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Hey mods ๐, are you still there?
@Participant directed an important post at you. Did you miss it?It is not rare for a sicko creep to baselessly accuse others of the very sins they themselves are guilty of.
Someone has been baselessly accusing Arso of terrible things for a while now, and this individual is starting to reveal his true colors, which are even darker than we initially thought.
I am increasingly surprised at the recent absolute lack of moderation on this platform, which has now descended from maniacal rhetoric to inyonim of hepech hatznius, r”l.
Wow, most posters here don’t seem to know the first thing about kiruv.
I thought you were openly a tichiyas-hameisim-first-nik, rather than a still-alive-nik if youโre catching my drift. Is that not correct?
You’re right, this conversation is irrelevant to the Rebbe. I haven’t voiced ANY opinion here about the Rebbe being alive or being Moshiach.
Philosopher started the conversation out of the blue, with this ignorant attack:
It is Lubavitche like you who twist everything out of context. For example when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie.
In a way I am happy about this discussion, because it led me to do more research into ืืขืงื ืื ืืช than I’ve ever done.
You claimed that Rashi is saying something different on the Gemorah. He is not. He is saying the exact same thing. But instead of saying โYaacov lo mesโ he is saying โlo mes-he chai lโoilumโ which is essentially the same thing.
If this is the only difference you saw in Rashi on Taanis then you have no idea what the entire discussion is about!
You clearly don’t even know what Rashi wrote in Taanis, and why Maharsha, Artscroll, et al understood him to mean literally.
Somejew, you haven’t answered my question. Is killing intrinsically bad or not?
the Ramban clearly concludes that Rashi saying Yaacov lo mes means he is spiritually alive.
No. He brings the ืืืืจ ืื”ื from Rashi. Then he gives his own interpretation of Chazal. His pirush has nothing to do with Rashi’s pirush specifically, and definitely not with Rashi on Shas (which is what we are discussing).
Honestly, I don’t think we even know which way the Ramban held, because his words here can be understood both ways (as opposed to Maharsha, Rashba, etc. who clearly hold that Yaakov is alive spiritually. And Rashi, Rif, etc. who clearly hold that Yaakov is alive physically).
Either way, the point is that your question is clearly answered, no matter what the Ramban held.
Mods, one of the posters is going to far. He was often censored in the past, and I think his posts should be reviewed.
Rashi is saying Yaacov lo mes.
Rashi (on Shas, which is what we’re discussing) did not say Yaakov Lo Mes. He was mefaresh the Gemara that said that, and in a way that clearly means that he physically didn’t die, as Rashi is understood by Maharsha and Artscroll and more.
The Chofetz Chaim says the above. Idol worshippers are apikorsom. You are bringing stories from Tanach to reach your own conclusion to disagree with the Chofetz Chaim? Or are you being misunderstood? Where in Shulchan Aruch does it say it is ever prohibited to condemn, mock or despise idol worshippers?
My point was that when speaking about Jews, one is playing with fire. Handle with care.
Somejew,
Question: Why can’t we use iron on the ืืืื? We are told it’s because iron is a tool of death. But isn’t it used for the killing of bad people? How can death itself be something bad, sometimes it is a very good a necessary thing?
Another question: Dovid Hamelech was not able to build the Beis Hamikdash because ืื ืืจืื ืฉืคืืช – Hashem didn’t want His house built by someone whose hands were filled with blood.
But wasn’t it the blood of wicked enemies of the Jews who deserved to be killed? What could negative about this?Yakov would not be โin a deep sleepโ because how didnโt the embalmers notice his breathing ?
And his pulse ?
It says they thought him being dead ?It could be that his brain was functioning bederech nes without oxygen supply, and that was the measure of life within his body.
Thats why it does not say vayamat.This is indeed a plausible explanation, I don’t know. I was just bringing how the meforshim explain the word ืืืืืข here.
In other words, the Ramban is questioning in the first part but his conclusion is that Yaacov lo mes means that his non-death is a spiritual matter.
Philosopher, this is the problem when you ignore the answer to your question for three weeks, and suddenly wake up to address it when you think you found a challenge.
In my original post where I brought the Ramban, I acknowledged your point, and it’s irrelevant to the discussion!
Here is part of my original post, with the part where I acknowledge your point in bold:
D) Your exellent question stands even if you learn ืืขืงื ืื ืืช spiritually: The fact is that Gemara calls Yaakov ืื ืืช, and Rashi on Chumash (and Tosfos in Gemara) proves it from the fact that the posuk doesnโt use the word ืืืชื regarding Yaakov, so how can it say ืืช ืืืืื!?
E) Ramban (who doesnโt necessarily interpret the Gemara physically) is bothered by the same question as you!
In other words: Your question is a question on the Chazal according to any pirush, physical or spiritual.
Ramban answers your question perfectly. It doesn’t matter if he is one of the meforshim who interpret it physically or not. The point is that your question has been asked and answered.
The answer works for all pirushim of Yaakov Lo Mes.This was the exact point I made originally with the Ramban, and you conveniently waited till everyone would forget this point before proposing your weak argument and pretending as if I ignored that part of Ramban.
P.S. The reason why I wrote “not necessarily” is because the last part of the Ramban is written in very vague and concise terms, so I’m not fully clear on his stance. However, even if he does hold that it is only spiritual, the answer still stand for Rashi et al, as I just explained.
one must be equally careful in both directions.
I’m not sure this is true. Chessed is an inherently good middah, though it can be used for bad. Achzariyus is an inherently bad middah, though it can be used for good.
It is definitely better to err on the side of chessed.
The issue with the Tzedoikim was that they interpreted Torah Shebchsav wrongly because they disregarded Torah Shebaal Peh entirely, not that they interpreted it wrong
What you are doing is, in a way, worse than the tzedokim. They only accepted the literal meaning of Torah Shebiksav and rejected Torah Shebaal Peh outright. You only accept the literal meaning of Torah Shebiksav yet twist Torah Shebaal Peh to fit your literal understanding.
Philosopher, if a woman touches a man inappropriately, should her hand be cut off?
If, based on Chazal, you answer no – my question is: How can Chazal “contradict” the clear meaning of the possuk (Devarim 25:12)?
Please answer this question. Should her hand be cut off or not.
Menachem Shmei refers to a Gemara as โobscure.โ
Obscure (not well known) for a child who just began learning Chumash.
What does it mean that Yaacov expired?
Why do you ignore the meforshim I brought who say ืืืืืข means a deep sleep?
A little further in the parsha it says that the brothers of Yosef saw that their father DIED with the loshen โmesโ.
But Rashi said that ืืืชื ืื ื ืืืจื ืื – it doesn’t use the term “death” regarding Yaakov!
Why do you ignore the Ramban I brought on that possuk who explained that the possuk is not saying that Yaakov died, rather that his sons SAW him as dead, as Rashi wrote ื ืืื ืืื ืฉืืื ืืช?
Would you criticize the IDF cook by saying: โWhy are you sitting comfortably in a safe room while other soldiers are risking their lives on the battlefield? Why arenโt you out there in danger, fighting alongside them?โ
Such an argument would be absurd. While combat may seem more heroic and demanding than working in the kitchen, if the cooks were to abandon their post and join the battle, the soldiers would starve!
The soldiers and the cooks are partners, each fulfilling a critical role in the war effort.
The same applies to Torah learners and physical fighters:
The ruchniyus aspect of the war is waged by those learning Torah in yeshiva, while the physical war is fought by the soldiers on the battlefield.
The Gemara says (Sanhedrin 49a):
ืืืืืื ืืื ืื ืขืฉื ืืืื ืืืืื ืืืืืืื ืืืื ืื ืขืกืง ืืื ืืชืืจื
Were it not for David [who engaged in Torah study], Joab would not have been able to wage war. And were it not for Joab [who fought the battles], David would not have been able to study Torah.If either side abandoned their responsibilities due to a desire to do the other’s role, it would endanger us all, ch”v.
Pikuach nefesh overrides Yehareig Vโal Yaavor and you know that.
Huh?
Instead of saying โJewish Boy Dies from Bullyingโ
it probably would have been better if I had said:
โJewish Boy Who was Victim of Bullying, has Diedโ.That is indeed a wise correction.
Bullying must be stoped, and strongly addressed.
No need to spread disinformation, especially of such magnitude.
Rashi or any mefoiresh on the Chumash is meant as explanation to the pesukim in the Chumash-they do not contradict the Chumash. If they appear to contradict a pesuk in the Chumash you are interpreting the mefoiresh wrong.
Or you are interpreting the chumash wrong, like the tzedokim did?
In our case, the meforshim who hold that Yaakov is physically alive are very clear (you only read Rashi, not any of the others whom I referenced).
You have a question from a posuk, and Ramban there answers. End of story. There is no contradiction between Torah Sebiksav and Shebaal Peh here.
Again, saying that one should always change the pshat of a clear Chazal/meforash to fit the literal meaning of a posuk (especially one which was already discussed and answered by meforshim) will usually lead one to Karaism (as we see from a poster who recently joined this thread).
Itโs very concerning that not one person here properly understood anything I said.
Happy,
I can attest, I didn’t understand anything you said.
The Bible Academy you went to must have had a different yeshivishe shprach than the Yeshiva I went to.
There is a Sefer called ืจืฉืดื ืืคืฉืืื (itโs a Chumash with rashi and an explanation on rashi) that brings a Gemara in bava basra that says it doesnโt say ืืืชื by ืืื ืืืื because his son Shlomo followed in his footsteps and the same could be said here
Coffee,
1. It is not Rashi’s derech in his pirush in chumash to be understood based on an obscure Gemara. He writes his pirush assuming a child will read it and understand it at face value.
2. Even if you want to say that this is Rashi’s intention in his pirush on Vayechi, it is bipashtus not able to be his intention in his pirush on Taanis where he adds the part of ื ืืื ืืื etc.
The main discussion in this thread is regarding Rashi’s pirush in Taanis.
[And, as I have demonstrated in an earlier post, Rashi’s pirush on chumash need not match his pirush in Shas.]
ARSo is crazy if he thinks Hashem has any place for someone whoโs not only a liar but he attacks those who disagree with him only to end up admitting we were right. If he was actually a Gemara teacher we can only imagine the percentage of boys who went OTD. Now Shmei and Benedict have officially formed an alliance. Itโs a beautiful thing a modern day Hitler Stalin pact.
MODS? MODS?
Is this Twitter?
First he was arguing with me that Yacov wasnโt buried. When I showed him that the posuk says that Yacov was buried, he backtracked.
Of course, you never pointed out a SINGLE post where I insinuated that Yaakov wasn’t buried. Not a SINGLE one. Because I NEVER said that.
The same thing is now happening with Arso. First he argues on the entire thread that Yacov is PHYSICALLY alive
I haven’t seen a SINGLE POST where ARSo said that Yaakov is physically alive. He said that RASHI holds that Yaakov is alive.
If you don’t provide the posts where ARSo said I said those things you claim we said – you are a LIAR.
Call me an Apikorus.
Sure: You, Happy New Year, are an apikorus.
(Or, hopefully, a poor Jew who received a very very poor Jewish education).Why? This is what you wrote:
“Saying Chazer will be mutar is against the Torah. Period. I donโt CARE who said that. Including Chazal. Chazal, like the Neviim and Ksuvim, have NO right to contradict the Torah.
This is why Ruchniyus is so evil and why the Torah WARNS us against the SEDUCTION of Ruchniyus, and how we should only focus on Gashmiyus.”Rambam regarding one who denies Torah Shebal Peh: ืึตืึทืึทืจ ืฉืึถื ึผึดืชึฐืคึผึทืจึฐืกึตื ืฉืึถืืึผื ืึผืึนืคึตืจ ืึผึทืชึผืึนืจึธื ืฉืึถืึผึฐืขึทื ืคึผึถื [ืืึนืจึดืืึดืื ืืึนืชืึน] ืึฐืึนื ืึทืขึฒืึดืื ืึทืึฒืจึตื ืืึผื ืึผึดืฉืึฐืึธืจ ืึผึธื ืึธืึถืคึผึดืืงืึนืจืึนืกึดืื ืึฐืึธืืึนืึฐืจึดืื ืึตืื ืชึผืึนืจึธื ืึดื ืึทืฉึผืึธืึทืึดื ืึฐืึทืึผืึนืกึฐืจึดืื ืึฐืึทืึผืึผืึธืจึดืื. ืฉืึถืึผึธื ืึตืึผืึผ ืึตืื ึธื ืึผึดืึฐืึทื ืึดืฉืึฐืจึธืึตื ืึฐืึตืื ืฆึธืจึดืืึฐ ืึนื ืึฐืขึตืึดืื ืึฐืึนื ืึทืชึฐืจึธืึธื ืึฐืึนื ืึผึทืึผึธื ึดืื [ืึถืึผึธื ืึผึธื ืึทืืึนืจึตื ืึถืึธื ืึตืึถื ืขึธืฉืึธื ืึดืฆึฐืึธื ืึผึฐืืึนืึธื ืึฐืึตืกึดืืจ ืึทืึผึดืึฐืฉืืึนื]:
(In the next halacha, the Rambam writes that this din does not apply to those who grew up without a proper upbringing and don’t know better. I hope you are part of that category.)
Oh. And by the way. The whole PURPOSE of Mashiach is to RESTORE the Torah (ืืืจืื ืคืจืง ื)
Correct, to restore the ENTIRE Torah, which includes Torah Shebiksav and Torah Shebal Peh (ืชืืจื ืืคืืจืืฉื ื ืืชื ื).
As the Rambam writes regarding Moshiach: ืึฐืึดื ืึทืขึฒืึนื ืึถืึถืึฐ ืึดืึผึตืืช ืึผึธืึดื ืืึนืึถื ืึผึทืชึผืึนืจึธื ืึฐืขืึนืกึตืง ืึผึฐืึดืฆึฐืึนืช ืึผึฐืึธืึดื ืึธืึดืื. ืึผึฐืคึดื ืชึผืึนืจึธื ืฉืึถืึผึดืึฐืชึธื ืึฐืฉืึถืึผึฐืขึทื ืคึผึถื.Who cares who / if Mashiach is? As long as he / she RESTORES the Torah and Israel ืืืช ืืืืื.
“SHE”: Again, kefira in ืชืืจื ืฉืืขื ืคื.
Rambam: ืึตืื ืึทืขึฒืึดืืึดืื ืึดืฉึผืึธื ืึผึฐืึทืึฐืืึผืช ืฉืึถื ึผึถืึฑืึทืจ (ืืืจืื ืื ืื) “ืขึธืึถืืึธ ืึถืึถืึฐ” ืึฐืึนื ืึทืึฐืึผึธื. ืึฐืึตื ืึผึธื ืึฐืฉืึดืืืึนืช ืฉืึถืึผึฐืึดืฉืึฐืจึธืึตื ืึตืื ืึฐืึทื ึผึดืื ืึผึธืึถื ืึถืึผึธื ืึดืืฉื.P.S. Regarding what it means that the chazzir will be kosher, there is much discussion. All agree that Torah does not change when Moshiach comes. Will the physical characteristic of the chazzir change? Does the possuk itself hint that the chazzir will change and become kosher? Does it mean that the tumah will leave the chazzir, but it will still be forbidden to eat? Does this apply to other animals as well, or only the pig?
This is a great discussion amongst gedolei Yisroel since the rishonim. Whatever the case, making this sound like a “Chabad kefira” just because a Lubavitcher sefer happened to quote this famous statement in the name of Chazal (“ืขืชืื ืืืืจ ืืืืืจ”) is ludicrous.
A comment I posted on a Jewish news website that posted the story of the child whose death was “triggered by bullying”:
Bullying is a terrible, terrible thing that can break a child.
Death is a terrible, terrible thing that can break a family.
But do you know what can break an entire class, an entire school, or even an entire community? ืืืฆืืช ืฉื ืจืข.
Did the author investigate thoroughly to confirm that this tragic death was indeed caused by bullying and not an unrelated birth defect?
Did the author verify that the child left the bar mitzvah because he was bullied by his peers, and not because he was yelled at by a photographer?
Isnโt it necessary to conduct proper research before publicly accusing an entire class of murder right after they’ve lost a classmate?
This is something to seriously consider.
May the family be comforted, and may we suffer no more pain with the coming of Geula.
Q1, So if Yaakov is alive, even though we cant understand in what way, how does it help the discussion here about Chabad? Q2, Where does Chabad get the idea LR can be alive? Q3, What source do they have that its even possible in our days? Q4, What source is there for LR specifically?
You’re right, the discussion has nothing to do with Chabad.
It started when Philosopher exposed her ignorance to all by opening this discussion with the following post:
“It is Lubavitche like you who twist everything out of context. For example when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie.”
This is reminiscent of the time when Qwerty thought that chazzir becoming kosher when Moshiach comes was some kind of Chabad “kefira” ๐คญ.
For the past two weeks Benedict ARSo has been pounding away that he agrees with his Rebbe Shmei that Yaakov Avinu is alive because he follows Rashiโs Pshat
I think ARSo’s point was that he doesn’t follow any pshat about if Yaakov is physically alive or not. He doesn’t have an opinion about Yaakov’s death, and why should it make a difference to him anyways?
He is just quoting the opinions of Rashi vs Maharsha.
He has no reason to take a side.
I can say the same for myself. I don’t know if Yaakov is alive; who am I, a tiny ant, to put myself in between a machlokes of great rishonim?
What I DO know is what the rishonim themselves hold, and I will not accept anyone misinterpreting their opinions.Which opinion is right?
ืืื ืืืื ืืืจืื ืืืงืื ืืืื, ืชืฉืื ืืชืจืฅ ืงืืฉืืืช ืืืืืขืืืชMenachem: Iโm not sure what youโre objecting to. I simply quoted the Chofetz Chaim verbatim. Are you disagreeing with the Chofetz Chaim?
I was very clear:
“I would be very careful to research when and with whom these halachos apply.”Because many GREAT tzaddikim were punished in the past for speaking negatively about IDOLATERS.
We must be very careful in the proper way to apply these halachos, and to whom.
At least Benedict ARSo answered our challenge… There is no way he was ever a Rebbe because such an arrogant jerk wouldnโt last a day. Heโs probably an escepee from a psych ward… Oh yeah heโs a high level Torah teacher. What a joke. Boy you can say anything on line if you donโt believe in Hashem.
Mods!
Although I strongly disagree with ARSo on most Lubavitch matters, I respect him as a level-headed poster and contributor to the CR. This inflammatory vitriol by Qwerty is completely out of hand and unacceptable.
In the past, Qwerty’s posts were ALWAYS censored, and we didn’t know why. Now that the (new?) mods have stopped censoring posts, his disgusting rhetoric can be seen for all.
If we wanted a fully uncensored forum where we can attack each other like children in a disgusting fashion, we could use Twitter instead.
Mods, please consider this. Thank you.
Q1, what does it mean, how is it different from being dead?
Check the meforshim (Rif, Iyun Yaakov, Etz Yosef, Ohr Hachayim) who explain it at length. You probably still won’t fully understand because it’s something completely supernatural beyond out understand. Ask Eliyahu Hanovi to explain it when Moshiach comes.
Q2, who is authority enough to say that if Yaakov aveinu can get to lo meis status then we can say the same about the LR?
No one said that in this thread. Completely unrelated to this discussion about Yaakov Avinu.
Do not be bamboozled by the Chabad missionaries who twist classical Torah teachings into a pretzel to make them appear as supporting Chabad Meshichist delusions.
Also: Do not be bamboozled by the Anti-Chabad missionaries who twist classical Torah teachings into a pretzel to make them appear as opposing a Torah-based statement that a Lubavitcher happened to make.
Truth. Truth. Truth.
Torah. Torah. Torah.if you have a Rabbi or talmud chuchem saying that Yacov lo mes means that Yacovโs guf is alive n his kever then post the rabbiโs name on this thread or the other one. (Still) Awaiting your response.
Sure: Rashi, Rif, Iyun Yaakov, Etz Yosef, Ohr Hachayim, Artscroll.
He believes that Yacov Avinu is PHYSICALLY alive simply because of the words that Rashi writes โYacov lo mesโ.
Rashi didn’t wrote that, the Gemara did. Rashi explained the Gemara in different words that are quite clear. Even Artscroll understands.
when i say that Rashi is not contradicting a bโfesrishe posuk in Veyechi which proves that Yacov mes
Which the Ramban (Nachmanodies, ever heard of him? BIG rabbi) answers why it’s not a contradiction. You are clearly SCAAAARED of checking this Ramban. Why?
P.S. Funny that we are even having this discussion when you ADMIT that NOT ONCE have you even learned this Rif/Iyun Yaakov/Etz Yosef/Ohr Hachaim/Artscroll to see for yourself.
All your “claims” come from shiurim you watched, yet you attack OTHERS for using online talking points.OP,
Once you’re pulling out some old Qwerty-related posts, here’s something related that I wrote to him last year (after he “accused” Chabad of “claiming” that chazir will be kosher when Moshiach comes ๐คฏ):
“I advise you to get off the internet and open some Jewish books. Start learning from the basics before accusing others.
P.S. To the other posters: Obviously, I will not generalize and say that all litvishers are like this, since I know from the coffeeroom that most of you are very knowledgeable in many areas of Torah despite our various disagreements.”
And from another post:
“Even here in the CR, there are many posters whom I may disagree with on many issues, yet I consider them very normal and bright.
There are some other posters (I have one recent poster particularly in mind) whom I consider completely nuts (at least they provide comic relief).”Qwerty: To that point Bli Neder Iโm out of the thread.
Also Qwerty (3 days later): Itโs my sage advice that you cease and desist from any discussions with Benedict ARSo and the primordial serpent because neither has any interest in the truth.
Also Qwerty (one day later): You see how quiet Shmei is.
And finally, we have some serious projecting over here:
He has no beliefs other than an insatiable thirst to throw his weight around. I once heard a Rabbi discuss such โpeople.โ โYes itโs unpleasant to deal with them for an hour a day, but remember they have to live with themselves on a constant basis.โ Iโm sure heโs universally reviled. His poor wife assuming she didnโt leave him.Whoa, are you losing it?
Qwerty, if there is anything I can do to help you in your personal struggles, let me know, I’ll be happy to help.
@Menachem Shmei Because DovidHamelech is God.
I repeat: Why must we be subject to Dovidโs trollish ramblings?
P.S.
Thanks mods taking care of this last time.I will not continue arguing with people who deny what it says outright in the Chumash… They donโt understand how to understand pesukim, Chazal and meforshim which only SEEM on the surface to contradict the pesukim
Philosopher be like:
“If someone knocks out a tooth, the Gemara/Rishonim/Achronim say that he must PAY for the tooth. However, this seems to contradict an outright posuk, “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.”
Rather, we must reinterpret the Gemara and poskim – when they said PAY, they really mean that you should knock out the person’s tooth. “Pay” was just a euphemism.
After all, pesukim must be taken literally while Gemara/meforshim must be interpreted figuratively to fit with the posuk.
Also, I’m not a Karaite.”Square Root,
I’m also wondering if OP has a source for that incendiary statement, but I found some sources that are SIMILAR (but don’t actually say that greeting is BETTER than tzedaka):
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch:
ืืกืืจ ืืืืืืจ ืืช ืืขื ื ืฉืฉืื ืจืืงื… ืืื ืืื ืืืื ืืืื ืื ืืืชื ืื, ืคืืกืื ืืืืจืื.Brochos 6b:
ืื ืฉืืืืข ืืืืจื ืฉืืื ืจืืื ืืืชื ืื ืฉืืื ืืงืืื ืื ืฉืืื… ืืื ื ืชื ืื ืืื ืืืืืจ ื ืงืจื ืืืื ืฉื ืืืจ ืืืชื ืืขืจืชื ืืืจื ืืืืช ืืขื ื ืืืชืืื.Best source I found – Bava Basra 9b:
ืื ืื ืืชื ืคืจืืื ืืขื ื ืืชืืจื ืืฉืฉ ืืจืืืช, ืืืืคืืืกื ืืืืจืื ืืชืืจื ืืืืช ืขืฉืจื ืืจืืืช.
And according to Tosfos there, the ืืคืืืกื did not give any money.But obviously, we can all greet people with a smile AND give tzedaka.
Philosopher,
it says outright in the Chumash that the brothers of Yosef saw their father DIED, and other pesukim that openly show that Yaacov died.
Why do you claim to be interested in the truth of Torah, when you ignore the fact that I answered this question five times:
The Ramban asks the same question, how can the Torah say ืืช ืืืืื if ืืขืงื ืื ืืช, and he gives an answer!I brought this Ramban several times, yet you ignored it completely, continuing with your nonsense (apikursus?) – challenging the Ramban, Rashi, Rif, etc.
They donโt understand how to understand pesukim, Chazal and meforshim which only SEEM on the surface to contradict the pesukim that say that Yaacov died
The difference between us is that I looked up all the sources that you used to challenge Rashi et al and answered them, while you haven’t read any of the Torah sources that I referenced, instead basing your entire view on articles on the internet, and therefore you didn’t have a single proof for your mistake.
Why should I waste my time with people who want to believe that Yaacov Avinue is physically alive, that his body is breathing while buried under the ground, that heโs eating and his bodily functions are working while at the same time being his body is in his kever not being able to move?
Instead of learning the meforshim and perhaps admitting that you were wrong, you close your ears and scream like a child. You mock and ridicule the words of our holy rishonim, and then you attack OTHERS for being “against” Torah!
How can I debate with you about the intricacies of Chabad ideology, when you won’t even accept the truth of ืชืืจื ืฉืืขื ืคื!?
Why must we be subject to Dovid’s trollish ramblings?
Those three groups till now donโt escalate the war, because they are afraid to fight Israel in a full-fledged war, without this occurrence. If they wouldnโt be afraid, they would have already done so.
Israel must KEEP them afraid.
Every terrorist already knows that they could be killed by Israel. It hasnโt stopped any of them till now. and these pagers exploding wonโt stopping them in the future either.
I feel like this whole “Arabs love death” thing is a bit exaggerated. I’m sure that many terrorists feel that they can get away with shooting rockets into another country and there is a chance that they’ll get away with it alive. When all of them start exploding in their living rooms, that starts to make them nervous about every step they take. I don’t think anyone, even “death-loving terrorists” could live with a real feeling that every step they take could be their last because their phone/microwave/earbud/doorbell etc. might explode in their face.
Coffee,
Thanks for the civil discussion.
In regards to your question as to why Hashem would do this miracle of ืืขืงื ืื ืืช:
This question has bothered all of the meforshim, and this is whether or not they took it to refer to physically or not – what is this unique limmud about Yaakov not dying, as opposed to other tzaddikim? (Regarding other tzaddikim it says ืืืืชืชื ืงืจืืื ืืืื. Why does Yaakov have a possuk that teaches even more – that he didnโt die?)
You can learn the meforshim on Chumash and Gemara for all of their explanations.
Many explain this in connection with the idea of ืืืชื ืฉืืื, since there was no ืคืกืื in his ืืจืข that caused a stronger level of eternity for him.
There is also the idea that he was ืืืืจ ืฉืืืืืช who was so saturated with Torah, that the eternity of Torah rubbed of on him.
Some explain that this was really the entire discussion at the seuda, Rav Nachman and Rav Yitzchak were debating the Torah perspective on how we look at nature vs Torah.
That’s connected to the first part of the discussion about the physical dangers of speaking divrei Torah at a seuda, etc.ืืื ืืื ืืืงืื ืืืืจืื.
Qwerty,
As for Rav Gigiโs comment I found it on line and he quotes the Ohr Hachaim as understanding Yaakov Lo Med non literally
Well, it’s a mistake. The Ohr Hachaim is available for anyone to read.
And to think that I was the one being attacked for believing what I read online without checking the sources ๐
It doesn’t make a difference if you find other meforshim who say that it’s non literal. That’s not the discussion. The question was if any meforshim say that it IS literal, and the answer is yes.
Rabbi Sacks said that the Rebbe studied Hitler
You are being completely dishonest, as I explained several times in my posts. The Rebbe never studied ymsh.
Of course, you will keep repeating it because honesty means nothing to you.Chabad considers themselves superior to all other Jews.
Not themselves, rather their derech, as I explained before, and YOU quoted so beautifully from Rav Avigdor Miller.
In addition the Rebbeโs goal was to conquer the world.
ืืชืงื ืขืืื ืืืืืืช ืฉื”ื. ืืืืชื ืืืฉื ืืืืืื.
The Rebbe was really into spreading Judaism and G-dliness, to bring the world under G-d’s sovereignty.You admit that Shmei brings phony sources to prove the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Huh? When did I ever try to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach?
Second please tell me where Artscroll says that Rashi holds Yaakov Lo Mes literally. I will certainly check it out and if youโre correct Iโll acknowledge as much.
Qwerty, why do you attack me without even reading my posts!?
I sourced the Artscroll at least three times!
Here goes again (let’s see you acknowledge. I highly doubt you will, but won’t be the first time you were dishonest):
Artscroll Taanis 5B fn. 18:
โSince this verse proves that Jacob is still alive, we must conclude that Jacob only appeared to be dead to those who embalmed him (Rashi). Other commentators explain Jacobโs immortality not as a prolongation of physical life but as a form of continued spiritual existence (see Maharsha).โYesterday coffee addict checkmated Yaakov Lo Meis.
Well said.
He challenged a Gemara (according to Rashi et al).
I defended it.[Biden: We finally beat Medicare.
Trump: He did beat Medicare. He beat it to death.]What does Shmei do? He tries to fend off my challenge and he โforgetsโ coffeeโs proof.
What did I forget? I gave a beautiful answer to support Rashi et al. If you believe in ืชืืจื ืฉืืขื ืคื, you should be very happy with me.