they don’t have what they need to do it, anyway. A barrista doesn’t make bubkes, and the turnover rate is astronomical. And there’s no friendly mashgiach dropping in randomly to check up.
Buy a blender and learn to make your own frappucinos. It’s probably cheaper and a good deal safer for both your kashrus and your physical health!
Ami left of center? with Avi Shafran as editor? Ami is the 21st century reincarnation of The Jewish Observer. Remember that when the Observer folded Agudah mentioned looking into doing a publication in a different format? Well, Ami is it. It happens to be a stealth operation, possibly because they want to be able to print articles without their being “official.” Yes, their US politics aren’t very right wing as per Yated and Hamodia. They’re more center – say just right of center. Definitely not left-wing. After all, they do want readership outside the Tristate area.
And don’t pick on Mishpacha. It isn’t “left” or “right” – it’s realist. It was the first publication to speak directly to us about how we live our lives. Remember that Mishpacha was the first publication to run Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz’s columns on OTD children and chinuch, back when the Observer had to make a major production out of doing an issue on it at all. Granted, for the Observer’s crowd that was a very brave thing to do, but it was done as a daring act. Mishpacha doesn’t worry about “daring” – it just addresses the issues, like chinuch and parnassa and the practical side of the shidduch crisis. The other magazines try to copycat, but they just haven’t gotten it right yet.
Yashir koach to Mishpacha!
Yochie = Yocheved? Are some of the moderators ladies?
Well, I’m from the Middle West. I,ve lived lots of other places too, but my basic point of view is Middle Western. And I definitely can’t figure Easternes/New Yorkers out at all.
People told me that when I was in Boro Park to try smiling and saying “Good Shabbos” to people when on my Shabbos walk, and watch how agitated, almost frightened, they would be. I tried it. Nobody climbed a tree (assur on Shabbos anyway) but a few did shin up the nearest telephone pole 😉
Read that as, “…we definitely need….”
For those of us old enough to remember, Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky and Rav Moshe Feinstein also passed away within a very short time, and they were both quite elderly.
As mentioned above, when Tzadikim are taken from us it can be seen both as a kapparah and as a wake-up call. Given what some of the news in the Chareidi community has been for the last couple of years, we definitely both advocates in the Beis din shel Maalah and a very, very loud wake-up call. Evidently we aren’t paying enough attention to the shofar call on Rosh HaShanah.
July 4th is strictly a secular/nationalist holiday. It commemorates a political act – signing the Declaration of Independence from merry olde England, making possible the United States as we know it today, where we can show ourselves as frum Jews with pride and without fear.
When you look at it that way, observing July 4th in at least some way is a matter of Hakaras Hatov. If you don’t like barbecues, fly the American flag.