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sammy: Welcome to the coffee room!
The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families – which is a Mitzvah in itself – but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.
That’s why I always felt that if a Jewish woman or wife works, the last place she should chas vshalom work is in a goyishe worlplace. V’Hamayvin Yovin.
The Israeli government legally prevents many frum folks from getting jobs.
Frum folks in the Holy Land are subject to the same tax laws as anyone else. They pay the same rates, but don’t receive many of the benefits. Many they are denied (as above) and many they refuse to accept (i.e. many frum schools that refuseto accept government funds they are entitled to by law.) So there is no reason they should benefit any less from the hospital.
And the point about Gaza was the Israeli government is already down to destroying religious zionists!
In that case, B’H Section 8 and Welfare is not in public view.
hss: They can tell from the wrinkles anyways. And besides, you already sit in the back.
Chazal and the Seforim have always discouraged divorce. Too many unnecessary divorces take place. The stigmitization is prior to divorce, not post-fact.
AZ:
I completely disagree with you. The best comparison is (say) 26 year old boys to 26 year old girls. Who cares “how long” they’ve been dating. They are both the same age NOW.
This is one of the places you are going wrong.
Ai-ai-ai (sometimes spelled “ai-yi-yi”) – an exclamation of strong emotion
Bagel – a hard ring-shaped bread roll
Blintz – a sweet cheese-filled crepe (from Yiddish blintse)
Bubkes (also spelled “bupkis”) – nothing, as in He isn’t worth bubkes (from Yiddish bobkes ‘little beans’)
Chutzpah – audacity, effrontery (from Yiddish khutspe)
Genug – enough
Gonef – thief (from Yiddish ganef, from Hebrew ganav)
Klutz – clumsy person (perhaps from Yiddish klots ‘wooden beam’)
Kosher – conforming to Jewish dietary laws. Slang: appropriate, legitimate.
Kvell – beam/ be proud
Kvetch – complain (from Yiddish kvetshn ‘press, squeeze’)
Lox – smoked salmon (from Yiddish laks ‘salmon’)
Macher – big shot, important person (e.g. within an organization)
Maven – expert (from Yiddish meyvn, from Hebrew mevin ‘one who understands’)
Mazel – luck
Mazel tov! – congratulations! (literally, ‘good luck’, from Hebrew)
Megillah – a long, document or discourse (from Yiddish megile, from Hebrew megillah ‘scroll’)
Mensch – an upright man; a decent human being (from Yiddish mentsh ‘person’)
Meshuga – crazy
Mishegoss – insane situation, irrationality (from Yiddish meshugas, from meshuge ‘crazy’)
Mishmosh – hodgepodge (from Yiddish mishmash)
Mishpucha – family (from Yiddish mishpokhe)
Nachas – pride (usage: I have nachas from you)
Nosh – snack (from Yiddish nashn)
Nudnik – pest, “pain in the neck”
Oy vey – Oh no! (literally, ‘Oh, pain!’)
Oy gevalt – Oh no! (from Yiddish gvald ’emergency’)
Plotz – to burst, as from strong emotion: “I was so angry, I thought I’d plotz!” (from Yiddish platsn ‘to crack’)
Shlemiel – an inept, clumsy person
Shlemazl – unlucky person (from Yiddish shlimazl, from German schlimm ‘bad’ and Yiddish mazl ‘luck’). The difference between a shlemiel and a schlemazl is described through the aphorism, “A shlemiel is somebody who often spills his soup; a shlemazl is the person the soup lands on.”
Shlep – to drag (an object)
Shmeer – to spread, e.g. the cream cheese on your bagel
Shnoz – nose (possibly from Yiddish shnoits ‘snout’)
Shtick – comic theme (from Yiddish shtik ‘piece, whims’)
Shpiel – a lengthy talk (from Yiddish shpil ‘play’)
Shtum – quiet (from Yiddish shtum ‘mute’)
Tsuris – troubles (from Yiddish tsores)
tsharer,
You missed the point.
My point was that a frum couple who went to the chuppa without a civil marriage are certainly doing no worse than a secular couple living together with children, that never bothered to get married.
BTW My mesader, a Godol Yisroel (who sits on the Moetzes) never asked me if I got a civil marriage. (I did, as it happened to be.) It is mostly a non-issue to a “real” mesader, including the Gedolim.
Divorce SHOULD be stigmatized, as it rightly is in the frum (litvish, chasidish, sefardic) communities.) Otherwise it would be more prevalent, and as several (Billet, Jothar) commented divorce already is TOO prevalent — couples unfortunately already get divorced TOO quickly. We need to encourage couples to stay together, not get divorced.
There is very good reason that we stigmatize divorce.
AZ: How do the schools get accurate numbers for graduates?
What are the equivalent statistics for boys schools?
dok36, You have raised the ire of the libs! (I already see sammy writing a 10 stanza poem denouncing you… it starts with dok is a dope, for whom there is no hope. Chill sammy, its only a joke.)
pookie, what is the source of that bubbe maaisa? Reb Moshe has a psak allowing train travel, but the story as related above was never said by Reb Moshe.
anon: You’ll never find two groups that are the same in all other regards except short vs. long dating. In any event, both litvish and chasidish do short dating, and their divorce rate I would venture to say is notably lower than the outside frum community.
artchill: The blame certainly is equally shared by abusive wives.
anon,
question basically gave you the answer. The divorce rate IS notably lower by Hasidic couples (and as an aside, I would STRONGLY opine their marriages generally happier — but that is a side point), as testified by, amongst others, the famous MO marriage counselor (who I believe is also a psychiatrist) that has a regular column in the Jewish Press. I forget her name at the moment, something Dr. R…
anon for this (or anyone),
Why would marrying under the chuppa but not civilly for whatever financial benefit it entails, be any more or less fraudulent than 2 non-Jew’s living together essentially as husband and wife (ofttimes even having children), but not marrying (and enjoying same financial benefits as such)?
I see no difference.
justin2, au contraire.
“Dating too long” while may not be the only reason couples divorce, frequently it is a major cause.
Indeed the divorce rates are notably higher amongst the long daters.
ICOT, Isn’t the “strategic” in strategic incompetence indicate it is deliberate? (That also seems to be the take of the definition when googled.)
ICOT, IOW that bochur didn’t want to do it, so he purposely burnt the cholent to get out of the cholent duties.
How were you applying that here?
cherrybim,
The Elya Rabba says that the Rabanan in the time of the Gemara wore white garments on Shabbos.
The Kitzur Shlah (Siman 135) and The Mateh Moshe (Siman 414) say to wear white on Shabbos.
The Aruch Hashulchan (Siman 260:1) says that today, wearing a white shirt on Shabbos suffices.
The MaHaram Chagiz (Siman 543) says that wearing white on Shabbos is a Tikkun (rectification) for Aveiros related to Arayos.
<i>I know of at least one instance where a child had to go to public school, but I know of others where the school allowed the parents to work off the debt years after the child graduated.</i>
ICOT, How could a school EVER force a Jewish child into PS??? That is essentially writing him out of the Jewish people! And for money no less??
<i>Administrators aren’t bad people, and they are caught between parents who are truly unable to afford tuition and staff that must be paid.</i>
How much is the “incremental” cost of having an additional child? As long as the parent is covering the incremental cost of the child being in the school, does it detract from the staff being paid?
BTW can you explain what you meant by “strategic incompetence” a few posts back?
rob, your comparison is absurd. You CAN donate something you don’t have to fulfill the mitzvah of tzedaka or hachnosos kallah. i.e. You can give a poor couple a microwave even if you don’t have one – and you still fulfilled the mitzvah.
Some people, perhaps not yourself, DO like to make others happy even with things they may themselves not have or even need.
Additionally, the hachnosos kallah is to allow the kallah to fulfill her dowry requirements to her choson. Since you don’t have something doesn’t mean you should let the shidduch fall through since the kallah is unable to fulfill her dowry. This plain and simple basic Hachnosos Kallah.
hud,
Thank you for sharing that. Pay no heed to the purveyors of negativity, as you have Emes on your side!
cherrybim – I do. I’d like to send you a check.
ICOT, I don’t either understand the large discrepancy in tuition between litvish and chasidish yeshivas. Perhaps it is explained by the costs of providing English/Secular studies. Maybe the MO schools put the most money into that, the litvish less but still more than the chasidish.
What if parents are unemployed? Or the parents jobs don’t even come anywhere near paying the tuition. Are the children refused entry to the yeshiva or even thrown out of the yeshiva??
hud,
Very good. I heard that too, as well as very similar.
We need to be thankful for the charlatans, since when we need to give din v’cheshbon for all the times we DIDN’T give tzedaka to a needy person, we can answer that we were suspect as a result of the charlatans out there.
1. Anyone who meets the technical requirements to qualify for these programs, SHOULD take full advantage of it.
2. In fact, New York is literally begging people to apply for Food Stamps. They are advertising asking anyone who qualifies for it, to apply for it. They realized many people who qualified never applied.
Helping pay a dowry IS Hachnoso Kallah, whether the dowry is cash or an apartment.
“(the boys own time in EY is not always so great”
Chas V’Shalom. The Limud Torah in Eretz Hakodesh is on a higher lever than can be achieved here.
PLEASE stop putting this narishkeit and sheker in the mouths of the Roshe Yeshiva Shlita’s whom NEVER said anything of the like!
ICOT, Is over $8K per child standard in mainstream Brooklyn litvish Yeshivas and BY’s? (How much is it by Chasidish schools roughly?)
And are you talking about “list price” that, perhaps, very few parents pay in full – or most parents in fact pay $8K+?
What does a $60K/year earner (family income) with 4 or 5 children pay in these same Yeshivas?
Or at least your best guesstimate.
[Mods – I put this in the wrong thread earlier. My apologies.]
ICOT, I think your answer says it all, and is essentially the answer to the original query.
TheWolf wrote: “Three tuitions can easily add up to $25,000 a year or more”
ICOT wrote: “$25,000 may be a little on the low side for three kids in yeshivish, non-chadishe schools.”
ICOT, I assumed Wolf is talking about more modern schools with astronomical tuitions. But which yeshivish Yeshivas charge $8,000+ per child??? One of the “flagship” mainstream litvish yeshivas in Flatbush was charging (about 5 years ago) for a first child in the family enrolling in Kindergarten $3,500/year for a lower middle class couple. (They were charging $2,500/year at the time for a Kollel family.) Pre-1-A was the same price.
CKK,
1. Many Rabbonim & R”Y’s feel the Torah learning in E”Y is on a higher level.
2. Many Rabbonim & R”Y’s feel the learning BEFORE marriage has many advantages of less distraction than is possible after marriage.
CKK,
None of the Rabbonim & R”Y’s mentioned that in their letter. It is obvious that the Rabbonim & R”Y’s WANT our bachorim to learn Torah in E”Y the longer the better. The Rabbonim & R”Y’s had the opportunity to say otherwise in the letter, especially considering NASI’s personal have been pushing that option long before the letter, and yet the Rabbonim & R”Y’s specifically did NOT give that as a reason in the letter — specifically because they do not want that to happen. They value the learning as a priority.
AZ,
You keep repeating that the boys are (almost) all getting married and that the “shidduch crisis” is only by girls – and effectively there is no shidduch crisis by boys.
But this defies what you can see with your own eyes — as they’re ARE nebech MANY older single (never married) guys.
CKK,
None of the Rabbonim & R”Y’s have publicly called for taking the boys away from learning in E”Y and bringing them home earlier. Please be honest and not claim things in the name of the Rabbonim & R”Y’s that they have not said.
No matter how much “experience” you have with the other gender, you are no more prepared for marriage than anyone else. First of all, if you think about it, except for those rare cases where a couple date all through high school and then get married, any other dating experience is just experience in failed relationships. They may know more about what doesn’t work, but they sure don’t have a clue about what does. In any case, even for those rare couples – they may be more familiar with each other, but they are no more prepared to marry each other than a couple who never spoke to the opposite gender out of the realm of shidduchim. This is because marriage involves an entirely different type of relationship – dramatically different than dating, or even being engaged. No matter how long they knew each other before, spouses learn a million and one new things about each other when they get married, and they learn to communicate with and relate to each other in a totally new way. No matter what, it will be different than any other relationship they have ever had.
Is the problem most pronounced in the morning, when the PS opens? Most Yeshivos and BY’s have different dismissal times than do the PS’s.
Jothar: You don’t drive?
It’s legal. Otherwise they couldn’t do it. They have a city permit.
It is too low in Flatbush.
cherrybin, er redt vi a yid, uber shrabt vi a goy.
Chill out Sammy. The mod was kidding, not c’v accusing you of being a mechallel Shabbos.
That is what he is asking. As he said, “I don’t know what can be done about this terrible situation, but I think something needs to happen.”
smartcookie:
Where can I send the Thank You card?
So with rob, squeak, etc. agreeing it was not “known” until death came knocking, it further demonstrates the crime when Kastner refused to publish the Vrba report to Hungarian Jewry. The Vrba report had a drawing of Auschwitz as well as details of the mass exterminations of the Jews being deported there. Instead of knowing this, the Jews went unto the transport trains to Auschwitz without attempting to flee or resist — something that may have been avoided in whatever numbers had they known they are being transported to the their certain deaths.
roberlin:
Commissar of all German concentration camps Kurt Becher? GOOD TO JEWS?! Are you kidding?
Research what a monster this Nazi Kurt Becher is.
Then come back and tell me how to defend the Zionist Kasztner for helping him even AFTER the war, to let him off the hook for war crimes against Jews.
tsharer:
1. False. KNEW? Only a prophet KNEW. And are you going to back up your false contention that the letter was “likely” written after Poland was at war?
2. You changed your original bubbe maisa on that. Are you going to back up your false contention he was offered Visas for his entire Yeshiva and declined them? Or do you expect us to take this allegation on your anonymous word alone as well?
tsharer:
1. Is very relevant. Since Poland was not at war, you cannot blame one for not predicting the war in advance. (See my previous post on that.)
2. Rabbi Wasserman never was offered Visa’s for the entire Yeshiva. (Which Sammy pointed out to you, and you attempted to refute his point with that letter — which after my comment you admitted does not prove anything you falsely alleged about Rabbi Wasserman turning down Viasa for the entire Yeshiva. In fact, the letter doesn’t even say what you are now changing your story to – nowhere does it advise anyone whether to go to the U.S. or not.)
And STILL no one can offer a valid explanation why the Zionist Kasztner was still defending high ranking Nazi war criminals even AFTER the war.
tsharer:
1. That letter was written PRIOR to Poland being invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union. As much war rattling as there was, prior to Sept. 1939 no one could have KNOWN what was destined to transpire in Poland, as it was NOT at war yet. (Indeed Germany and Poland were bound by the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1934.)
2. NOWHERE in that letter does it indicate that Rabbi Wasserman’s entire Yehsiva was offered Visa’s to America as you alleged above.
Feif Un:
The Nazi Kurt Becher! You are defending the defending of the Nazi KURT BECHER!? The Nazi Commissar of all German concentration camps! Are you nuts?! I don’t see any point in furthering this “discussion” if you people will go to all lengths defending these Zionists.
cantoresq:
You are being dogmatical AND ideological in your unwillingness to look at this clearly. Eichmann himself admitted he could not have done what he did in Hungary without Kasztner invaluable contributions to his efforts! There is no denying Kasztner withheld from the Hungarian Jewish community his direct knowledge of the Auschwitz death camps where Hungarian Jewry was fated to be shipped. If everyone “knew” this as you claim, there would be no reason for Kasztner to withhold from publishing the report he received on the Auschwitz death camps.
There is no reason anyone who could, should board it. The issue was Kasztner filled it up with mostly his friends, as much as he could without raising too many flags, at the expense of sending the rest of Hungarian Jewry to Auschwitz.
“Indeed Kasztner testified on behalf of Kurt Bacher. I don’t know why he did it.”
I do. It is obvious why this despicable murderer went to court to free a Nazi war criminal. He owed the Nazi big time. You have no other explanation, since there is none.
50%.
The gender of the one child who is a girl has no bearing on the probability of the second child also being a girl.
Let’s for arguments sake say that the “Hareidi Rabbinical leaders” (however you wish to define that) made mistakes. Let’s for argument’s sake say they made wrong decisions. To the best of my knowledge, and correct me if you know otherwise, NO ONE has ever alleged they did so with malice.
But the Zionists? Take Kasztner for example. What conceivable excuse is there for him to defend a Nazi war criminal on trial AFTER the war? NONE. Nor his selling over half a million Hungarian Jews to Eichmann in return for a train of some 1800 mostly Zionists.
And the lives for trucks proposal they torpedoed so not to endanger their goals of Statehood?