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Did my post last night to “Chabad Media” go through? About nevuah?
Lubavitche that are engaged in idol worship. They just know that some Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is alive, but they have no clue that they worship him like an idol
the prevalence of praying to, instead of to God – to the late habad leader
If you repeat this lie enough times you will probably convince some people to believe you, but that doesn’t change the facts that this is completely false slander and הוצאת שם רע on a part of Klal Yisroel, Hashem yerachem.
It is insane how some evil people who seek to spread hate and מחלוקת among Klal Yisroel have succeeded in having their lies seep in so much.
Fandango,
Are you saying that the Democratic Party (Biden, Harris, Schumer, Obama, etc.) doesn’t actually pressure Israel to ease its fight against our enemies and show ‘mercy’ to the ‘poor Palestinians,’ ch”v, with all kinds of bogus ‘peace’ attempts that only encourage the terrorists to fight more whenever they sense weakness?
They prey on ignorant Jews with their missionizing, people who didn’t have proper Jewish education, and try to convince them that they are normative Orthodox Judaism, which is far from the truth.
I pray that you never need to use their “missionizing services” for a family member who lost their way (I don’t mean physically, as this is not Chabad’s true goal).
If ch”v you would be in that situation, oy, how you would regret these words!Menachem Shmei is even worse. He continually challenged me to answer his holy question calling me a liar for ducking the question. I told him several times that no such question was ever asked so he should ask me again. Like the coward he is, he dropped the subject.
See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.
It’s in clear and simple English.
[It was a long post, and was already posted twice, so I don’t think it’s fair to the readers to copy paste it all over again.]
Unlocked remotely by a centralized committee? Why can’t you just unlock it yourself?
That may also be an option; however, some might argue that it’s irresponsible for a committee to mass distribute weapons to people who lack proper experience and training. There’s a risk that someone might mistakenly use it on a burglar with children around or during a pro-Palestinian protest or something similar.
Having a central system can help ensure that the weapon is only used in true emergencies when the entire neighborhood requires protection.
1) Being a Lubavitcher in the YWNCR.
2) Every Jewish home in frum neighborhoods should have a rifle locked in a safe that can be unlocked remotely by a centralized committee, to be used in case of a riot or pogrom initiated by the alt-right if, ch”v, something catastrophic happens (e.g., Trump being assassinated by a liberal Jew) and figures like Nick, Candace, Andrew, Tucker, or Alex give the signal to incite violence similar to the Crown Heights riots (or George Floyd protests), but this time by members of the NRA. The police may not come to protect, and the difference between an unarmed neighborhood and a (even slightly) armed neighborhood is significant.
The frum oilom is EXTREMELY susceptible to propaganda and fake news.
This is nonsense!
Just yesterday I read on a frum news whatsapp group that statistics show the Jews are the least gullible ethnic group in NYC!Everything here was discussed already in previous threads. All just a bunch of foaming at the mouth (perhaps from both sides).
Nice to see that there’s always a Chabad thread (or threads) active.
This morning I made a simple request to Menachem Shmei to actually formulate a question which I’ll try to answer. Shmei cites my request and continues to call me a liar for not answering his non-existent question(s). This is bordering on schizophrenia territory.
See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.
It’s in clear and simple English.
[It was a long post, and was already posted twice, so I don’t think it’s fair to the readers to copy paste it all over again.]
I looked at the post and I don’t understand your question. I don’t read Yiddish. You have a very good command of English so formulate a question and I’ll try to answer it.
Qwerty, you will lie, lie, and lie to escape the fundamental question that I asked you a dozen times, and formulated beautifully and clearly in English in the aforementioned post.
As I said before, I probably won’t get you to retract your terrible false accusations and מוציא שם רע because you don’t seem to be looking for the truth (though you claim to have an unmatched “logic and love of truth,” neither of which are showing in your posts) but the truth seeking readers will see through your nonsense.
Yankel,
To clarify: I completely agree with your interpretation of all the quotes. However, it is obvious to anyone (who isn’t trying to prove negative things) that the Rebbe meant it exactly as they all meant it.
It is clear that he is referring to the NON LITERAL MEANING of being davuk to God . Not as God Himself chvsh.
You understand all of the quotes I referenced unliterally, only the Rebbe’s quote you take to have the literal meaning, yet you claim to have no preconceived notions!?!?
Again, I must by moiche on Qwerty being allowed to refer to a tzaddik b’Yosroel and tremendous talmid chochom with terms that are definitely not considered respectful dialogue.
Especially as he has not not been able to provide any basis for his slanderous claims.עָוֹן גָּדוֹל הוּא לְבַזּוֹת תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים אוֹ לִשְׂנאוֹתָן. לֹא חָרְבָה יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, עַד שֶׁבִּזּוּ בָהּ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר, וַיִהְיוּ מַלְעִיבִים בְּמַלְאֲכֵי הָאֱלֹהִים וּבוֹזִים דְּבָרָיו וּמִתַּעְתְּעִים בִּנְבִיאָיו, כְּלוֹמַר, בּוֹזִים מְלַמְּדֵי דְבָרָיו. וְכֵן זֶה שֶׁאָמְרָה תוֹרָה, וְאִם בְּחֻקֹּתַי תִּמְאָסוּ, מְלַמְּדֵי חֻקּוֹתַי תִּמְאָסוּ. וְכָל הַמְבַזֶּה אֶת הַחֲכָמִים, אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, וְהוּא בִּכְלַל כִּי דְבַר ה’ בָּזָה. וְאָסוּר לְשַׁמֵּשׁ בְּמִי שֶהוּא שׁוֹנֶה הֲלָכוֹת.
I myself remember hearing [in the early eighties] , from a mekor ne’eman that R Salamon zatsal [mashgiah of BMG] , convened a closed meeting in 1967[!] about his concern about the utterances of the habad leader .
1) If this is even true, do we know for a fact that they discussed this sicha, which was said 17 years earlier? If yes, why did they only wake up about it now?
If it was 1967, it is more reasonable to assume that they were discussing the shocking and disturbing chiddush “שלא ראו אבותינו” of the Rebbe encouraging chassidim to put tefillin on non-frum Jews 😲 (which began that year in connection with the war).2) My point was that it was not spoken about much, until it was released in newspaper articles filled with quotes and snippets taken out of context (or worse…) to make Lubavitch look bad to boost the political campaigns of the late 80s…
[Again, reminiscent of the “talmud compilations” that make their way around social media]I never said that Chabad is like any other group, like Ger and like Belz.
I had one point only: Accusing Chabad of AZ is pure slander, מוציא שם רע against an עדה קדושה בישראל to the worst degree.
There is absolutely no basis to this claim, unless one is intentionally trying to misinterpret statements which were equivalent to statements made throughout Torah, as I referenced.
This is no different than the antisemites on the internet who throw together some mistranslated/misinterpreted talmudic passages and make a gevald.“Hashem runs the world and He will take us out of Galus through His shliach the Rebbe.” Now that’s obviously a forced Pshat but for argument’s sake, we’ll accept it. So here’s the question, “Does any other Jewish group(Chassidish, Litvish Sfard you name it) declare their religious leader G-d’s partner?”
I know, it’s crazy to say that a human being is Hashem’s shliach to do something in the world. Almost as crazy as the kofer whom I overheard yesterday saying that he is supporting his family, as if it’s him and not Hashem. As crazy as Kalev saying that MOSHE split the sea, brought down manna, and flew in quail (see Rashi above). Or imagine if Moshe would have called Moshiach “Hashem’s shliach” to take the Jews out of golus (Rashi Shemos 4:13). As if G-d has partners! Pfft!
Qwerty,
You have an annoying habit of accusing me of not answering your questions when in fact no questions were actually posed. You’ve been doing this since I joined YWN, in a feeble attempt to impugn my integrity. I have answered every question sent to me by any poster.
See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.
I have answered every question sent to me by any poster.
I hope you will hold up that habit.
Menachem is a bright guy and he writes well. He debates well and in his mind he wins all the arguments. That may be true. However there’s a referee for all these contests and He’s in Shomayim. He’s not impressed with Shmei’s tricks. We know Him as Hashem and He’s a jealous G-d.
Thanks for the compliments. You’re right, Hashem is the true judge, but thankfully He displays His wisdom in the Torah which I presented to you in the aforementioned post.
P.S. Please try not to get caught up with the last paragraph, and first and foremost, answer the question I posed to you many times over the last year, as in the beginning of this post.
Qwerty,
You keep quoting Rabbi Cunin as if he said that the Rebbe runs the world and NOT HASHEM (ch”v).
This is equivalent to quoting Kalev as having said that Moshe alone split the sea, brought down the manna, and blew in the quail—AND NOT HASHEM (ch”v).
(Rashi, Shlach 13:30, based on Sotah)You are intentionally misinterpreting Chabad statements in order to fit your agenda. This same tactic is quite popular online these days, with antisemites misquoting and misinterpreting passages from the Gemara and halacha, so you’re just jumping on the bandwagon.
Just open the Chumash. Did you see chassidim complaining about the Rebbe the way Jews complained about Moshe? Caze clozed.
They were the misnagdim 😉
You had some Jews against Moshe and others extremely devoted.
Think about Yehoshua, Kalev, the Leviim, etc.I expect that Cardinal Shmei will demand that I answer his challenge and I’ll simply direct him to your post.
Qwerty, you still owe a response to the clear and well founded challenges I gave to your accusations against Chabad.
Unless you would rather stick to name-calling and arguing about who hates you than have a rational discussion about Torah topics.
He told me that the Rebbe often spoke about conquering the world. When Lubavitchers are tots they’re taught this song, “From 770 we are marching out, on to victory there is no doubt, one by one nations we are conquering.”
It’s called לתקן עולם במלכות ש-ד-י.
Maybe the Rebbe was more actively involved in this than other gedolim.Your claim rings similar to the Iranian and American alt-right documentaries about Chabad where they imply from the Rebbe’s sichos about Tzivos Hashem etc. that the Rebbe was secretly mobilizing a global army to fight a war against non-Jews.
Maybe join Candace Owens on her next podcast.Yankel,
Thanks for responding to my post! I appreciate the discussion. However, the points that you made are easily refutable:
A] If one reads the sicha (without preconceived notions and grievances), it is clear that the Rebbe does not hint to himself any more than the other statements I referenced. I challenge you to demonstrate how the sicha implies that the Rebbe was speaking about himself more than the other quotes I brought.
In fact, the sicha was delivered two months after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe (and months before the Rebbe even accepted the nesius), and it discusses why people should visit the ohel to receive brochos from the (Frierdiker) Rebbe, even after he is no longer alive! Given this context, how could the Rebbe have been referring to himself!?
Chabad chassidim may indeed apply these words to the Rebbe, just as the talmidim of Reb Elimelech surely applied his words about tzaddikim to him. However, there is no unique implication that the Rebbe was speaking about himself.
If you believe otherwise, please show me where in the Rebbe’s words this implication is made. If not, you should retract your claim.
[On a side note: You wrote “None of them said anything about themselves.” What about Idra Zuta in Zohar: פתח רבי שמעון ואמר בחד קטירא אתקטרנא ביה בקוב”ה… נשמתי ביה אחידא ביה להיטא.
I understand that tanaim may be different (“כגון אנא”), but just pointing this out for accuracy.]B] I guess there was personal gain for the Rebbe that people wouldn’t bother him for brochos, rather they would go to the Frierdiker Rebbe?
C] This is nonsense, I have never heard any sort of AZ style interpretation from Lubavitchers in this statement, ch”v.
As a matter of fact, this idea (of עצמות אריינגעשטעלט) is quite obscure and almost never mentioned in Chabad circles. This is not a classic topic of discussion.
It is only understood this way and amplified by non-Lubavitchers who are seeking to misinterpret the Rebbe’s words and cause a ruckus.D] This may or may not be true.
Do Lubavitchers really venerate the Rebbe more than the Jews in the desert venerated Moshe Rabbeinu, or the Jews of Eretz Yisroel venerated Shmuel Hanovi and Dovid Hamelech, or the Jews of Persia venerated Mordechai, or the veneration Rashbi received from his students, or the Arizal from his students, or the Baal Shem Tov from his students, or the veneration of the Chasam Sofer for his Rebbe, or the veneration of chassidei Chabad throughout the generations for their rabbeim?
I’m not sure. We’ll have to talk to an unbiased Jewish historian about that.I honestly don’t think that I will convince qwerty, since I have already gone in circles with him in the past.
However, for any readers who didn’t see the discussions in the past, here are my posts from last year:
August 4 2023:
From the 1950s until 1989, no one went crazy about the Rebbe saying and publishing that a rebbe is עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף.
Just as no one went crazy that the Minchas Elazar wrote (דרכי חיים ושלום – מנהגי תענית):
מגודל נשמת הגה”ק הרמ”מ מרימנוב זי”ע כי הקב”ה לקח ד’ אותיות הוי’ כביכול וכרכן בלבוש זשיפיצ”ע ובלבוש ספאדי”ק ומזה נעשה הרבי ר’ מענדילי מרימאנוב
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4692&st=&pgnum=234&hilite=No one went crazy when the Noam Elimelech wrote (about how a tzaddik has power to heal – ואתחנן ד):
אך זאת צריך להבין, מאין הוא להצדיק שיכול לרפאות לחולה ע”י תפילתו ולהמשיך לו חיות שיחי’ האדם, והלא חיותו של הצדיק איננו לעולם, הלא הוא כמקריות והאיך דבר מקרה יכול ליתן חיות לאדם, השי”ת ב”ה וב”ש שהוא חי וקים לעד ולעולמי עולמים וחיותו הוא עצמיות יכול ליתן חיות לאדם המקרי, אבל לא כן האדם שאין חיותו עצמיות. אמנם אין זה כי אם מחמת שהצדיק מדבק עצמו בהש”י ב”ה, ונמצא חיותו דבוק בהחיים הנצחיים העצמיות, והוי ליה חיותו של הצדיק ג”כ עצמיות ונצחיות, כי עצם אל עצם יחד ידובקו, ולכן יש כח ביד הצדיק להמשיך חיות אל החולה.No one went crazy when Rabbeinu Bachya wrote (שמות לג, ז):
מכאן שנקרא משה בשם המיוחד, וכן מצינו שנקרא יעקב בשם אל שנאמר . . . וכן מצינו בשם הצדיק שנקרא בשם המיוחד . . וכן מצינו במלך המשיח שנקרא בשם המיוחד שנאמר וזה שמו אשר יקראו הוי’ צדקנו . . וטעם הדבר בכלם כי הדבק בדבר נקרא על שם הדבר שידבק בו.No one went crazy when the Alter Rebbe wrote in Tanya (ch. 2) that every Jew is literally a part of G-d (quoting from Iyov (as mentioned by Sechel), but in Tanya he adds the word “mamash” – literally).
No one went crazy when Chazal said that the face of the Master Havayeh is R’ Shimon Bar Yochai. Or that “Havayeh in His holy chamber” refers to R’ Yitzchak in the beis midrash of Keisarin.
Of course, like anything in Torah, these statements need explanation and understanding. Go learn the ideas. There is an entire sefer – על הצדיקים (by Rabbi Pewsner) – that explains this topic at length. If you’re interested, go learn it. Don’t start calling thousands of people עובדי ע”ז (ch”v) because their Rebbe’s sefer says something that you don’t understand.
P.S. Again, this has nothing to do with ch”v davening to the Rebbe in shmone esrei, or the other nonsense which does not exist, as I wrote countless times.
This is a 1950s statement which some people decided to pull out in 1989 and misunderstand, in order to push the political agenda of the time.September 2 2023:
Qwerty, you haven’t answered the question that I directed at you SEVEN times.
Shtika Kihoda?
P.S. I asked the question in posts: #2213451 #2216778 #2216863 #2217091 #2218000 #2218095 #2220157
I’ll repeat it again: When Lubavitch said a statement that you understood as AZ at first glance, you immediately attacked Lubavitch, and it didn’t enter your mind that there can be a deeper meaning.
However, you do not attack the Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Zohar, or Yerushalmi – all of whom said similar statements which can also sound like AZ at first glance to an ignorant person.Or, I can ask the question as I wrote it in a different post:
What if I were to say:
“Hashem took the four letters of His holy name (הוי’) and garbed them in a hat and kapoto, and this is the Rebbe…”
Or: “Who is the face of י-ה-ו-ה? The Rebbe.”
Or: “When the posuk says that Hashem is in His holy chamber, this refers to the Rebbe when he’s in shul”
Or: “How can the Rebbe heal people if he is mortal and only G-d can give life? Since a tzaddik is one with G-d, he has the power of infinity since his life is Hashem’s essence, therefore he can give life to a sick person.”Would you also call this AZ even though these are just paraphrased from the aforementioned gedolim?
And if not, why not?From another post:
P.S. For anyone actually interested in the topic and is wondering, “Indeed, what did the Rebbe, Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Yerushalmi and Zohar mean when they wrote all of these surprising statements?” –
I suggest you watch an incredible shiur from Rabbi YY Jacobson on the topic: http://www.theyeshiva dot net/8291
(Although he discusses the general topic with many quotes from gedolim throughout the generations, he indeed doesn’t explicitly quote the Rebbe’s statement. I guess so as not to turn off his litvisher audience)I’m still waiting for qwerty to answer all of the great tzaddikim and holy books that I’ve quoted who say the same thing as Lubavitch yet he doesn’t label them avoda zorah ch”v.
Lubavitchers never said the Rebbe is …. ch”v, rather they said things that were equivalent to statements of many holy people and seforim in the past, however qwerty misconstrues it to sound like AZ ch”v.
I might be wrong for davening in that shul but I have no other choice if I want to daven with a minyan. And if I davened at home my wife would kill me.
I believe avoda zorah is יהרג ואל יעבור
Did you see the films? Many of them are just Kinos coming to life.
The point of Kinos is to read about the many sufferings of the Jewish people and be aroused to teshuva.
However, many of the Kinos are very hard to understand or relate to.These films depict tragedies that have occurred to the Jewish people together with speakers influencing the viewers to add in avodas Hashem.
What is so wrong about this?
From AskTheRav (Chabad):
Halachically one may smoke on fast days. On Tisha B’av one should not smoke. However if one is unfortunately addicted and it is very difficult for him to refrain, he may smoke after Chatzos and in privacy.
משנ”ב סי’ תקנ”ה ס”ק ח וכ”כ בקישו”ע קכד, יד. והעולם נהגו להקל כהאחרונים שהביא שם, וכמה פוסקים התירו אף בליל תשעה באב למי שקשה לו – סידור יעבץ. דע”ת סי’ תקנט. א”א מבוטשאטש סי’ תקסז. מחנה חיים ח”ג סי’ מא. וראה הביאור בזה בזכר יהוסף סי’ קצח ובארוכה ביבי”א ח”א סי’ לג.
This is all aside for the general issues with smoking.
עָוֹן גָּדוֹל הוּא לְבַזּוֹת תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים אוֹ לִשְׂנאוֹתָן. לֹא חָרְבָה יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, עַד שֶׁבִּזּוּ בָהּ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר, וַיִהְיוּ מַלְעִיבִים בְּמַלְאֲכֵי הָאֱלֹהִים וּבוֹזִים דְּבָרָיו וּמִתַּעְתְּעִים בִּנְבִיאָיו, כְּלוֹמַר, בּוֹזִים מְלַמְּדֵי דְבָרָיו. וְכֵן זֶה שֶׁאָמְרָה תוֹרָה, וְאִם בְּחֻקֹּתַי תִּמְאָסוּ, מְלַמְּדֵי חֻקּוֹתַי תִּמְאָסוּ. וְכָל הַמְבַזֶּה אֶת הַחֲכָמִים, אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, וְהוּא בִּכְלַל כִּי דְבַר ה’ בָּזָה. וְאָסוּר לְשַׁמֵּשׁ בְּמִי שֶהוּא שׁוֹנֶה הֲלָכוֹת.
I’m surprised the mods allow posters to disparage a gadol b’Yisroel in such a manner. I assumed a certain level of respect was expected even for a gadol whom one disagrees with.
There are Jews who I strongly disagree with, yet since I know that they are greatly respected and looked up to by their followers in the CR, I wouldn’t dream of using this platform to write terrible things (especially lies and slander) about them. If ch”v I did, I would hope that it would be censored by the mods.
I guess this feeling isn’t mutual. Oh well.
Several months ago, I decided not to vote because Trump seemed unhinged and angry at the entire world (including Israel), and Biden also wasn’t too pro-Israel.
However, recent events have changed my mind. Harris is clearly dangerously anti-Israel and Trump seems much more moderate and pro-Israel then he did last year, so now I will definitely vote for him.
It’s very interesting that your screen name is Sechel being that חב״ד comes from the ראשי תיבות of חכמה בינה ודעת, (what נוסח ספרד says at אתה חונן) whereas נוסח אשכנז says דעה בינה והשכל the is be of the differences is השכל which נוסח ספרד (or in your case אר״י) which is your screen name
In other words חב״ד doesn’t use שכלIt’s unfortunate that you spent time creating this vort.
The ten kochos hanefesh are split into two categories: שכל and מדות.
שכל is made up of חכמה בינה דעת
מדות is made up of חג”ת נהי”מThus, this purim torah doesn’t even begin to work. Try something else.
Qwerty,
You keep mocking how I ran away from questions.
I literally answered dozens of your posts, and the thread you mentioned continued until it was closed by the moderator because of YOUR posts.
Your posts now continue to be filled with absolute nonsense and hate speech, denouncing entire groups of Jews as heretics and liars.
You come up with the most ridiculous taanos (shoes at the ohel, etc.). I’m honestly surprised that the other non Lubavitchers on this thread don’t try to distance themselves from you.
I have stopped answering your bogus arguments because
א קאפ קען מען ניט ארויפשטעלןNow you can go ahead and write “checkmate” for the umpteenth time. The equivalent of a child who covers his ears screaming “blah blah blah, I won, I won!”
Gemara says Moshiach can come from the dead. The Chofetz Chaim paskened otherwise/
Doesn’t really make much of a difference, but just curious where?
A year ago I was fighting Chabad on line
You’re a brave man qwerty, a brave man.
Sam,
As others have pointed out, while from the drowning Egyptians it would seem improper to celebrate, there other Gemaros that imply otherwise, so stop spitting out blanket issurim.
Here is the Gemara that Pekak referred to:
Megilla 16a:
אֲמַר לֵיהּ: סַק וּרְכֹב. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: לָא יָכֵילְנָא, דִּכְחִישָׁא חֵילַאי מִימֵי תַּעֲנִיתָא. גְּחֵין וּסְלֵיק. כִּי סָלֵיק, בְּעַט בֵּיהּ. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: לָא כְּתִיב לְכוּ: ״בִּנְפֹל אוֹיִבְךָ אַל תִּשְׂמָח״? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: הָנֵי מִילֵּי בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל, אֲבָל בְּדִידְכוּ כְּתִיב: ״וְאַתָּה עַל בָּמוֹתֵימוֹ תִדְרוֹךְ״.Haman then said to him: Mount the horse and ride. Mordecai said to him: I am unable, as my strength has waned from the days of fasting that I observed. Haman then stooped down before him and Mordecai ascended on him. As he was ascending the horse, Mordecai gave Haman a kick. Haman said to him: Is it not written for you: “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls” (Proverbs 24:17)? Mordecai said to him: This statement applies only to Jews, but with regard to you it is written: “And you shall tread upon their high places” ( Deuteronomy 33:29).
I thought Trump’s ear was pierced because he wanted to do another term of serving the nation.
Without a rebbe, chabad continues to fall into disarray even in its basic rabbinic functions. Recently, a bunch of rabbis broke off from the Crown Heights Beis Din and made their own kashrus agency, which now certifies Shor Habor, a meat company which i anyways avoided due to the possibility of god-in-a-body worshippers doing the shechitah.
What do politics involving a Badatz have anything to do with the Rebbe? The Rebbe never ran the Crown Heights Beis Din!
Even before gimmel Tammuz there were incidents of politics between Chabad mosdos, and the Rebbe refused to get involved in the nitty gritty fighting because he said it’s not his job. A Rebbe isn’t a rosh hakahal who gets involved in people’s arguments. That’s what a din torah is for.
Are there no other kashrus politics or controversies happening right now besides for in Lubavitch!?
Are there no controversies or politics in any other Jewish communities which HAVE “living rebbes/rabbanim”!?
The Chofetz Chaim demanded Mashiach?! Do you have a source for that?
Sigh. It’s amazing how much Lubavitchers need to go in circles on this topic.
Chofetz Chaim on siddur, סימן קסח:
כמה פעמים ביום אנו מבקשים על הגאולה, אולם הבקשה בלבד אינה מספקת, יש לתבוע את הגאולה כפועל שכיר המבקש את שכרו, שהדין הוא שאם אינו תובע אין חיוב לתת את שכרו בו ביום. כן אנו צריכים לתבוע את גאולתנו(For more about the Chofetz Chaim himself doing this, open חפץ חיים על התורה to the index “Moshiach” or “Geula” (I don’t have it in front of me). You will find several stories written by his student of the Chofetz Chaim’s intense demanding of the Geula.)
That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.
ARSo, I’m very curious. How exactly does this play out?
Like you’re on the subway or in shul or walking down the street, and a Lubavitcher bochur/yungerman/woman/child approaches you, strikes up conversation, and says: “By the way, I assume you know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach, because the Rambam says….”
Is that what happens?
Or are you the one who usually brings it up, asking a Lubavitcher, “Are you one of those guys who believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach? Why? What’s your proof?”
Because while I’ve seen the latter take place COUNTLESS times, I have never witnessed the former take place (and I’ve participated in MANY “hafatza” missions to non-Lubavitch shuls and yeshivos), and I wonder how common it really is in the last 20 years or so.
A third is a minority which means the majority are
I meant to write “half/two thirds of Lubavitch”.
Secondly the kovetz I saw was from Lubavitch headquarters
Ha, someone wrote Lubavitch headquarters on their kovetz! Again, complete ignorance about regular life in Lubavitch.
P.S. I am am NOT saying: (1) that there aren’t thousands of Lubavitchers with yechi yarmulkes, etc. (2) that majority of Lubavitchers don’t believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
I AM saying: The statement that “Chabad in general is not obsessed with the Rebbe being Moshiach” is not wrong at all.The issue with the OP is that he’s jumping into a huge ocean of arguments between gedolei yisroel that went on for a LONG time, and picking all of the arguments of one of the sides and showing how obvious it is that they are correct.
My favorite line which demonstrates this point:
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan [ZTL, ZYA] wrote….
This also refutes The Three Oaths.
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan was a GENIUS, and his words should be listened to.Aha, so we have all of these interesting arguments, but because “the genius of all time” implies a refutation of the three oaths, this must be the final ruling.
“Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school.“
יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך משיח לעולם ועד printed on everything from yarmulkes to booklets printed from 770 to any sign you see in ארץ ישראל with the rebbes image
You can’t be serious
By “Lubavitch in general”, CS probably meant the half/third of Lubavitch that isn’t meshichist (which does not mean they don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, it means that they’re not obsessed with the idea). If anyone thinks that majority of Lubavitchers wear yechi yarmulkes or majority of Chabad kovtzim say yechi on them – they are plain ignorant.
Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.
Just gonna jump in quickly to clear up some completely misconstrued facts:
Chabadpedia is in no way a quasi-official Lubavitch website. It is FULL of mistakes and inaccuracies.
It has the same level of credibility as ANY wikipedia page.Arso, if you want, YOU YOURSELF can write things on chabadpedia and you will not be stopped! I have corrected mistakes every now and then and no qualifications were needed. I just pressed “edit” and made the changes.
[I wasn’t following the conversation so I have no idea which Chabadpedia page you’re referring to, but I just wanted to put the reality out there]
please add a question mark to what I just posted in Gedolei Torah and Municipal Elections
It should read:
(from an earlier election?)Thanks
I loved the YWN headline:
“HaGaon HaRav Landau: “Whoever doesn’t want to vote shouldn’t put on Tefillin””
One of the best headlines yet!
P.S. There is a great video of Rav Landau (from an earlier election?) where some askanim try to convince him to endorse the election, and he sternly sends them away with strong ridicule.
mod,
If you must apologize to Satmar for someone writing (respectfully) that Satmar isn’t involved in engaging Jews from all walks of life, you have LOTS of apologies to make to Lubavitch about some slightly less respectful and less true comments made about them throughout this thread.
sometimes there is a fine line between respectfully and ignorantly (as in lacking information). I do my best.
mod,
Sorry for the let down. I’m actually impressed with myself that I managed to fool you for so long! 😃
P.S. As an aside, I hope you noticed that I didn’t use the idea of “defenders” any less mockingly then I used the idea of “attackers”…
There is a vort that’s said in the name of a great tzaddik who lived before the times of the Baal Shem Tov who was involved in heavy machlokes with another great tzaddik (I won’t say his name because I’m not sure if I’m quoting it correctly, but the point is definitely true in many cases): ‘Only on the first day our machlokes was לשם שמים, from after that it was personal’.
I think this is definitely true in this machlokes. (–This is in response to the mod’s statement about “pretending it isn’t okay for people to defend Torah values”…)Yankel Berel
“When will the habad apologists understand and agree that criticism does not necessarily equal hate ?”
1) See my correction/explanation in my response to the mod.
2) Why did you mention nothing of the “modern orthodox apologists” who are calling out people for “hatred” a few posts later?
Mod, “Gosh, until you reverted to the beloved “haters” statement I actually valued your perspective and saw you as above the PR stuff. What a let down.”
I should have said “same opponents expressing their opposition and defenders expressing their defense.”
My point was that we pretty much know that some people here take strong issue with Lubavitch and they will probably continue their attacks no matter what, and others here are Lubavitchers (myself included), and they will probably continue their defense no matter what.
attacks, hate, different versions of the same PR point. Pretending it isn’t okay for people to defend Torah values, on both “sides of the aisle” is a PR stunt.
What a let down
Nothing new from what has been going on in hundreds of pages of CR threads of rehashing this topic.ARSo,
Menachem, welcome back!
Thank you! Busy times, not sure how long often I can pop in.
Regarding your points in response to my post, I guess we see different circles in Chabad.
Now why would the LR stop someone identifying in a manner which would allow him to feel the part fully. The answer that I was given is, as I wrote, to attract others to Lubavich.
The idea of changing levush is a bit more complicated. There were some whom the Rebbe permitted to change their levush and others whom he didn’t. I haven’t yet seen any places where the Rebbe addressed this idea outright (it’s mainly rumors), so I’m not so clear on this, but my understanding of the reasoning for not allowing to change was:
1) Lubavitch was never very into the concept of levush, to an extent it was looked at as a chitzoniusdike idea, and the Rebbe didn’t want people to feel that the way you dress decides if you are Lubavitch or not (people shouldn’t feel that now that they wear a different kind of hat they are considered an official Lubavitcher and potur from avoda…)
2) Often, similar to new baalei teshuva, the family of a new Lubavitcher was very nervous about the change and often something so blatant as changing one’s garments could set off bitter family strife.
3) It is indeed possible that another reason was as ARSo wrote, that the Rebbe felt that by keeping the levush they would have an easier time relating to those from their previous sect, thus making it easier for that individual to do hafatzas hamaayanos, which has been a main focus of the Lubavitcher derech since the times of the Alter Rebbe (originating already from the Baal Shem Tov with chassidus haklolis).
It’s interesting to note that when chassidim came from Russia, many of them were also instructed by the Rebbe not to change their levush from a kasket to a fedora (e.g. the iconic Reb Mendel Futerfas).
Another related incident: Artist Boruch Nachshon joined Chabad from a modern Israeli family in the 50s. Before his chassuna, his mashpia advised him to begin wearing a hat and kapote, but his family (kippa seruga style) didn’t want him to. The Rebbe wrote to him (14 Tammuz 5722):
פשוט שאין זה ענין כלל לעורר רוגז (ועל אחת כמה וכמה – מחלוקת) בדבר הלבוש בעת החופה והחתונה, ושנואה המחלוקת כו’ וגדול השלום.
Since then he wore a french barrett instead of a classic Chabad hat.(Again, aside from the last story, I haven’t seen anything written about this, so they are just my theories or rumors that I’ve heard. I’ll try to do more research on the matter)
I’m quite busy these days, but just decided to take a peek and look through this thread. Unsurprisingly, I found nothing new. Same haters expressing their hate and loyalists expressing their loyalty.
Just some thoughts on some factual claims that I noticed:
Avira,
“What about rav eliezer silver rescuing orphans from a christian compound after the Holocaust”Funny you mentioned this. This story is recounted countless times in Chabad Houses, it comes out of my ears.
ARSo,
What you don’t realise is that for many of us, what constitutes “kol minei nevoloh” is far different to what you consider it. I’ll give you two examples. Amongst other chassidim, chassanim meeting their kallos after the engagement is non-existent or at the very least kept to a VERY bare minimum. In Lubavich it is unfortunately common practice. In Lubavich bochurim eating at the same table as non-related girls is acceptable. Not in other chatzeiros.I was honestly wondering what you meant by “mixing of genders” in Crown Heights, which I have never seen. Thanks for giving more specific examples.
I have never seen bochurim eating at the same table as non-related girls. Bochurim would not go to a friend’s house for Shabbos or for a meal if they have sisters in their age group at home.
During the engagement (which is usually about 2 months), chosson and kalla usually meet once every 2-3 weeks (so about 4 times during engagement), the less the better. However, the Rebbe encouraged the chosson and kallah to stay be in different cities for the duration of the engagement, so, depending on the distance, the meetings are sometimes less frequent.
Even the ones who can rattle off sichos keep to these very low standards, and virtually all (that I know of – you can correct me here if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am) have smartphones which they access even in shule.
Until about 21, pretty much all the chassidishe bochurim don’t have. Closer to marriage it does become more common (with strong filters obviously).
Are we meant to “act on”, say, kemitzah, or on the planetary system the Rambam writes in his halachos?
I don’t want to get into the whole Moshiach question, but it seems that CS was saying that the Rambam isn’t just giving us nice information on Jewish concepts, rather he is giving practical instructions for identifying Moshiach.
ARSo seems to be countering that we find other parts of Rambam which are clearly just informative but not meant to be practical halacha.ARSo, correct me if I understood your point wrong, but your examples seem to hold very little water:
Of course kemitza is meant to be acted upon, when we have a Beis Hamikdash.
The planetary system is also meant to act upon, by:
1) Using it to contemplate Hashem’s greatness, thus fulfilling the mitzvos of ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem (which is why he brings it in הל’ יסוה”ת. See פ”ב ה”ב, פ”ד הי”ב)
2) Beis Din using it to test the עדי ראיה for rosh chodesh (which is why he brings it in הל’ קידוש החודש. See פ”א ה”ז, ספי”ט).P.S. Again, I’m not getting into the argument whether the Rambam’s Moshiach qualifications apply in this case, rather the general discussion if the Rambam meant his sefer to be practical halacha (as he write in his hakdama) or general information.
Gosh, until you reverted to the beloved “haters” statement I actually valued your perspective and saw you as above the PR stuff. What a let down.
I think Moschiach will mint bitcoins.
I completely agree.
As a matter of fact, I will ONLY accept a Moshiach who mines bitcoins (to answer all those who have kept asking me who I would accept as Moshiach).
Qwerty, as I’m reading your posts, I keep thinking of great arguments and proofs to answer your questions.
However, I keep stopping myself from answering, because I remember that every attack that you wrote here had PAGES of discussions in previous threads. I already wrote many posts proving that nevuah is possible nowadays (although I never tried to prove or convince you that the Rebbe is a novi – I don’t think that convincing someone of deep religious convictions is easy on public anonymous forums), proving that the Rebbe wasn’t the only one in history who said extreme-sounding statements about tzaddikim (although I never tried explaining you what the Rebbe’s statement actually meant – I don’t think that explaining deep ideas in Torah and mysticism is easy on public anonymous forums, though I did refer you to a shiur from YY Jacobson on the subject), and much much more.
Despite my hundreds of posts to you, you would still insist that I always ignored your questions (and of course, you insisted on ending every question with “checkmate”.)
Thus, rehashing all the proofs etc. would make me similar to the prisoners in the story that I mentioned above.