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gavra:
So there is good reason referring to such an issur m’doraisa in a book written by and for frum yidden would be considered controversial.
Actually they can complain about BMG’s influence. But it is tough nuggies on them. BMG’s powerful influence in Lakewood is here to stay.
A Jew learning Torah L’shmo does more for Klal Yisroel than all the IDF.
bein_hasdorim,
The Gemora (Shabbos 152a) quotes a posuk: “Ki hu amar vayehi” – Hashem decreed, and so it was! “Rav Kahane said, this is a woman. She is just full of dirt and blood, yet everyone runs after her”. Meaning, there’s no logic behind it, Hashem said it should be that way, and it is. It’s a Gezeiras Hakasuv. This is probably why, when Chazal say the angels came down to this world demanding a chance to keep the Torah, the aveirah that defeated them was Arayos. Because even though the angels were physical then, they still retained their angelic intellects which told them philosophically that money honor and power are not worth pursuing in this world. And through their great understanding of the futility of these Tavvos they rejected them. But women don’t work that way. No matter how wise you are the Taavah is still there, so the Malachim were unable to undo their Taavah for Arayos. The only way – the one and only way – to resist women is self discipline. Period. You can’t use your THINKING to fight the Taavah here, you can only use your ACTIONS. You have to resist, discipline, and STAY AWAY. This is why restraint from Arayos is called Kedusha (holiness) as opposed to refraining from any other sin. Refraining from other sins could be holiness, but it could also be simple wisdom. It could be you’re a Sameach b’chlko. Even a non-religious guy would be happier if he was a Sameach B’chelko, so not running after money does not necessarily have to do with religion or holiness. As opposed to Arayos, where “EVERY PLACE you find restraint from Arayos, there you find holiness” (Rashi Kedoshim). Because there is only one possible reason for not doing Arayos — self-discipline, and that’s what we mean here by holiness. This is also why we find more Gedorim and Siyagim against Arayos than any other sin. This is why, even though Sefardim always rule like the Bais Yosef even when the majority of poskim are against him, when it comes to issues of Arayos, writes the Chikrei Lev (II:180b), they are permitted to be strict, even against the Bais Yosef, with support of a majority of poskim.
craisins,
Phyllis’ story was the perfect analogy to the OP. In fact, Phyllis had more to be thankful for. The Chaveirim boy came special out of his way to help her. In the OP, the boy happened to be passing by. Chaveirim volunteers are unpaid and have no “superiors”. The Hakoros HaTov primarily goes to the Chaveirim volunteer who came to help.
And Phyllis acted towards her helper as the prototypical Bas Yisroel steeped in Torah values should. We can all learn how to act from Phyllis’ story.
ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE:
I once went with my friend to the ice cream store (before i got married) and when we got back to her car she couldnt get it to start. We called Chaveirim and they sent a guy down, we showed him the car, apparently the steering wheel was locked, he got the car to start. We thanked him and he left. The next day my friend sent a check to chaveirim, mentioned the story and that was it! The guy didnt call her to say thank you, for her thank you. That would have been absurd! We didnt think of small talk with the boy while he was fixing the car either! We didnt call to thank him personally. The Hakoras Hatov was there, but in a very modest way. What is this with boys and girls that are so friendly and comfortable with opposite genders. I think it is the Yetzer harah, and he is laughing!
Phyllis –
Very well said. I think you put it best, from the comments thus far.
A few different Bikur Cholim’s to help you get started:
(718) 387-7749
(718) 438-5259
(718) 387-8523
(718) 387-3876
In NYC, of all places, you should have no trouble at all finding Bikur Cholim.
Satmar Bikur Cholim, probably the largest Bikur Cholim in the US, serves all of Manhattan hospitals I believe, but surely NYU Hospital for Joint Disease.
He may be doing that for Kiruv purposes.
Our individual perceptions of “logic” take a backseat to halacha and how our Poskim interpret it.
It is always best not to assume.
To translate Rochelle for our English speaking brethren (not zoicha to the mamme loshon): “The truth hurts.”
The 35 Jews who lived in Lakewood before Rav Ahron? 99.999% of those who moved there in the last 50 years, did so due to BMG.
EDITED
jewishandworking22 said: “(I can be wrong, it won’t be the forst or last time)…views that are not held by many people.”
It is completely irrelevant what the “views that are not held by many people.” The ONLY relevant point is halacha. See the poskim I quoted on the previous page of this thread.
Tnayim most certainly do have very serious halachic ramifications.
justaguy, The obvious difference between what azi quoted and what getzel1 wrote, is that the former is sheker while the latter is Emes. As much as you may or may not like the Emes, it doesn’t make it a “mean and arrogant attitude.”
Many “modern day” engagements include tnayim. If so, it is even a greater shaila.
azi, Read getzel’s comment carefully it would do you well. If you still say “I can’t say I disagree with their sentiments”, adios.
jewish22,
Like gavra brought, it is NOT Hachnoso Orchim to invite your neighborhood friends over.
EDITED
gavra,
So you are agreeing that a shaila must first be asked. Wolfish tried claiming it wasn’t necessary to ask a shaila. I’ve said ask a shaila and if necessary write/get a Shtar Mechilla.
“Just to add on to shaindel’s post…I know of a Rosh Yeshiva who picked out his wife after passing her in the street. No one regards him as any less of a gadol because of it.”
In that case, why the reluctance to name the “RY”? If this is proudly true, there should be no shame in stating who the “gadol” is.
balanced –
Excellent point.
The Bais Shmuel (YD 51:8) says that there is a Cheirem from the Ge’onim.
Wolfish,
You have kashas on Hagoen HaRav Shternbuch? You disagree with Hagoen HaRav Shternbuch? What do you want from me? I’m sure you are either 1) a gaon on Rav Shternbuch’s level or 2) have unquoted sources that disagree. If the latter, please quote your sources. If the former, I tip my hat to you.
I am completely floored that you find it appropriate to compare the seriousness of (C’V) breaking a shidduch to that of buying a house. Breaking a shidduch involves serious halachic consequences, as mentioned above, and requires a shaila (especially if it is not mutual) if it is allowed in the circumstance. It is NOT always permissible. Divorce is also not always permissible.
Hagaon Harav Yitzchak Silberstein Shlita related in a recent shiur a story which occurred in the times of the Chasam Sofer. One of the Gedolei Olam at the time who lived in a large city, travelled to a small town, where he was suddenly taken ill and died, As it was close to Shabbos, he was buried in the small town.
His home city felt that it was only right that the deceased Gaon be relocated bekovod in his own city.
The Chasam Sofer was consulted and set about writing a teshuva to explain the heter to do so. However, the next morning, the Chasam Sofer retracted his psak. He explained that the niftar appeared to him in a dream and begged that he remain where he is. As a young man he had broken off his engagement, leaving the meshudeches distraught and distressed. She never recovered from the pain, and in her anguish she died young and single. The Hashgocho decreed that as a kaporoh, the Gaon must be buried alongside his former meshudeches!
Rav Shternbuch says (2:622) that breaking an engagement is a very serious matter and it causes embarrassment to the other side. The Bais Shmuel (YD 51:8) says that there is a Cheirem from the Ge’onim. Some say that this only applies if this cheirem was written into a document beforehand.
The custom is that when a Shidduch goes bad, the offended side usually writes a letter of forgiveness (Shtar Mechila) to the side that initiated the break, stating that they forgive the other side wholeheartedly for the embarrassment and that they absolve them of any obligation owed to them.
However, says Rav Shternbuch, this is not so simple. The lingering effects can have devastating consequences in the future as many people unfortunately experienced. Therefore, suggest Rav Shternbuch, even after receiving the Shtar Mechila, it is best to go before three people and request that if you are chayav cheirem and deserve to be excommunicated, they should absolve the cheirem. The three people should then answer, “Mutar Lach, Mutar Lach, Mutar Lach”, you are unbound. Although this is not customary, if one side caused grief to the other side it is wise to do this. If however there was a legitimate reason to break off the engagement, then he says, this is not necessary.
WM, Breaking an engagement is a halachic matter whether one can or not. i.e. See the Chelkas Yaakov and the Chasam Sofer amongst other sources. The fact of the matter is, it is NOT always permissible, and cannot be done without a shaila.
Regarding your latter question: <i>”you really think the person must remained married to a person that they don’t want to be married to?”<i>
That too is a shaila. You cannot divorce “at will” either. Indeed the answer, halachicly, is many times you must remain married even if the grass is greener on the other side.
for italics you want to place “em” inside the arrows not “i”
ron, In Europe the barriers were steeper and meeting and matching even more regulated. Unfortunately in this American golus many gedarim have broken down.
A second problem, as slightly alluded to by Mayan Dvash, is that she is trying to date two guy simultaneously.
Even without tnoyim breaking an engagement (c’v) is a humongous deal, and a shaila must be asked FIRST.
Jothar and Bemused (and it goes without saying Rav Weinberger Shlita) are absolutely 100% correct. This insane mingling in the workplace and home between friends and colleagues is the #1 cause of divorce. Until, and unless, this underlying problem is addressed unfortunately the divorce crisis will not abate.
It most definitely IS a big deal to break an engagement. A shaila must always be asked if it is permissible, as it is not permissible by default.
If the main reason was “he was a nice guy but I realized that we just would not work” I would most certainly see red flags. What changed from the time of the engagement to the time it was broken, that she couldn’t determine beforehand?
The NY Post is especially full of pritzus. It isn’t much better in almost any other secular media. One upon a time, the WSJ and Reader’s Digest used to be clean, but even they are not 100% kosher anymore.
Arutzsheva, YNet, JPost, Haaretz, etc. are approximately 99.9% lies. The NY Times is approximately 99% lies. The Jewish Press has hashkafically inappropriate content in every issue (in fact it constitutes most of the paper.)
The Gemorah says that if a pregnant lady steps on nails after being cut, she may loose her child that she is carrying. One of the reasons given is, before Adom sinned his body was covered with a layer of nails. After he sinned the nails only remained on top of the fingers. Since a lady caused the sin of the eitz hadas that in turned caused the removal of nails fromthe body, women are punished because of it. Based on the aforementioned if one burns the nails he is considered a chassid. If the nails are buried he is considered a tzaddik, and if the nails are thrown in a place where they will be stepped on he is a wicked person. Men should also refrain from stepping on nails. Toenails should also not be thrown and they should be dealt with like fingernails. Steeping on nails of a non-Jew should no be done.
The Pri Megadim (OC 260) says: Adam HaRishon was created covered by nail like material over his skin. After the sin it was removed, remaining only on his fingers and toes. Since Woman is generally blamed for the original sin, there is therefore a danger for pregnant women to step on finger and toe nails.
Some other rules of (thumb)nails:
Not to cut on Thursday because they will sprout (presumably this means noticeably) on Shabbos.
Not to cut finger and toe nails on the same day (Mogen Avrohom 260). (Shulchon Hatahor recommends averting this problem by leaving one toenail uncut).
Only cut fingernails Erev Shabbos and Yom Tov (Ibid).
Based on the above the Mogen Avrohom recommends cutting toenails on Thursday and fingernails on Friday.
The Rema says not to cut fingernails in order. The order he gives is 42531 for the left hand and 24135 for the right. The Arizal laughed at this practice and the Maharam Miruttenberg was not particular about this. The Mogen Avrohom recommends being stringent. There are various opinions as to which hand to cut first, the Rema seems to favor the left. (See Pri Megadim and Ashel Avrohom Mibutshetsh). All this does not apply to toenails. (Chazon Ish).
Like I said, I verified your statement vis-a-vis Rav Miller. Let me know what kind of help you can use. (I still don’t necessarily agree with everything you present [i.e. the first three of the 5 steps you outlined six comments back], but agree with you overall goal.)
willi: Hmm. Your husband is from willi, so you moved there?
AZ: Okay, you called him last night and that’s what he told you. He also said that the idea of marrying very young is a very good one. I don’t know why who the backers are is only on a “need to know basis.” Usually those who give an haskama do so publicly. Can you at least confirm Rav Kamenetzky Shlita backs all of NASI’s ideas? In any event, what kind of help can you use?
yeshivahman: I’ll bet your sister and her husband now joke about it! 🙂
To tzippi: You need to ask your question carefully. There are two things at play here. 1. What the 70 R”Y suggested. and 2. Additional steps above and beyond the 70 R”Y, that NASI is pushing. So if your question is how does what the 70 R”Y wrote affect your question (if at all), the answer may be different than if you ask how what NASI is pushing affects your question (which is not necessarily a position the 70 R”Y agreed to.)
The R”Y’s letter is far more limited than NASI’s agenda.
AZ… I think it is you who has toned down the rhetoric. But be that as it may, I do like your latest song better than the old ones. 🙂
Question 1. If I understand you correctly, you are maskim that Rav Miller’s position, as quoted verbatim from his Sefer on the previous page of this thread, works hand-in-hand with what the 70 R”Y signed.
Now you indicate that NASI has objectives separate and above what the 70 R”Y signed to. You say that this “NASI agenda”, which is NOT what the 70 R”Y signed to, are coming from the separate Rabbi’s on the NASI advisory committee. Fair enough. What isn’t acceptable is that NASI is keeping these Rabbi’s anonymous. Question 2. Who are the Rabbi’s on NASI’s advisory committee? Question 3. What additional agenda are they advising NASI to pursue, above and beyond what the 70 R”Y signed to?
I did read the letter again. The letter is limited to the 70 R”Y asking “to give preference to shidduchim in which the ages are close to each other” and “to give preference to a girl who is age twenty and above.”
There is no contradiction between Rav Miller’s strong suggestion that girls marry straight out of school (if not before), and the R”Y’s letter. Rav Miller, like other Gedolim, suggest girls marry young. This should be followed.
The R”Y want to help older unmarried girls. So they suggest close in age marriages. And they suggest shadchanim provide more help for older girls. Neither suggestion conflicts or changes what Rav Miller and other Gedolim have long advocated.
The only conflict, perhaps, is a few other folks (sometimes falsely wrapping their ideas in what the R”Y said) saying that 17 or 18 year old girls should not get married at that age, or that no one should help 17 or 18 year old girls get married. The R”Y not only never advocated as such in their letter, it goes against the aforementioned words of our Gedolim that has long been advocated.
to personally give us his first hand account
It’s beferish in Rav Miller’s Sefer. Please stop being mevaze him with.
And it is correct that there is no inherent contradiction between Rav Miller’s beferish position on girls getting married straight out of Beis Yaakov (if not earlier) and the letter to R”Y signed. You unfortunately have a bad habit of keeping to put words in the R”Y mouths, which they never signed to in the letter.
You still have NEVER addressed why the age gap wasn’t a problem 100 or 200 or 300 years ago. My point is they had population growth + age gap (even larger than today) and never addressed this issue as a problem causing people to remain unmarried. Considering they had the same factors as today, to an even greater extent, and not the problem we have today — it would seem reasonable to observe that perhaps the alleged cause is perhaps not the root cause.
Rav Miller is quoted as saying that girls should marry soon after graduation. At what age did he say boys should marry?
anon for this:
If I could postulate based upon the context of Rav Miller – namely the reason he gives for girls to marry soon after (or before) graduation [to quote Rav Miller “Every day after she leaves the Beth Jacob marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day.”] – seemingly the boys should marry too soon after (or before) they leave Yeshiva. Obviously the boys are in Yeshiva a number of years longer than girls are in Beis Yaakov, so they would be marrying later.
AZ – I see a few of the questions threw you off, as they didn’t fit into any of the talking points you are fond of repeating.
Rav Miller said a Beis Yaakov girl should be wed at about age 17 or 18 (“soon after or before graduation.”) Indeed you are correct that the R”Y’s letter does not disagree with Rav Miller’s position.
Please do faithfully ask Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen and report back to us. How long do you think this will take for you to report back what he says?
I see you have no answer for how we managed for 1,000 years. Why do you say “There is NO reason to think this was around at the time of the rishonim and achronim.”?
Throughout our history the age gap between couples has in fact been larger than currently. Indeed before the war it was not very uncommon for a significantly older male to marry a very young female.
As a completely aside point you made (which is completely wrong), what “incorrect advice” Gedolei Yisroel “asked mechila” for? Which Godol (name at least one) “asked mechila”?
AZ – Follow up questions:
1. There is a difference of opinion on this matter amongst Gedolim, as evidenced from the above.
2. tzippi called you on the carpet for being dismissive of Rav Miller. You were asked, who are you to insinuate Rav Miller would change his position.
3. Are you prohibiting the asking of questions based on the holy words of our Gedolim?
4. Are you saying that over the past 1,000 years the age gap issue has caused many girls over those thousand years to not get married? (Even if you don’t “know” since you didn’t live for 1,000 years, your answer would seemingly need to be affirmative to explain the lack of action on the age gap issue for the past 1,000 years.)
5. What is another example of something as obvious and simple as the age gap issue, that 1,000 years of Rishonim, Achronim, and the smartest Nation in the history of mankind being oblivious too?
6. I asked about 1,000 years, and you compared the situation to 30 or 50 years ago. That small time period was an aberration. Throughout our history we’ve always had large families (easily 10+ children), no smaller than the Yeshivisha families of today. (Additionally, you’ve said this age gap issue exists with Modern Orthodox community, who don’t have as large families. So that negates your argument it is based on the larger families.)
AZ – 7 questions for you.
1. You haven’t addressed HaRav Miller’s point above.
2. You haven’t addressed tzippi’s point on that.
3. You’ve been dismissive (above) of “gedolim who are no longer with us”. Does this include Chazal, Rashi, the Chofetz Chaim, etc.?
Also, you’ve referred to a time “before the concept of age gap was known”. 4. When did “the concept of age gap” become known? 5. Why wasn’t it known before this time? From everything you’ve been saying for the past 8 months in the forum, “the concept of age gap” is something very elementary and quite obvious – based on simple mathematics. 6. How was it that Klal Yisroel were all oblivious to it until the past few years?
Indeed, the elements you’ve outlined causing the age gap problem (population growth + age differential) have existed for the past 1,000 years in Jewish society. 7. Did Klal Yisroel miss the ball for 1,000 years, and leave this issue (age gap) untreated for all that time?
(Please number your responses 1 – 7. Thanks.)
gavra, Earlier in the thread it was brought that you are allowed to take tzedaka in order to learn, per the Rema and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah.
BTW, despite the higher pay I would strongly dispute that MO Yeshiva’s have better Rebbeim.
Whatever Joe Schmo, er John Doe, er Shikur, er jO jO, er yw E. I suppose you must know. 🙂
From Hagoen HaRav Avigdor Miller ZT’L’s Sefer Awake My Glory:
Paragraph 1095- (There cannot be two kings. The marriage-relationship is twofold. 1) The wife is submissive. This is not only Jewish but natural. There can be no harmony when there are two commanders. Without this indispensable condition the home is disordered. “Arrogance is unbecoming to a woman” – Megillah 14B. For a man it is not an ornament, but for a woman it is as if she wore a mustache. 2) The second, but equally essential foundation: a man must always demonstrate respect for his wife. This is “the way of Jewish men that…honor and support their wives in truth” as stated in the Jewish marriage contract. “He honors her more than his own body” – Yevamos 62B, and “A man must always be careful with his wife’s honor”- Bava Metzia 59A. He is the captain, but she is the First Mate whose counsel is respected. She cannot be made a doormat, she need not beg for money, she deserves some assistance in the house chores, and the husband sides with her against his kin. He must express frequent appreciation and give words of encouragement, and he should remember his wife from time to time with gifts, big or little. Husband and wife should always say “Please” and “Thank you” and never forget to be always polite to one another.) – pages 339-340
Paragraph 1105. Before marriage it is imperative to ascertain the young woman’s attitude toward feminism and “women’s rights” and careerism. It is out of the question to build a Jewish home, or any home whatsoever, if the prospective wife has been tainted with these anti-natural and anti-social preachings. The woman’s career and happiness are in her home: absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her Free Will, and they are her chief forms of serving G-d. The modern orthodox “Rebbetzin” with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce. A Beth Jacob girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beth Jacob marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day. It is never a simple matter to achieve harmony in the home; effort and wisdom and fear of G-d are required. But with the additional burden of feminism, all problems become aggravated; and like all the unnatural and anti-social affectations of the libertarians (342) this leads only to failure and unhappiness.
What are you gonna do about that.
That’s what the polygamy proposal aims to alleviate.
PY: I like it.
It also shares an element with the Chasidesha shidduch model, in that it the groom and bride are pre-chosen with minimal (note I say minimal not none) input by them.
cantoresq, They undoubtedly supported their husbands Limud Torah.
