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starwolf,
Regarding the Mishna in Avos, Olam Haboa can be lost G-d forbid.
AZ:
Polygamy hasn’t yet been on the radar and they haven’t addressed it yet. So it surely is not something they don’t support. What does this have to with Litvish anyways?
The Vilna Gaon, who supported polygamy, is as Litvish as Litvish comes. See my quotes above from Ma’aseh Rav Hashalem.
AZ:
At one time the Rabbonim were not endorsing the close in age proposal either. Polygamy must be discussed and proposed to the Gedolim Shlita, just as the close in age was previously.
B –
I really don’t think it productive to get into a personal tit-for-tat with you. I really have no beef with you, even though you’ve made a number of incorrect presumptions. So I apologize for any misunderstanding or hurt feelings, and will leave it at that – and be happy to converse with you on other topics if that is not objectionable to you.
What kavod?
Sorry bubbele, you may have not liked the answer, but the Gemorah was the answer. And no, I had no way of knowing you were in 90 year range.
Bemused: Sorry if you didn’t like, accept, and/or understand the answer. But an answer you most certainly did get — elucidated in 3 different ways in fact.
Hitched is slang for married.
See you on other threads! 🙂
EDITED
Dr. Pepper: This YWN link you are seeking may be useful to you: Roshei Yeshiva ~ Age-Gap ~ YWN
AZ: So you are moida the age gap solution will mostly help future singles, and even the trickle up effect won’t solve the issue for most of the already older singles. Hence the POLYGAMY proposal. Considering it was backed by the Vilna Gaon and is backed by Rav Ovadia Yosef, there is no reason to not seriously bring this issue up.
BTW, Dr. Pepper is correct that using your existing domain, NASI has you can put up a website for a cost very close to zero dollars.
(Also a couple months ago I asked about the mathematics of the age gap over here and followed up over here. Don’t know if you saw that.)
bein_hasdorim,
Another tangible benefit of reinstating polygamy insofar as the age gap crisis is concerned, is that while AZ’s close in age solution is also working towards the solution, that avenue ONLY helps future, young, singles. Whilst reinstating polygamy, in addition to helping current young singles, ALSO helps all the OLDER single girls who the future close in age marriages are too late to benefit from.
So both AZ’s idea’s and polygamy can work hand-in-hand in helping close the shidduch crisis.
just-a-guy: I never took you to be so humorless!
cherrybim, That doesn’t change my quoted position.
And to reverse your example, take for instance the Shomrei Emumim Rebbe or any of the Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avrohom Yitchok Rebbes, they the are not recognized and even denigrated by the MO world, yet they are true tzadikim and g’dolei torah, second to none.
Do you dispute that? What gives you (or if not you then other MO people) more right to do so, then the Yeshivisha/Chasidesha velt has to not agree with your characterizations and designations of the Yeshiva University Rabbis?
Just because someone is a (or even “the”) leader of YU, doesn’t bestow upon him the title of Godol. Vi shteit az the yeshivisha velt must recognize Rabbi ABC (fill in the blank) of YU as a Godol? Usually the YU Rabbis take any number of positions that the Chareidi community know as incompatible with that of a Godol. And who says that Rabbi ABC of YU is any more of a Godol than the Rosh Yeshiva of, say, Yeshivas Derech Chaim in Brooklyn (a true tzadik and godol like many other Roshei Yeshivos in Brooklyn and elsewhere)?
So the point remains that the true “leaders of Klal Yisroel” are truly recognized as such across the board. It is “just” simply works out like that through their gadlus, and always has worked out like that.
I believe the Yemenites were limited to 4 wives, while the Sephardim who practiced it were limited to two.
I think its time for you to get yourself hitched. 🙂
The Gr”a’s talmidim have successfully restored saying Bircas Cohanim everyday in E”Y. We now need to work on fulfilling the Gr”a’s second great wish.
ronrsr, What State did these 2 families live in?
The Vilna Gaon in Ma’aseh Rav Hashalem (p. 276) writes:
“If I would be successful, in accomplishing two things, I would be idle from Torah and T’fillah and go from city to city [to get them accepted]. One is to eliminate the prohibition of Rabbeinu Gershom against taking two wives for with this the G’ulah (final redemption) will become closer, and the second that they should have bircas Cohanim every day.”
The family is Yemenite, but Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita came out in support of polygamy a number of years ago as well.
BTW, I am slightly acquainted with a Frum polygamous family, and let me tell you, they are such a lovely and wonderful mishpacha.
I didn’t notice anyone asking for your permission Josh.
What are your plans for Chanukah?
To light the Menorah.
You missed the point. The Gemorah’s point is Limud Torah. If the woman’s chesed enables someone to engage in Limud Torah, then that merits Olam Haboah.
Bemused,
EDITED
Yes, the ONLY way the Gemora says to get Olam Haboah for a man OR woman is Torah. And the only method the Gemora lists – the ONLY one – is: “By sending their children off to the Bais Hamedrash, and by waiting for their husbands to come home forom the Bais Hamedrash.”
That, the Gemora says, is THE way for you to get Olam Haboah.
starwolf, Are you seriously postulating Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Amital are on the same caliber as the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Elyashiv, etc.? I can’t believe you are that deluded. Rav Kalisher wasn’t a zionist.
It is interesting to note that the true Gedolei Yisroel are recognized as such across the board.
And, yes, aside from riling up the Arabs, the zionist take much responsibility for what transpired during the holocaust, as has been documented on this very forum amongst many other places.
And the Torah scholar does more to hold up the safety of Klal Yisroel and the world, than any other person.
Jothar,
There is no logical reason most of your taainas against Chazzanus should be less applicable during RH & YK, when you are moida it is a munhug going back 1,000+ years.
Also, it was not cherrybim who made those comments about the megila.
Bemused,
You are making another error as well. Women need Torah. Without Torah, you cant get Olam Habah. And so the Gemora asks the question: Nashim b’,ai zachyan – How do women merit Olam Habah if they do not learn Torah?
The Gemora answers; Bakroei banaihu l’bei kenishta, ib’asniyei gavraihu bai rabanon – by supporting and helping their husband and children learn.
Bemused,
Please read the conversation carefully prior to hitting send. cantoresq’s query referred to a married woman who has children, and none of them ever learn any Torah.
Shulchan Aruch EH 1:10:
????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??????
Bemused: “$300 a month? That’s an awful lot of cleaning help.”
shaatra: “Mazca: $300 a month?? WHERE?? We pay $350 a WEEK because she’s new!!! Our old one we had for 2 years she got $420 a week!! My cousin has had hers for over 10 years and pays $500 a week!! $300 a month is balash!!”
Oh, the sweet irony of these two comments!
anon, Your original point was on their antagonism towards polygamy. Then you brought up their moral views. My point was that Americans antagonism towards things are not the same as what they believe moral.
In any event, larger shifts in public opinion have occurred rather quickly, whether it was interracial relations (once also considered immoral and great antagonism towards) or a whole host of other issues. My point being, polygamy is achievable from a legal standpoint and an act of the Legislature.
anon, American’s are a bad barometer of what is moral. And American’s sense of antagonism (which is what you originally referred to) does not necessarily follow mores. American’s are quite a tolerant bunch, and the Fundamentalist Mormons have been practicing polygamy since the 1800’s.
Josh, B’H the wives in our community not only don’t mind, they fully encourage our husbands to sit and learn. They’ve been trained well.
AZ: I really honestly have no ax to grind with either you or NASI. I also think that you/NASI have failed to demonstrate your case. Of course, you still have the opportunity to do so, but thus far you have been repeating your same talking points for the past 7 months in the Coffee Room. These talking points of yours have not answered many of the multitude of valid questions presented to you.
You said you only discussed it in jest (“obviously”). I suggest you discuss polygamy with the Rabbonim without the jest and only in earnestness. Make no assumptions that it is not an idea worth pursuing. Do it L’shem Shmayim.
“MM based on your understanding of the passage you quoted, can women attain a share of olam habah if neither their husbands or children ever learn any Torah?”
cantoresq, based on my understanding of the passage I quoted and on the limited description you provided of the women you refer to, I don’t see anything they’ve done to merit Olam Haboah.
anon, I disagree with you that there is currently in the general population much animosity towards it. First of all, it is not known of much by the general populace. Secondly, in the places where polygamy is practiced in America, i.e. Fundamentalist Mormons, certain Muslims, and certain African immigrants, there isn’t much hostility towards them for this reason.
Legally a common-law marriage is virtually the same under the law as a civil marriage. I was not referring to common-law marriages. My point was that there is no secular law prohibiting a man from living in the same home as two women, so long he does not civilly marry them. (Common law marriage is only possible in 11 states. And it is generally only achievable if both parties desire to consider themselves to be in a common law marriage.)
“Are *you* assuming? It either is the case, or it isn’t the case. Before you throw a solution at a problem, you need to know if there is a problem, right? If you want to talk “logical”, uh, determining if there *is* a problem would be a good start…”
Bemused,
Based upon your above remarks, you are questioning the validity of the age-gap argument presented by AZ and NASI. That is certainly your prerogative. In that case, why haven’t you vocalized your above concerns all this time AZ was presenting his case? Why did these above concerns of yours first surface with the polygamy proposal?
Obviously Jothar is a Kalte Litvak! 😉
justaguy, It wasn’t MM’s position. It is the Gemorah’s position.
Bemused,
If we assume for the moment that there are more women in the shidduch market than there are men (which is the basis of the age gap issue), would you not agree one logical method of addressing the root of the issue is to reinstate polygamy?
(Note I am not trying to say this is the only reason to reinstate polygamy. But sticking to the age gap discussion for the moment this would seemingly be addressing a root of the problem. And that is the issue I understand haifagirl is attempting to address as well.)
anon for this,
Apparently you missed the discussion earlier in the thread where haifagirl and myself suggested the laws against polygamy can be changed (as any laws can be). Additionally, it is NOT against any current law for a man to live with more than one female if he is not civilly married to more than one. In fact, if a man could be prosecuted for having a relationship with more than one, most non-Jews (due to immorality) would be subject to prosecution.
As ronrsr erlier pointed out, even real polygamy is not prosecuted as a practical matter (unless other serious laws are violated). Having more than one, where there is no secular marriage, is not even against current law. And like earlier stated, the proposal is to change the laws against polygamy.
rebetzin,
You are mistaken. I’ve heard from others, male and female, who would support polygamy. And just read haifagirl’s comments right here!
AZ,
To your knowledge has this been discussed or proposed by or with the Rabbonim yet? I didn’t think so. The “age gap” at one time was also not on the Rabbinical radar screen. Polygamy too is just a matter of time until the Gedolim discuss it and potentially come out with a Kol Koreh encouraging it.
Bemused,
Why should the “age gap” issue only be addressed by close in age marriages (which as you admitted too is a serious endeavor) when it can be addressed as well (and likely even more efficiently) with polygamy?
starwolf, I very much disagree with you attributing the reason for the demographic shift of MO/DL children becoming “Chareidi” primarily being a result of them having some Chareidi educators.
The reason’s for that shift are much more fundamental.
“After all, “pushing for polygamy” is a pretty serious endeavor, and I would like to know why we should be looking at this. Thanks.”
Just a minor point I’d like to make. Pushing for marriages within 2 years of each other, is also IMO a pretty serious endeavor. But we all have to do what we can to alleviate the crisis.
“her future husband had not yet reached the age of consent.”
Parental consent for marriage can be provided as early as age 16 in most U.S. states.
And of course getting Olam Haboh is your purpose for being on this world.
The Gemorah asks “How do women merit Olam Haboh?”
And the only method the Gemorah lists is “By sending their children off to the Bais Hamedrash, and by waiting for their husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash.”
That, the Gemorah says, is the way for you to get Olam Haboh.
ronrsr,
That sounds like a good start. Perhaps we can work with NASI, and whomever NASI used to gather signatures from the Gedolim, to get the Rabbonim involved.
Every little bit helps.
starwolf, You tried to pass off Rav Yosef as c’v a Zionist. So I called you out on that.
I don’t see what is shver. When a Jew is acting in accordance with the Torah he is a Torah Jew. When he is not, he doesn’t earn that title. Zionism is not acting in accordance with the Torah.
Jothar, You yourself said above “it sounded like Rav Kanarek ZT”L is putting the blame on Lakewood”.
As someone posted on another thread:
Women need Torah, too. Without Torah, you cant get Olam Habah. And so the Gemora asks the question: Nashim b’,ai zachyan – How do women merit Olam Habah if they do not learn Torah?
The Gemora answers; Bakroei banaihu l’bei kenishta, ib’asniyei gavraihu bai rabanon – by supporting and helping their husband and children learn.
Jothar, Why your antagonism towards chazzanus?
anonforthis,
Yours is a rather uncommon story. It is very infrequent that a wife is that much older than her husband. Whilst NY Mom’s story IS quite common, with the husband being significantly older than the wife being a relatively frequent occurrence.