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DY, very good points. Though I would say that in some circles, there most definitely IS a campaign to show that the internet is evil. And even in other circles where that isn’t the campaign, we see a common human characteristic, which is shifting blame when we don’t want to face an uncomfortable truth. For example, in many of those stories you posted about people who had made bad choices and didn’t take control of their yetzer harahs, there are some lines that portray this idea:
For one of the stories, the title is “How the Internet ruined me financially”. That title is very wrong. He HIMSELF ruined himself financially, by having a lack of maturity and responsibility, and the tool he used was the Internet.
Now, here’s a problem. You said “There’s a campaign to educate (in some cases, in very forceful ways), that it’s potentially dangerous, and must be treated as such.” Now, the people who didn’t yet know that internet can be potentially dangerous probably don’t have the internet. So they are probably clueless about using the internet altogether, for good or bad. So “educating” them strongly about the dangers it contains will most definitely cause them to believe that the internet IS BAD.
If I grew up not knowing anything about guns, and then my parent told me that guns kill people, and said countless stories that show it, I will think that guns are completely evil. That is NOT proper education. Proper education is showing, yes, guns can be used for bad, but they do have a positive side as well (and in the case of guns, it is for self defense, so it’s not exactly a good analogy), and showing the benefits of using a gun properly, and showing, and understanding, the downsides of using it improperly. That is real education.
I agree that we have a yetzer harah. That is the reality. But the reality is also that we have the ability to overcome it. And yes, you are most definitely right, having siyatta dishmayah is a key component in overcoming it. But we must make our OWN efforts, and yes, having filters is an effort, but a greater effort is to try to gain the maturity and responsibility to exercise self control. THAT is real effort. That shows Hashem that we are really trying, and in turn, Hashem will help us too in overcoming the grasp of the yetzer harah. But if we don’t have the confidence to even try that, then we’ll never get anywhere. So the confidence I speak of is, I don’t think, misplaced, rather it is a goal. It may not be where we are holding now, but it where we should want to be.
About the nisayon aspect, you are right. I was very wrong in saying that it doesn’t have to be a nisayon, because it IS a nisayon. I should have said “It doesn’t have to be an insurmountable nisayon. It can be a nisayon that we are able to deal with.” I think the reason I said that it doesn’t have to be a nisayon is because that is how I have been able to live my life. I’m not sure if you are aware of my family issues, though I mentioned them on a few other threads, but suffice it to say that I went through, and continue to go through, extremely difficult situations because of my father.
And the main thing that has kept me going is realizing how the situation I was put in is really ideal for me and the best way for me to grow to my full potential. So I am using my “nisayon” in a way that shows that it really isn’t the nisayon it seems to be. Rather, it is the best thing for me. Are there difficult times? Yes. But those difficulties continue to make me a better person. And I believe that is true with any nisayon. Yes, we shouldn’t run after them, but if we do encounter them, we should realize that it is an opportunity for us to grow and become more holy. And this idea is in one of your posts:
“We must recognize this uniquely personal nisayon as a golden opportunity. Perhaps more than in any other area of our Torah-based lives, the internet gives us the opportunity to display our love for Hashem and our determination to fulfill His will.
Each time a Jew holds himself back from visiting a website that he knows is not appropriate, from one wrong click, he is acting out his pure love and fear of Hashem. It is a moment to be tapped in to; a moment that calls out for reflection and prayer.
We are declaring through our actions: ‘Hashem, I am Your son! I love You and I want You to be proud of me! Help me overcome my yetzer hara, help me fulfill Your will!'”
Naysberg, you are coming from exactly the same angle as DY, and essentially saying the same thing, just using an analogy instead. You are comparing children with loaded guns, who lack the maturity to use them properly, to particular adults who lack proper responsibility to use the internet. And your analogy would work when referring to those particular adults. My point is that adults can be responsible, attain the necessary skills to make the right decisions, and be in control. And for those adults, your analogy doesn’t work at all. Whereas children generally cannot be trusted with guns, adults who are responsible, are. Children don’t generally have the maturity to use a gun. But adults do. We generally trust adults with guns, unless they’re lunatics. And adults also have the maturity to be able to use the internet properly. I am referring to mature adults in my post. And those tragic stories that DY posted are of adults who DIDN’T have that maturity and responsibility. Regarding children with the internet, OF COURSE it is unsafe to allow children unsupervised internet access, because they generally won’t be able to understand why certain things are not good for them, and how much it can affect them. There will come a time when the children grow up, and will be able to learn those things, and it is very important that they do.
SaysMe, you’re right, but it shows that I value those particular things over other attributes that other people may value most. So it shows where my priorities lie. Meaning, that I would be more interested in a girl who is sweet and caring than a girl who, say, has a lot of confidence and a great sense of humor.
And I’m with oomis, instead of spending so much time with resumes, people can just meet and see for themselves if they’re a good match.
NOMTW, wishing you success in everything! You’re almost there! Like SaysMe said, I hope your thesis and neuropsych final went well! We’re all rooting for you.
yentingyenta, I know it’s absolutely none of my business, but I think it’s unhealthy to be “hiding” info about what you are looking for from your father just because he may be disapproving. I actually think it’s unfair of him to expect you to want to marry someone that has only similar personality traits as himself. Parents must realize that what is best for their children may not be exactly what is most appealing to themselves. I wouldn’t recommend dating at all until your parents are accepting of what you want in a spouse. They don’t need to LOVE it, but at least to accept it.
And I think in one paragraph, there is enough room to write about a few of the more important characteristics you have. You don’t need to describe yourself entirely. And about what you are looking for, just a general direction, along with any particular traits, is usually enough. For example, I can honestly and openly say that I would like a girl who is sweet, positive, caring, and open minded. That’s usually enough for others to see what type of person I’d like.
“MP,
You’re talking about a very wonderful ideal – that everyone had the tools to overcome the yetzer horah, and always utilized them, without any external help. We don’t live in such a world, though.”
DY, first off, I don’t really intend on getting into another discussion about this with you, though our first one was pleasant and civil, and I thank you for that. But I just want to say a few things:
Of course we currently don’t live in a world such as the one I described. If we did, there would be no reason for any concern. But I believe that is what we should be STRIVING for. It is not unattainable. Now, you said “without any external help”. I believe, as I’ve said before, that having external help (such as filters) is a very good thing. But it’s not THE solution. It’s just a temporary patch on a problem that runs deeper. External help doesn’t take away the source of the problem. INTERNAL strength is what does.
Thank you for posting all those tragic stories about people who’ve ruined themselves, and their families, due to making bad choices on the internet. But you see, those stories are the ones that people tell over to everyone, and that gets everyone scared that they will fall to the same fate, and that having proper control and responsibility is impossible. But we don’t hear about all the people who use the internet responsibly, and that’s because there are no issues to report. All your stories scare people into believing that they are powerless, and the the INTERNET is the problem, that the internet is some vast, poisonous beast that is evil and tears us apart no matter what we do. But the real problem is not the internet, it is US. When WE make bad choices, when WE don’t have the skills, maturity, and control necessary, we fall pray to our yetzer harahs. It’s the bad choices that are the PRIMARY cause of a person’s destruction, not the tool used to make those choices. And the internet is just a means that the yetzer harah uses, it’s merely a tool, and because of it’s ease of access and opportunity to lead us into BOTH (good and bad) extremes, it has become the easiest way for our yetzer harahs to control us.
It is when people view the internet ITSELF as evil, as a sin in itself, that we have these issues. But that is a very warped perspective of what the internet is, and people get that perspective when fed all these horror stories and are forced into believing that they have no control, and never will. It’s only a nisayon if you make it out to be one. But it doesn’t have to be one. I would say though, that while a person doesn’t have the skills, confidence, and maturity to use the internet responsibly (which may be many frum people, at this point), having a filter or supervision is vital, because without the control necessary, everything you are saying is correct, and it is a nisayon, and caution is of the highest importance. But if we really want to solve this problem, we must be able to believe that we DO have the capabilities to use the internet responsibly, we CAN have the control necessary, and just that confidence alone can provide a major step in the right direction.
koachshtika, I sort of agree with you, though I’d say it a little differently: The real solution is to give each of us the confidence and tools to overcome our yetzer harah, and not let the yetzer harah control us by deceiving ourselves into believing that we are powerless over it.
These are just two personality types. One type tries to focus on the outer positiveness and ignore the lack of inner contentment, while another focuses on the negative, trying to find ways to solve it, all the while being burdened by it. There is no one correct type. Everyone is different, and each opinion must be validated.
Patri, I usually wouldn’t say this, but I feel the need to if it can save a marriage: Your second sentence can many times be the driving force for a bitter and abusive relationship.
Thank you Goq, have a great shabbos. Hope you’re doing well.
Wishing everyone a wonderful shabbos.
Mazal tov to all who have good news!
Yummy cupcake, what a lovely bracha! Amen.
Think first, thanks so much! Looking forward to your music!
SaysMe, thanks for keeping this thread so active :).
Luna, lovely poem! And such a true message that we all need to hear every so often. Thanks for posting!
kapusta, NOMTW, how are you both?
Hope everyone has a nice shabbos.
Sorry I haven’t been posting much lately, I’ve been a bit busy. Thanks, NOMTW and SaysMe. Hope finals are going well for everyone!
blabla, Luna, ICOT, I miss your poetry.
Hope everyone’s alright.
Hi everyone, hope you all had a wonderful Chag! Just wanted to quickly post to say that I had a holiday full of personal growth, both emotionally and spiritually, and that I’m doing alright thank G-d, so no one would worry about me. Hope you all are doing alright, too.
Thanks, OOM, yitayningwut!
Moskidoodle, I have some fresh veggie soup and chocolate chip cookies if you’d like 🙂
Naysberg, yes, there are many great things being taught to our children. But there are also plenty of things that we unfortunately are scared or uncomfortable teaching our children. And they are things that DO need to be taught. People may argue “No, it’s better to keep them innocent and unknowing”, and to that I respond, maybe in your communities that works (though I’d be surprised as to how effective it really is), but in my community, and I’d say most communities, the children need to know, and know from the PROPER sources, such as parents and teachers. Because if they don’t, they’ll learn about these things from the WRONG sources, and that’s where all the trouble starts.
DY, I agree with a lot that you are saying, and I think you agree with a lot that I’m saying. The things we DO disagree on are things that many different types of Jews disagree on, and people in general, and that is fine. There is no one method that works for all people. One thing that you said is bothering me though, which is this:
“That’s exactly why it’s much better not to have web access, and if access is necessary, a filter is absolutely essential.”
Why did you choose to say “A filter is absolutely essential”, and not “Proper education of how to use it responsibly is absolutely essential”? Or at least both? Do you think a filter is MORE important than proper education?
Also, I noticed you wrote in the new “Facebook woes” thread, that because of the asifa, you are helping some friends get filters. That is wonderful. But are there people who are now trying to get properly educated in how to use the internet responsibly? I would hope so. I would hope there are at least as many people doing that as there are who are now getting filters.
lakewhut, agreed.
DY, being an am kadosh and needing to remain pure are wonderful things, but they won’t necessarily prevent someone from viewing something undesirable. And I agree, as I’ve said, that having filters is a good idea.
I don’t object to the focus on filters itself, I object to focusing on filters WITHOUT focusing on, with at least as much energy, proper education. So, if there really is a plan of action in the frum world to provide proper education about what is wrong and WHY it is wrong, and how to use the internet responsibly, BESIDES having a filter, then I have no issues with that. I fully support that. I’m just waiting to see that happen.
Can a patronus really be food? I have no certain proof, but it seems that a patronus must be some kind of living creature. I know, I’m taking this too seriously ^_^
DY, first, let me just say I very much appreciate that our discussion is polite and civil. Thank you.
Regarding the “serious inconsistencies”:
“Moving out, while indicating that the thieves won, does not in any way mean that the yetzer horah won.”
I should not have used the word “won”. I should have said “in control”. And yes, avoiding a nisayon is a good thing when possible, as long as it isn’t a constant problem. But there comes a point where it is far better to turn around and deal with the nisayon properly than to keep running from it.
“Building a fence, we agree, is not ideal, but can be helpful.”
Yes. Which means that having a filter, without proper the education to defend yourself with when you find yourself in a situation without a filter, is not ideal.
“Learning to defend yourself is great, but you somehow forgot to mention that the thieves may win, and you’ll be dead.”
Of course, which is why the second protection of having a fence can help with that problem. So having both is best. But regarding having one or the other, it’s better to know self defense than to just have a fence. Also, I think many people are under the impression that it’s like a 50/50 chance if you or the thieves will win. But that isn’t the reality in regard to being properly educated about what is wrong with certain things on the internet. Someone who IS properly educated in regard to those things, and is responsible, will win almost all of the time. I say almost, because saying “always” is false. Which is why a fence (filter) will make your chances even better.
I agree that merely self control will not protect you 100 percent of the time, since periodic falls can, and will, happen. I am just against the massive focus on having filters, without focusing on how important self control is, and how becoming educated in WHY things are wrong is far better than having a filter without that knowledge.
Oh, my mistake, yummy! Happy birthday! 🙂
DY, regardless whether it is “dangerous” or not, it is improper for people to reply to him in the manner that they did.
Now, for all of you who are saying that self control either doesn’t work, or isn’t the right way of doing things:
I think that anyone who says self control doesn’t work was either brainwashed (or frightened) into thinking that, or, doesn’t have the self control himself, and therefore thinks that no one does. But the truth is, it is definitely possible to have self control in this. The way to go about doing that is by understanding WHY seeing certain things or reading certain things isn’t good for us. There are books on this. I’ve read many of them. Simply saying “Well, it’s a huge aveira and you’ll go to Hell” won’t work for the vast majority of people. There are very good reasons WHY these things are not good for us. If we can understand the reasons, we can easily have the self control to not see or read these things.
I think this can all be compared to the following: Suppose you live in a forest, and there happen to be lots of thieves around. You can do a few things now: Either move out of the forest, build a fence around your house, or learn how to defend yourself against thieves.
Now, moving out it clearly not the best way of dealing with this. It means the thieves won. And you’ll keep having to move around, because there are thieves everywhere. Not ideal, then.
Building a fence is better, since it lets you continue to live there. But then again, you are completely relying on the fence. If the thieves break through, or the fence falls, or you happen to be in an area without your fence, that’s it. You’re finished.
Or, you do the third thing, and learn how to defend yourself against thieves. Then, no matter where you are, no matter what, you’ll be able to make sure that the thieves can never harm you or steal.
Out of the three, it’s clear that the third option is best. But of course, there may be times when you are weak, or tired, and defending yourself against thieves may be difficult for you. So then, building a fence can help.
The first option, moving out, is banning the internet entirely. Clearly, that isn’t practical.
The second option, only building a fence, is having a filter. That is good, but you are relying on something else to protect you, and when it isn’t there, you’re done.
The third option, learning how to defend ourselves, is educating ourselves as to WHY certain things are detrimental to us, and being in control ourselves, without depending on other things to protect us.
If there are times when our self control IS weak, for whatever reason, then it’s good to have that extra protection of a fence, or filter. But a fence without the self defense is NOT ideal.
I think the main reason why people don’t think of it this way is because they think it’s impossible to have that self control. Well, guess what: With PROPER education, and understanding why certain things are not good, it is not difficult to have that self control. And as I said earlier, I think people who don’t believe this were either brainwashed into it, or just don’t have that self control themselves, and therefore assume no one does.
Agreed, oomis. I actually wrote up a two page essay regarding this concept, though I didn’t post it in the CR, partly because I don’t think it would have any effect on anyone (after all, who am I?), and partly because I’m not interested in having people yell at me for “going against the Gedolim”.
Happy birthday, OOM!
yummy cupcake, that’s so funny.. I just checked my profile and mine is also tomorrow!
Gotcha, SaysMe.
Hope all you guys are doing alright!
How sad that people opposed to David’s post, which contained very sensible and non-threatening ideas, even if they aren’t to everyone’s liking, feel the need to reply so venomously.
SaysMe, thanks! You sing also? That’s awesome! I love harmonizing when singing with other people, I always try to come up with new and interesting harmonies, sometimes they work and sometimes they don’t, but that makes it fun!
NOMTW, thanks, hope all goes well! Looking forward to more posts from you after finals!
Well, I think as far as lighting goes, the Bais Hamikdash won’t need lighting because it will have the intrinsic light of the shechina, which will light it up from within.
But in terms of general technology, I very much believe that it will all be used. I actually think that the primary purpose of all advancements in technology are for the times of Mashiach, and we will be able to use everything we have properly.
Luna, beautiful poem! Such a place seems to be only accessible in dreams, but if people can really focus on these things, we can make it a reality. For the time being though, we have to make the most of the world we live in.
SaysMe, thanks so much! Glad you liked it! Yep, I’m singing both the regular and harmony, though I’m aware I’m a bit off at times. But overall, I think it’s alright.
Hope everyone’s doing alright.
Hey everyone, I finished the song! I just posted it on my Soundcloud page, if you’d like to listen to it. It’s a thank you to all of you here in this thread.
Here’s the lyrics again:
I never tire of being here
Never suppressed by all my childish fears
And though we come and leave
I wish that we would never leave
And our presence lingers here, and it’ll never leave us alone
Some wounds won’t seem to heal
Some pain is much too real
There’s just too much that time cannot erase
When you’d cry, I’d wipe away all of your tears
When I’d scream, you’d fight away all of my fears
A softspoken word echoes in my ears
And it’ll never leave..leave me
Your words all captivate me by their resonating light
Unbinding me from the life I left behind
My words attempt to rid you of your haunted dreams
They help me find a new sanity in me
Some wounds won’t seem to heal
Some pain is much too real
There’s just too much that time cannot erase
When you’d cry, I’d wipe away all of your tears
When I’d scream, you’d fight away all of my fears
A softspoken word echoes in my ears
And it’ll never leave..leave me
We try so hard to change our pain into song
And though I may be alone, you’re all with me all along
Luna, wow! Very insightful and intriguing piece of poetry! I really love how every chess piece relates to a specific personality. I think I’m usually a knight, although many times I feel like a pawn. This really got me thinking! Thanks for posting.
Hodu la’shem ki tov, ki l’olam chasdo. Thanks for posting, Feif.
Luna, I’m so sorry that there’s someone who makes you feel that way. Just know that we all here see you as someone extremely special, incredibly talented, and deserving of praise, respect, and love. I know we may not mean as much to you as the people you know in real life, and I hope that those people can see you in the way that we do, very soon. Hope things get better.
ICOT, great poem! Though I don’t like cheesecake (I know, I’m not Jewish), it’s still a clever and cute poem. Thanks for posting!
Hope you all had a nice shabbos and have a wonderful week. I just about finished recording my song! Hope to have it up soon.
I don’t think it is a stretch to say that many guys care more about a girl’s character than her appearance. I would want to date a girl who is sweet even though she is not so attractive, but I would not want to date a girl who is not sweet even though she is very attractive. This isn’t high school where you’re just trying to get the cutest girl. This is marriage.
No problem Goq, have a wonderful shabbos.
kapusta, ok. Thanks for agreeing. Hope you’re doing alright.
Think first +1, and amen to your bracha for Syag. Hope things are going well for you.
Luna, puppy, SaysMe, NOMTW, blabla, PE, ICOT, Rhyme Time, MusicMan, (sorry if I missed someone) hope everything is going well for all of you.
Have a lovely shabbos.
Thanks, SaysMe. It hurts me so, so much when people are so busy judging others that they forget that everyone is a tzelem elokim.
Thanks, SaysMe. Hope things are going alright for you!
I just want to say something that’s been bothering me, and I thought I’d say it here because if I’d say it in other threads, people would just ignore me. I understand that there are rare circumstances when it would be permissible to talk badly about certain people, even Jews, who aren’t following the ways of G-d. But I think that doing so can only be done by people who are on a very high level, who absolutely know that these people are indeed evil, and only at a time when it is completely certain that nothing negative will result from it. Like during the times of the beis hamikdash, by the greatest tzaddikim. But for regular chumps, in an online forum in the 21st century? NO. There is nothing good about it, and it only comes from, and leads to, arrogance, rudeness, and self- centeredness, and all it’ll cause is greater division among the Jewish nation. And for those that’ll say, “But I know that such and such is evil, so it’s definitely permissible”, if you are so concerned about doing “the right thing”, how about go outside and greet someone warmly, or compliment your spouse on dinner tonight. Use your mouth for pleasant words, not mockery.
SaysMe, thanks so much. I’m doing alright, thank G-d. Semester is almost over!
blabla, wow, amazing poem, and amazing imagery! And I must say that you are anything but a failure. Accomplishment in life isn’t about passing or failing, it is about growth and persevering through challenges, and you are truly an example of both of those things. And there’s no doubt that you will have passed with flying colors. Glad to see you back here, I missed you.
Syag, thanks so much. Hope you are doing alright today.
So I’m almost done recording the song that I made for all of you here in the poetry thread. When it’s complete, I’ll post it on my soundcloud page so you can listen. Hope everyone’s week is going well.
kapusta, I’m sorry. You don’t have to, but if you’d like to share what’s bothering you, I’d love to help in any way I can. Hope things get better, I’m thinking of you.
Syag, your strength and positive perspective is truly staggering. May your sister’s soul be raised to the highest level of heaven, and keep making her proud. I can’t truly feel what you must be feeling at this moment, but please know that I am sharing your loss and pain with you, and that you are never alone. And Zeeskite’s post is beautifully written.
Luna, beautiful poem. You are doing the best thing, when in doubt about something, or in which direction your heart should lead you, asking G-d for guidance is always helpful, and can also strengthen your relationship with Him. Wishing upon you much clarity and guidance.
Logician, yep. I wouldn’t really like to turn this thread into one of our slightly off-topic discussions, though they are definitely enjoyable. But I’ll just say this:
I very much agree that having a non-realistic over-estimation of our abilities isn’t practical. But at the same time, it is a fact that a positive attitude is many times all that it takes to get through a nisayon, and is, at other times, the “x-factor”. So, for a person to lack the confidence to get through a nisayon, which, as you’ve said, can cause enough negativity that one is unable to even admit it, that itself can, and usually does, cause one to falter and stumble. So being too “realistic” can even BE the cause of not getting through a nisayon. Bottom line: I say it’s better to always have the confidence to make it through.
Hi kapusta! Hope things are going alright.
Think first, very nice line! I like how you interpret hope to be a beautiful picture that can become a reality if we truly believe in it. It all comes down to what we choose to focus on.
I think learning how to properly deal with an issue is usually better than avoiding an issue.
Think first, thanks, things are going alright, thank G-d. I’m glad that you’ve been busy with work, and thank you so much for taking the time to post here. And amen!
SaysMe, thanks for explaining! I got it now :). What you said definitely makes sense, and that is a good analogy.
Hope everyone’s doing alright.