miamilawyer

First of all, I am not going to pretend to know the halacha, but a goy is obviously not bound by halacha. In Florida, and I suspect NY as well, a contract that says Person A will pay person B “fair market value” is not enforceable, unless it permits someone (besides a judge, for example an arbitrator) to set that value if the parties do not agree because price is a material term that cannot be left to a judge/jury to fill in. So even if the contract says that, you cannot enforce it. Perhaps the Goy can because maybe halacha recognizes such a deal, and the Jew is bound by halacha, but at least in Florida, it cannot be enforced.

So the practical answer to Joseph’s question (at least in Florida) is that even if the contract said that, and a Jew had to comply with Halacha and honor such an election by the Goy, it is unenforceable in a Fl court.

I do not know how rabbis structure these deals, but the common sense way would be similar to what is referenced above (ie a mortgage). You sell the Goy your chametz for 100,000 but he only makes monthly payments, and the first payment is due in 10 days (or 8). Upon failure to make the payment after pesach, there is a default, and the property goes back immediately to the Jew. The end. In that scenario, the jew cannot insist the Goy pay anything, as the contract provides that the sole remedy on default is a return of the property (collateral). On the other hand, the Goy has the right to pay and keep the property.

There are many real loans that are handled in this way, so to say its a mockery because the jews only remedy is the collateral is not accurate.

Also, to add another esoteric clarification, yom tov sheni is itself a derabanan, so this only applies (at least the clarification of a safek issur deoraysa) to ben hashmashot on the first day (leading into the second).

In case it wasn’t clear, my comment about modesty was an example (and frankly a euphemism). If t was not a good one, so be it. The ester example was to make a famous point. That even yeherag val Yavor stuff maybe has an exception if the entire nation is in jeopardy. Shabbos is a much easier example. After all, you can break Shabbos to save a single life, and frankly, as others have noted, you might even be able to get the violation down to a rabbinic violation.

Anti-semitism is unfortunately increasing in America. On both sides of the aisle. Israel is increasingly at risk. Those two places contain 80 percent of the worlds jews. Whatever you may think of trumps policies, the man is not stable. Nor does he like intervention in the world. Nor is he inclined to help anyone outside our borders. His original comment is that us should be neutral in the Israel Palestinian dispute. Make no mistake that Kashner changed his mind.

And as we saw, he is really obsessed with crowd size and who attended his inauguration. he would not have been happy if kushner and his daughter did not attend. And that as the most powerful man in the world, that would have affected Jewish lives through his Israel policy Is almost a certainty.

I suspect if you wanted, you could find other instances where kushner bends Jewish law. One might argue that simply makes him human. Regardless, this may very well not be one of them.

Ok, you enticed me to post with a discussion of politics, one of my favorite subjects.

@joseph, huh? My memory on these issues is certainly fading, but doesnt Rambam say that a jew can be converted by learning a few hard halachas and a few easy ones and once he is converted, even if he goes back to worshiping idols, he is still a jew? Isnt that quoted in the shulchan aruch? So if you assume that she is converted properly, what difference does it make whether she is a ger or not?

Second, isnt everyone missing the obvious? Kushner is adviser to the president of the US, whose actions affect jews in Israel and here (basically, almost all of the world’s jews). Doesnt that alone justify certain heterim? I am assuming that Queen Ester did not dress modestly. In fact, one opinion in the Talmud had her married to Mordechai.

Anyway, Kushner cares enough about the issue to leak that he got a heter. Whether he did or not, that is pretty impressive.

Does it move?

@Abba. You are responding to a comment I made in another thread. I also do not think so. I think today, even those who smoke (mostly) would admit it is not good for you. They do it for the same reason I have that extra snack at night even though I know I should not.

Can we all agree that comparing smoking to being OTD was probably not meant literally and probably was a poor choice of words?

The larger point however is valid. Obviously, smoking is not a good habit and it is certainly reasonable to say it is a strike against a person, and for some people, it may be a deal breaker, but everyone has their own deal breakers.

I also note that as with many things, times have changed, so any reference to people who grew up in the past and struggled with smoking when it was more common is not relevant (except to the point about it being like OTD, which I don’t think the poster really meant). I went to Hebrew Academy and the rabbi who served us the kosher food and his wife smoked (not while serving, but there was a stench). It bothered some then, it would be unheard of now.

And today, I think an inference can be drawn that someone who smokes is more of a rebel than in the past, when it was quite common. Of course, like anything else, there are exceptions, but it is a fair generalization if not an absolute rule.

Raw milk is legal in parts of the US. Here in Fl it is only legal in pet food, but I have had it elsewhere direct from the farm (while on a farm). I would not trust it anywhere else (and even on the farm I was nervous, but my kids wanted to try milk direct from the cow, so I successfully risked it).

As with all western issues (ie vaccination), there will always be dissenters, but for the vast majority of the public, raw milk is not safe, which is why it is illegal in all of Canada and many parts of the US.

@lesheim To the extent my post can be read as advising you not to go or giving you advice you did not ask for, I apologize. As with most things in the CR, the responses tend to veer far from the posts.

That said, I was once in my 20s also so no judgment, but if you did not know there was gambling in the Bahamas, you should (at least) google before you go to decide if you actually want to go.

The problem with the Bahamas is that the nice areas are not a bargain, and the ones that are, you have to carefully investigate their safety etc… Leaving halacha out of it, there are some spots anyone from the US (much less a female) would be wise not to go. This is true of many places, though you are generally (though of course, not always) safer in the US.

Anyway, as someone who lives 200 miles from Nassau, and does go there from time to time when I want a short vacation close by, I am not telling you not to go, but investigate before you do. If I had information on the bargain places I would tell you, but I really do not.

Alright, I have to say, I almost agree with Joseph on this one from Halachas standpoint. There really is no reason to go to the Bahamas except A) a public or hotel beach, or B) gambling.

As CT lawyer points out, there are expensive ways to do it on the private islands (ie eleuthera) to simply have a pretty beach without the public, but the original poster was asking for a bargain, and the bargains involve A or B above and somewhere in Nassau or Paradise Island.

edited

From my recollection, Halacha and the gemamra frowns on gambling either considering it stealing (though not all do), or that it is immoral anyway because the loser did not expect to lose, or its just not what a jew should be doing.

edited

Frankly, it is hard for me to see the difference between the stock market and a skilled game in the casino.

Anyway, joseph, I concede, almost all authorities are not happy with the idea of gambling, but you could apply much of what they say to the stock market or any investment.

Joseph:Ross Perot is the single-handed reason why Bill Clinton became President.

That clearly is not true. Clinton led all the polls even when perot dropped out (before re-entering). That is the bush family line, but it is not true. And even if it is, the favor was returned when son bush got elected only because of ralph nader.

As to trump, I agree that he cooked this whole thing up with Hillary. While fox news has been strategizing for 8 years how to take her down, she has had the same time to do that to the republican party. One thing is for sure, either she will win or she will bring the republicans down with her.

@Midwesterner and @sam: Ok, I change my opinion a little. See below.

In a nutshell, many places chazal says that do something for the wrong reason, it will eventually turn into the right reason, or as long as you keep connection to torah, there is hope, but they also clearly did not want reshaim learning and poisoning the well.

The baalei haTosfos tried to synthesize all these ideas with various quotes (including the one you cite) which are summarized by an article I found and quoted below

Article is written by Dr. Benzion Sorotzkin, Psyd. discussing educational rewards and cites to many of the different places that the concept of lshmo vs lo lshmo are discussed.

So despite my initial doubt that tosfos could be relevant to trolling on an anonymous internet board, (and I still note that someone who trolls an internet board could still learn lshmo), I suppose I can see the argument that no one should learn who is doing it to mess with others (tosfot) and I agree that if someone is learning to be able to troll on an internet board, I suppose that might fall within the citations.

Joseph: I love your shtick, I do, but that comment about arguing with X rabbi or Y rabbi is silly. There are many who obviously permit women driving. You should argue with them. :-).

One other nuance. The senate picks the VP, so you could have VP kaine as dems may take control of senate.

Going even further into the abyss, the dems could actually force some of their “faithless” electors to vote for say, Bernie sanders, and overtake the republican second choice meaning the house would be left with choosing from two democrats and trump. (They must choose from the top three electoral votes, so there is a maximum of three options, 2 of which will be Trump and Clinton).

Its all pretty unreal, and very unlikely to happen, but I like thinking about it.

No. It is a two person race (well, sort of). As someone who thinks Clinton is the lesser of evils, I hope they let Gary Johnson in, but it would not really be fair.

That said, there is an extremely remote chance GJ could actually be president. He is polling between 9-12 percent and Mitt Romney and others are considering endorsing him. If he gets a single state, and some say he could get a few, he could deprive either candidate of the 270 needed to win.

It really is crazy (and interesting) that each party picked their absolutely worst candidate, because normally (to the extent this would ever be normal), if no one gets 270, the president is picked by the house, who likely would pick their candidate.

But some say that if the republicans remain in control of the house, they would not pick trump if he did not get the 270, they might pick Gary Johnson. Stay tuned….

Lol. First off, as I said previously in a poor attempt at humor, if she cannot drive, she should walk to the polls.

In all seriousness, if a woman cannot be picked up, cannot drive, cannot (without R’ Moshe’s heter) be touched on public transportation, how can she leave the home?

Which perhaps is the point. But that is not really a halachic issue unless you take the chatam soffer to places he never meant to go.

From a website quoting R’ Sperber:

Brisker: For them, it’s just being a nice person, and they will jump to do chesed with goyim, toeva-people, and anyone else – even animals.

Me: The torah requires chasing the mother bird away and kindness to animals too. And there is nothing wrong with doing something to be nice. Indeed, R’ Yisroel Salanter’s mussar movement may not have taken a larger hold in the charedi community, but that is unfortunate.

And taking Rashi to his logical end, you should not return something lost EVER to a jew who has given up hope, because the torah no longer requires it. (To be clear, I do not believe Rashi said this, but if the reason is as has been attributed to him, then it would apply just the same to a jew who has given up hope)

needless, to say, others disagree.

Ok, I cannot resist. I should have said bli neder.

@iacisrmma: To answer your question, it has nothing to do with the car ride question, but it was joseph’s example, that when you say something (he chose eruv), you don’t always say “some hold.”

After initially getting cranky about the point myself, I think I actually agree with Joseph on this (stop the presses). It is an internet board. It is not always necessary to qualify a post.

That said, if someone is saying something is assur (ie internet is assur), it is probably more fair to say “some hold..”

And to answer your earlier question about what a woman drowning had to do with it, arguably (perhaps a weak one), a woman out in a dangerous storm is also in safety jeopardy, which would justify her being picked up, just as the gemara approved saving a naked drowning woman (who otherwise, you obviously could not look at much less touch).

Well, (assuming it is available through nook or ebooks, etc..) you got them at least one customer. It will probably be a month or so before I bump the thread and provide my own review, but I eventually will. I am sure you cannot wait. 🙂

@brisker. As you concede in your statement, the reform of the past (which was notably anti-torah and anti Israel) is dead. This should be celebrated.

The current movement has quite a nuanced view, which can be summarized (very loosely) as follows: kol hakavod if you keep torah, and you should keep the most you can, but its your personal interpretation, you are not bound by the past mesorah, and we interpret around the passages we find problematic.

I am not defending this view, its way outside even my pale, but it is not the view that was fought against so vigorously. No doubt it is not orthodoxy by any means, but it is not the anti-orthodoxy of the past. It has completely changed. It is like when coke changed its formula, you may not like either, but they are different. I also don’t think most know that nuance, so I wanted to clarify. (Heck, I suspect most reform jews don’t even know what the platform is).

I also (but more importantly the entire chabad movement and others) also think your statement is outrageous that it is meaningless for a reform jew to perform a mitzvah. Its this all or nothing that has pushed people away. I know there are sources for it. There are also sources for the value of someone performing even one mitzvah.

And they don’t believe that torah changes, what they believe is that similar to how liberals interpret the US constitution, the meaning changes over time, which is what makes it a timeless document. Again, this is much better than the view of the original reform, and is a step in the right direction.

Anyway, we are to some degree arguing nuance, but the larger point is that the absolute world view you have certainly is not productive to kiruv and that there are many middle ground positions between the two extreme positions (reform is correct) and your position that when they do mitzvoth, it is worthless.

Also, they do not encourage intermarriage. That is just not correct. They accept it bedieved. And in any case, I don’t think its helpful or correct to hold that their doing of mitvos because of a torah they respect is worthless.

Brisker: Tznius is not the sort of thing you want to find kulos in – it is the defining characteristic of klal yisroel

and Brisker: Many people on this forum would approve of outright socialization with women; something that actually is assur..Many people from the previous generation grew up in houses where their parents met at mixed dances at Young Israel shuls….

Me: Is there an inherent contradiction saying that something the prior generation was not so machmir on is “the defining characteristic of klal yisroel”?

@joseph. Lol. They should then walk to the polls.

Also, if they cannot get rides, and they cannot drive, how are they supposed to do anything while their husband is learning all day in kolel?

DY: ML, true. 🙁 I should have said they perform certain marriages which used to not be recognized

Me: I only realized what you meant after I posted, and as you note, today, even those marriages are recognized everywhere in the US

@DY What? Perhaps not in the state of Israel, but if by “state” you mean the US, they are valid everywhere.

The funny thing is that I am often asked by my reform friends what Orthodox rabbis do as everyone in an orthodox temple knows how to daven etc…

Everyone has their own perspective.

The standard at my MO high school to be considered frum was Shabbos, Kashrus and Taharat hamishpacha. Now obviously, Shabbos and Kashrus have wide variances in observance, but basically, if your intent was to observe, you were considered in.

Conservative is basically its own halachic movement that uses halacha as a guide, and claims to adhere to it, but they accept every lenience and make their own if they feel like it (driving to shul on Shabbos ok).

The chatam soffers reform is NOT the reform of today. The reform of today believes that halacha is valuable, and you should do as much of it as you can, but its an individual choice. This is much different than the views of the past that many of the laws were ridiculous, etc… Todays reform recognizes the value of all halacha, they just “pasken” that its not mandatory (but it is still aspirational) and they also change things to be egalitarian.