Menachem Shmei

>>>ended up with some Satmar chassidim pinning down a Chabad Rabbi and cutting off his beard. Why? Because he’d been hired to tutor a Satmar kid, and instead of teaching him the subjects he was being paid to, he started teaching him about Chabad, and why Chabad was preferable to Satmar.

If you want to argue with Chabad ideology, fine. But how dare you fabricate the details of a story to blame the victim!?

I will clarify the story(s) for the sake of the readers. I would like to preface that I’m not chas v’Shalom trying to besmirch Satmar, especially since much has changed since then, rather I’m just setting historical facts straight.

It is accepted in Chabad (since the times of the Alter Rebbe) to give shiurim in chassidus (especially Tanya) to non Lubavitchers (similar to how Breslovers spread the Torah of Rabbi Nachman).

Several esteemed mashpiim were especially know for busying themselves with this, including Reb Yoel Kahn and Reb Pinye Korf. They would often go to Williamsburg and Borough Park where there were arranged shiurim of people who were interested in learning chassidus (the whole idea of being hired to be a tutor is completely fabricated!).
Since Satmar had already started to have tensions with Lubavitch since the Entebbe story in the 70s (they falsely accused Chabad of being Zionist because the Rebbe praised Hashem for the miracle), these shiurim often had to happen in secret.

In Sivan 5743, Reb Pinye Korf a”h (an incredible talmid chacham and oved Hashem) was asked to give a shiur chassidus in Williamsburg.

In middle of the shiur, some satmar chassidim burst in on him and beat him. When they reached for his beard, he begged them to kill him instead, as long as they wouldn’t touch his beard. They cut his beard off.
—
Reb Mendel Vechter was a satmar talmid chacham who had questions in chassidus. He became acquainted with Reb Yoel Kahn, and they started in chavrusa in learning chabad chassidus.
Slowly, he became closer to Chabad, while keeping this a secret, lest he become a victim of Satmar violence.

On 9 Tammuz 5743, a few weeks after the incident with Reb Pinye, Reb Mendel Vechter was on his way to Shachris, and several Satmar chassidim pulled him into a car and broke his bones with clubs, stabbed him, cut off his beard and payos, and cut his throat.
They threw him from the car, and left him bloody and naked to die on the street.
B”H, he was saved by an African American who found him.

This is the true story.

Again, I am not accusing Satmar as a whole for these atrocities, but please don’t trivialize the attack and blame Chabad for this. Unbelievable chutzpa.

>>>please clarify what you meant when you said that Israeli Lubavichers, as compared to their American counterparts, are extremists.

I think I was clear enough in my previous posts.

Ehrlich,

I think you summed up the view of those who say yechi quite accurately.

All of the “alive physically” Lubavitchers that I know (which are many) go to the ohel quite often, and don’t believe in all the current dollars nonsense etc.

I’ve personally never had an honest discussion with the more extreme Lubavitchers, since they are all Israeli, and also many don’t have much of a head on their shoulders for intellectual discussion.

>>>We do not want him to start believing that Lubavitch is the best way to serve Hashem, and that any other group, especially Litivish, missing out.

I would think the opposite. He should only join Chabad if he feels that it is the best way of serving Hashem. If he lacks nothing in his avoda now, why should he change?
The moment I find a derech that I feel serves Hashem better than Chabad, I will join.

A good sign to see if he’s moving in the right direction is to monitor the outcome of his joining chabad. If he adds more in his learning, keeping halacha, middos, and serving Hashem – that means he’s in a good place.
If chas v’shalom he decreases in the above, you have a problem.

The main thing is: For more advice, talk to a real life Lubavitchers who you know and trust. And for the Litvisher perspective, talk to a real life Litvisher rov who knows your family personally.

(Asking about Chabad on a Jewish forum is equivalent to asking about Jews on a public forum (l’havdil). If you try you’ll see what I mean. For all those who may attack this statement, I’m obviously not comparing practically, just an example to bring out a point)

>>>He [seemingly] defended those who believe the Rebbe is alive at the front of 770

I said that I can’t deny that there are people who believe so, and “So what?”

Because this question had nothing to do with the discussion.

Allow me to summarize the discussion one more time:

Yserbius asked a question: Chabad tends to deny many accusations against them, claiming that virtually no Lubavitchers hold of these beliefs.
Yet, we find many Lubavitchers who say the Rebbe is Moshiach, alive, etc.

I responded that no one denies that there are many Lubavitchers with these beliefs that you mentioned.
What they DO deny is the horrific accusation (by the likes of David Berger) that there is some grand avoda zorah worship going on in Chabad, with people davening to the Rebbe and saying “yechi boreinu” and other nonsense, ch”v.

Then Yserbius claimed that there are literally Chabad houses and shuls in high positions that have huge pictures of the Rebbe in front of shul – impliying that there is some sort of grand worship going on in Chabad shuls during davening (ch”v).

However, Yserbius couldn’t name a single one, just remembering that somewhere in Tzvas there was a shul like this.

Yserbius then asked me: “Can you state with absolute honesty that no one davening in 770 believes him to still be sitting in his chair up front? Or that there’s no significant amount of Chabadskers that have their Rebbe in mind when davening Shmoneh Esrei?”

My answer to the first question was “No. So what?” because it had nothing to do with my point.
My answer to the second question was yes, I can definitely deny this accusation.
This was the point I was making all along.

I don’t mind ideological debates, but don’t make false accusations and exaggerate matters from something you (or even I) disagree with (and even consider tipshus) to literal avoda zorah.

Neville,

I’m referring specifically to the actual shul. It is not appropriate to place a picture of a man on the wall that everyone faces for shmone esrei, and I’ve never seen this done.

Yserbius is claiming that Chabad houses place a picture of the Rebbe up front so that everyone can focus on him during davening. I’ve heard this “fact” from many non-Lubavitchers, but never seen it in Lubavitch.

Yserbius,

>>>I’ve been to maybe seven in my life. I know of one that has a picture of their Rebbe front and center. By simple logic it’s highly unlikely that this is the only one and I happen to have stumbled on to it.

I’ve been to hundreds of Chabad shuls and NEVER seen such a thing.
Either one of us is lying, or you saw the yotzei min haklal.
This is מילתא דעבידא לגלויי – walk around, I’m sure you can find dozens of Chabad shuls near you. Check them out. I challenge you to find one.

>>>There are people in authority in Chabad (you know their names) who have gone on record saying things like…

See, this was my point. People like you and David Breger love to claim that all Chabad shuls practice outright AZ and the children our taught to daven to a picture of the Rebbe ch”v.
As soon as its shown that this is nonsense, they revert to endless arguments about ambiguous statements that they decided to twist as sounding avoda zoradik.
These arguments will never end, because they are nuanced arguments on interpreting deep philosophical ideas.

For example, you bring “telling people to ask bakoshois of a dead man at his kever” as some sort of terrible sin of avoda zorah, while this is a widely accepted minhag yisroel with many great poskim to rely on.

All I ask is that you continue attacking chabad for the nuanced philosophical problems you have with them, and stop falsely accusing them behavior that every Yid agrees is sinful.

As a matter of fact, this was exactly my point in the original post, and I post it again for emphasis.

You asked that on one hand Lubavitchers claim that there aren’t really any Elokistim, at the same time, we find many Lubavitchers making these extreme statements.

This was my response:

Lots of terms can be understood differently by different people, and that’s where most arguments happen (i.e. both sides usually agree, but don’t understand each other).
The idea of “עצמות ומהות ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף” – whatever it means – is a direct quote from the Rebbe, so I don’t think any Lubavitcher would deny this. The idea of asking brochos from the Rebbe is also accepted in all circles of Chabad.
What these ideas mean is up for lots of discussion and have indeed been topics of endless debate in the CR.

What I think a Lubavitcher means when he denies that there is such a thing as Elokist is, in simple, unambiguous words:
I have never met a Lubavitcher who has the Rebbe in mind when davening shmoneh esrei, or says “Yechi Boreinu” (I’ve met plenty who say Yechi adoneinu moreinu v’rabeinu melech hamoshiach leolam vaed, but I’ve never ever heard or seen “boreinu” ch”v).
I mentioned once in the CR that I’ve only heard of one yungerman (baal teshuva) who espouses these views, and he’s shunned by all (including by extreme, flag waving, yechi yarmulka wearing bochurim).

Yserbius,

>>>At least one in Tzfat. Can’t say the specifics, because I don’t recall.

You wrote that there are “literally” chabad houses and shuls like this, and quite a few of the people are in “massive positions of authority.”

Then, you send me to some unnamed location somewhere in Tzvas – home of the crazies (of Chabad and non-Chabad).
Honestly, I must agree. It is quite possible that somewhere in Tzvas this exists. Still waiting for an official Chabad House that I can contact, let alone one that is in massive positions of authority.

>>>Can you state with absolute honesty that no one davening in 770 believes him to still be sitting in his chair up front?

No. So what?

>>>Or that there’s no significant amount of Chabadskers that have their Rebbe in mind when davening Shmoneh Esrei?

Yes. I can state this with absolute honesty.

Avram,

This is my assumption as well.

However, we were all informed here in the CR that:
“there are literally Chabad houses and synagogues with a giant picture up on the mizrach vant. And quite a few people who do these sorts of things are in massive positions of authority.”

I expect Yserbius to either name some Chabad Houses (which is not lashon horah since it is l’toeles – I will personally try to address the issue.)
Or, admit that he was mistaken and retract his statement.

I’m still waiting.

Ysurbius,

I honestly request that you name the Chabad Houses that you’ve seen with a picture of the Rebbe on mizrach vant, because something like this is a huge issue that must be addressed (and can be addressed if they are official shluchim under merkos).

Thanks.

Avram,

>>>Curious as to why you chose to describe the point as not honest as opposed to incorrect or mistaken.

Unintentional

>>>Notkin, from what I’ve read, helped in getting the baal hatanya released

This is indeed true, but about a later time:

After his encounter with the Alter Rebbe, Notkin completely changed his relationship with chassidim, and he used his government connections to assist in releasing the Alter Rebbe from his second arrest two years later. (His assistance was on condition that the Alter Rebbe meet with three gedolei hamisnagdim, which he indeed did.)

Avram,

>>>the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles? . . . And the idea that being questioned by another Jew is equivalent to being victimized. R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT”L encountered strong opposition to some of his rulings (e.g., chalav stam) from chassidishe rebbes, and some of their disciples even behaved rudely towards him, but the Jews who opposed him were not enshrined in American Litvak lore as being villains.

I must say, this is not a very honest comparison.
This was not a case of “being questioned by another Jew” or people “behaving rudely toward him.”
The Alter Rebbe is known to have had great debates and dialogue with the misnagdim.

In this case, the Alter Rebbe was just released from prison, where he was arrested for treason (death sentence r”l) because of a libel by the misnagdim, of which Reb Noteh Notkin was very outspoken and instrumental.
To be released from prison, only to be transferred to the home of this man who used this as an opportunity to (verbally) attack him for three hours straight is understandably an incredible tzar.

I’m not sure if I fully understand it, but this is what the Rebbe Rayatz said in the name of his father about why the Alter Rebbe was so pained by being in the house of the misnaged (שיחת י”ט כסלו תרצ”ג):
“הגאולה היתה בעת תפלת מנחה, ואותן הג’ תפלות של אותו המעת לעת היו עמדו הבעש”ט והרב המגיד נ”ע, ואותן הג’ שעות שישב בבית דירת המנגד כידוע, הי’ לו אז צער גדול יותר מכל המאסר, כי לאחר שכבר נצח הענין – כי ישיבתו במאסר הי’ ענין רוחני (היינו על רוחניות הענינים) וכאשר הענין נצח – הרי עניני גופו הק’ לא היו נוגעים לו, דאס האט דאך אים ניט גיארט, היינט זיין אין איינעם מיטן מגיד, און הערין דעם בעל שם, קאן מען זיך משער זיין, אז דעם רבי’ן האט ניט גיארט להתעכב עוד ג’ שעות ועוד יום שלם, ובכן כאשר בשרוהו כי חפשי הוא, לא חפץ ללכת משם.”

ובמ”א מבואר: “ובהיותו עם המגיד, ובשמעו את הבעש”ט, מובן גודל הצער ללכת משם לאיזה בית, ועוד לביתו של מנגד!”

>>>I once heard from a Chabad source that he was freed before yud tes Kislev

Although it is know simply as “Yud Tes Kislev” – Chabad actually celebrates Yud Tes & Chof Kislev.

The reason: The Alter Rebbe was released from prison late afternoon on Yud Tes Kislev, but he was accidentally brought to the house of a fierce misnaged (Notkin – whom I mentioned earlier) who spent three hours screaming at the Alter Rebbe with all of his taanos against chassidus (though he indeed offered him tea).

It was only that night (Chof Kislev) that the chassidim found out where the Alter Rebbe was and brought him back, so Chof Kislev is also celebrated.