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Would you criticize the IDF cook by saying: “Why are you sitting comfortably in a safe room while other soldiers are risking their lives on the battlefield? Why aren’t you out there in danger, fighting alongside them?”
Such an argument would be absurd. While combat may seem more heroic and demanding than working in the kitchen, if the cooks were to abandon their post and join the battle, the soldiers would starve!
The soldiers and the cooks are partners, each fulfilling a critical role in the war effort.
The same applies to Torah learners and physical fighters:
The ruchniyus aspect of the war is waged by those learning Torah in yeshiva, while the physical war is fought by the soldiers on the battlefield.
The Gemara says (Sanhedrin 49a):
אילמלא דוד לא עשה יואב מלחמה ואילמלא יואב לא עסק דוד בתורה
Were it not for David [who engaged in Torah study], Joab would not have been able to wage war. And were it not for Joab [who fought the battles], David would not have been able to study Torah.If either side abandoned their responsibilities due to a desire to do the other’s role, it would endanger us all, ch”v.
Pikuach nefesh overrides Yehareig V’al Yaavor and you know that.
Huh?
Instead of saying “Jewish Boy Dies from Bullying”
it probably would have been better if I had said:
“Jewish Boy Who was Victim of Bullying, has Died”.That is indeed a wise correction.
Bullying must be stoped, and strongly addressed.
No need to spread disinformation, especially of such magnitude.
Rashi or any mefoiresh on the Chumash is meant as explanation to the pesukim in the Chumash-they do not contradict the Chumash. If they appear to contradict a pesuk in the Chumash you are interpreting the mefoiresh wrong.
Or you are interpreting the chumash wrong, like the tzedokim did?
In our case, the meforshim who hold that Yaakov is physically alive are very clear (you only read Rashi, not any of the others whom I referenced).
You have a question from a posuk, and Ramban there answers. End of story. There is no contradiction between Torah Sebiksav and Shebaal Peh here.
Again, saying that one should always change the pshat of a clear Chazal/meforash to fit the literal meaning of a posuk (especially one which was already discussed and answered by meforshim) will usually lead one to Karaism (as we see from a poster who recently joined this thread).
It’s very concerning that not one person here properly understood anything I said.
Happy,
I can attest, I didn’t understand anything you said.
The Bible Academy you went to must have had a different yeshivishe shprach than the Yeshiva I went to.
There is a Sefer called רש״י כפשוטו (it’s a Chumash with rashi and an explanation on rashi) that brings a Gemara in bava basra that says it doesn’t say מיתה by דוד המלך because his son Shlomo followed in his footsteps and the same could be said here
Coffee,
1. It is not Rashi’s derech in his pirush in chumash to be understood based on an obscure Gemara. He writes his pirush assuming a child will read it and understand it at face value.
2. Even if you want to say that this is Rashi’s intention in his pirush on Vayechi, it is bipashtus not able to be his intention in his pirush on Taanis where he adds the part of נדמה להם etc.
The main discussion in this thread is regarding Rashi’s pirush in Taanis.
[And, as I have demonstrated in an earlier post, Rashi’s pirush on chumash need not match his pirush in Shas.]
ARSo is crazy if he thinks Hashem has any place for someone who’s not only a liar but he attacks those who disagree with him only to end up admitting we were right. If he was actually a Gemara teacher we can only imagine the percentage of boys who went OTD. Now Shmei and Benedict have officially formed an alliance. It’s a beautiful thing a modern day Hitler Stalin pact.
MODS? MODS?
Is this Twitter?
First he was arguing with me that Yacov wasn’t buried. When I showed him that the posuk says that Yacov was buried, he backtracked.
Of course, you never pointed out a SINGLE post where I insinuated that Yaakov wasn’t buried. Not a SINGLE one. Because I NEVER said that.
The same thing is now happening with Arso. First he argues on the entire thread that Yacov is PHYSICALLY alive
I haven’t seen a SINGLE POST where ARSo said that Yaakov is physically alive. He said that RASHI holds that Yaakov is alive.
If you don’t provide the posts where ARSo said I said those things you claim we said – you are a LIAR.
Call me an Apikorus.
Sure: You, Happy New Year, are an apikorus.
(Or, hopefully, a poor Jew who received a very very poor Jewish education).Why? This is what you wrote:
“Saying Chazer will be mutar is against the Torah. Period. I don’t CARE who said that. Including Chazal. Chazal, like the Neviim and Ksuvim, have NO right to contradict the Torah.
This is why Ruchniyus is so evil and why the Torah WARNS us against the SEDUCTION of Ruchniyus, and how we should only focus on Gashmiyus.”Rambam regarding one who denies Torah Shebal Peh: מֵאַחַר שֶׁנִּתְפַּרְסֵם שֶׁהוּא כּוֹפֵר בַּתּוֹרָה שֶׁבְּעַל פֶּה [מוֹרִידִין אוֹתוֹ] וְלֹא מַעֲלִין וַהֲרֵי הוּא כִּשְׁאָר כָּל הָאֶפִּיקוֹרוֹסִין וְהָאוֹמְרִין אֵין תּוֹרָה מִן הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהַמּוֹסְרִין וְהַמּוּמָרִין. שֶׁכָּל אֵלּוּ אֵינָם בִּכְלַל יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לֹא לְעֵדִים וְלֹא הַתְרָאָה וְלֹא דַּיָּנִים [אֶלָּא כָּל הַהוֹרֵג אֶחָד מֵהֶן עָשָׂה מִצְוָה גְּדוֹלָה וְהֵסִיר הַמִּכְשׁוֹל]:
(In the next halacha, the Rambam writes that this din does not apply to those who grew up without a proper upbringing and don’t know better. I hope you are part of that category.)
Oh. And by the way. The whole PURPOSE of Mashiach is to RESTORE the Torah (דברים פרק ל)
Correct, to restore the ENTIRE Torah, which includes Torah Shebiksav and Torah Shebal Peh (תורה בפירושה ניתנה).
As the Rambam writes regarding Moshiach: וְאִם יַעֲמֹד מֶלֶךְ מִבֵּית דָּוִד הוֹגֶה בַּתּוֹרָה וְעוֹסֵק בְּמִצְוֹת כְּדָוִד אָבִיו. כְּפִי תּוֹרָה שֶׁבִּכְתָב וְשֶׁבְּעַל פֶּה.Who cares who / if Mashiach is? As long as he / she RESTORES the Torah and Israel כדת וכדין.
“SHE”: Again, kefira in תורה שבעל פה.
Rambam: אֵין מַעֲמִידִין אִשָּׁה בְּמַלְכוּת שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים יז טו) “עָלֶיךָ מֶלֶךְ” וְלֹא מַלְכָּה. וְכֵן כָּל מְשִׂימוֹת שֶׁבְּיִשְׂרָאֵל אֵין מְמַנִּים בָּהֶם אֶלָּא אִישׁ.P.S. Regarding what it means that the chazzir will be kosher, there is much discussion. All agree that Torah does not change when Moshiach comes. Will the physical characteristic of the chazzir change? Does the possuk itself hint that the chazzir will change and become kosher? Does it mean that the tumah will leave the chazzir, but it will still be forbidden to eat? Does this apply to other animals as well, or only the pig?
This is a great discussion amongst gedolei Yisroel since the rishonim. Whatever the case, making this sound like a “Chabad kefira” just because a Lubavitcher sefer happened to quote this famous statement in the name of Chazal (“עתיד חזיר ליטהר”) is ludicrous.
A comment I posted on a Jewish news website that posted the story of the child whose death was “triggered by bullying”:
Bullying is a terrible, terrible thing that can break a child.
Death is a terrible, terrible thing that can break a family.
But do you know what can break an entire class, an entire school, or even an entire community? הוצאת שם רע.
Did the author investigate thoroughly to confirm that this tragic death was indeed caused by bullying and not an unrelated birth defect?
Did the author verify that the child left the bar mitzvah because he was bullied by his peers, and not because he was yelled at by a photographer?
Isn’t it necessary to conduct proper research before publicly accusing an entire class of murder right after they’ve lost a classmate?
This is something to seriously consider.
May the family be comforted, and may we suffer no more pain with the coming of Geula.
Q1, So if Yaakov is alive, even though we cant understand in what way, how does it help the discussion here about Chabad? Q2, Where does Chabad get the idea LR can be alive? Q3, What source do they have that its even possible in our days? Q4, What source is there for LR specifically?
You’re right, the discussion has nothing to do with Chabad.
It started when Philosopher exposed her ignorance to all by opening this discussion with the following post:
“It is Lubavitche like you who twist everything out of context. For example when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie.”
This is reminiscent of the time when Qwerty thought that chazzir becoming kosher when Moshiach comes was some kind of Chabad “kefira” 🤭.
For the past two weeks Benedict ARSo has been pounding away that he agrees with his Rebbe Shmei that Yaakov Avinu is alive because he follows Rashi’s Pshat
I think ARSo’s point was that he doesn’t follow any pshat about if Yaakov is physically alive or not. He doesn’t have an opinion about Yaakov’s death, and why should it make a difference to him anyways?
He is just quoting the opinions of Rashi vs Maharsha.
He has no reason to take a side.
I can say the same for myself. I don’t know if Yaakov is alive; who am I, a tiny ant, to put myself in between a machlokes of great rishonim?
What I DO know is what the rishonim themselves hold, and I will not accept anyone misinterpreting their opinions.Which opinion is right?
אלו ואלו דברים אלקים חיים, תשבי יתרץ קושיות ואיבעיותMenachem: I’m not sure what you’re objecting to. I simply quoted the Chofetz Chaim verbatim. Are you disagreeing with the Chofetz Chaim?
I was very clear:
“I would be very careful to research when and with whom these halachos apply.”Because many GREAT tzaddikim were punished in the past for speaking negatively about IDOLATERS.
We must be very careful in the proper way to apply these halachos, and to whom.
At least Benedict ARSo answered our challenge… There is no way he was ever a Rebbe because such an arrogant jerk wouldn’t last a day. He’s probably an escepee from a psych ward… Oh yeah he’s a high level Torah teacher. What a joke. Boy you can say anything on line if you don’t believe in Hashem.
Mods!
Although I strongly disagree with ARSo on most Lubavitch matters, I respect him as a level-headed poster and contributor to the CR. This inflammatory vitriol by Qwerty is completely out of hand and unacceptable.
In the past, Qwerty’s posts were ALWAYS censored, and we didn’t know why. Now that the (new?) mods have stopped censoring posts, his disgusting rhetoric can be seen for all.
If we wanted a fully uncensored forum where we can attack each other like children in a disgusting fashion, we could use Twitter instead.
Mods, please consider this. Thank you.
Q1, what does it mean, how is it different from being dead?
Check the meforshim (Rif, Iyun Yaakov, Etz Yosef, Ohr Hachayim) who explain it at length. You probably still won’t fully understand because it’s something completely supernatural beyond out understand. Ask Eliyahu Hanovi to explain it when Moshiach comes.
Q2, who is authority enough to say that if Yaakov aveinu can get to lo meis status then we can say the same about the LR?
No one said that in this thread. Completely unrelated to this discussion about Yaakov Avinu.
Do not be bamboozled by the Chabad missionaries who twist classical Torah teachings into a pretzel to make them appear as supporting Chabad Meshichist delusions.
Also: Do not be bamboozled by the Anti-Chabad missionaries who twist classical Torah teachings into a pretzel to make them appear as opposing a Torah-based statement that a Lubavitcher happened to make.
Truth. Truth. Truth.
Torah. Torah. Torah.if you have a Rabbi or talmud chuchem saying that Yacov lo mes means that Yacov’s guf is alive n his kever then post the rabbi’s name on this thread or the other one. (Still) Awaiting your response.
Sure: Rashi, Rif, Iyun Yaakov, Etz Yosef, Ohr Hachayim, Artscroll.
He believes that Yacov Avinu is PHYSICALLY alive simply because of the words that Rashi writes “Yacov lo mes”.
Rashi didn’t wrote that, the Gemara did. Rashi explained the Gemara in different words that are quite clear. Even Artscroll understands.
when i say that Rashi is not contradicting a b’fesrishe posuk in Veyechi which proves that Yacov mes
Which the Ramban (Nachmanodies, ever heard of him? BIG rabbi) answers why it’s not a contradiction. You are clearly SCAAAARED of checking this Ramban. Why?
P.S. Funny that we are even having this discussion when you ADMIT that NOT ONCE have you even learned this Rif/Iyun Yaakov/Etz Yosef/Ohr Hachaim/Artscroll to see for yourself.
All your “claims” come from shiurim you watched, yet you attack OTHERS for using online talking points.OP,
Once you’re pulling out some old Qwerty-related posts, here’s something related that I wrote to him last year (after he “accused” Chabad of “claiming” that chazir will be kosher when Moshiach comes 🤯):
“I advise you to get off the internet and open some Jewish books. Start learning from the basics before accusing others.
P.S. To the other posters: Obviously, I will not generalize and say that all litvishers are like this, since I know from the coffeeroom that most of you are very knowledgeable in many areas of Torah despite our various disagreements.”
And from another post:
“Even here in the CR, there are many posters whom I may disagree with on many issues, yet I consider them very normal and bright.
There are some other posters (I have one recent poster particularly in mind) whom I consider completely nuts (at least they provide comic relief).”Qwerty: To that point Bli Neder I’m out of the thread.
Also Qwerty (3 days later): It’s my sage advice that you cease and desist from any discussions with Benedict ARSo and the primordial serpent because neither has any interest in the truth.
Also Qwerty (one day later): You see how quiet Shmei is.
And finally, we have some serious projecting over here:
He has no beliefs other than an insatiable thirst to throw his weight around. I once heard a Rabbi discuss such “people.” “Yes it’s unpleasant to deal with them for an hour a day, but remember they have to live with themselves on a constant basis.” I’m sure he’s universally reviled. His poor wife assuming she didn’t leave him.Whoa, are you losing it?
Qwerty, if there is anything I can do to help you in your personal struggles, let me know, I’ll be happy to help.
@Menachem Shmei Because DovidHamelech is God.
I repeat: Why must we be subject to Dovid’s trollish ramblings?
P.S.
Thanks mods taking care of this last time.I will not continue arguing with people who deny what it says outright in the Chumash… They don’t understand how to understand pesukim, Chazal and meforshim which only SEEM on the surface to contradict the pesukim
Philosopher be like:
“If someone knocks out a tooth, the Gemara/Rishonim/Achronim say that he must PAY for the tooth. However, this seems to contradict an outright posuk, “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.”
Rather, we must reinterpret the Gemara and poskim – when they said PAY, they really mean that you should knock out the person’s tooth. “Pay” was just a euphemism.
After all, pesukim must be taken literally while Gemara/meforshim must be interpreted figuratively to fit with the posuk.
Also, I’m not a Karaite.”Square Root,
I’m also wondering if OP has a source for that incendiary statement, but I found some sources that are SIMILAR (but don’t actually say that greeting is BETTER than tzedaka):
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch:
אסור להחזיר את העני ששאל ריקם… ואם אין בידך כלום מה ליתן לו, פיסהו בדברים.Brochos 6b:
כל שיודע בחברו שהוא רגיל ליתן לו שלום יקדים לו שלום… ואם נתן לו ולא החזיר נקרא גזלן שנאמר ואתם בערתם הכרם גזלת העני בבתיכם.Best source I found – Bava Basra 9b:
כל הנותן פרוטה לעני מתברך בשש ברכות, והמפייסו בדברים מתברך באחת עשרה ברכות.
And according to Tosfos there, the מפייסו did not give any money.But obviously, we can all greet people with a smile AND give tzedaka.
Philosopher,
it says outright in the Chumash that the brothers of Yosef saw their father DIED, and other pesukim that openly show that Yaacov died.
Why do you claim to be interested in the truth of Torah, when you ignore the fact that I answered this question five times:
The Ramban asks the same question, how can the Torah say מת אביהם if יעקב לא מת, and he gives an answer!I brought this Ramban several times, yet you ignored it completely, continuing with your nonsense (apikursus?) – challenging the Ramban, Rashi, Rif, etc.
They don’t understand how to understand pesukim, Chazal and meforshim which only SEEM on the surface to contradict the pesukim that say that Yaacov died
The difference between us is that I looked up all the sources that you used to challenge Rashi et al and answered them, while you haven’t read any of the Torah sources that I referenced, instead basing your entire view on articles on the internet, and therefore you didn’t have a single proof for your mistake.
Why should I waste my time with people who want to believe that Yaacov Avinue is physically alive, that his body is breathing while buried under the ground, that he’s eating and his bodily functions are working while at the same time being his body is in his kever not being able to move?
Instead of learning the meforshim and perhaps admitting that you were wrong, you close your ears and scream like a child. You mock and ridicule the words of our holy rishonim, and then you attack OTHERS for being “against” Torah!
How can I debate with you about the intricacies of Chabad ideology, when you won’t even accept the truth of תורה שבעל פה!?
Why must we be subject to Dovid’s trollish ramblings?
Those three groups till now don’t escalate the war, because they are afraid to fight Israel in a full-fledged war, without this occurrence. If they wouldn’t be afraid, they would have already done so.
Israel must KEEP them afraid.
Every terrorist already knows that they could be killed by Israel. It hasn’t stopped any of them till now. and these pagers exploding won’t stopping them in the future either.
I feel like this whole “Arabs love death” thing is a bit exaggerated. I’m sure that many terrorists feel that they can get away with shooting rockets into another country and there is a chance that they’ll get away with it alive. When all of them start exploding in their living rooms, that starts to make them nervous about every step they take. I don’t think anyone, even “death-loving terrorists” could live with a real feeling that every step they take could be their last because their phone/microwave/earbud/doorbell etc. might explode in their face.
Coffee,
Thanks for the civil discussion.
In regards to your question as to why Hashem would do this miracle of יעקב לא מת:
This question has bothered all of the meforshim, and this is whether or not they took it to refer to physically or not – what is this unique limmud about Yaakov not dying, as opposed to other tzaddikim? (Regarding other tzaddikim it says במיתתן קרוים חיים. Why does Yaakov have a possuk that teaches even more – that he didn’t die?)
You can learn the meforshim on Chumash and Gemara for all of their explanations.
Many explain this in connection with the idea of מטתו שלמה, since there was no פסול in his זרע that caused a stronger level of eternity for him.
There is also the idea that he was בחיר שבאבות who was so saturated with Torah, that the eternity of Torah rubbed of on him.
Some explain that this was really the entire discussion at the seuda, Rav Nachman and Rav Yitzchak were debating the Torah perspective on how we look at nature vs Torah.
That’s connected to the first part of the discussion about the physical dangers of speaking divrei Torah at a seuda, etc.אין כאן המקום להאריך.
Qwerty,
As for Rav Gigi’s comment I found it on line and he quotes the Ohr Hachaim as understanding Yaakov Lo Med non literally
Well, it’s a mistake. The Ohr Hachaim is available for anyone to read.
And to think that I was the one being attacked for believing what I read online without checking the sources 🙃
It doesn’t make a difference if you find other meforshim who say that it’s non literal. That’s not the discussion. The question was if any meforshim say that it IS literal, and the answer is yes.
Rabbi Sacks said that the Rebbe studied Hitler
You are being completely dishonest, as I explained several times in my posts. The Rebbe never studied ymsh.
Of course, you will keep repeating it because honesty means nothing to you.Chabad considers themselves superior to all other Jews.
Not themselves, rather their derech, as I explained before, and YOU quoted so beautifully from Rav Avigdor Miller.
In addition the Rebbe’s goal was to conquer the world.
לתקן עולם במלכות שד”י. והיתה להשם המלוכה.
The Rebbe was really into spreading Judaism and G-dliness, to bring the world under G-d’s sovereignty.You admit that Shmei brings phony sources to prove the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Huh? When did I ever try to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach?
Second please tell me where Artscroll says that Rashi holds Yaakov Lo Mes literally. I will certainly check it out and if you’re correct I’ll acknowledge as much.
Qwerty, why do you attack me without even reading my posts!?
I sourced the Artscroll at least three times!
Here goes again (let’s see you acknowledge. I highly doubt you will, but won’t be the first time you were dishonest):
Artscroll Taanis 5B fn. 18:
“Since this verse proves that Jacob is still alive, we must conclude that Jacob only appeared to be dead to those who embalmed him (Rashi). Other commentators explain Jacob’s immortality not as a prolongation of physical life but as a form of continued spiritual existence (see Maharsha).”Yesterday coffee addict checkmated Yaakov Lo Meis.
Well said.
He challenged a Gemara (according to Rashi et al).
I defended it.[Biden: We finally beat Medicare.
Trump: He did beat Medicare. He beat it to death.]What does Shmei do? He tries to fend off my challenge and he “forgets” coffee’s proof.
What did I forget? I gave a beautiful answer to support Rashi et al. If you believe in תורה שבעל פה, you should be very happy with me.
never praise the actions of rashayim, nothing good comes out of their avairas
How dare you!?
Moshe gave hakaras hatov to inanimate objects, yet you are incapable of thanking a Jews who put themselves into danger to protect you!?
A) How do you know that they don’t keep mitzvos? Do YOU do no aveiros? Maybe they are more frum than you?
B) Even if ch”v they are not שומר תורה ומצוות, we can safely assume that the reason for this is that they didn’t have a proper Torah upbringing, they are like Jewish children who were captured by non-Jews, for whom we should be feeling great mercy and compassion.
Do we know how much Hashem values their mitzvos?
Rambam writes that we have no idea how much Hashem values a mitzvah. It’s possible for a mitzvah to seem insignificant to us, yet be extremely valuable to Hashem.
Maybe Hashem values the one act of this uneducated Jew to protect other Jews more than all the mitzvos that you may have done in a manner of מצוות אנשים מלומדה?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
but is that to the exclusion of hakaras hatov to those people who planned and executed the operation?
Chazal say:
חמרא למריה טיבותא לשקייה
Wine belongs to the owner, yet one thanks the one puring it.Every situation of hakoras hatov to people involves this, because in truth, everything comes from Hashem.
I am wondering: What was gained?
1. Many horrible Jew killers were maimed or killed.
2. Hezbollah will be more scared of escalating into a bigger war, because they have no idea what will be inflicted on them next.
3. Hamas will be more scared of escalating into a bigger war, because they have no idea what will be inflicted on them next.
4. Iran will be more scared of escalating into a bigger war, because they have no idea what will be inflicted on them next.
5. Less men join the aforementioned forces because they have no idea what will be inflicted on them next, thus limiting their manpower, thus limiting their fighting power.
Etc. etc.
Qwerty,
You scored a direct hit with your two questions. Great job .ARSo the Shmei puppet can’t answer either question so he says, We don’t die from a question..”
A) I answered the questions.
B) Open any sefer with divrei Torah on the parsha, you’ll find many questions in Torah. It’s not a reason to disregard a well-known pshat.
When we add my two questions is why do Maharsha and Ohr Hachaim not accept Rashi’s statement literally
Maharsha is arguing on Rashi (this may shock you, but meforshim argue all the time), and you have yet to show me the Ohr Hachaim, who clearly holds that Yaakov is physically alive (according to his pirush in Vayechi).
As for Shmei’s bubba maasehs, pay no attention to them..I caught the lying Kofer in my previous post where he falsely represents a statement of Rav Yochanan.
No, you read the WRONG Rav Yochanan (there were three, I was referring to the TWO that you “didnt see”… 😏) and ASKED me about it (not “caught” me) and I answered beautifully.
If you have a challenge to my answer, please present it. If not, admit that you made a “mistake”. (You will not.)
Shmei speculates that “perhaps” we can say the same about Yaakov, to wit since he seemed dead we can say he was dead sort of. So now we need Shmei to invent his own Torah
Qwerty, welcome to the world of limmud haTorah.
One Jew formulates a beautiful question on a Rashi; another Jew formulates a beautiful answer to defend Rashi (based on another Rashi – כפתור ופרח!!!).
Just another day in the beis midrash.
You clearly can’t provide any challenge to my beautiful answers.
Philosopher, I once wrote this in response to one of your “challenges” from the “Rif”:
“I read and reread the Rif in the Ein Yaakov and I still can’t find what you’re referring to that יעקב לא מת was only until Eretz Yisroel (I do remember a different meforash saying that, not the Rif).
Would you be so kind as to quote the words that you’re referring to (as I requested once already)?”Well, I found the meforash who says this, it’s the Chochmas Menoach, but not the Rif, as I said.
Meanwhile, it’s Philosopher and Qwerty who are misquoting meforshim (Philosopher: the Rif. Qwerty: Ohr Hachaim) while they claim (baselessly) that I am doing it.
Qwerty,
Harav Baruch Gigi has an excellent Dvar Torah on the subject. He quotes the Ohr Hachaim who explained that Yaakov Lo Meis means that his mission continued because he left over 12 sons who were all Tzaddikim.
I would love to know where this Ohr Hachaim is, because Ohr Hachaim in Vayechi is clear that Yaakov literally didn’t die.
Ohr Hachaim makes this clear several times in his pirushim to the pesukim in Vayechi there.
See here, ד”ה ויכל, ד”ה וישק, ד”ה ויחנטו: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14020&st=&pgnum=656
Philosopher, Ohr Hachaim is on Sefaria as well, so you can check there.
Qwerty:This time Shmei got caught with his pants down As I’ve said on many occasions ———— is a lying Kofer [ר”ל, עפ”ל] because he rejected the Gemara in Cheilek. Again, Rava said that the events at the final redemption will mirror what happened at Yetzias Mitzrayim, meaning that only a small percentage will be redeemed. Since ———- rejected this Gemara, all Chabad has to excuse his Kefirah. This is what Shmei came up with. He quoted Rav Yochanan saying, “It’s not satisfactory to Hashem that you said this about them is according to Resh Lakish most of the Jewish people will be doomed to Gehinnom. rather even if one learned only one law he has a share in Olam Habo. Very nice. Here’s the problem..That quote has nothing to do with Rava’s statement which comes 30 lines later on the Amud. Another failed attempt by Shmei to cover up for the Kofer in the box.
Qwerty, a small tip: When asking a question, express a little less anger and hate in your tone; that way, you’ll look like less of a fool when it is answered.
You are correct that Rav Yochanan didn’t make his statement directly to Rava, but you are wrong because Rav Yochanan made his statement THREE times on the page, and you only noticed the ONE time that wasn’t relevant (“you see what you want to see”)!
The other two times, Resh Lakish stated that a portion of Jews wouldn’t be redeemed (though nowhere near the amount that Rava holds), and Rav Yochanan ARGUED, and said that Hashem isn’t happy with this.
In my post that you are quoting, I wrote all of this in short because I already explained it at length in an earlier post. I though you would remember.
The point is: Even Resh Lakish argues with Rava, and Rav Yochanan certainly does. The same is regarding Rav and Rav Kahana on the page.
And even Rava is explained by meforshim NOT to mean that Jews will miss out from Redemption.
If you don’t understand any of this because it’s to complicated for you, fine. But drop all of the attacks on anything that you can’t grasp.
P.S. Here is an excerpt of my earlier post where I explained the sugya at length (full post is September 5, 9:54am):
The posuk says that at the time of redemption, “two thirds will be wiped out and one third will remain.”
Thirds of what?
Resh Lakish says that only one third of the Jews (Arpachshad ben Sheim’s descendants) will survive, all others will die.
R’ Yochanan says, “Hashem is not happy with you saying such a thing” – that so many Jews (or non-Jews, depends on which meforash) will die! Instead, one third of Sheim’s descendants will survive. i.e., ALL the Jews and many non-Jews will survive.Even according Resh Lakish (who said something that “Hashem is not happy with”), at least a third of Jews will survive, which disagrees with Rava’s opinion that only 2/600,000 will survive. Certainly R’ Yochanan, who says that all Jews will survive, argues with Rava.
Next section on the amud of Gemara:
Resh Lakish says, Hashem will only redeem the tzaddikim; one Jew from every city and two from every household.
R’ Yochanan says, “Hashem is not happy with you saying such a thing” – that most of the Jews won’t be redeemed! Rather, he explains, the merit of one tzaddik will cause his entire city to be redeemed, and in the merit of two, their entire household.
[Rav and Rav Kahana had the same machlokes, with Rav admonishing R’ Kahana.]Finally, after all of this, comes the statement of Rava that only 2/600,000 will survive.
…Even the statement of Rava needn’t be understood literally (that most Jews will not be redeemed). Meforshim explain that the majority of Jews who won’t be present at the Geula refers to the many PREVIOUS generations of Jews from before the Geula. These people will rise for techiyas hameisim and greatly outnumber the group of Jews who were part of the generation that was present at the actual time of Geula. [See footnotes in Artscroll, referencing Maharal and Yaavetz.]
Qwerty,
Maharsha explains Yaakov Lo Meis to mean that his soul is immortal.
Right, and he writes that he is arguing with Rashi’s pshat, as I have written in at least 8 posts.
Coffee,
I would like to ask you a question (according to Rashi et al in the plain and pashut sense)
We say תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהילת יעקב the word מורשה (according what I heard at least) is that it means inheritance (and because we say קהילת יעקב it’s understood from יעקב) how can an alive person give over an inheritance, inheritance is only done after death?Additionally
Doesn’t it say Hashem doesn’t affix His name to a person while he’s alive? (Hashem said to Moshe “אלקי אביך” and the midrash says that’s how Moshe knew he passed away) yet Hashem says אלקי יעקבExcellent questions on Rashi and the other meforshim!
I suggest you look into it, find some nice answers, and maybe use this as a Dvar Torah or pilpul that you can deliver for parshas Vayechi.It is obviously unnecessary to point out that even if we have unanswered questions on a true talmid chacham (like Rashi et al), that doesn’t ch”v invalidate their pshat.
However, I’ll give some thoughts that may answer your questions:
THOUGHTS TO ANSWER YOUR FIRST QUESTION:
1. The idea of מורשה is mainly emphasizing the WAY that Yidden received Torah: Just as a yerusha is passed automatically to all the children, even a little baby, so to Torah belongs to every Jew just because he/she is Jewish (as the Rambam writes: כֶּתֶר תּוֹרָה הֲרֵי מֻנָּח וְעוֹמֵד וּמוּכָן לְכָל יִשְׂרָאֵל. שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (“תּוֹרָה צִוָּה לָנוּ משֶׁה מוֹרָשָׁה קְהִלַּת יַעֲקֹב”. כָּל מִי שֶׁיִּרְצֶה יָבוֹא וְיִטּל.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that we are getting Torah from a dead person. On the contrary, we are inheriting Torah FROM HASHEM.
2. קהלת יעקב does not necessarily imply an inheritance from Yaakov, for the Jewish people are called בני ישראל\כלל ישראל\בני יעקב\קהלת יעקב all the time, not necessarily referring to something that they have received from Yaakov himself.
Actually, the Ramban writes that מורשה קהלת יעקב means that Yaakov himself RECEIVES the inheritance as well:
וְדָרְשׁוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ (מדרש תהלים א), שֶׁלֹּא אָמַר מוֹרָשָׁה בֵּית יַעֲקֹב אוֹ זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב וְאָמַר קְהִלַּת יַעֲקֹב, לְרַמֵּז שֶׁיִּקָּהֲלוּ רַבִּים עֲלֵיהֶם וְתִהְיֶה הַתּוֹרָה לְעוֹלָם מוֹרָשָׁה לְיַעֲקֹב וּלְכָל הַנִּקְהָלִים עָלָיו, הֵם הַגֵּרִים הַנִּלְוִים עַל ה’ לְשָׁרְתוֹ וְנִסְפְּחוּ עַל בֵּית יַעֲקֹב, וְנִקְרְאוּ כֻּלָּם קְהִלָּתוֹ.
“Torah will always be an inheritance FOR YAAKOV and all those who gather around him.”3. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 91b) states that the inheritance of Torah was since ששת ימי בראשית, way before the birth – and certainly death – of Yaakov:
תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהילת יעקב מורשה היא לכל ישראל מששת ימי בראשית.These are just some points I thought of right away.
תן לחכם ויחכם עוד.—
A THOUGHT TO ANSWER YOUR SECOND QUESTION:
Hashem said אלקי יצחק during Yitzchak’s lifetime. Rashi asks (בראשית כח, יג), how can this be, לֹּא מָצִינוּ בַּמִּקְרָא שֶׁיִּחֵד הַקָּבָּ”ה שְׁמוֹ עַל הַצַּדִּיקִים בְּחַיֵּיהֶם לִכְתֹּב אֱלֹהֵי פְּלוֹנִי?
Rashi answers: כָּאן יִחֵד שְׁמוֹ עַל יִצְחָק, לְפִי שֶׁכָּהוּ עֵינָיו וְכָלוּא בַבַּיִת, וַהֲרֵי הוּא כְמֵת וְיֵצֶר הָרָע פָּסַק מִמֶּנּוּ, תַּנְחוּמָא – Yitzchak was different because his eyes became dimmed and he was confined to the house, he was like dead and the yetzer harah already left him.
Maybe, the same can be said about Yaakov: Since he is in a state SIMILAR to death (as Rashi writes: נדמה להם שהוא מת – he seemed dead to them), it is okay to say אלקי יעקב.
Again, this is just a thought.
תן לחכם ויחכם עוד.Coffee,
I would like to ask you a question (according to Rashi et al in the plain and pashut sense)
We say תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהילת יעקב the word מורשה (according what I heard at least) is that it means inheritance (and because we say קהילת יעקב it’s understood from יעקב) how can an alive person give over an inheritance, inheritance is only done after death?Additionally
Doesn’t it say Hashem doesn’t affix His name to a person while he’s alive? (Hashem said to Moshe “אלקי אביך” and the midrash says that’s how Moshe knew he passed away) yet Hashem says אלקי יעקבExcellent questions on Rashi and the other meforshim!
I suggest you look into it, find some nice answers, and maybe use this as a Dvar Torah or pilpul that you can deliver for parshas Vayechi.It is obviously unnecessary to point out that even if we have unanswered questions on a true talmid chacham (like Rashi et al), that doesn’t ch”v invalidate their pshat.
However, I’ll give some thoughts that may answer your questions:
THOUGHTS TO ANSWER YOUR FIRST QUESTION:
1. The idea of מורשה is mainly emphasizing the WAY that Yidden received Torah: Just as a yerusha is passed automatically to all the children, even a little baby, so to Torah belongs to every Jew just because he/she is Jewish (as the Rambam writes: כֶּתֶר תּוֹרָה הֲרֵי מֻנָּח וְעוֹמֵד וּמוּכָן לְכָל יִשְׂרָאֵל. שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (“תּוֹרָה צִוָּה לָנוּ משֶׁה מוֹרָשָׁה קְהִלַּת יַעֲקֹב”. כָּל מִי שֶׁיִּרְצֶה יָבוֹא וְיִטּל.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that we are getting Torah from a dead person. On the contrary, we are inheriting Torah FROM HASHEM.
2. קהלת יעקב does not necessarily imply an inheritance from Yaakov, for the Jewish people are called בני ישראל\כלל ישראל\בני יעקב\קהלת יעקב all the time, not necessarily referring to something that they have received from Yaakov himself.
Actually, the Ramban writes that מורשה קהלת יעקב means that Yaakov himself RECEIVES the inheritance as well:
וְדָרְשׁוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ (מדרש תהלים א), שֶׁלֹּא אָמַר מוֹרָשָׁה בֵּית יַעֲקֹב אוֹ זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב וְאָמַר קְהִלַּת יַעֲקֹב, לְרַמֵּז שֶׁיִּקָּהֲלוּ רַבִּים עֲלֵיהֶם וְתִהְיֶה הַתּוֹרָה לְעוֹלָם מוֹרָשָׁה לְיַעֲקֹב וּלְכָל הַנִּקְהָלִים עָלָיו, הֵם הַגֵּרִים הַנִּלְוִים עַל ה’ לְשָׁרְתוֹ וְנִסְפְּחוּ עַל בֵּית יַעֲקֹב, וְנִקְרְאוּ כֻּלָּם קְהִלָּתוֹ.
“Torah will always be an inheritance FOR YAAKOV and all those who gather around him.”3. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 91b) states that the inheritance of Torah was since ששת ימי בראשית, way before the birth – and certainly death – of Yaakov:
תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהילת יעקב מורשה היא לכל ישראל מששת ימי בראשית.These are just some points I thought of right away.
תן לחכם ויחכם עוד.—
A THOUGHT TO ANSWER YOUR SECOND QUESTION:
Hashem said אלקי יצחק during Yitzchak’s lifetime. Rashi asks (בראשית כח, יג), how can this be, לֹּא מָצִינוּ בַּמִּקְרָא שֶׁיִּחֵד הַקָּבָּ”ה שְׁמוֹ עַל הַצַּדִּיקִים בְּחַיֵּיהֶם לִכְתֹּב אֱלֹהֵי פְּלוֹנִי?
Rashi answers: כָּאן יִחֵד שְׁמוֹ עַל יִצְחָק, לְפִי שֶׁכָּהוּ עֵינָיו וְכָלוּא בַבַּיִת, וַהֲרֵי הוּא כְמֵת וְיֵצֶר הָרָע פָּסַק מִמֶּנּוּ, תַּנְחוּמָא – Yitzchak was different because his eyes became dimmed and he was confined to the house, he was like dead and the yetzer harah already left him.
Maybe, the same can be said about Yaakov: Since he is in a state SIMILAR to death (as Rashi writes: נדמה להם שהוא מת – he seemed dead to them), it is okay to say אלקי יעקב.
Again, this is just a thought.
תן לחכם ויחכם עוד.Donald trump is a fighter not a quitter
This only makes him strongerThis is true. It’s called middas haNetzach, the desire to win despite all odds. Obstacles only strengthen the fighting spirit.
Donald Trump has one value: Donald Trump. He is so wrapped up in himself
I think this is also true.
That doesn’t necessarily mean he would be bad at leading the country. He seemed good the first time around.
You mocked my recent post calling for honesty in the thread and implied that I’m a liar. Please provide an example of a lie I’ve told. Give post number date and time.
Oh, Qwerty. You’re a funny man sometimes.
Here’s what you wrote: “I enjoy healthy debate but both sides must play by the rules. These are the rules, AFAIC, complete honesty and respecting the opposing viewpoint as well as the opponent are required.”
I responded to that: “Qwerty, thanks, I laughed so hard when I read this! 😄”
Because I DID laugh! And I think anyone else who follows your posts would laugh along.
Now I am obligated to provide EVIDENCE for my laughter!? What a clown!
Lostspark,
Call me a child
I will:
You are being a child.Taking revenge on someone saying horrible things about your Rebbe by attacking their gadol is childish.
[Though I can’t say I wasn’t tempted to try that a few times to test the mods. I feel like there is a new mod is some sort of free speech absolutist, or just very lazy (which may explain 3 days with no posts earlier this week).]
Qwerty,
I challenge you to name a non Chabad Rabbi who takes that Chazal literally
Rashi, according to Artscroll (is Artscroll Chabad?). Rif. Iyun Yaakov. Etz Yosef.
Menachem Shmad (sic) accepts that Yakov Avinu is alive because it fits his agenda
I have no opinion on the matter. Why should I mix in to a machlokes of rishonim about the living state of Yaakov Avinu? אלו ואלו דברים אלקים חיים. I never took a side, and anyway, who am I to take a side between such great giants?
Qwerty,
So we have these 3 stooges who all reject plain Pshat
Who are the stooges exactly?
Are you (ch”v) referring to Rav Yochanan, Resh Lakish, Rav and Rav Kahana, all of whom differ from the view of Rava that you keep quoting (as I taught clearly and at length in my post from September 5, 9:54am)?
Or are you referring to the Maharal and Yaavetz who say that even Rava shouldn’t be taken literally?
Or are you referring to the (((Lubaaaaavitchers))), because you hate them, even when they side with all the aforementioned Torah sources?
And then YOU claim to be on the side of Torah? Preposterous!
Philosopher,
You asked a beautiful question from a posuk, but instead of searching for an answer, you made your own assumptions that led you to misinterpret meforshim.
Your question has already been asked and answered by the Ramban, as I have posted earlier and will post again:
ויגוע ויאסף. ומיתה לא נאמרה בו, ואמרו רבותינו יעקב אבינו לא מת, לשון רש”י. ולדעת רבותינו, הרי יעקב הזכיר מיתה בעצמו הנה אנכי מת והיה אלקים עמכם. ואולי לא ידע הוא בנפשו, או שלא רצה לתת כבוד לשמו. וכן ויראו אחי יוסף כי מת אביהם, כי להם מת הוא, או שלא ידעו הם בזה כלל.
“AND HE EXPIRED, AND WAS GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE. But the word “death” is not mentioned in his case. Our Rabbis therefore said, “Jacob, our father, did not die.” This is the language of Rashi.
Now according to this opinion of our Rabbis, the difficulty arises: Jacob applied the term “death” to himself, as it is written, “Behold, I die, but G-d shall be with you!”
Perhaps he did not know it himself, or it may be that he did not wish to pay honor to himself.
Similarly, with respect to the verse, “And when Joseph’s brethren saw that their father was dead,” we must say that to them he was dead, or it may be that they did not at all know of this.”In other words, the brothers “saw that there father died” because that is indeed what THEY SAW!
As Rashi write on Gemara, they buried him because TO THEM he seemed dead. But really, he was alive.
This also fits with Rashi’s pirush in Chumash on כי מת אביהם, that they FELT their father’s death because of how Yosef was treating them.
This has nothing to do with if Yaakov is truly alive, rather with the perception of Yaakov’s children.Qwerty,
The Gemara in Cheilek 111a says that events at the final redemption will mirror what occurred at Yetzias Mitzrayim. This is anathema for Chabad because the Rebbe rejected this Gemara.
I already proved that you ignored most of that page in Gemara which argues with that opinion.
Rav Yochanan said that Hashem is not happy from such words.
How dare you, a tiny ant who admits to not knowing how to learn, attack a gadol b’Yisroel for saying something that YOU didn’t understand in your ignorance, and I already clarified it to you!?let’s play out the following. A fellow arrives in the Bes Medrash some two thousand years ago. He doesn’t know very much and he asks a lot of seemingly childish questions.
Qwerty, I completely agree with you that it would be wrong to throw this person out. One should listen patiently and answer his questions.
What if, however, someone barges into the Bais Midrash and starts arguing that the meforshim don’t know what they’re talking about ch”v, and that a certain Gemara seems to contradict a certain posuk, and the rishonim are nutjobs ch”v.
Would it be wrong to call him an ignoramus?
This is the difference between a humble ignoramus who wants to learn, and an arrogant ignoramus who thinks they are always correct in their attacks against talmidei chachamim, despite not knowing how to learn Torah.
At the end of Shmiras HaLashon (Hilchos Rechilus 9:15), the Chofetz Chaim writes that the prohibitions against Lashon Hara and Rechilus do not apply to reshaim and kofrim and that it is, in fact, a mitzvah to mock such persons
UJM,
I would be very careful to research when and with whom these halachos apply.
Eliyahu Hanovi and Yeshayohu Hanovi were punished for speaking disparagingly about Jewish IDOL WORSHIPERS (the real kind) – because “אין הקב”ה רוצה במי שאומר דילטורייא על ישראל”.
(שהש”ר פ”א, ו (א). רש”י ישעי’ ו, ו. ועוד)The Rambam writes that if such great tzaddikim were punished, how much more so a קל מקלי העולם who dares to condemn so many Yidden as פושעים ורשעים וגויים ופסולי עדות וכופרים בה’ אלהי ישראל.
(אגרת השמד פ”ב)I would err on the side of speaking positively about Jews.
All Jews who are keeping torah and mitzvahs must love each other. There us no obligation to love open sinners.
Are you sure?
What about the Gemara: ברור לו מתה יפה – because of ואהבת לרעך כמך for someone who is חייב מיתת בית דין, i.e. ignored עדים והתראה!!!
Are you aware that there is much discussion on the matter?
Why are you so eager to ignore the entire שקלל וטריא and rule out loving sinners, especially in our generation when most sinners are אונסים who must be brought close with love (as the Rambam writes regarding תינוקות שנשבו, see also Chazon Ish יו”ד ח”ב טז)?
Philosopher,
What is relevant is whether it was the Tzedoikim, the Early Christians who were Jews, or the Christians and Messianic “Jews” today, the Keruim, Shabsi Tzvi and his followers, and all kinds of groups in history who tried/try to prove from Torah sources that their beliefs are true
Actually, they used pesukim to prove that תורה שבעל פה is false ch”v, exactly as YOU have done!
I, in the other hand, am defending the holy meforshim of תורה שבעל פה.
Lostspark, it’s childish to concentrate on the messenger.
Concentrate on the message.Yankel,
I completely agree.