mentsch1

catch
“Yet, everybody agrees that מזבח מוריד עליו דמעות.”

Relatively recent case I know of. Woman married with several kids loses her husband to a shiksa from the office. I’m sure the mizbeach is shedding lots of tears and not just for the marriage. But who has the right to judge the spouse? what did she do wrong ? and the kids?
Compounding one tragedy that the spouse and kids have to go through by creating more pain, that’s pretty evil. Kids lost a father that they will rarely now see (if ever) and rather then the kids being treated like yesomim with extra sensitivity people should treat them like pariahs ?!

Time
You actually didn’t answer the question. Allow me to re-phrase
I would like to be given a halchic source for people to act with a lack of mentchlikeit toward others that they perceive to “damaged” in some way.
There are examples of shunning in torah. Cherem being the biggest example, but that requires a bais din
The misilas yisharim tells you to pick good friends (hence staying away from bad friends) but you would be hard pressed to find any mussar sefer that tells you that you can act with less middos toward those people. In addition a perceived aveirah (divorce) that you might think the parents did (even though , odds are it was pushed by a Rav and thus not an aveirah) , how does that allow bad middos toward the child?

Time for truth
Just curious,
If your daughter was married to a guy who beat her, you would tell her what? stay in the marriage?
Or if your daughter in law was found out to be having a secret life, you would tell your son to just go to counseling?
And if they took the obvious (and halchically correct solution) of asking for a divorce, you would tell your grandchildren to be honored to be the victim of bias because it’s for the greater good?

Health
It isn’t the solution bc
a) it wasn’t an empathetic remark and
b) those that have bias don’t change bc of circumstance. BH I have been remarried for many years and yet my step daughter (raised in a stable household) experienced this bias despite the fact that the divorce occurred in her infancy.

CT
You are describing a scenario that exists all across the spectrum and is inherent to a capitalist system. We have had the conversation about concierge practices. Isn’t it “unfair” that those with means can afford to get treated so much better in the health care market place?
I have seen a couple of instances where children of big donors got kid glove treatment when there should have been consequences. But I have put kids through multiple big name brooklyn yeshivos and I find , that for the most part, they practice the middos that they teach. I found that , for the most part, principals and teachers went the extra mile. Some of my kids who had issues at the time of divorce and acted out, got those same free passes bc the hanhala understood the circumstances and were willing to give them time.
BH they settled down and it worked out.

For the most part my children, both my own and my step children, where not treated differently.
Though one of my daughters wasn’t accepted to one high school, despite being an exceptional A student. (Behind the scenes feedback stated the reason was the divorce.) That was one school and she was accepted to a different (very good)l school.
For the most part I have found principals to be understanding, and teachers willing to make an extra effort.

I just looked up the kitzur on hilchos erev Rosh Hashanah.
He says very clearly the reasons for going to a cemetery
1) the area around the tzadik is kodesh so tefilla is more accepted
2) it awakens the tzadik to daven for you
3) Hashem is more likely to answer bzchus the tzadik
BUT
He says very clearly don’t address the tzadik as it is close to violating the issur of “lo doresh el hamaisim “

Grateful
Do you think that if the “event” was created anywhere in EY that the result would be different?
If the exact same “kibbutz” was set up by the meoras ha machpelah do you really think the end result would be any different?
People are going for the experience of being part of an event, not bc there is inherent kedusha to the spot. And frankly I find the idea slightly kfiridik. It’s one thing to assign kedusha to an area immediately around the kever of a tzadik. But since most of these 60k aren’t anywhere near the kever, please explain the kedusha.
The Arizal said that if we understood the kedusha of the meoras hamachpeleh we would start kissing the dirt miles bf we got there.
To ascribe some similar kedusha to Uman is kefira.

Neville
If you read some of the articles online you will see that a little drugs is tame to some stuff that happens.
I also personally know a Breslover Talmud chachum from EY who had his jaw broken in Uman two years ago bc he got involved and tried to break up a fight between two rival factions.
I’m sure that 90% of the 40K that go don’t see these things, but I can’t imagine putting myself in a matzav were I might be exposed to something like this on RH.

Yytz
FAir enough
I will grant you the point, and now understand why Breslovers would leave EY to go. But I have actually had Breslov kids come to me collecting “tzedakah” so they can go with their father to Uman. Perhaps now you understand why I’ve always turned them down.

Yutz and others
I’m sure it can be an amazing experience to have so many yidden be mamlich the RBSO
But seriously
If Rav Nachman was alive and he saw so many yidden being yored to the Ukraine for RH
Don’t you think he would grab them by the payos and shout “how can you give up an opportunity to be mamlich the RBSO in his house ?!?!”

If you are being serious though, I would really speak to people who have recently been there. Sure you will have an “experience” but you will also (probably) be exposed to a dark underside. You can easily find that dark underside in various online newspapers. Is seeing a bunch of bad apples desecrate RH worth the experience?
Frankly
I can’t understand why people don’t have an “experience” in Yerushalyim or Chevron or Tzefas. If a Brooklyn shul is too intense why not sit all day by the kotel? I don’t get why Jews run away from EY for yom tov.

MDG
my wifes grandparents lived in this country for 50 years and could both barely speak english. I barely understood them when they spoke english. Yet they both provided for their families.
I’m just saying that bf we allow govt interference in jewish school systems, do we have any proof they are worse off financially?
And even if the answer is yes, Joseph would argue who cares about finances when their neshamas are at stake? and I would agree with him
BC frankly, I am a professional and enjoy the parnasah but wish my soul hadn’t been exposed as much as it was during my MO upbringing and college years.

I’m going to take another POV in this discussion
Everyone seems to take it as a given that chassidish families are at a disadvantage over PS kids. Is there any proof?
Frankly, my first experiences with PS kids in college was not very impressive.
It was 25 years ago. I entered Brooklyn college after several years in Yeshiva. The course was a summer intensive science class that was the first of many required for health related professions (known as premed courses). 70% failed out . Another 15% technically passed but scored low C so no way they would be able to use the class on an admissions application. The class started with 100. The three Yeshiva boys were in the top 15%. Granted there were no chassidim. My point is that my first experience with public school kids was none to impresssive.
I’ve always wondered what percentage ended up on welfare.

Laskern
Factually you are incorrect. Republicans donate more then democrats. Which should be obvious since in general republicans are more religious and donating to charity is more of a religious value then a secular one.
We all remember the great charitable giving of underwear by our former President.
Just this week Deblasio , the great redistributing socialist, made the news bc he gave a whopping $350 in 2017.
Besides the hypocrisy, I’m willing to bet that even the donations made by democrats are heavily skewed toward “charities” that are laughable in the eyes of anyone with morals.

Assuming you are serious
We ( Jewish Republicans and conservatives) feel no obligation to explain ourselves. That’s because liberal ideology is the antithesis to Jewish principals.
The destructive social issues are blatantly obvious. But even the economic principles are wrong.
Our religion doesn’t recognize high taxes as a good thing rather as a form of enslavement ( see the meforshim by Yosef imposing 20% tax on the mitryim)

Shivisi
I believe there are numerous types of depression. But I firmly believe that many types are not biological in nature but rather spiritual. That was really the point of my post.
If we aren’t feeding our soul properly we will feel depressed. This takes many forms. It might be a poor hashkafa, poor emunah skills, a singular focusing on problems. Or it might be wasting time. It all boils down to the soul screaming to be nurtured properly .
Which is why I think the health care fields focus on “taking care of yourself first” or “distract yourself” is exactly the wrong philosophy. It only hurts the process. Helping others first and being productive is soul tonic.
I have met some good psychologists but in general my attitude toward the field is , the blind leading the blind.

But ultimately the hashkafa and Halacha go hand in hand
It is assur to murder. Even when placed under extreme duress. No need is more overriding then self preservation. Yet if a gun is put to our head and we are told to murder we have to take the bullet. This proves that proper mental training (ie knowing halacha, living halacha) can overcome even the most programmed of reflexes. Thus , in that instant of the most extreme of duress, Hashem holds us liable.
Suicide is self murder . Living halacha should overcome any nisayon.
But the scenario I’ve described is one of quick decision making with a stable mind. But most suicides are a result of mental decline . Whether biological or self inflicted due to poor emotional decision making the person and thus the act is a product of numerous questionable reactions.
Halacha looks at the snapshot of the final act. Was the person in mental decline?
It seems only logical that Hashem mitigates the final act due to the decline, but takes the totality of the poor decision making into the entire din process.

I looked it up in kitzur
Hanging is specifically mentioned as an exemption, not bc of regret, rather bc we can assume murder ( people have a chezkas kashrus)
Of course this only applies to the chevra kadisha and not the question of how the mais will be treated in the olam haemes

But the hashkafic question is also contingent on a broader question of perspective. Do we look at the entirety of a situation or at a snapshot of a moment in time .
The person who commits suicide, at the moment of action we can say he was under extreme emotional duress and patur, but maybe the person spent a long time handling his situation poorly . Maybe his response to each nisayon was emotional wrong and thus the despondency with which he finds himself now is of his own creation.

I’m curious
How long did you leave the ice with direct contact to the skin?

Plainolme
Seems you are offering two options
1) spends tens/hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) on a complete communications overhaul
2) educate the parents to exert parental control on a simple matter (not giving your children broadcast radios)
Considering we only hear about this on occasion I’m going to call option (2) the more logical decision

Yidd
As a general rule ; blue/Democrats/liberals are the ones who believe in big government. It is their belief that government knows what’s right and should dictate to the (foolish) masses and it all stems from me the infinite kindness in their hearts.
So whether it’s laws against fireworks to protect the masses from injuring themselves or a ban on styrofoam plates to prevent injury to the planet, it’s the sublime consciousness of a Democrat that makes the world a better place.
Of course (being an ignorant lower life form) I might ask how it helps society to criminalize something that people are going to do anyway and then makes regular law abiding people pay the price of running afoul the criminal system.
But that’s only because I’m ignorant.