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Btw if anyone runs into Shmei send him my checkmate.
Says the one who begs me to condemn Seichel’s “many statements” yet can’t even point to one specific post.
Philosopher would be attacking chareidim if he saw a negative documentary portraying chareidim as a devilish cult with real footage of actual chareidim (there are many such documentaries).
Seichel stated more than once that he takes the Gemara which says that Yaakov is god literally.
Which post of sechel are you referring to?
(Date, time, post number)Is it better to err on the side of love, or err on the side of hate?
Shmei had a chance to prove he’s Jewish by calling out Seichel’s idolatry.
Sure!
Which post of sechel are you referring to?
(Date, time, post number)Either one of us is going crazy or someone has stolen your moniker : -)
Your whole post happened to be things I agree with, lol.
“1. none of them take the advice %100, and will use it more as food for thought for general guidance”
I, with newfound respect, beg to differ. I know a number of people who use the igros regularly to make their decisions, and many even encourage others to do so.
“None of THEM” was referring to what I wrote before “I know some people who do this” – None of THEM take it to the extreme, though I am indeed aware that some people out there do.
Of course we believe in Hashgochoh Protis, but determining what is meant to be done from a given circumstance is very dangerous.
I completely agree, great example.
There is a known joke in Chabad circles that a guy named Sholom was wondering about his engagement with Brocha from Brooklyn, so he opened an Igros Kodesh and was excited to find a letter that said “ברוקלין נ.י. שלום וברכה” (the header of every letter).
And I know Lubavitcher that do this (because that is what they’re taught)
I literally wrote that: “No (credible) source at all, and I think it’s ridiculous. I know some people who do this, and they were never able to explain this strange custom to me”
Was it worth for Netanyahu to have not agreed to a cease fire, that would have freed the hostages before they were killed?
Yes, because a ceasefire could mean thousands more Jews killed ch”v, as Hamas has no reason not to repeat what they did on October 7th.
ARSo,
Welcome back!
Funny, I actually agree with everything that you said here!
Congratulations on some of the most logical points in this thread!To break it down:
When someone says that a person who others assume has died is “with us physically” what does it mean?
The most common understanding is that his spiritual life is felt very much in our day-to-life, living with his teachings, guidance, etc. (תניא אגה”ק סי’ כז).
Even Yaakov Avinu lo meis – what does it mean? To me, from the gemara in Sotah 13a, it seems that he was alive but his soul was in his body,
This meaning is a bit more farfetched, but as you pointed out, it is in Gemara after all, and this is how Rashi explains it (Yaakov was physically alive, but he SEEMED dead -Taanis 5b, and this is also implied from the story of Chushim in Sotah, as you referenced) so I guess it’s not completely crazy if someone believes this about a tzaddik.
it seems that he was alive but his soul was in his body, and not that he was in 770 or elsewhere.
This is obviously the meaning. ר’ יוחנן doesn’t argue on the fact that Yaakov was buried in מערת המכפלה etc., rather he says that all of this WAS DONE because he seemed to be dead, but despite all of this he was alive (obviously miraculously).
So without dissembling, what does it mean when someone says the L rebbe is alive physically.
If someone makes this (farfetched) point, it MUST mean that the Rebbe was buried at the ohel (since halacha mandates that we follow what our eyes see, even if Torah tells us that the truth is different, which is why Yaakov was buried etc. even according to Rashi’s opinion, as the Rebbe himself explained לקו”ש חל”ה שיחת ויחי), and that is where he is now, not physically walking around 770, which is ridiculous.
I know many, many people who believe that the Rebbe is alive physically (like Rashi Taanis 5b about Yaakov Avinu) and all go to the ohel all the time.
Those who don’t go to the ohel and say that the Rebbe is physically in 770 are usually very dimwitted teenagers (though there are exceptions. As you may have seen in the video posted earlier of Rabbi Noam Wagner – who is a true gaon in nigleh and chassidus – he seems to be a bit wishy washy on the subject (though he himself goes to the ohel often) and I have confronted him about it without receiving a satisfactory answer).
[This doesn’t mean that a Lubavitcher won’t feel a special connection to the Rebbe in 770 as well, as the Rebbe Rayatz wrote that the place where a tzaddik learned and davened retains his holiness after his passing.
Another point is about Rabbeninu Hakadosh visiting his home after his passing to make kiddush, but b’pashtus he was usually buried in his kever, unless seen elsewhere.]
2. Goral Hagra was transmitted from the Gra himself, which is why it is called that (surprise, surprise). What is the source for using the LR’s igros to answer questions?
No (credible) source at all, and I think it’s ridiculous. I know some people who do this, and they were never able to explain this strange custom to me (though none of them take the advice %100, and will use it more as food for thought for general guidance, and ask a mashpia for practical behavior).
Finally, don’t quote me anecdotal stories about people putting kvitlech in seforim of their Rebbes, and having answers and/or yeshuos. I believe that many of those stories are in fact true, but that is not the same as reading what the sefer says when it is opened at random and deciding what it means on a personal level.
Completely agree. Obviously, there is a concept of hashgacha protis, so if someone is going through a challenge and davening for a brocha, and suddenly learns something addressing his challenge we could definitely say that Hashem arranged the events, since everything is controlled by Hashem, and the Baal Shem Tov taught about finding a lesson in everything we see.
But deciding that whatever you open up to is a spiritual instruction is baseless and childish.Either renounce Seichel’s idolatry or admit that you agree with it.
I would have Dan Him Lkaf Zechus that he didn’t mean that literally except for the fact that Seichel and Lostspark do accept it literally and you refuse to call them out for taking it literally.
Whoah Qwerty, new accusation here!
We are making lots of progress these days.You already agree that עצמות ומהות ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף can be understood just like all the other similar statements of great tzaddikim, which were obviously not AZ, ch”v.
You also came to understand that saying “so-and-so is an anav” or “so-and-so is a novi” doesn’t necessarily contradict the Gemara in Sotah.
I assume you also came to terms with the vort of Rabbi Posner, since you haven’t yet condemned the Vilna Gaon or Ben Yehoyadah for saying the same thing.
You also admitted that you don’t actually know anything that the Rebbe said, and are basing all of your “attacks” on rumors overheard in shul and online (I hope you don’t start believing rumors on Twitter about what it says in the Talmud).
You have one problem left:
Seichel and Lostspark have made statements that are CLEARLY avodah zorah (unlike all the statements of tzaddikim that I quoted earlier) and I refuse to condemn them!This is a serious accusation against me!
Please show me which posts of theirs you are referring to (please be specific, as I have always been with you), and I will definitely renounce any AZ which they espoused, r”l.@OP you must be enrolled in the TROLLer Yeshiva, this is very big issue with the Trollers
Common,
Welcome, I was waiting for you!
Qwerty,
To clarify what I mean by “specific”:
Please write date, time and post number, as I have always done for you when referencing a post.Qwerty and Coffee,
I’m still waiting for you to come out against the Vilna Gaon who said the same vort as Rabbi Posner.
By the way, once your at it, I found that the Ben Yehoyada says the same vort (סנהדרין פט,ב), so I expect you to come out against him as well.
(And again, the root concept that without the tenth test the first nine seemed worthless is a clear Gemara and Rashi on Chumash, as well as hinted in the posuk “NOW i know that you fear Hashem”.)
At face value this is clear-cut idolatry and many have used that literal meaning to support their idolatrous views. But those who accept Hashem Echad realize that the verse isn’t actually saying this.
You’re finally catching on.
When it comes to the Rebbe’s sichos, you are part of the former group of people, and I (and fellow Lubavitchers) am part of the latter.
“In one such essay he discusses the Akeidah and the author said that the Akeidah was the only real test that Abraham faced because the other nine were just acts of Chesed which matched his good nature. Number one that’s absolutely false.”
“Kicking out הגר & ישמעאל is hardly חסד”
“All I said is that Rabbi Pozner downplayed Avraham Avinu’s greatness by writing in his book that the Akeidah was our Founder’s only true test which is obviously false. Leaving his homeland and sending away Yishmael were examples of Avraham going against his Middah of Chesed.”
In addition to what I posted earlier, I did some more research, and this is what I found:
The Vilna Gaon:
“By the Akeida Hashem said “Now I I know that you fear Hashem,” because until then Avraham was only a great rachman (merciful) for he would invite guests and do acts of kindness. However, the middah of Achzariyus (cruelty/severity) and forcing himself to fulfill Hashem’s mitzvos was not yet apparent in him, and people could have said that Avraham is not a tzaddik gamur ch”v.However, at the Akeida, when he also acted with the middah of Achzariyus, for he had a complete desire to fulfill Hashem’s command and slaughter his only son, then he was complete, and it was clear that he was a tzaddik gamur.”
See it here, in his sefer Kol Eliyahu: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14227&st=&pgnum=7
Will you begin attacking the Vilna Gaon as well now?
Or will you admit that it’s absurd to attack random pirushim and vertelach just because you don’t understand them or don’t like the author?
Lubavitchers have their own “Chumash” called “the rebbe’s sichos” (which is why it’s probably quoted a lot over here)
I know, it’s crazy for students to quote their teacher all the time.
Imagine if someone לא אמר דבר שלא שמע מרבו, such blasphemy.So according to Shmei no one should study this work because of his “ignorance.”
On the contrary, study it! But don’t viciously attack others because you haven’t studied enough to understand what they mean.
there is one overriding, sacrosanct unalterable concept in Judaism, “Hashem Echad and nothing has any power other than Him.” This is Judaism 1.0 and it’s been universally accepted by believing Jews throughout the ages.
Of course, especially if one learns chassidus which focuses so much on Achdus Hashem.
However, that doesn’t mean that there lack statements throughout Torah that may confuse someone who doesn’t know how to learn. Think about all the statements that I’ve referenced earlier.
Or when it says that anyone who says Vayechulu on Shabbos becomes a שותף במעשה בראשית. According to your logic this is literally שיתוף ch”v.
Or that one must honor one’s parents because שלשה שותפין באדם הקב”ה אביו ואמו – according to you this is trinity ch”v!Qwerty, I know that now you’ll start giving excuses and explanations of what these statements REALLY mean, but that is pointless. I’m not ch”v saying that these statements are AZ. I’m saying that it’s childish to close your ears and scream every time you hear something that you misunderstand to be wrong.
All I said is that Rabbi Pozner downplayed Avraham Avinu’s greatness by writing in his book that the Akeidah was our Founder’s only true test which is obviously false.
This is literally in Rashi on chumash (as I explained at length)! It’s not ch”v downplaying Avraham’s greatness, on the contrary, it says that after the akeida any doubts that could have risen about Avraham’s loyalty were cleared.
Anyone who learns chassidus and especially the Rebbe’s sichos can attest to the tremendous admiration given for Avraham’s greatness.
It’s absurd how much effort you put into misreading Chabad divrei Torah to interpret them in a negative way.
I strongly agree with Yankel Berel, very very well said.
However, I will add that while I strongly support the fact that Jews are staying in control of the area and sending soldiers to protect the Jews, I absolutely don’t support all the symbols of their agenda of making Jews a nation like any other.
This includes their flag, their anthem (which intentionally omits any mention of G-d), the title Medinas Yisroel which they use to substitute the traditional, biblical “Eretz Yisroel.”Moreover, I feel that the flag, the anthem, etc. are detrimental
to their security, because they give chashivus to our recent, 70-year-old “independence” “given to us” by the UN, as opposed to the fact that it’s an ancient gift from the Creator to Avraham Avinu.
This encourages the bogus claim that we are a “colonialist entity” living on stolen land which must be “returned” to the Arabs, ch”v.I was especially disheartened when after October 7th, every Jew felt the need to do something to show their support, many chose (in their ignorance, thanks to the Zionist propaganda) to engage in waving the Zionist flag, etc., instead of engaging in true Judaism. (This is not to say that there weren’t many, many Jews who were inspired to add in Torah and mitzvos, but it could have been much more).
When people start associating the flag with Judaism, it’s because they think that the main part of being a Jew is being an “Israeli”, eating Israeli food, speaking the language, singing the songs, and waving the flags. However, true Yiddishkeit cannot be secular, rather it’s only Torah and mitzvos.
I challenged the Rebbe because he rejected the Gemara which says that there is no longer Nevuah. You answer by arguing that many Gemaras are wrong.
Chas v’shalom!
My point was that “Many Gemaras are wrong” – according to YOUR logic!
(Anyone with a small amount of comprehension can grasp what I meant)When the Gemara said that humility ended it means Rebbe’s level of humility. You know that, but you need to defend your
Finally, you have demonstrated that just because someone says something that seems to contradict a Gemara (such as “so-and-so is an anav” or “so-and-so is a novi”) that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s an apikores, rather more study is needed.
when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie.
I guess it’s not just Qwerty who is arrogant about his ignorance.
Rashi (Taanos 5b) explains יעקב לא מת literally.
והאי דחנטו חנטיא סבורים היו שמת – they embalmed him because they THOUGHT he was dead.
נדמה להם שהוא מת אבל חי היה – it SEEMED to them that he was dead, but he was alive.Maharsha and others ARGUE on this pirush, and explain that his body did die.
This is the classic understanding of their argument, not unique to Chabad. Check any Artscroll.
In one such essay he discusses the Akeidah and the author said that the Akeidah was the only real test that Abraham faced because the other nine were just acts of Chesed which matched his good nature. Number one that’s absolutely false.
Qwerty,
I said this before, and I’ll say it again. It’s okay to be ignorant, but the arrogance of ignorance is unacceptable. Why do you spend so much time reading Lubavitch books in order to misunderstand and attack them, instead of using that time to educate yourself so that your questions go away?
Now, let me explain what you read in Rabbi Posner’s book:
After the tenth test of the Akeida, Hashem said עתה ידעתי כי ירא אלקים אתה – “NOW I know that your fear Hashem.”
The obvious question is, why only now? Wasn’t Avraham tested nine times before?
Moreover: The Gemara says (and it’s brought in Rashi), why did Hashem tell Avraham קח נא – “PLEASE take your son”? Because if Avraham would fail this test, people would say about the first tests לא הי’ בהן ממש – “they had no substance.”
Why would the first tests be worthless just because Avraham didn’t pass the last one?
One of the answers given is that since Avraham’s nature was מדת החסד, it would SEEM that he only passed the first tests because they fit with his nature. However, by passing the tenth test (which went against the מדת החסד), it became clear that he passed all of the tests only for the sake of Hashem.
This is explained in many places, including by the Rebbe (לקו”ש ח”ב ע’ 378 ועוד בכ”מ), the Rebbe Rayatz (סה”מ קונטרסים ח”ב ע’ 642), Tanya (אגה”ק סי’ יג), etc., all based on a Zohar.
Oh, and the Vilna Gaon (not quite a Lubavitcher) also writes something similar (ספד”צ פ”ג ד”ה וענין שמא
).Number two in their religion no one is shown any respect except the seven Rebbe’s
I’m not sure if this is a random attack (in which case there’s no need to answer) or a continuation to the beginning of your post. I will assume the latter.
Anyone familiar with Chabad chassidus, and even more so with the Rebbe’s sichos, know the major levels or respect and veneration for Avraham Avinu, and the aforementioned vort only increases Avraham’s greatness; its point is to prove how Avraham’s avoda was completely selfless.On Sukkas they honor the Rebbe’s as the actual Ushpizin.
Every night of Sukkos, the Rebbe would say a sicha about that night’s ushpiza according to the Zohar (Avraham, Yitzchak, Yaakov, etc.), and lesson that can be learned from his avoda.
The Rebbe Rayatz said that in addition to those ushpizin, there are also other Ushpizin. Here is a loose translation of the Rebbe Rayatz’s sicha from the first night of Sukkos 5697 (סה”ש תרצ”ז ע’ 197):
“In 5654, in the Sukkah, my father the Rebbe [Rashab] said: By us there are also ushpizin, the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid [of Mezritch], etc. This means that the first day is Avraham and all those who come with him with the Baal Shem Tov; the second day is Yitzchak etc. with the Maggid, etc.”Qwerty,
The Rambam tells us what nevuah is in הלכות יסודי התורה.
Ruach Hakodesh is one thing, Siyata Dishmaya is another and Nevuah is a third and they’re not interchangeable.
You yourself conflated ruach hakodesh with nevuah, because the Gemara which you paraphrased as “there’s no Nevuah until Moshiach comes” actually says: “Since the death of Chagai, Zachariah and Malachai, RUACH HAKODESH departed from Yisroel.”
The Rebbe called the Rayatz a Novi, but he doesn’t relate any specific prophecy.
Why do you drone on about what the Rebbe did or didn’t say or mean, if you’ve never even read it!?
I understand that you struggle with Hebrew and Yiddish, but (1) If you don’t know something, say I don’t know. Don’t start assuming what he said.
(2) At least read a loose translation in English! Google “Chabad dot org parshas shoftim 5751” (lacks all the sources and leshonos of the original, but at least read this.)I don’t know what the Gemara meant when it said that Yaakov is god.
You obviously don’t know what it meant if you keep taking it at face value as AZ ch”v, but why do you keep attacking ideas if you don’t even understand their meanings?
I rewrote it. Hopefully it went through this time
Now let me see you explain how the Rebbe can argue on the Gemara which says that there’s no Nevuah until Moshiach comes.
Qwerty,
How do you argue with the very same Gemara (Sotah) which states that since the death of Rebbi there is no more humility and fear of sin?
[For example: You described Rav Moshe Feinstein as “exceedingly humble.” You also wrote, “Remember I’m a Lower East Sider and we have a reputation, which I try to uphold, for humility.”]
How does Tosfos (Shabbos 20B) argue with the same Gemara (Sotah) which states that since the churban there is no white glass?
How did the Dubner Maggid say mashalim if the Gemara says that mashal-makers ceased to exist after the passing of R’ Meir?
How did rishonim argue with the Gemara by referring to tzaddikim in their times as “novi”?
How does the Rambam argue with the Gemara by writing that nevuah will return to Klal Yisroel BEFORE Moshiach comes, as a PREPARATION for Moshiach?
How did a masbid in Ashkavta D’Rebbi attribute the qualities of nevuah to the Steipler, Chofetz Chaim, Reb Chaim Velozhiner, etc.?
[See much more on this in my posts responding to your “question” last year.]
Did my post last night to “Chabad Media” go through? About nevuah?
Lubavitche that are engaged in idol worship. They just know that some Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is alive, but they have no clue that they worship him like an idol
the prevalence of praying to, instead of to God – to the late habad leader
If you repeat this lie enough times you will probably convince some people to believe you, but that doesn’t change the facts that this is completely false slander and הוצאת שם רע on a part of Klal Yisroel, Hashem yerachem.
It is insane how some evil people who seek to spread hate and מחלוקת among Klal Yisroel have succeeded in having their lies seep in so much.
Fandango,
Are you saying that the Democratic Party (Biden, Harris, Schumer, Obama, etc.) doesn’t actually pressure Israel to ease its fight against our enemies and show ‘mercy’ to the ‘poor Palestinians,’ ch”v, with all kinds of bogus ‘peace’ attempts that only encourage the terrorists to fight more whenever they sense weakness?
They prey on ignorant Jews with their missionizing, people who didn’t have proper Jewish education, and try to convince them that they are normative Orthodox Judaism, which is far from the truth.
I pray that you never need to use their “missionizing services” for a family member who lost their way (I don’t mean physically, as this is not Chabad’s true goal).
If ch”v you would be in that situation, oy, how you would regret these words!Menachem Shmei is even worse. He continually challenged me to answer his holy question calling me a liar for ducking the question. I told him several times that no such question was ever asked so he should ask me again. Like the coward he is, he dropped the subject.
See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.
It’s in clear and simple English.
[It was a long post, and was already posted twice, so I don’t think it’s fair to the readers to copy paste it all over again.]
Unlocked remotely by a centralized committee? Why can’t you just unlock it yourself?
That may also be an option; however, some might argue that it’s irresponsible for a committee to mass distribute weapons to people who lack proper experience and training. There’s a risk that someone might mistakenly use it on a burglar with children around or during a pro-Palestinian protest or something similar.
Having a central system can help ensure that the weapon is only used in true emergencies when the entire neighborhood requires protection.
1) Being a Lubavitcher in the YWNCR.
2) Every Jewish home in frum neighborhoods should have a rifle locked in a safe that can be unlocked remotely by a centralized committee, to be used in case of a riot or pogrom initiated by the alt-right if, ch”v, something catastrophic happens (e.g., Trump being assassinated by a liberal Jew) and figures like Nick, Candace, Andrew, Tucker, or Alex give the signal to incite violence similar to the Crown Heights riots (or George Floyd protests), but this time by members of the NRA. The police may not come to protect, and the difference between an unarmed neighborhood and a (even slightly) armed neighborhood is significant.
The frum oilom is EXTREMELY susceptible to propaganda and fake news.
This is nonsense!
Just yesterday I read on a frum news whatsapp group that statistics show the Jews are the least gullible ethnic group in NYC!Everything here was discussed already in previous threads. All just a bunch of foaming at the mouth (perhaps from both sides).
Nice to see that there’s always a Chabad thread (or threads) active.
This morning I made a simple request to Menachem Shmei to actually formulate a question which I’ll try to answer. Shmei cites my request and continues to call me a liar for not answering his non-existent question(s). This is bordering on schizophrenia territory.
See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.
It’s in clear and simple English.
[It was a long post, and was already posted twice, so I don’t think it’s fair to the readers to copy paste it all over again.]
I looked at the post and I don’t understand your question. I don’t read Yiddish. You have a very good command of English so formulate a question and I’ll try to answer it.
Qwerty, you will lie, lie, and lie to escape the fundamental question that I asked you a dozen times, and formulated beautifully and clearly in English in the aforementioned post.
As I said before, I probably won’t get you to retract your terrible false accusations and מוציא שם רע because you don’t seem to be looking for the truth (though you claim to have an unmatched “logic and love of truth,” neither of which are showing in your posts) but the truth seeking readers will see through your nonsense.
Yankel,
To clarify: I completely agree with your interpretation of all the quotes. However, it is obvious to anyone (who isn’t trying to prove negative things) that the Rebbe meant it exactly as they all meant it.
It is clear that he is referring to the NON LITERAL MEANING of being davuk to God . Not as God Himself chvsh.
You understand all of the quotes I referenced unliterally, only the Rebbe’s quote you take to have the literal meaning, yet you claim to have no preconceived notions!?!?
Again, I must by moiche on Qwerty being allowed to refer to a tzaddik b’Yosroel and tremendous talmid chochom with terms that are definitely not considered respectful dialogue.
Especially as he has not not been able to provide any basis for his slanderous claims.עָוֹן גָּדוֹל הוּא לְבַזּוֹת תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים אוֹ לִשְׂנאוֹתָן. לֹא חָרְבָה יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, עַד שֶׁבִּזּוּ בָהּ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר, וַיִהְיוּ מַלְעִיבִים בְּמַלְאֲכֵי הָאֱלֹהִים וּבוֹזִים דְּבָרָיו וּמִתַּעְתְּעִים בִּנְבִיאָיו, כְּלוֹמַר, בּוֹזִים מְלַמְּדֵי דְבָרָיו. וְכֵן זֶה שֶׁאָמְרָה תוֹרָה, וְאִם בְּחֻקֹּתַי תִּמְאָסוּ, מְלַמְּדֵי חֻקּוֹתַי תִּמְאָסוּ. וְכָל הַמְבַזֶּה אֶת הַחֲכָמִים, אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, וְהוּא בִּכְלַל כִּי דְבַר ה’ בָּזָה. וְאָסוּר לְשַׁמֵּשׁ בְּמִי שֶהוּא שׁוֹנֶה הֲלָכוֹת.
I myself remember hearing [in the early eighties] , from a mekor ne’eman that R Salamon zatsal [mashgiah of BMG] , convened a closed meeting in 1967[!] about his concern about the utterances of the habad leader .
1) If this is even true, do we know for a fact that they discussed this sicha, which was said 17 years earlier? If yes, why did they only wake up about it now?
If it was 1967, it is more reasonable to assume that they were discussing the shocking and disturbing chiddush “שלא ראו אבותינו” of the Rebbe encouraging chassidim to put tefillin on non-frum Jews 😲 (which began that year in connection with the war).2) My point was that it was not spoken about much, until it was released in newspaper articles filled with quotes and snippets taken out of context (or worse…) to make Lubavitch look bad to boost the political campaigns of the late 80s…
[Again, reminiscent of the “talmud compilations” that make their way around social media]I never said that Chabad is like any other group, like Ger and like Belz.
I had one point only: Accusing Chabad of AZ is pure slander, מוציא שם רע against an עדה קדושה בישראל to the worst degree.
There is absolutely no basis to this claim, unless one is intentionally trying to misinterpret statements which were equivalent to statements made throughout Torah, as I referenced.
This is no different than the antisemites on the internet who throw together some mistranslated/misinterpreted talmudic passages and make a gevald.“Hashem runs the world and He will take us out of Galus through His shliach the Rebbe.” Now that’s obviously a forced Pshat but for argument’s sake, we’ll accept it. So here’s the question, “Does any other Jewish group(Chassidish, Litvish Sfard you name it) declare their religious leader G-d’s partner?”
I know, it’s crazy to say that a human being is Hashem’s shliach to do something in the world. Almost as crazy as the kofer whom I overheard yesterday saying that he is supporting his family, as if it’s him and not Hashem. As crazy as Kalev saying that MOSHE split the sea, brought down manna, and flew in quail (see Rashi above). Or imagine if Moshe would have called Moshiach “Hashem’s shliach” to take the Jews out of golus (Rashi Shemos 4:13). As if G-d has partners! Pfft!
Qwerty,
You have an annoying habit of accusing me of not answering your questions when in fact no questions were actually posed. You’ve been doing this since I joined YWN, in a feeble attempt to impugn my integrity. I have answered every question sent to me by any poster.
See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.
I have answered every question sent to me by any poster.
I hope you will hold up that habit.
Menachem is a bright guy and he writes well. He debates well and in his mind he wins all the arguments. That may be true. However there’s a referee for all these contests and He’s in Shomayim. He’s not impressed with Shmei’s tricks. We know Him as Hashem and He’s a jealous G-d.
Thanks for the compliments. You’re right, Hashem is the true judge, but thankfully He displays His wisdom in the Torah which I presented to you in the aforementioned post.
P.S. Please try not to get caught up with the last paragraph, and first and foremost, answer the question I posed to you many times over the last year, as in the beginning of this post.
Qwerty,
You keep quoting Rabbi Cunin as if he said that the Rebbe runs the world and NOT HASHEM (ch”v).
This is equivalent to quoting Kalev as having said that Moshe alone split the sea, brought down the manna, and blew in the quail—AND NOT HASHEM (ch”v).
(Rashi, Shlach 13:30, based on Sotah)You are intentionally misinterpreting Chabad statements in order to fit your agenda. This same tactic is quite popular online these days, with antisemites misquoting and misinterpreting passages from the Gemara and halacha, so you’re just jumping on the bandwagon.
Just open the Chumash. Did you see chassidim complaining about the Rebbe the way Jews complained about Moshe? Caze clozed.
They were the misnagdim 😉
You had some Jews against Moshe and others extremely devoted.
Think about Yehoshua, Kalev, the Leviim, etc.I expect that Cardinal Shmei will demand that I answer his challenge and I’ll simply direct him to your post.
Qwerty, you still owe a response to the clear and well founded challenges I gave to your accusations against Chabad.
Unless you would rather stick to name-calling and arguing about who hates you than have a rational discussion about Torah topics.
He told me that the Rebbe often spoke about conquering the world. When Lubavitchers are tots they’re taught this song, “From 770 we are marching out, on to victory there is no doubt, one by one nations we are conquering.”
It’s called לתקן עולם במלכות ש-ד-י.
Maybe the Rebbe was more actively involved in this than other gedolim.Your claim rings similar to the Iranian and American alt-right documentaries about Chabad where they imply from the Rebbe’s sichos about Tzivos Hashem etc. that the Rebbe was secretly mobilizing a global army to fight a war against non-Jews.
Maybe join Candace Owens on her next podcast.Yankel,
Thanks for responding to my post! I appreciate the discussion. However, the points that you made are easily refutable:
A] If one reads the sicha (without preconceived notions and grievances), it is clear that the Rebbe does not hint to himself any more than the other statements I referenced. I challenge you to demonstrate how the sicha implies that the Rebbe was speaking about himself more than the other quotes I brought.
In fact, the sicha was delivered two months after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe (and months before the Rebbe even accepted the nesius), and it discusses why people should visit the ohel to receive brochos from the (Frierdiker) Rebbe, even after he is no longer alive! Given this context, how could the Rebbe have been referring to himself!?
Chabad chassidim may indeed apply these words to the Rebbe, just as the talmidim of Reb Elimelech surely applied his words about tzaddikim to him. However, there is no unique implication that the Rebbe was speaking about himself.
If you believe otherwise, please show me where in the Rebbe’s words this implication is made. If not, you should retract your claim.
[On a side note: You wrote “None of them said anything about themselves.” What about Idra Zuta in Zohar: פתח רבי שמעון ואמר בחד קטירא אתקטרנא ביה בקוב”ה… נשמתי ביה אחידא ביה להיטא.
I understand that tanaim may be different (“כגון אנא”), but just pointing this out for accuracy.]B] I guess there was personal gain for the Rebbe that people wouldn’t bother him for brochos, rather they would go to the Frierdiker Rebbe?
C] This is nonsense, I have never heard any sort of AZ style interpretation from Lubavitchers in this statement, ch”v.
As a matter of fact, this idea (of עצמות אריינגעשטעלט) is quite obscure and almost never mentioned in Chabad circles. This is not a classic topic of discussion.
It is only understood this way and amplified by non-Lubavitchers who are seeking to misinterpret the Rebbe’s words and cause a ruckus.D] This may or may not be true.
Do Lubavitchers really venerate the Rebbe more than the Jews in the desert venerated Moshe Rabbeinu, or the Jews of Eretz Yisroel venerated Shmuel Hanovi and Dovid Hamelech, or the Jews of Persia venerated Mordechai, or the veneration Rashbi received from his students, or the Arizal from his students, or the Baal Shem Tov from his students, or the veneration of the Chasam Sofer for his Rebbe, or the veneration of chassidei Chabad throughout the generations for their rabbeim?
I’m not sure. We’ll have to talk to an unbiased Jewish historian about that.I honestly don’t think that I will convince qwerty, since I have already gone in circles with him in the past.
However, for any readers who didn’t see the discussions in the past, here are my posts from last year:
August 4 2023:
From the 1950s until 1989, no one went crazy about the Rebbe saying and publishing that a rebbe is עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף.
Just as no one went crazy that the Minchas Elazar wrote (דרכי חיים ושלום – מנהגי תענית):
מגודל נשמת הגה”ק הרמ”מ מרימנוב זי”ע כי הקב”ה לקח ד’ אותיות הוי’ כביכול וכרכן בלבוש זשיפיצ”ע ובלבוש ספאדי”ק ומזה נעשה הרבי ר’ מענדילי מרימאנוב
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4692&st=&pgnum=234&hilite=No one went crazy when the Noam Elimelech wrote (about how a tzaddik has power to heal – ואתחנן ד):
אך זאת צריך להבין, מאין הוא להצדיק שיכול לרפאות לחולה ע”י תפילתו ולהמשיך לו חיות שיחי’ האדם, והלא חיותו של הצדיק איננו לעולם, הלא הוא כמקריות והאיך דבר מקרה יכול ליתן חיות לאדם, השי”ת ב”ה וב”ש שהוא חי וקים לעד ולעולמי עולמים וחיותו הוא עצמיות יכול ליתן חיות לאדם המקרי, אבל לא כן האדם שאין חיותו עצמיות. אמנם אין זה כי אם מחמת שהצדיק מדבק עצמו בהש”י ב”ה, ונמצא חיותו דבוק בהחיים הנצחיים העצמיות, והוי ליה חיותו של הצדיק ג”כ עצמיות ונצחיות, כי עצם אל עצם יחד ידובקו, ולכן יש כח ביד הצדיק להמשיך חיות אל החולה.No one went crazy when Rabbeinu Bachya wrote (שמות לג, ז):
מכאן שנקרא משה בשם המיוחד, וכן מצינו שנקרא יעקב בשם אל שנאמר . . . וכן מצינו בשם הצדיק שנקרא בשם המיוחד . . וכן מצינו במלך המשיח שנקרא בשם המיוחד שנאמר וזה שמו אשר יקראו הוי’ צדקנו . . וטעם הדבר בכלם כי הדבק בדבר נקרא על שם הדבר שידבק בו.No one went crazy when the Alter Rebbe wrote in Tanya (ch. 2) that every Jew is literally a part of G-d (quoting from Iyov (as mentioned by Sechel), but in Tanya he adds the word “mamash” – literally).
No one went crazy when Chazal said that the face of the Master Havayeh is R’ Shimon Bar Yochai. Or that “Havayeh in His holy chamber” refers to R’ Yitzchak in the beis midrash of Keisarin.
Of course, like anything in Torah, these statements need explanation and understanding. Go learn the ideas. There is an entire sefer – על הצדיקים (by Rabbi Pewsner) – that explains this topic at length. If you’re interested, go learn it. Don’t start calling thousands of people עובדי ע”ז (ch”v) because their Rebbe’s sefer says something that you don’t understand.
P.S. Again, this has nothing to do with ch”v davening to the Rebbe in shmone esrei, or the other nonsense which does not exist, as I wrote countless times.
This is a 1950s statement which some people decided to pull out in 1989 and misunderstand, in order to push the political agenda of the time.September 2 2023:
Qwerty, you haven’t answered the question that I directed at you SEVEN times.
Shtika Kihoda?
P.S. I asked the question in posts: #2213451 #2216778 #2216863 #2217091 #2218000 #2218095 #2220157
I’ll repeat it again: When Lubavitch said a statement that you understood as AZ at first glance, you immediately attacked Lubavitch, and it didn’t enter your mind that there can be a deeper meaning.
However, you do not attack the Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Zohar, or Yerushalmi – all of whom said similar statements which can also sound like AZ at first glance to an ignorant person.Or, I can ask the question as I wrote it in a different post:
What if I were to say:
“Hashem took the four letters of His holy name (הוי’) and garbed them in a hat and kapoto, and this is the Rebbe…”
Or: “Who is the face of י-ה-ו-ה? The Rebbe.”
Or: “When the posuk says that Hashem is in His holy chamber, this refers to the Rebbe when he’s in shul”
Or: “How can the Rebbe heal people if he is mortal and only G-d can give life? Since a tzaddik is one with G-d, he has the power of infinity since his life is Hashem’s essence, therefore he can give life to a sick person.”Would you also call this AZ even though these are just paraphrased from the aforementioned gedolim?
And if not, why not?From another post:
P.S. For anyone actually interested in the topic and is wondering, “Indeed, what did the Rebbe, Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Yerushalmi and Zohar mean when they wrote all of these surprising statements?” –
I suggest you watch an incredible shiur from Rabbi YY Jacobson on the topic: http://www.theyeshiva dot net/8291
(Although he discusses the general topic with many quotes from gedolim throughout the generations, he indeed doesn’t explicitly quote the Rebbe’s statement. I guess so as not to turn off his litvisher audience)I’m still waiting for qwerty to answer all of the great tzaddikim and holy books that I’ve quoted who say the same thing as Lubavitch yet he doesn’t label them avoda zorah ch”v.
Lubavitchers never said the Rebbe is …. ch”v, rather they said things that were equivalent to statements of many holy people and seforim in the past, however qwerty misconstrues it to sound like AZ ch”v.
I might be wrong for davening in that shul but I have no other choice if I want to daven with a minyan. And if I davened at home my wife would kill me.
I believe avoda zorah is יהרג ואל יעבור