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This thread (beginning with the tunnel incident and continuing with the perpetual discussion about the Rebbe being Moshiach) reminds me of this story that I recently read:
In a certain country the government had to keep the prisoners busy, and therefore they would be put to work every day all day.
On one floor, the job for the prisoners was to replace buttons on army uniforms, and on the other prisoners were in charge of removing buttons from old unusable uniforms to give to those putting buttons.
After a couple weeks, there was no more work left to do for the army, and the warden was worried that riots would break out if the prisoners were bored, so he came up with a brilliant idea.
Every day, the clothes would move from one floor to the other, some would put buttons and some would remove, on the same army suits… and that’s how they kept busy week after week, year after year….
I love how the YWNCR moderation system sometimes creates some very ironic posting.
Notice how Sechel’s post comes right after DaMoshe’s:
DaMoshe:“We see here what happens when you point out that they’re wrong – all you get is, “Learn Chassidus! You aren’t an expert, so you can’t have an opinion!””
Sechel:“my understanding of all these things are based on what i learned in niglah and chassidus. i dont write anything without a source.
just to point out chassidus is unlimited. there are over 300 seforim of sifrai chabad. there are seforim of other chassidus too. (b”h Hashem gave me a good head, and i learned alot)”DaMoshe, now you can probably say ברוך שכיוונתי! 😅
P.S. I don’t necessarily agree with what DaMoshe actually said, just enjoying the irony.
PS when you have people like @83 who think what was done was 100% ok is all the proof that you need a living breathing rebbe.
common, no one has yet answered my question: What about other chassidusen that also have dumb people who do really dumb things like violence and fighting that makes it to the news etc. DESPITE having a living breathing rebbe? The only response I’ve gotten is “How dare you point out problems in any sect which is not Chabad.”
In the Rebbe’s opening address on Yud Shevat 73 years ago, he said that Chabad chassidus doesn’t believe in the concept of relying on the rebbe to do all the work for you. Every chossid has bechira chofshis to work on refining himself and behaving properly, or ch”v the opposite.
Here’s a free translation of that sicha (right after saying the first maamar, formally accepting the nesius):
Fellow Jews, listen now!
Traditionally, Chabad has demanded that every individual do his own avodah alone, instead of relying on the Rebbeim. This is the difference66 between the Polish school of Chassidus and the Chabad school of Chassidus. The former school has a non-literal interpretation of the verse,67 וצדיק באמונתו יחי-ה — “And a tzaddik lives with his faith”: “Do not read yichyeh but [in the causative mood] yechayeh.” I.e., it is the tzaddik who gives life to all those who are bound to him. We of Chabad, however, all have to do our own work alone, with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the body and with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the soul.
The Sages teach:68 הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים — “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven.” I am not (G‑d forbid) withdrawing from giving help to the degree that one’s capabilities allow. However, since “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven,” then if there is no independent individual avodah, what can be gained from giving out manuscripts [of Chassidus], singing niggunim, and saying LeChaim?
The Rebbe [Rayatz] used to warn chassidim against self-delusion. Every individual chassid himself has to transform the folly of the Other Side [i.e., of the forces of evil] and the seething disposition of his animal soul — to kedushah.69
What happened last week was a bunch of bucherim who took it into there own hands and based on their own interpretation of what the Rebbeh may or may have not said decided to go ahead a destroy a shul, something that would have unthinkable with a true chosid of the old.
This is also unthinkable for a true chosid today, hence the outcry and outrage from all mashpiim, shluchim, rabbanim, balebatim and bochurim.
Kuvult, I’m not sure what you mean or how it answers my point.
If you’re trying to say that an outsider to chassidus doesn’t see anything special about it? That’s pretty much what I responded to you previously about the outsider historian’s claim to frum Jews.I grew up in the 70s and 80s and the zeknai lubabvich were simple g-d fearing people who would never never thought of breaking down walls in a shul because of some warped person decided to do so
You seem to have no idea what happened last week. Or I completely misunderstood you.
I’m not exactly sure where you saw in my response that I was offended
I’m sorry for assuming that.
your maligning a group of Jews on a public forum for selfish reasons was pretty disgusting.
Question: Do you feel that YWN’s reporting on the 770 tunnels was also maligning a group of Jews on a public forum and therefore pretty disgusting?
If not, why is reporting on the Ponevezh brawl in 5781 any different?
If yes, why didn’t you comment on the entire YWN article instead of focusing on a single commenter?the article that was very clear that it didn’t have any issue with Lubavitch per se, and that those boys were in no way representative of the greater community, and despite that you felt a need, just in case it would somehow be misconstrued as a chillul Lubavitch, to immediately show how other Jews have the same problem.
And it’s quite apparent from the existence of this thread that it was indeed seen as representative of issues in Lubavitch as a whole, which is why I feel that my comment was necessary, as I elaborated on in earlier posts (people find faults in others but not in themselves, etc.).
I want to clarify again that I’m not ch”v looking to condemn other communities, rather point to a greater issue that we must all deal with together.
when you were rightfully criticizing the editors description of these boys as terrorists, you decided to describe the yerushalmi protesters as animals
My intention was not at all to start calling Jews names. It was purely a play on words from the nusach used by YWN:
They compared the bochurim to “animals in Gaza” so I was saying (slightly sarcastically) that even if they want to use a derogatory term for these bochurim, it should be comparing them to other violent protestors in the Jewish community, not Hamas terrorists who killed Jews. My using the word “animals” about violent protestors was purely to emphasize how I was borrowing YWN’s nusach.kuvult,
Telling your whole historical narrative to a chossid (at least a Chabad chossid – I can only talk for myself) is like a secular historian trying to convince a frum Yid about the “real way” that the Torah was composed by some random scholars…
We see the concept of a Rebbe from a chassidus perspective, so it takes on a whole different meaning.
So you agree that litvish Torah learning is the same as Lubavitch learning chassidus?
Not exactly, but specifically in this context of sometimes one can learn and learn but it doesn’t have the desired effect on him – I think this does apply to both. Maybe on different levels, I’m not sure
ujm, thanks!
coffee addict,
But don’t we claim the same thing about Yiddishkeit? Don’t we say that Torah makes a person more eidel, that a proper Jewish education should give someone better midos?
Respectfully, your taana sounds quite similar to the taana of the “chilonim” when something happens in the frum community at large: “The chreidim paint themselves as holier than thou because they learn Torah and keep mitzvos, yet…”
Of course, the answer to both taanos is: Our learning is supposed to affect us, and hopefully it does for many people. Is that to say that we don’t have a yetzer hara? Does Hashem take away our bechira chofshis to do something wrong?
Unfortunately, the media doesn’t have a shortage of times where someone who was considered a holy yerei shamayim committed terrible wrongdoings which are completely unbefitting of a ben Torah.
This is especially relevant in a case when many bochurim involved in such acts are indeed people who haven’t spent much of their time in yeshiva learning Torah, so it’s even more understandable that it didn’t have much of an effect on them.
And again, I wasn’t ch”v trying to JUSTIFY what happened by pointing out others who did it, two wrongs don’t make a right. I was trying to make two important points which I elaborated on above.
mod,
Not emesdik. Watch the video.
Indeed, I thought you were commenting on my mentioning that YWN posted “SEVERAL articles” (i.e. three articles). There were indeed more than three bochurim involved.
“People” weren’t offended.
I was referring to these commenters from the news articles:
My voice – “to attack another group in Klal Yisroel for no reason other then to make yourself look not so bad is absolutely despicable.”
Guteyid – @MenachemShmei It wasn’t 3 yrs ago and thats a disgusting thing to say.These people seem quite offended. I don’t understand why it’s DISGUSTING or DESPICABLE to compare one horrific act by some violent youths to some other horrific acts by some violent youths which are actually quite similar in the nature of the events (other than that one was on a much larger scale and involving many more bochurim than the other…)
shlepped in a past event of intense controversy to you as if there’s a connection/to make a connection.
The OP tried to make a claim that these are unique problems of “a Chasidus without a present rebbe”.
The point of my response was:
1) To show that this is not necessarily unique to groups perceived as “chasidus without a present rebbe”.
2) To help give perspective to those who have a easy time finding חסרונות in others but not in themselves.As I have explained at greater length in my previous post.
mod,
How many is several? Just asking
Dictionary definition: “More than two but not many.”
In this case: Three.
Not emesdik. Watch the video.
your intent was something else I don’texpect from you.
My intent in bringing up Ponevezh is not chas v’shalom just for the sake of bashing other Jews or saying lashon hara.
Unfortunately, human nature is that we are quick to notice faults in others while ignoring faults in ourselves. Therefore, many will rush to say that the entire Lubavitch movement is problematic due to the wild actions of some young people who consider themselves Lubavitch but don’t represent Lubavitch, while they completely ignore that their own community may suffer from the very same issue of the existence of wild, radical, violent groups of extremist young people.
The very fact that so many people were perfectly fine with the Lubavitch coverage, yet were so offended by my mentioning what happened in Ponevezh really proves this point.
Incorrect conclusion. “People” weren’t offended. You took a comment about something current and, instead of responding to it, shlepped in a past event of intense controversy to you as if there’s a connection/to make a connection. When there is current coverage of animalistic behavior of others, r”l, it is expected as it is current coverage.
This also answers the claim of the OP that this issue is specific to Lubavitch due to the “chasidus without a present rebbe”-status (so to speak), by pointing out that communities that don’t necessarily fit this narrative can suffer from the same issues.
I still don’t fully understand why people are so shocked by my insinuating that YWN would cover brawls in other Jewish sects, but covering Lubavitch doesn’t bother them.
P.S. I’m not necessarily pro publicizing these things. I’m just not understanding the seeming double standard.
Im not pro publicizing much at all –
mod, You seem to be keyed in to Ponevezh
Yup, I think it’s a great example that the litvisher posters can relate to.
(Interesting that you don’t point out how many people seem keyed in to Lubavitch)
people ask because they have questions, your intent was something else I don’texpect from you.
P.S. I’m honestly curious as to the rationale why YWN didn’t cover the terrible fights in Ponevezh, Gur, etc. which were much much worse (and were anyways covered widely by the media), but fully covered this 770 story with several articles and dozens of videos, when it was just a case of vandalism by several bochurim and an altercation with police.
How many is several? Just asking
It’s become the wild West.
Becoming the wild west? Or something wild happened there a few days ago when about a dozen wild boys tried breaking a wall?
How many yeshivos did this not happen with?
Just look at YWN, and you’ll find many cases of vandalism by wild yeshiva bochurim in all kinds of yeshivos. And there are many more not reported by YWN (such as the riots in Ponevezh in 5781).You seem to be keyed in to Ponevezh
The unfortunate thing is that for סיבות שונות ומשונות, this story made an uproar in the news.
Indeed, there are no radical extremists in the groups who have living Rebbes, there are no fights among those chassidim, police are never called to stop wild young bochurim from those sects.
There are never fights in Ponevezh where they have living gedolim and roshei yeshiva.
These things only happen in sects without a rebbe living physically.
lol
do yidden have nothing else to worry about in 2024 except saying “happy holidays”? Gosh, too much time on your hands.
I missed the part where someone said that we have “nothing else to worry about” except this interesting and relevant question about what is halachically permissible at this time of year, and if there is an issue of עבודה זרה or אביזרייהו (based on the halachos in שלחן ערוך יורה דעה סי’ קמח ס”ט).
Story of Berdichiver and L Rebbe wishing Yidden new year is interesting, do you know more of their motivation?
Not exactly sure.
Though I feel it’s necessary to point out an incident pointing in the other direction:Someone once ended a December letter with “We hope that the coming year will be a successful and fruitful one!”
The Rebbe circled “coming year” and wrote (you can find a picture in his handwriting online):
!?
התחיל כבר בר”הmost of the material appears to be not Alter Rebbe
As for the link above. I can’t open it with my filter and there is no siman 148 in the SA Harav (what is the summary?)
The link is a bit misleading, I should have clarified:
Shulchanaruchharav. com is a website with thousands of halacha articles on various subjects, not necessarily based on Shulchan Aruch Harav.This is what it says there (there are also lengthy references in the footnotes which I didn’t bring):
May one wish a merry Chris-mas, or happy holidays, to a gentile acquaintance or neighbor?
Merry chris-mass:[6] The term Chris-mas is not to be mentioned, due to the prohibition against mentioning the name of idols.
Other greetings: If the gentile does not believe in the religious connotations behind the holiday, then there is no prohibition to mention to him “Happy Holidays.”[7] If, however, the gentile believes in the idolatry related content behind Christmas, seemingly, one may only do so in a pressing situation, to avoid enmity.[8] Certainly one should not go out of one’s way to greet him and send him Holiday wishes, such as through social media, unless lack of doing so will cause enmity. In all cases that one meets a gentile acquaintance outside who is a practicing Christian, he is to greet him with a low voice, as stated above.
May one wish others a happy New Years on the 1st of January?[9]
There is no prohibition involved in wishing a happy New Years to a gentile who does not affiliate the day with any Christian connotations or worship of a deity.[10] One is to avoid wishing a happy New Years to a practicing Christian [particularly Catholics, and Lutherans] who believes in the Christian doctrine behind the New Year’s Holiday.[11] However, even in such a case, one may do so in a pressing situation, in order to avoid causing enmity and anti-Semitism.[12] Certainly one should not go out of one’s way to greet him and send him Holiday wishes, such as through social media, unless lack of doing so will cause enmity. In all cases that one meets a gentile acquaintance outside who is a practicing Christian and believes in the holiday of New Years, he is to greet him with a low voice, as stated above. [In general, it is not customary of Jews to wish other Jews a Happy new year on the first of January.[13] However, it is related, that Rebbe Levi Yitzchak of Berditchiv would wish others a Happy new year on the 1st of January. Likewise, the Rebbe once wished a Chassid a happy new years on the morning of January first, in continuation of the tradition from Rebbe Levi Yitzchak.[14] This is based on the verse in psalms 87:6 ““Hashem Yispor Bichsov Amim..”]
It was actually a day of death destruction of jews in ‘honor’ of the god january is named after. See Rabbi L. Keleman’s lecture on TorahAnytime
I was gonna point this out.
It’s a shiur worth listening to
Great halachic overview regarding wishes on Kratzmach and New Years here:
https://shulchanaruchharav. com/halacha/may-one-wish-holiday-greetings-to-gentiles-merry-chris-mass-happy-holidays/
Bava Kama discusses the right height for skilah to make it most comfortable – given the circumstances. so, ahava applies to everyone
אָמַר רַב נַחְמָן אָמַר רַבָּה בַּר אֲבוּהּ, אָמַר קְרָא: ״וְאָהַבְתָּ לְרֵעֲךָ כָּמוֹךָ״ – בְּרוֹר לוֹ מִיתָה יָפָה.
See יד רמ”ה סנהדרין נב,ב:
אמר קרא ואהבת לרעך כמוך וכל היכא דכתיב רעך משמע ישראל ואפי’ רשע שנתחייב מיתה אתה חייב לחזר אחר זכותו לברור לו מיתה יפהFor halachic sources on the matter, see here, note 17:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16025&st=&pgnum=230Exactly, so you are not going to take advantage of the nonJew in any way, even when it is possible al pi din – say, he makes a mistake.
Very true and important message.
Interesting to note from today’s Rambam (הלכות גניבה פ”ז ה”ח):
אֶחָד הַנּוֹשֵׂא וְהַנּוֹתֵן עִם יִשְׂרָאֵל אוֹ עִם עַכּוּ”ם אִם מָדַד אוֹ שָׁקַל בְּחָסֵר עוֹבֵר עַל לֹא תַּעֲשֶׂה וְחַיָּב לְהַחְזִיר. וְכֵן אָסוּר לְהַטְעוֹת אֶת הָעַכּוּ”ם בְּחֶשְׁבּוֹן אֶלָּא יְדַקְדֵּק עִמּוֹ שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (ויקרא כה נ) “וְחִשַּׁב עִם קֹנֵהוּ” אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהוּא כָּבוּשׁ תַּחַת יָדֶיךָ. קַל וָחֹמֶר לְעַכּוּ”ם שֶׁאֵינוֹ כָּבוּשׁ תַּחַת יָדֶיךָ. וַהֲרֵי הוּא בִּכְלַל (דברים כה טז) “כִּי תוֹעֲבַת ה’ אֱלֹהֶיךָ כָּל עשֵֹׁה אֵלֶּה כּל עשֵֹׁה עָוֶל” מִכָּל מָקוֹם:On the topic of a goy’s value in serving Hashem:
The Gemara says (Sanhedrin 3a): אפילו נכרי ועוסק בתורה שהוא ככהן גדול
A goy who learns Torah (referring to Torah about Sheva Mitzvos) is like a kohen gadol!
Meiri: מכבדין אותו אפילו ככהן גדול(However, a Jew who learns Torah is GREATER than a kohen gadol -Tosfos)
When Moshiach comes, the Rambam writes (הלכות מלכים ספי”ב): לא יהי’ עסק כל העולם אלא לדעת את השם בלבד ולפיכך יהיו ישראל חכמים גדולים.
The occupation of the ENTIRE WORLD (goyim) will only be the knowledge of Hashem, and the Yidden will have a deeper understanding.I wonder how all of these theories affect our behavior.
Hopefully, the idea that we are the purpose of creation should cause us to realize that as Jews our every single מחשבה דיבור ומעשה has infinite value and affects the entire cosmos. This is a tremendous privilege and responsibility, which is why we must try to put lots of thought into everything that we do: Is this really appropriate from someone who is the purpose of creation and the entire universe is being created for him to behave this way right now?
the Mishna in Sanhedrin disagrees with you [that every Jew will merit Olam Habah]. It lists the people who don’t get a portion in Olam Habah.
This is a complex and lengthy topic that deserves its own thread.
But see this letter which proves this idea with many sources, and answers regarding the mishna Sanhedrin:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15875&st=&pgnum=174myvoice: If a fellow lit your house on fire, and then had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process his life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
yankel: If a fellow’s grandfather lit your house on fire, and then his grandson had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process the grandsons life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
Yankel, you took the words out of my mouth.
Honestly, I think that myvoice admits this at the end of his post:
Understandably, this only refers to the Zionist army as an institution, if one knows a soldier and would like to pray for him, such behavior is definitely warranted.Myvoice, I possibly agree with you on this. The more generalized institution of the “state” may be deeply flawed, which is why I wouldn’t hang the Zionist flag or sing their anthem.
However, the Jewish soldiers, Jewish teens straight out of school or yeshiva, who are currently giving their lives for protection of fellow Jews deserve our greatest admiration, respect, gratitude, and tefillos.
What difference does it make what was the ideology of the people who created the government which organized these troops?The Zionist army, its shmad, and all the rest, are all against the Shulchan Aruch. Obviously, for Jews to defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch is not in question. But the Zionist army is a non-starter.
Hakatan, stop throwing around these buzzwords and explain yourself.
Are you saying that you have ideological problems with most people in the army? (I do too)
Are you saying that you feel that the general approach of the government in the “state of Israel” is antithetical to Yiddishkeit? (I do too)But what does that mean practically in relevance to the soldiers fighting?
What you mean that Jews must “defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch… but the Zionist army is a non-starter”?
Are you suggesting that we should establish some sort of shomrim brigade to enter Gaza and fight in competition to the army?
Similar to how the arabs (l’havdil) have Hamas and Islamic Jihad competing with each other?Over here the regular citizens are at risk. as well… So why would you question a Psak of the Godol HaDor to pray for the welfare of the entire Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel?
Again, I didn’t see the video. I’m am just wondering about the reasoning for a psak din that you quoted.
I think we should definitely pray for the welfare of the entire Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel.
The very fact that you specified “in Eretz Yisroel” is because you recognize that they are currently in a more obvious state of danger than other parts of Klal Yisroel around the world, which is why we should do extra tefillos for them.
Similarly, the soldiers are currently in a more obvious and imminent danger than regular civilians in Eretz Yisroel (to claim otherwise would be ludicrous), which is why we should especially have them in mind in our tefillos.And the fact that they are putting their lives on the line to protect millions of other Jewish lives (in accordance with Shulchan Aruch) is all the more of a reason to daven extra for them.
One of my rebbeim sent a letter to the last Lubavitcher rebbe, asking him about good goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos; if their neshoma is still from klipos tamaeos (שאין להם צד טוב כלל), like the tanya says in perek 1.
He who wrote back to him quoting a sefer in chabad as saying that the neshomos of chasidei umos haolam have the same shoresh as that of yidden, though the neshoma itself is vastly different.Is this the letter that you’re referring to?
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15875&st=&pgnum=56(Also discussed in the Rebbe’s notes on שיעורים בספר התניא:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19841&st=&pgnum=53&hilite=)what do shluchim do in Russia or Muslim countries or in EY?
Shluchim in Russia do Julian, if I’m not mistaken.
EY does Gregorian.
Muslim countries: Not sure what their minhag is l’poel.
From here it’s implied that they don’t do nittel at all:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4615&st=&pgnum=360Hakatan,
I’m still wondering: Do you believe that it’s a halachic obligation for soldiers to go out with weapons and fight to defend cities where Jews live?
If not, how do you explain שלחן ערוך או”ח הלכות שבת סי’ שכט where it says that even on SHABBOS, even in CHUTZ L’ARETZ, even if the enemies only come to STEAL STRAW & HAY (in a border city) – we are obligated to take arms and fight?
Did everyone see the video of HaGaon HaRav Aharon Feldman shlit”a asking a shaila to Maran HaGaon HaRav Moshe Shternbuch shlit”a whether Yidden should pray for the soldiers? Rav Shternbuch paskened that we should rather pray for the welfare of all of Klal Yisroel.
I didn’t see it. What was the rationale for this psak halacha? What’s the source in Shulchan Aruch?
UJM, If I was at home with my family and we had a burglar in the basement, and you went downstairs with a knife to confront him and protect my family, I would DEFINITELY add extra tefillos for you – regardless of your ideology.
This is in addition to the simple fact that tefillos seem to be more necessary for someone who is in greater danger than for one who’s in lesser danger, and the soldiers are obviously in greater danger than other citizens.
Unless you are lubavich or belorussian litvish.
In any case, the Lubavitcher shita is to follow Nittel Nacht based on where one currently resides, so most Lubavitchers do Gregorian.
Excerpt from Rebbe’s letter:
ב) נ’ לפענ”ד שזמנו ע”פ הלוח היוליאני, שהוא ע”פ חשבון תקופת שמואל [ולא ע”פ הלוח הגריגוריאני, שהוא ע”פ תקופת ר’ אדא (אף שהוא מדויק יותר)], כיון שעפ”ז הוא חשבון התקופה בברכת החמה ועוד. – אבל י”ל שכיון שיוצא מהכלל ענין ניטל שקביעותו לא ע”פ מנין בנ”י אלא ע”פ מנין או”ה, א”כ יש להתחשב עם מנין או”ה הנוהג במקום דוקא, וכן אומרים בשם כ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר שבארצה”ב אמר לנהוג הנ”ל ע”פ מנין המדינה כאן.From another letter:
ע”פ מה שכתבתי ל… נראה לי שבכל מדינה יש לנהוג בהנ”ל ע”פ לוח האינם יהודים שבמדינתם, ואם יש ביניהם מנהגים שונים בזה, לנהוג בהנ”ל בלילה שאז חוגגים רוב האינם יהודים, ז. א. באותה הלילה שנתקבלה על רוב האינם יהודים, כי הרי ענין דאזלינן בתר רובא שייך גם באינם יהודים, וכדמוכח בסוגיא דאזלינן בתר רובא, ועוד ראיות ואכ”מ.You can’t compare the legitimate kingdom of Dovid HaMelech with the “band of thugs that descended there”, to quote the Brisker Rav.
Are you purposely ignoring the halacha in Shulchan Aruch that I quoted?
X’mas day as either a religious or secular holiday and a day off from work, it is newly found time for limud torah (versus playing chess or video games).
To the best of my knowledge, the minhag of playing chess etc. is specifically during the night (until chatzos), not xmas day (hence the name nittel nacht, not nittel tog)…
the Jews who did survive those wars – that’s due to the lomdei and shmorei Torah and not the Zionists.
If you mean that the Jews didn’t survive due to the Zionist SHITA – this may indeed be true.
If you mean that Jews didn’t survive due to Zionist PEOPLE – i.e. the soldiers – this is equivalent to saying that your family doesn’t survive due to your financial support.
The ruchnius of a war is fought by those sitting in yeshiva learning, and the physical war is won by the soldiers fighting with physical weapons.
אילמלא דוד לא עשה יואב מלחמה ואילמלא יואב לא עסק דוד בתורה
Were it not for David, [who studied Torah,] Joab would not have been able to wage war successfully, and were it not for [the military acumen] of Joab, David would not have been able to study Torah.
(סנהדרין מט,א)Going to war to protect Jewish cities (in Eretz Yisroel or in chutz laaretz) is a HALACHIC OBLIGATION even on Shabbos!
If it’s a border city, we must go to war on Shabbos even if the enemy just came to steal some STRAW!!! How much more so if they came to kill 1000﬩ r”l!שלחן ערוך אורח חיים סי’ שכט ס”ו-ז:
עכו”ם שצרו על עיירות ישראל אם באו על עסק ממון אין מחללין עליהם את השבת באו על עסק נפשות ואפי’ סתם יוצאים עליהם בכלי זיין ומחללים עליהם את השבת ובעיר הסמוכה לספר אפילו לא באו אלא על עסקי תבן וקש מחללין עליהם את השבת: הגה ואפילו לא באו עדיין אלא רוצים לבא [א”ז]: יש מי שאומר שבזמן הזה אפי’ באו על עסקי ממון מחללין שאם לא יניחנו ישראל לשלול ולבוז ממונו יהרגנו והוי עסקי נפשות [ומ”מ הכל לפי הענין] (פסקי מהרי”א סי’ ק”כ):
Regarding non-Jews who besiege Jewish cities: if they come for money, we do not desecrate the Shabbat [to protect ourselves], but if they came to kill or come with no presented reason, we go out with weapons and desecrate the Shabbat. In a city that is near the border, even if they just come for straw or hay, we desecrate the Shabbat. Rem”a: Even if they haven’t come but they want to come (Or Zarua). There is one who says that in our times, even if they come for money, we desecrate the Shabbat, because if we do not allow them to plunder the money, they will kill, and so it becomes a case of saving life. (In any event, everything is according to the situation(Piskei Mahara’i Chapter 156).)The Zionist “State” will be history, probably much sooner rather than later.
Amen, speedily, with the coming of the TRUE leader of Klal Yisroel – melech hamoshiach, followed by the TRUE kibbutz goliyos.Ubiquitin,
You hit the nail on the head!
I would add: Would you want to be used as a “Shabbos Goy”?”
sure, especially when it comes with a glass of whiskey and a slice of hallee bread for my french toast.Hmm… Why is the OP quoting a Rambam and possuk making people nervous?…
We should use this thread as an opportunity to thank Hashem for the opportunity to live in a country that allows all ethnic groups to live freely according to their cultures and religions, thus allowing us Jews to live as proud frum Yidden in USA without any persecution or government interference (for the most part).
In the early years of the American Jewish community, many Jews thought that it would be impossible to do this. We would have to assimilate ch”v and live like the goyim, keeping our Yiddishkeit to the bare minimum. Even if keeping basic halacha, we would have to speak and dress and live like the goyim around us ch”v.
Yet, Hashem has allowed us to prosper as an authentic Jewish community even in modern America.
As the Rebbe Rayatz proclaimed when he came to America (to the shock and disbelief of many of his modernized American supporters): “אמריקא איז נישט אנדערש”Menachem isn’t Chassidus sourced from a higher level than Kabbalah? Yechidah vs Sod?
Discussed in קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=58874&st=&pgnum=268&hilite=it a bunch of idiots who took it upon themself, and yes in your face never was a yiddisher middah, WE ARE IN GOLUS AND LETS BEHAVE THAT WAY
The Rebbe addresses your discomfort with the change in the derech here:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16076&st=&pgnum=354try and emulate the chabadsker who were around in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, you have a lot to learn from them.
Mitzva tanks, rooftop menorahs and public menoras started in the 70s (with the Rebbe’s encouragement).
Tefillin in the streets was started (by the Rebbe) in the 60s.
Lag B’Omer parades were started in the 40s (by the Rebbe).
he wouldn’t advise six year olds to close their Gemaras and study Arizal.
Factual correction for readers who may think that there’s truth in what Qwerty is writing. Let’s break this down:
“study Arizal”
Chabad yeshivos don’t teach kabbalah (Arizal, Zohar, etc.).
They do teach chassidus (the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, Baal HaTanya, etc.) – much of which is based on kabbalistic teachings, but taught in a way that is meant to be more understood for the common folk (with a proper teacher and background).“six year olds”
The average Chabad yeshiva begins teaching chassidus to bochurim who are about 15 years old or older. Before that, they only learn Gemara, Mishnayos, Chumash, halacha, etc.“close their Gemaras”
The average Chabad yeshiva (15 years old and up) has about six hours a day of Gemara and three hours of chassidus (as well as halacha, Chitas/Rambam, sichos, etc.)Let’s not get into this endless topic which has merited countless posts in the CR.
Make another thread for it.Is flag such a goyishe idea? Shvatim had flags.
Flags themselves are not the issue (at the Chabad Lag B’Omer parade, there was usually an American flag, Tzivos Hashem flag and Mesibos Shabbos flag).
The zionist flag however was made specifically as part of a general movement to create a secular brand of Judaism, the flag is part of the symbols that we can be ככל הגויים ch”v.Now we have a group of American Jews who want to tell Israel how it should be run.
It is the obligation of every Jew, especially a majorly influential Jew, to do everything in his or her power to ensure the spiritual safety and physical safety of the Jewish people anywhere in the world, especially in Eretz Yisroel which is every Jew’s homeland.
During times like these we need some kind of public display that’s a symbol . What would you suggest we use?
Authentic Jewish symbols which have been our symbols for thousands of years. מצוינים במצוות.
This week – a menorah.
Generally: Tefillin, Mezuza, Tzitzis, Shabbos candles, etc.Judaism is not the language we speak, the flag we wave, the land that we live in, or the falafel that we eat.
The more we wave the flag, the more we fool people that this secular, nationalistic, cultural nonsense makes them more Jewish.
The world must know that their Jewish identity is ONLY EXPRESSED through the tools that Hashem gave us to express our identity – Torah and mitzvos.
Those who use a flag say היינו ככל הגוים (ch”v); if the Americans, Italians, French, etc. express their identity through a flag and a culture, why can’t we?
The answer is that we are completely different than any nationality. We are not just another nation with nice rituals and cultures that hold us together, rather a nation chosen by Hashem to serve Him in the way that He decided. Only those mitzvos should be used to express what makes us special as a nation.
Just found a (English) letter from the Rebbe about this subject which I thought would be interesting.
Here’s an excerpt (you can find the whole thing on Chabad dot org):
“…Now, to come to the essential point. Why is it so important for Jews to have a Chanukah Menorah displayed publicly? The answer is that experience has shown that the Chanukah Menorah displayed publicly during the eight days of Chanukah, has been an inspiration to many, many Jews and evoked in them a spirit of identity with their Jewish people and the Jewish way of life. To many others it has brought a sense of pride in their Yiddeshkeit, and the realization that there is no reason, really, in this free country, to hide one’s Jewishness, as if it were contrary or inimical to American life and culture. On the contrary, it is fully in keeping with the American national slogan “e pluribus unum” and the fact that American culture has been enriched by the thriving ethnic cultures which contributed very much, each in its own way, to American life, both materially and spiritually.
Certainly, Jews are not in the proselytizing business. The Chanukah Menorah is not intended to, and can in no way, bring us converts to Judaism. But it can, and does, bring many Jews back to their Jewish roots. I personally know of scores of such Jewish returnees, and I have good reason to believe that in recent years, hundreds, even thousands, of Jews experience a kindling of their inner Jewish spark by the public kindling of the Chanukah Menorah in their particular city and in the nation’s capitol, etc., as publicized by the media.
In summary, Jews, either individually or communally, should not create the impression that they are ashamed to show their Jewishness, or they wish to gain their neighbors’ respect by covering up their Jewishness. Nor will this attitude insure their rights to which they are entitled, including the privilege of publicly lighting a Chanukah Menorah, a practice which has been sanctioned by the precedent and custom, as to become a tradition.
I also must point out that I do not think that a Jewish community can disregard its responsibility to other Jewish communities in regard to an issue of kind, which cannot remain localized, and must have its impact on other Jewish communities and community relations.
With esteem and blessing,
M. Schneerson
P.S. I trust you are aware of other instances involving Jewish practices in public, such as wearing a beard by Jewish servicemen in the U.S. military, wearing a Yarmulka in a court of law, etc., which Jews insisted upon, and won as their inalienable rights. Further information, if desired, may be obtained from the pertinent Jewish organizations, such as COLPA and others.
…It is difficult to imagine that after what had happened in Hitler Germany, some Jews will still entertain the idea that making themselves as inconspicuous as possible, concealing their Jewishness, they would gain favor with their gentile neighbors, whereas the opposite view is more widely recognized. Besides, antisemitism and prejudice require no outside causes. However, to expand on this topic here would be too much of a digression from our main subject.”
common, do you wear a yarmulke when you’re out in the street or do you cover it with a baseball cap (which is perfectly permissible halachically)?
Personally, I wear a yarmulke because I feel that the pros of showing off my Yiddishkeit and the inspiration that other Jews derive from this (I have been approached MANY times in the street by Jews who just see me walking with a yarmulka or hat and want to learn more about Judaism) outweigh the cons of the possible hate or anger that it may arouse.
Given the punchings and other attacks recently in neighborhoods like Flatbush and Golders Green, do you think the time has come for us to begin hiding our Jewish appearance in public?
Chaim,
I agree with most of what you wrote, but I would still disagree about the flag.
The very issue with the flag was that zionist nationalism was being seen as a replacement for authentic Judaism. Our flag is Torah and mitzvos, not some symbol of a secular government.The fact that it’s seen as a “more general symbol representing the jewish people” is exactly what the Rebbe was afraid of. We already have 613 flags of Judaism (“מצוינים במצות”), no need to add secular ones to the bunch.
Yesterday Menachem Shmei said
Qwerty, we already went through this topic at length in the past, no need to rehash it in this thread.
You claimed that I tried convincing you of something, and you haven’t been able to show me one post where I’ve done so. Don’t fall back on your classic rhetoric.
I’m still waiting for you to either find me a post where I tried convincing you, or retract what you said.