Menachem Shmei

I’m surprised that you would accuse me of lying. I didn’t think that was your style.

My point wasn’t to accuse you of lying. I was laying out the only possible options, because that fact that you stated simply isn’t true.

Again, I don’t want the other readers to think that there is some sort of argument if Chabad retracted it or not.

All 13 editions of Likkutei Sichos, from 1962 till the newest one (which was completely retyped), including the blue seforim printed by Kehos (I have it right in front of me) – contain this statement word for word.

I don’t care who fabricated this story (I’m not accusing you, it could have been a misunderstanding on your part).
I care to set the facts straight.

This is a stupid thing to argue about since it’s a מילתא דעבידא לאיגלויי.
If someone doubts me, go to the nearest Lubavitcher, every Lubavitcher has a chelek beis Likkutei Sichos from any given year (usually later editions) in their house.
Open it up to page 511, and see the second paragraph for yourself.

So now we have a Machlokes of Chabad Poskim

I thought that the first time I answered you (in post #2216786) was fairly clear and simple.

I will try to explain one more time. If you still insist in not understanding, so be it. כל הרוצה לטעות יבוא ויטעה

Since Sechel seems to be a Lubavitcher, I doubt he denies this fact:
דאס איז עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף
since this is printed clearly in a sicha (as Sechel himself mentioned many times, and gave us the source in Likkutei Sichos).

What he (as well as I) does deny is your interpretation that “every Lubavicher refers to the Rebbe as god because the Rebbe called himself god.” (ch”v)

If you want to truly know what this statement means, you will look at the Yerushalmi and Zohar that the Rebbe quotes there, and you will look at all the statements that I quoted in post #2213451, and you will look at the shiur from Rabbi YY Jacobson that I just wrote in a different post.

One more time: Neither I nor Sechel are denying the truth of the aforementioned statement (דאס איז…), we are denying your interpretation and accusation.

I don’t think I can get any clearer than this, so it’s my last try.

maybe you can explain how that דעה נפסדה fits with the י״ג עיקרים

Just as you can explain that all of the quotes I brought earlier in post #2213451 fit with the ikrim.

(I tried linking it before, but it kept linking the entire thread)

P.S. For anyone actually interested in the topic and is wondering, “Indeed, what did the Rebbe, Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Yerushalmi and Zohar mean when they wrote all of these surprising statements?” –
I suggest you watch an incredible shiur from Rabbi YY Jacobson on the topic: http://www.theyeshiva dot net/8291
(Although he discusses the general topic with many quotes from gedolim throughout the generations, he indeed doesn’t explicitly quote the Rebbe’s statement. I guess so as not to turn off his litvisher audience)

So now you’re backing off from your previous statement that the Rebbe himself stated that he’s god clothed in human form… Instead you’re saying that no Lubavicher holds like this…. Rabbi Dr. Berger named 8 senior Rabbis from the vaunted Oholei Torah who claimed that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. Had he been lying he would have been sued for millions.

This is ridiculous. Sechel never denied about G-d enclothed in a body.
Why would you prove from “eight senior rabbis” when Sechel himself just quoted it from the most senior Chabad rabbi of all – the Lubavitcher Rebbe!?

He denied your understanding of that statement, which is perfectly fine.

Rav Hershel Schachter, [stated] that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avoda Zarah.

Does he mean that they go to the ohel and ask the Rebbe to intercede on their behalf to Hashem?
This is true.
Many major poskim allow/encourage this, and it has been accepted in klal yisroel for millennia, as I’ve proven once in an earlier post.
(Incidentally, on the topic of the “Dovid Lichtenstein radio program” – it should be noted that he ran a program on this topic a few weeks ago.)

Does he mean that when Lubavitchers daven shmoneh esrei, they think, “Rebbe, give us rain” instead of Hashem (ch”v)?
This is a lie, and a libel against hundreds of thousands of kosher Jews.
Whoever told Rav Schachter this slander will have to face judgment for fooling a gadol b’yisroel and using him to spread motzi shem ra on fellow Jews.
With all due respect, how many Lubavitchers has Rav Schachter even seen davening? Let alone discussed it with, so he came to such a conclusion!? I have seen and discussed davening with thousands of fellow Lubavitchers, and I can assure that these claims are completely false.

The only response was from a Rabbi Aron Moss who is a Chabad Rabbi

The article you read was from Chabad.org, which is explaining the problem with television to non-frum people, so it is very watered down.
Actually, I have long despised that article, since it describes the problem with TV as more of a cultural issue than a religious one.

There are many places online where you can find more authoritative content on this.

Once we’re on the topic of Lubavitch, I would suggest you look up a very sharp and comprehensive talk of the Rebbe where he describes many of the issues with TV.

You can find a translated version by googling:
television: the ruination of a generation – rebbe

when I admitted to the posters that I’m ignorant with regard to learning having started relatively late in life. You twisted what I said to read, “You admit you’re ignorant about Lubavitch”

Let’s do the whole “you said, I said” thing to clear this up:

In connection to the nevuah question, you said:
“The answer is simple because there was never any question of the Rebbe being a Novi while he was alive. This is nothing but an invention of his followers. What I believe the Rebbe did say, because I heard this from a Lubavicher, is…”

I pointed out how silly it is to argue with me about what the Rebbe did or didn’t say, when it’s printed clearly (and shared link).

[Happens to be a sicha from this week. Ask any slightly knowledgeable Lubavitcher what the Rebbe said on parshas Shoftim 5751, and he’ll tell you (if he’s not afraid of being open with you) that the rabbeim are nevi’im etc.]

You excused yourself by saying that you don’t have any time to actually study the Rebbe’s writings.

I countered that being ignorant about Chabad isn’t an excuse to attack it. Better use the little time you have learning the topic, not arguing the topic.

Sorry if I came across as trying to twist the truth.

Paraphrasing qwerty’s last post (tell me if I got this right):

Dear Avira,
Menachem pointed out the irony how I admit to being ignorant about Lubavitch, after all, being such a busy man, I have no time to learn about it. Yet, at the same time, I have all the time in the world to attack that which I don’t know about. Why don’t I spend my little time learning instead of attacking?

Being that I had no good answer to this, I retaliated by pointing out that he missed the title “rabbi” in his post.

Of course, being a Lubavitcher, Menachem wouldn’t admit that he was wrong, and (despite adding rabbi in his next post) he insisted that it made no difference to him if he used the term rabbi or not, even though Kahane was killed al kiddush Hashem.

And then, dear Avira, instead of defending our anti-Lubavitch team, you did the unthinkable: You defected to the Lubavitch team!
Now, it’s okay to be against (Rabbi) Meir Kahane, but not if that adds points to the Lubavitch team!

Avira, as a fellow anti-Lubavitcher, I must say, I’m disappointed in you…
You should stand with your team through thick and thin, whether you agree with that specific view or not.

ARSo,

>>>I heard not that long ago that there is actually no reliable source that a Yid who was killed because he is Jewish goes straight to Gan Eden. I would like to a source either way.

I haven’t seen anything on this, but maybe this Gemara could be considered a source, or remez?
הרוגי מלכות אין אדם יכול לעמוד במחיצתן.
This is talking davka about those who aren’t tzaddikim (because tzaddikim go anyway), as is understood from the continuation there (Pesachim 50a)

>>>Menachem, I have to give it to you…

I’m embarrassed to say this, but this compliment actually felt quite good, even coming from you 😏

CORRECTION:

I reread my earlier post about anivus, and I realized that something might be misunderstood.

I wrote: “And the Rebbe said publicly that he lacks…”
I did NOT mean that the Rebbe said this about Rabbi Miller (as might be understood from how I wrote).
The Rebbe said this about himself.

>>>It is reported that the Rebbe made predictions and performed miracles. Rambam writes (Yesodei hatorah 8) that signs are irrelevant, and Israel did not believe in Moses our Rabbi as a result of the signs that he performed.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that according to the Rambam, performing miracles and predicting the future are not proof that one is a novi.

If this is truly what you meant, this is called מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה.

How do you have the chutzpa to publicly forge the Rambam like this?
(I thought it’s only the Rebbe who you take random statements out of context לקנטר. Now I see that you do the same with the Rambam, רחמנא ליצלן.)

For everyone else who isn’t sure what I’m talking about:

The Rambam says that Moshe was the the head of all the nevi’im because he wasn’t believed because of miracles, rather because we, with our own eyes, saw Hashem speak to him at Mattan Torah (יסודי התורה ח).

Then, Moshe commanded us: “נביא מקרבך מאחיך כמני יקים לך ה’ אלקיך אליו תשמעון”.
The way to recognize a novi, Moshe told us, is if he performs miracles or predicts the future (יסודי התורה י).
If he shows these signs, we know that he was sent by Hashem, and אליו תשמעון – we must obey him.

>>>his followers believe that he is a god

I already answered this enough times. No point going back there.

>>>the difference between chabad’s view on chabad and the rebbe, and the misnagdim is this… pretty crazy how people can deny such obvious facts.

You’re judging Chabad from the inside and non-Chabad from the outside (internet or random meetings on the street).
This doesn’t really count as an “obvious difference.”

It is always easy to notice מעלות עצמו and חסרונות חבירו.
I assume that just as obvious the maalos of Chabad are to you (and me) – the maalos of the litvisher derech or poilisher derech are obvious to them.

qwerty,

Please call me Rabbi Menachem Shmei, since I have received smicha

>>>I don’t have the time nor the ability to study all the available sources firsthand

If I knew nothing about eiruvin and I only have 20 minutes of free time every day.

I have two options:
1) Spend those 20 minutes learning about eiruvin.
2) Spend those 20 minutes arguing about eiruvin.

If I pick the second option, I will probably lose the argument most of the time. But I can always excuse myself that it’s not my fault, after all I am the greatest genius! Is it my fault that I’m not learned in eiruvin!? I have no free time to learn!

This is called the arrogance of ignorance.
(as RABBI Meir Kahane used to say.
Were you upset that I missed “rabbi” or that I wrote הי”ד?)

Meir Kahane הי”ד would often say:
“Ignorance is tolerable.
Arrogance is bad, but I can tolerate it as well.
But the arrogance of ignorance is unacceptable!”
(It’s possible he borrowed this quote from others, but he’s who I know it from)

וד”ל…

>>>What I believe the Rebbe did say, because I heard this from a Lubavicher

Should I point out for the umpteenth time how ridiculous it is to THEORIZE about what the Rebbe MIGHT have said, when it is literally printed right here???
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16067&st=&pgnum=337

>>>Did he have a special message from God for the Jewish People?

Yes. All the questions here on what the Rebbe said are answered by what the Rebbe actually said. Learn the sicha. Unless questions appeal more than answers.

>>>Tzaddikim tend to hide their light under a bushel.

Correct. The Rebbe very rarely hinted to his tzidkus only when extremely necessary.
Again, if you learn the actual sicha you’ll see that the Rebbe is speaking about the tzidkus of his father-in-law. Chassidim inferred from it to apply it to the Rebbe as well.
Similar to how your father might not tell you how to respect him, but you learn from the way he respects his own parents.

On this topic, while looking through Igros Kodesh (collection of Rebbe’s letters gathered from the recipients or archives) here is something shocking I came across (vol. 16, letter #5907):

Yaakov Zerubavel was a leftist philosopher who fought vehemently against Yiddishkeit.
In this 5718 letter to Yaakov Avraham Leselbaum, a relative of the philosopher, the Rebbe asks him to meet up with Zerubaval and details what he should tell him so he should rethink his views and stop spreading his nonsense. The letter finishes off:
ולאות ולמופת לקרובו הנ”ל אשר בא העת לבקורת עוד הפעם על שיטתו בעבר, יהי’ לו החלום שבסמוך לדבורו עמו.
“As a sign and miracle for your relative that the time has come to rethink his opinion – he will have a dream near the time that you speak to him.”

I don’t know the end of the story, but a few months later, we find another letter to Leselbaum:
נהניתי במאד לקרות בו, אשר סו”ס עלה בידו לקיים בקשתי ולמסור למר ז. שי’ את הדברים. וטוב במיוחד שלא נכנס לכל ויכוחים וכל שקו”ט, כי לא זו הכוונה. ועפי”ז מובן ג”כ, שגם להבא אין לו להכנס בוכוחים בזה. והרי עשה שליחותי וגם אני עשיתי שליחותי שלי.
“You have fulfilled your mission and I have fulfilled mine…”

The letters can be found in their entirety here:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15827&st=&pgnum=144

Avira,

I don’t know if you read the entire discussion there.
He explains that the title רואה is used about a novi when he uses his power of nevuah to help individuals.

He also brings from Rambam yesodei hatorah that how does one become a novi? If he delves into Torah and careful in serving Hashem, he merits that ruach hakodesh rests upon him.

Then he says that so too nowadays, there are people who are so perfect in their Torah learning and yiras shamayim, that Hashem gives them the same power of רואה (novi) to guide us in avodas Hashem.

This is exactly what the Rebbe said. Since nevua is a foundation of Torah and the Rambam doesn’t give any time limits for it, rather he says that in any time that a holy man arises and performs miracles he is a novi – this teaches that even nowadays (though much less common since נסתלקה רוח הקודש) the spirit of nevua can rest upon great tzaddikim so they can guide us in spiritual and physical matters.
This is especially proven from the Rambam who writes that as a PREPARATION for Moshiach, nevua will definitely return to Yisroel. אין ספק שחזרת הנבואה לישראל הוא הקדמת המשיח

>>>a woman speaking to a group of men … is accepted by the vast majority

I’m not sure what you mean. If you’re referring to a crowd of non frum men and women, though it’s not so common, it is possible that some shluchos do this. It’s possible that it’s wrong, it’s possible that they have a heter from a rov.

If you’re talking about in front of a group of Lubavitcher men, I’ve never seen such a thing, so it’s definitely not something accepted by the mainstream.

For example, they would never ch”v have a woman speak at the kinnus, or at the children’s rallies, etc. Unless you include a young girl saying the pesukim (at rallies, children come up to lead the other children in saying pesukim and maamorei chazal. Sometimes a boy leads the posuk, and sometimes a girl. Children.)

Even if something like this happens, it comes from modernity. Yes there are modern orthodox Jews who call themselves Chabad because they generally follow the Chabad derech. Called Chabad lite.
Where i think your completely wrong is that this has anything to do with the geula or “the boss”. On the contrary, the ones who care more about “the boss” and talk more about Moshiach tend to be the more frum ones. Those who are more modern will admit that the Rebbe isn’t too happy about what they’re doing (let’s not get into a whole thing on this, just answering what you brought up) and that it’s distancing the geula.

>>>Unlike most other rebbes who spend a majority of their time dealing with askonim on inyonei tzibbur and and regular supplicants, the Lubavicher rebbe sat in his room by himself most of the day. It makes sense that he prepared his sichos.

I love this post. Usually people claim that the Rebbe isn’t a gadol because he spent too much time in askonus and no time learning. It’s refreshing to see someone who knows the truth, though I don’t know why you had to go to the opposite extreme.

מענין לענין, just last night I was watching a Chof Av farbrengen from 5731 (commemorating the Rebbe’s father’s yahrtzeit).
Four hours of pure bliss! It started with a hadran on Chagigah, and then the he built a lishitasayu of Shamai and Hillel. After explaining their general positions, he presented a machlokes between Hillel and Shamai from a each seder of shas, and showed how they all follow the same reasoning. Wrapped up with a lesson for how to look at another Yid based on the machlokes in Keitzad Merakdim.
This was followed by a pilpul explaining the opinions of Rashi and Maharsha in a Gemara in Taanis with about 10 powerful questions on the Gemara which were all answered with one point.
And much more. I thank Hashem for giving me access to this!

>>>R’ Chaim Kanievsky predicted…

On the topic of Reb Chaim Kanievsky, I found something very interesting in the sefer אשכתבא דרבי – בני ברק תשמ”ו about his father (the Steipler). It is about 5 pages long, so I will summarize:

The Rambam writes that it is a foundation of Torah that Hashem gives humans nevuah. He says that as soon as someone purifies himself etc. the ruach hakodesh rests upon him, and he is a novi. Hashem sends us these people to inform us the future, and even the physical needs of individuals, as we find with Shmuel and the donkeys of Shaul’s father.

Since this is one of the foundations of the Torah, it is even applicable nowadays, despite the fact that we are in a state of concealment.

In every single generation, Hashem planted great Jews who have this very power of nevua as the neviim of old.

We know of the great powers of the Chofetz Chayim (-he goes on to recount some stories) as well as the Chazon Ish.

And in our generation, we merited to have the Kehilos Yaakov who is way above the rest of the nation. In his perfection, he has served to be a רואה (-he explains earlier that this is another title used for neviim (ע”פ מצודות דוד), specifically when they are prophesying regarding physical matters).

Many people think that he would just give brochos, but this is not the case. Rather, he is one of the רואים just as in the days of old, since this is an eternal part of klal Yisroel.

ע”כ תוכן דבריו.

It’s quite ironic, because if you learn the sicha of the Rebbe that everyone keeps quoting (but no one actually read of course, for the fear of being “led astray” (i.e. getting convinced)) – you’ll see that this is almost exactly the same idea that the Rebbe is conveying. Including the way they learn the Rambam, etc.
(By the way, did you learn through Rambam hilchos yesodei Hatorah about the halachos of nevuah? If you didn’t, that’s a pretty good reason why you can’t seem to fathom the idea of current nevuah).

I’m convinced that if you would actually read the sicha as well as the אשכבתא דרבי, you will switch your argument, and start attacking the Rebbe for just copying what was written about the Steipler 🙂.

You can find אשכתבא דרבי on Otzar Hachochma for free (tablet.otzar dot com). Page צח ואילך.