MichaelC

Tzippora was being hurt by people (midrash) Moshe saved her.

listen to sam2 get married without a Shadchan

Moderator’s please close this thread.

and no i diddn’t ‘copy pasted this from some sick web site’ a Chassidishe Rabbi told me all this on Friday, and I agree with him

Ok so look at Tanach, many cases it does not say ‘explicitly’ a Shadchan was used, this is because it is ‘obivious’ one was used, therefore the text had no need to mention it . So if you like ‘rikki’ would read my ‘history of the Shadchan’ post more carefully and ‘not’ accuse me of ‘twisting’ Halacha, then maybe you would not stigmatize me (copying popas bar abba assumption) to say I have a ‘agenda'(which you you and Health mentioned at least 10 times).

The point i was making that even in the extreme cases where it seems no shadchan was used, there is a proof that one was used, or in Dovid Hamelech’s case (Batsheva was destined to him since the Six Day’s of Creation), or Yaakov’s case as he was extremely old, even in those cases (although not said explicitly, see above), a Shadchan was probably used.

Why are you and Health constantly fighting me on this, it’s as if you and Health have a ‘agenda’.

Ok I gotta go-Good Shabbos

good shabbos -95

you don’t get it

Health and Sam2 why don’t you ask one of the Gedolim (those who have a eidetic memory) and learn all day and our over 70. Are you scared???

Hey, just because I let you post inaccurate halacha, does not mean I will let you say that. -95

Sam2 all your refutations I can refute.

To Popa Bar Abba my Rav said I should not speak to my sister’s hairdresser.

I just spoke to a Rabbi, I will quote you some things he said.

To oomis1105, Yaakov was 84, he dated without a Shadchan, Yitzchok was 40, derive from here that even a 40 year old needs a Shadchan.

To Cherrybim: Throughout Tanach, we find people never dated without a Shadchan. Moshe Rabbeinu used Yisro as his Shadchan, Dovid Hamelech used a Shliach (messenger) with Bat Sheva, all the people who met women in Tanach used a Shadchan.

To everyone: It says in Taanis ??? ???? ????

?? ??? ????

????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???????

???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???

?????

??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????

?? ??? ???? ??

There were were no happier days for Yisroel then Tubi’Av and Yom Kippur, the daughters of Yerushalayim would go out in white dresses and would dance in the vineyards and they would say ‘young man raise your eyes, ‘see what you choose for yourself’.

The last phrase ‘see what you choose for yourself’ was said by a Shadchan. The Talmud in Kiddushin says a Am Haaeretz should go out with the Talmud Chochom when he goes on his date to see the girl for the Torah Scholar, as it is not proper for the Torah Scholar to look at the woman even when he is dating her. So either the Am Haarerz was the Shadchan of the Torah Scholar, or/and this means you cannot look at a woman on a date, although Rabbi Moshe Feinstein derives from this Gemara that a (non chassid) can look at a woman on a date.

We see many times in the Talmud, Shadchainim were used, for example if I remember correctly ‘Mar Ravina made a match for his son with the daughter of Rava.

The word Shadchan is used in the Gemara many times ‘leshadech bnos’ and in Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Misphat ??? ????? ????? ????? ?’ ?

Ramah mentions a Shadchan mentioned from Talmud Bava Metzia and brought down by the Rishonim like Moderchai and Rosh .

It also mentions Shadchan in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim, ????? ??? ?? ?’ ?. The Beis Yosef brings it down from Talmud Shabbos.

It mentions in Taamaie Minghagim, about 8 lines in Inyaie Ishus, about Shachanus fees.

If you read Biographies of the Gedolim over the centuries (all the ones I read) a Shadchan was used for them.

So all Kosher Yidden from Adom Harishon used Shadchan’s.

After World War 2 many people were single, and older (Holocaust survivors) so the Rabbanim made Heterim for marriage without Shadchanim (when media was still in black and white). However these were not the Midos Chassidic people. The ‘holier’ Yidden even in this time with these circumstances used Shadchanim.

Before World War 2, the people that did not use Shadchanim were not Kosher Yidden, the Kosher Yidden always used Shadchans.

Nowadays people who don’t use Shadchans have bad marriages (very often ending in divorce, or problems with there children). Both me and this Rabbi said many of the people we know who married without Shadchans are having these problems.

So this is why there is no mention in Halacha or Minhagim for no Shadchan’s, it is obvious!!!!! based on all the Issurim in the Gemara on talking to a woman, looking at women to derive pleasure, ect,.

In conclusion, be a Kosher Yid, use a Shadchan!!!!!!

-Sam 2, define ‘major Rov ‘

-Health your in denial.

-oomis1105, The verse states

(Devarim 26:2-3).

Rashi asks why did the verse need to

specify that you should perform this

available other than the kohen available to

generation)? Rashi explains that the verse

is teaching us that we must be satisfied

with the spiritual leaders we have in our

Kohen that is in your days. Says the Talmud (Rosh Hashona) you have to listen to the Rabbaim (Torah Scholars are compared to Kohanim) of your generation.

Apushatayid, in my country the police don’t convict people who are asking women for marriage in a online chat room (if they only ask the question once). Anyway I never asked women to marry me, I just asked them to date me (I was talking theoretically).

Cherrybim, the reason Rabbaim make this Geder nowadays is probably from the Gemara in Sanhedrin that says ‘immorality is addictive’ (not in that exact Loshon), and as there is more color images in the media, the Hargalah to the aveiro (accustoming of the sin)is greater, and therefore if people nowadays just ask women to go on a date with them, both parties are more likely to sin.

So in conclusion the Geder of using Shadchanim is said by (in my eyes) clever Rabbanim.

To Health.

I do not have a unique case, many Rabbaim are telling this to people nowadays. Maybe ‘Health’ you should ask your Rav if you should use a Shadchan or not.

I told him the exact story that occurred to me. A female (unmarried)hair dresser who came to braid my sisters hair, my mother told me to comment ‘your are doing a good job on my sister’. My mother wanted me to get friendly with her, with Daas to seduce her to marriage. I never listened to my mother ( I knew this was wrong). Now I have finally asked the Shailo I feel all my efforts were not in vain. My Rav said you should not speak to a woman like that if no Shadchan has spoken to the girl’s side (if they agree to meet you, only then can you speak to her).

Since I have had this psak, I have decided to stop going on chat rooms and private messaging women, trying to seduce them to marriage. I will continue using my Shadchanim instead.

I will be away now for 10 hours-i am afraid i will not be here to reply to any more posts.

‘apushatayid’ i am listening to Rabbi Tauber on Torah Anytime.com

Diddn’t Rabbi Falk (i think it was him) say that you can’t do this.

No apushatayid, a Shadchan is a 3rd party, that e.g. asks the girl do you want to meet this boy, she gives her information about the boy, and if the girl likes the information, she meets him.

Biblical matchmaking

The first recorded shidduch in the Torah was the match that Eliezer, the servant of the Jewish patriarch Abraham, made for his master’s son Isaac (Genesis Ch. 24). Abraham gave him specific instructions to choose a woman from Abraham’s own tribe. Eliezer traveled to his master’s homeland to fulfill Abraham’s wishes, arriving at a well. After a short prayer to God for guidance, describing how a virtuous woman might act toward a traveling stranger at the well, Rebekah appeared on the scene and did everything described in Eliezer’s prayer. Eliezer then went with Rebekah to her family and appealed them for permission to take Rebekah back with him to be Isaac’s wife. Once this permission was granted, Rebekah joined Eliezer on the road home to Isaac. Even so, Isaac gained his own impression of her before agreeing to marry her (Rashi, commentary to Genesis 24:67).

However, when Eliezer proposes to take Rebekah back to Isaac in Canaan, he is told by Rebekah’s family: “Let us ask the maiden” (i.e. Rebekah). This is taken as an instruction for Jewish parents to weigh their child’s opinion in the balance during an arranged marriage. Regardless of whether proper procedure is followed, this is not the end of the decision – it is believed by Jews that the final say belongs to God, who may have different plans (compare with the match of Jacob & Leah).

[edit]Talmudic references

The Talmud (Bavli Kiddushin 12a, first version) states that academy head Rav would give corporal punishment to a man who would marry without shidduchin, that is, [4] without prearrangement by the couple. The text gives three versions of Rav’s practice; the other two versions disagree. Some authorities rule according to the first version,[5][6] while others rule according to the other two versions.[7][8]

In Kiddushin 41a states that a man should not marry a woman he has not seen, lest he come to violate Love your neighbour as yourself.

The etymology of the words “shidduch” and “shadchan” is uncertain. The Medieval Rabbi Nissim of Gerona (commonly called Ran) traces it back to the Aramaic word for “calm” (cf. Targum to Judges 5:31), and elaborates that the main purpose of the shidduch process is for young people to “settle down” into marriage (Commentary of the Ran to Talmud, Shabbat 10a).

Footnotes:

5) Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Women, Laws of Ishut, 3:22 and Sanctity, Laws of Prohibited Relations, 21:14

6) Rabbi Yosef Karo, Shulchan Aruch, III:26:4

7) Hagahot Maimoniot on Mishneh Torah, Sanctity, ad. loc.

8) Rema on Shulchan Aruch ad. loc.

(From Wikpedia-Shadchan)

The Sephardim (who hold of the Beis Yosef), and Yemenite Jews(who hold of the Rambam),probably are more lenient and perhaps follow the view that you can marry without a Shadchan, (they follow the first version of that Talmud in Kiddushin regarding b’lo shidduchei), (for example north African Jews allow on ‘Meimuna’ for the genders to mix like on Tub bi Av), whilst Ashkenazim who follow Maimoniot and Rema, follow the second version that you have to marry with a Shadchan. This is just my theory, please correct me!

Cherrybim maybe this explains your post, (maybe)?