Menachem Shmei

Is there anything still happening with the point I raised about ‘bias ‘ ?

I don’t understand what wasn’t clear in my first post.

I’ll repeat: I know lots of Lubavitchers were parts of other groups (see above for details) and decided that the truth is in Lubavitch.

If I can’t write anything due to my bias, I can get one of those many friends to write for me. Should I do that?

I think that we need Mashiach now …. the REAL one .

This is one thing we both agree on.

the Lubavich claim that when other non-Lubavich chassidim say the words “the rebbe” they are openly referring only to the Lubavicher rebbe, not to their own rebbe

I never heard this, but I guess it’s possible that a (more) ignorant Lubavitcher guy thought this once. Okay, whatever.

“being a talmid/chasid of anyone can make you unable to see their mistakes or chisronos”

There are two reasons for this:
1. Because they are biased, and too blind to see the truth.
2. Because they have a true knowledge and understanding of their Rebbe’s teaching’s, so they might know that what others are saying are untrue or misinterpretations.

Obviously, I think of myself as a number 2 (as I think every human being does), because I love myself, and consider myself an intellectual person. Even if I’m biased, I’m to blinded to see it.

Can anyone here point out a godol beYisroel over the last generations who pushed his greatness to the forefront as much as the Lubavicher rebbe did?

This is twisting the facts and extremely disrespectful. Anyone who knows anything about the Rebbe knows his incredible anivus.

All those things you quoted were actually said about his father-in-law. His anivus was so great, that he never publicly called himself the Rebbe. He constantly said that the Rebbe and nossi was his father-in-law.

Even by the official “kabbolas hanesius” on Yud Shevat (after a full year of begging by the chassidim, and his constant refusal) he never officially said “I am Rebbe”. He just hinted to accepting it with a maamar.

Yet, he stil continued to consider his father-in-law the Rebbe.

The chassidim were the ones who pushed his greatness to the forefront. They gave him the same honor that he gave to his father-in-law.

I don’t know how to read such postings. I learn woth Artscroll.

Free translation from Chabad dot org:

B”H

Many people seek to pinpoint and characterize the vir­tues and preeminence of each of the Rebbeim of Chabad, and in particular of the Nasi of our generation — my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, הכ”מ — in various terms:2 the paradigm of self-sacrifice, a gaon, a man of exemplary character traits, a tzaddik, an individual endowed with divine inspira­tion, an individual accustomed to [performing] miracles, and so on.

When one considers how the teachings of Chassidus de­fine what self-sacrifice really means, what being a gaon really means, and so on, these are indeed extremely lauda­tory terms.

Nevertheless, the essential point is missing here. Apart from this being the essence per se, it is especially important because of the vital effect it has [in general], and in particular upon us, the community of those who are his chassidim and who are bound to him. That essential point is the fact that he is the Nasi, and the Nasi of Chabad.

For a Nasi by definition is referred to as3 the head of the multitudes of Israel; in relation to them he is the “head” and “brain”; their nurture and life-force reach them through him; and by cleaving to him they are bound and united with their Source in the Supernal worlds.

There are various categories of Nesiim:4 some Nesiim convey their influence in an internalized manner; others diffuse their influence in an indirect and encompassing manner.5 These differences may be further subdivided: some Nesiim endow their recipients with insights into the revealed plane of the Torah (Nigleh); some endow their recipients with insights into the mystical plane of the Torah, and some do both together; some instruct their followers in the paths of avodah and Chassidus; some direct material benefits to their followers; and so on.

And there are Nesi’im who comprise several of these attributes, or even all of them.6

This [essential] quality [of a Nasi] has characterized the leadership of the Nesiim of Chabad from the very beginning, from the Alter Rebbe up to and including my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, הכ”מ. They incorporated all the above attributes: they radiated both inward and encompassing influence — in Torah, in avodah, and in the practice of good deeds; [and they conveyed blessings both] spiritual and material. Consequently, [the Nesiim of Chabad] have been bound7 with all 613 organs of the soul and body of those who were connected with them.

Every single one of us must know — i.e., must think deeply and fix his thought8 on this — that [the Rebbe Rayatz] is indeed the Nasi and the head; from him and through him are directed all material and spiritual benefac­tions; and by being bound to him (in his letters he has taught us how this is accomplished)9 we are bound and united with the spiritual root, with the ultimate Supernal spiritual root.

Menachem Schneerson

3 Tammuz, 5710 [1950]
Brooklyn, N.Y.

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FOOTNOTES
1.
[The letter appears in Sefer HaMaamarim 5710, p. 254; it is reprinted in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XI, p. 209.]

2.
[See the discussion of these virtues in the conclusion of Letter No. 637.]

3.
See Tanya, ch. 2.

4.
Discussed at length in: Torah Or, Parshas Miketz, s.v. Mitzvas Ner Chanukah; Sefer HaMitzvos (Derech Mitzvosecha) by the Tzemach Tzedek, s.v. Mitzvas Ner Chanukah, sec. 3; and in the maamar beginning LeMaan Daas, 5669 [in Sefer HaMaamarim 5669, p. 39ff.].

5.
[Bivchinas makif, in the original.]

6.
As discussed in Torah Or (loc. cit.), end of sec. 7, Mashiach comprises the quali­ties of both ro’im and nesichim. In the Talmud (Sukkah 52b), Mashiach is reckoned among the nesichim, evidently because this is his dominant quality.

[Torah Or, loc. cit., explains that the term ro’im (shepherds) refers to leaders who draw down influence that is internalized among the Jewish people. Nesichim (princes) refers to leaders whose influence is conveyed bederech makkif (in an encompassing manner). Although Mashiach will convey both these types of influence (i.e., he will be both teacher and king), his primary quality will resemble that of the nesichim.]

7.
[In the original (as a noun), hiskashrus.]

8.
[In the original, “know” is ladaas, implying attachment born of this kind of thinking; cf. Tanya, end of ch.3.]

9.
[See Letter No. 561 which discusses this bonding process.]

Menachem Shmei who want[s] me to study the sugya which “proves” that the Rebbe is…

Qwerty,

You saying that I’m trying to prove to you that the Rebbe is … is like if I were to say that you’re trying to convince us to watch TV.

why was west coast chabad leader shlomo cunin not worried about publicizing his belief that “the rebbe runs the world,”

This is definitely a mainstream Chabad statement, I won’t argue with you on that one.

I don’t think he meant it in the way that you’re taking it.
Honestly, I’ve seen people rail about this for years in the CR, while the statement doesn’t seem so problematic to me (as opposed to the “Who Elokeinu” line, or if he would have said that he “creates the world” or the like).

Rabbi Cunin obviously isn’t saying chas v’shalom that the world isn’t in Hashem’s hands.
He literally says 30 seconds earlier “דער אויבערשטער וועט העלפן that we will have gevaldike nissim…”

With his “runs the world” statement he seems to be saying that being that they are the Rebbe’s shluchim, doing his work, the Rebbe takes a level of achrayus over them, and hopefully the world will see that the tzaddik protected them (unfortunately, we weren’t zoche to nissim).

There is an idea of tzaddikim having a level of control and responsibility for what happens in the world (given to them by Hashem).
This is the idea of צדיק יסוד עולם – that his zechus protects the world and keeps it going.

There is a vort in Midrash Talpiyos, brought in many chassidus sforim (Kedushas Levi, etc.) on the Gemara כל העולם ניזון בשביל חנינא בני:
מכאן יראה מעלת הצדיק לפני הקב”ה, ושמסר העולם ברשותו ושיעבד לו לעשות כל רצונו כו’. והטעם שכיון שהעולם נברא בשביל הצדיק וכולם נבראו לצוותו כמאחז”ל, לכן מסר הקב”ה כל העולם בידו ושיעבדו תחתיו לקיים כל מה שיגזור…
It goes on to say that if only everyone in the world knew this, that the world is in the hands of tzaddikim, they would give the tzaddikim tremendous honor.

I think that is his point. The hope that the people of the world will recognize that they’re under the reshus of the tzaddik.

And I remember an article that appeared in Beis Moshiach many years ago

I assume that you were not a avid reader of Beis Moshiach. Probably, the way that you know about the idiotic article is because David Berger made a big deal about it (he mentions it at least three separate times in his book).

“Beis Moshiach” was established as an anti-establishment magazine in the 90s by some people who felt that Kfar Chabad magazine (the official chabad magazine for decades) wasn’t radical enough for them.

Nowadays, Beis Moshiach has become a bit more mainstream (while still very meshichist), and they would never print such an article today.

The very fact that David Berger had to bring all of his “proofs” from various marginalized and anti-establishment material (such as Beis Moshiach, as well as from “Sichat Hageula” which was created to compete with the mainstream “Sichat Hashavua” etc.) – most of which wouldn’t dream of printing those statements today – shows how much this is accepted in Chabad…

Interestingly enough, after David Berger mentions this article several times in his book, he points out (in the appendix) that the article’s author later retracted what he said, and in his later works he “vigorously denies that G-d can be a human being.”

I know someone who says… “Baruch the Rebbe”

I can’t deny that you know someone like this, but I do find it ironic that as a Lubavitcher who meets thousands of other Lubavitchers from many different groups (including some very radical “meshichists”) I’ve never met someone like this.

Maybe the Lubavitchers who believe this are afraid to share their views with other Lubavitchers for the fear of being ostracized or something, which again shows how much this is accepted in Chabad…

when they pray they have in mind hashem the way hes מלובש in mm”s

Should I point out again that this is not true? That I don’t know a single Lubavitcher like this?

You may be confusing with going to the ohel and asking the Rebbe to intercede on our behalf from Hashem, which is allowed/encouraged by poskim as I’ve mentioned in previous posts.

But when a Lubavitcher davens shmone esrei, they don’t have in mind the Rebbe.
No matter how many times this lie is repeated, it will not change the metzius.

To Menachem Shmei’s credit, he’s able to understand… Unfortunately the black hatters are so dogmatic

I hope you don’t mind, but I’m gonna share a little secret:
Technically, I’m a black hatter too!

The Rabbi asked me a question and I told him that I know the answer but I can’t explain it He told me if you can’t explain it you don’t know it.

עס ווענט זיך וואו מ’רעדט

Many (most?) sugyos in Torah demand lots of background and discussion in order to understand properly. The CR is not very conducive to this.

I would gladly give you a two hour shiur on the subject, but the anonymity of the forum prevents this.

Therefore, if you actually care to understand, I suggest you listen to the informative and clear English shiur by Rabbi Jacobson that I mentioned earlier.

EggMob,

Whenever I discussed this statement, all I did was bring sources from previous gedolim with similar statements. My goal was to show that it’s ridiculous when people shut off to Chabad because of “AZ” but they are ready to blindly accept the same ideas when quoted from anyone else.

I never attempted to explain the actual meaning of this, since it is a lengthy topic, as n0mesorah mentioned.

I suggest checking out the shiur of Rabbi YY Jacobson that I mentioned in post #2216858.

It is a long shiur, as is befitting such a topic. If you are indeed interested in understanding this, I would suggest you take the time to watch the entire thing.

Lostspark, I demand that you apologize to all doctors for insulting the medical profession, and until you do so, you better not post anything here, or else you will not be zoche to join the geula, since all the doctors will chase you away from the MO moshiach. Checkmate.

Shmei has consistently stated, in no uncertain terms, that the Rebbe is god. I can agree with you that the Rebbe didn’t mean this

Please point out where I said anything like this, other than quoting the Likkutei Sichos volume 2 and previous gedolim?

I have a question for Menachem, n0m, sechel and all the other Lubavichers on this thread…
the official Lubavich line was that every generation must have someone who is fit to be Mashiach. So my question is, who is it in our generation?

This isn’t a just a Lubavitch line (although we are indeed very into it). It’s a Bartenura, Chasam Sofer, S’dei Chemed, and others.

Who it is? As I’ve posted quite a number of times, I feel uncomfortable answering this question in the CR, since it is a sensitive idea that needs a lot of background and is a lot easier to discuss in person.
So, sorry, I’ll have to decline.

P.S. I highly doubt that n0mesora is a Lubavitcher.
Unless this is a game of chess with two teams, in which he might be pushed onto the Chabad team.
But then I would possibly end up on the non-Chabad team, since I agreed with Coffee Addict somewhere above.
Wow, the chess metaphor makes everything so confusing!

Had the Rebbe issued clearcut statements this mess would have been avoided, but he chose not to do so.

It was clear enough for those it was intended for. The haters will always hate.
What do you have to say for all the other gedolim I mentioned whose words could be easily misinterpreted by their opponents?

I hope Moshiach turns out to be MO because a bigot like you won’t accept him and you’ll miss out on all the enjoyment of Geulah.

Oy, Hashem yerachem. Please, take a deep breath and drink a glass of water before responding to people.
Despite all of your great superiorities that you often write about (logic, truth, writing ability, etc. etc.), maybe even you sometimes go too far?

Don’t be surprised by any tactic that Rabbi Shmei uses. He has to defend his god and his false religion.

Easy way to win any argument that you can’t answer. Turn your opponents into the devil.

Sorry qwerty, I don’t think ARSo will fall for this.

I’m surprised that you would accuse me of lying. I didn’t think that was your style.

My point wasn’t to accuse you of lying. I was laying out the only possible options, because that fact that you stated simply isn’t true.

Again, I don’t want the other readers to think that there is some sort of argument if Chabad retracted it or not.

All 13 editions of Likkutei Sichos, from 1962 till the newest one (which was completely retyped), including the blue seforim printed by Kehos (I have it right in front of me) – contain this statement word for word.

I don’t care who fabricated this story (I’m not accusing you, it could have been a misunderstanding on your part).
I care to set the facts straight.

This is a stupid thing to argue about since it’s a מילתא דעבידא לאיגלויי.
If someone doubts me, go to the nearest Lubavitcher, every Lubavitcher has a chelek beis Likkutei Sichos from any given year (usually later editions) in their house.
Open it up to page 511, and see the second paragraph for yourself.

So now we have a Machlokes of Chabad Poskim

I thought that the first time I answered you (in post #2216786) was fairly clear and simple.

I will try to explain one more time. If you still insist in not understanding, so be it. כל הרוצה לטעות יבוא ויטעה

Since Sechel seems to be a Lubavitcher, I doubt he denies this fact:
דאס איז עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף
since this is printed clearly in a sicha (as Sechel himself mentioned many times, and gave us the source in Likkutei Sichos).

What he (as well as I) does deny is your interpretation that “every Lubavicher refers to the Rebbe as god because the Rebbe called himself god.” (ch”v)

If you want to truly know what this statement means, you will look at the Yerushalmi and Zohar that the Rebbe quotes there, and you will look at all the statements that I quoted in post #2213451, and you will look at the shiur from Rabbi YY Jacobson that I just wrote in a different post.

One more time: Neither I nor Sechel are denying the truth of the aforementioned statement (דאס איז…), we are denying your interpretation and accusation.

I don’t think I can get any clearer than this, so it’s my last try.