Menachem Shmei

>>>Find one place where rhe rishonim say “so and so was a navi”

Tosfos often quote one of the Baalei Hatosfos: ומיהו אמר ה”ר עזרא הנביא (Gittin 88, Menachos 109, Daas Zekeinim).

Rabbeinu Tam is called a novi in Sefer Hayashar in a teshuva by R’ Eliezer ben R’ Shloma: ואחלי אליעזר לפני הנביא אשר ברמרוג רבינו יעקב אביר הרועים

The Rambam writes in Iggeres Teiman that nevuah will return as a preparation for Moshiach.

Obviously, there are many levels in nevua. The nevua nowadays is not on the level of the nevi’im before the time of חגי זכרי’ מלאכי.
So what did the the Rebbe mean when he said that nevua exists nowadays? What level did he mean? How does it fit with the Gemara? Check what he actually said, and you’ll know what he meant!

Some questions for those who say that the Gemara must always be taken at face value and if any talmid chacham tries to prove that there is a deeper pshat it is “against chazal” and one must close their ears to any explanations:

Similar to the chazal that you keep quoting that משמתו חגי זכריה מלאכי נסתלקה רוח הקודש מישראל, the Gemara in Sotah says that since the churban בטלה זכוכית לבנה – there is no longer white glass.
What if I were to tell you that it still exists, as it says clearly in other Gemaros. Therefore, the Gemara in Sotah must be understood differently (hint: see Tosfos Shabbos 20b הכוונה שאינה מצויה כל כך).
Will you shut your ears and say that I am going against a clear Gemara!?

Or, if j say that the Baal Hatanya was a great ענו, or that the Vilna Gaon was afraid of sin, will you attack me for going against the Gemara (the same Gemara about nevua in Sotah) that says: משמת רבי בטלה עונה ויראת חטא

And if I told you that the Dubner Maggid told great meshalim, am I an apikores since משמת רבי מאיר בטלו מושלי משלים!?

Should I give you a list of rishonim and achronim (even Gemaros) that name many people after the times of Chagai Zecharia Melachi who they call neviim or say that they had ruach hakodesh, despite the Gemara that ruach hakodesh left Yisroel?

Obviously, the Gemara still has to be explained. I didn’t prove anything, except that it’s okay to delve deeper and see if the Gemara should really be taken at face value. Yet, you refuse to believe that the Rebbe could give any possible explanation. Do you expect me to write a lengthy 10 page well sourced pilpul here on the coffeeroom?

>>>in the words of the tzemach tzedek, burning nigleh with nistar. He said that hisnagdus prevented chasidishe rebbes from veering off the derech due to that chashash

I haven’t seen this before. Where can I find it?

>>>Nevuah stopped with chaggai zecharya and malachi – Sanhedrin 11a. It means it’s gone. It will return when moshiach comes.

This is a beautiful example of the ridiculous derech halimmud that people are using to attack the Rebbe.

Do you really think that the Rebbe gave a ten page pilpul on nevuah nowadays without mentioning this Gemara? Of course not! The entire sicha surrounds diyukim on this gemara and the Rambam etc.

You have no time to learn the Torah of those who you “don’t hold of”, but you have plenty of time to bash random lines from their pilpulim without looking into their basis and proofs.
This is even worse than learning lekanter, because then at least you’re learning what he has to say in order to shlog it up. Over here however, you completely ignore his entire shakla v’tarya!

Imagine opening a Reb Chaim, taking out a line from his chiddush, and claiming that it “goes against a b’feirusheh Gemara”, when that very gemara is the subject of his entire pilpul!

As I wrote earlier, there is no point of answering every single “taana” on the Rebbe’s sichos, because that would be like answering every question on Reb Chaim to someone who never opened a Reb Chaim.

Regarding nevua, see what the Rebbe explains AT LENGTH in Likkutei Sichos vol. 14 pg. 72 and on. Sefer Hasichos 5751 vol. 2 pg. 787 and on.

P.S. In addition to misunderstanding the Rebbe, you misquoted the Rambam as well (if that’s who you were quoting when writing “It will return when Moshiach comes.”)
The Rambam writes in Iggeres Teiman: ואין ספק שחזרת הנבואה היא הקדמת משיח – the return of nevuah is a PREPARATION for Moshiach.

ARSo,

Your derech halimmud of taking a list of slogans out of context from a mechaber of 250 seforim can be used the same way against any rishonim and achronim.

Give me any sefer and I can find you a statement from smack in middle of a lengthy pilpul and demand “prove this statement!”

Of course, it will not be easy to answer in an online forum post.

Unfortunately, just as you use this crooked derech halimmud to attack the Lubavitcher Rebbe, there are many who do this ר”ל against any rishonim and achronim who they don’t like, such as the Rambam extremists (אור הרמב”ם) who r”l attack Rashi and Tosfos in the same style that you attack the Rebbe.

I would dare someone to actually sit down and learn through some of the Rebbe’s seforim in their original (not from the על התורה forgery) without coming to a full recognition and appreciation for the Rebbe’s lomdus and dedication to the truth of Torah.

qwerty,

“The Rebbe said that when Moshiach comes pork will be kosher. I saw that statement in a Geulah pamphlet and then I spoke to a Chabad Rabbi who confirmed it. No human being can change any law of the Torah.”

In general, I’m trying to refrain from responding to qwerty’s posts, since his unique style breaks my head a shtikel (as I’ve mentioned before, you have the full right to put me on the list of Lubavitchers whom you “checkmated”. Scroll of honor)

However, I couldn’t help responding to this post:

LOL!!!

I advise you to get off the internet and open some Jewish books. Start learning from the basics before accusing others.

P.S. To the other posters: Obviously, I will not generalize and say that all litvishers are like this, since I know from the coffeeroom that most of you are very knowledgeable in many areas of Torah despite our various disagreements.

Every time I read a post by qwerty, I do this: 🤦‍♂️

You know what? I’ll let you proudly brag to all your friends that you “checkmated” another Lubavitcher, because my head breaks when I try to contemplate your profound diyukim.

n0mesora,
>>>Just because I don’t question the tzaddik, it doesn’t make the tzaddik’s actions into proof for anything. Anything at all. Because who am I to know what is really going on.

This is true.

My point about not questioning was to answer this statement that someone made:
“Perfect means that whatever the Rebbe said cannot be wrong or questioned.”

I don’t know what this means. If he’s not perfect, then he could be wrong about what?
Does that mean that if my Rebbe instructs me to do something, I shouldn’t be sure that it’s correct, because he’s not perfect, and he could be wrong?

If Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t perfect (as many have written), does that mean that we should be wary of keeping Torah and mitzvos chas v’shalom, because he could be wrong (ח”ו)?

That’s why I wrote that perfection has no relevance to questioning the tzaddik. We accept what the tzaddik says, and we question respectfully because תורה היא וללמוד אני צריך.
This is true no matter how we define “perfect”.

>>>ended up with some Satmar chassidim pinning down a Chabad Rabbi and cutting off his beard. Why? Because he’d been hired to tutor a Satmar kid, and instead of teaching him the subjects he was being paid to, he started teaching him about Chabad, and why Chabad was preferable to Satmar.

If you want to argue with Chabad ideology, fine. But how dare you fabricate the details of a story to blame the victim!?

I will clarify the story(s) for the sake of the readers. I would like to preface that I’m not chas v’Shalom trying to besmirch Satmar, especially since much has changed since then, rather I’m just setting historical facts straight.

It is accepted in Chabad (since the times of the Alter Rebbe) to give shiurim in chassidus (especially Tanya) to non Lubavitchers (similar to how Breslovers spread the Torah of Rabbi Nachman).

Several esteemed mashpiim were especially know for busying themselves with this, including Reb Yoel Kahn and Reb Pinye Korf. They would often go to Williamsburg and Borough Park where there were arranged shiurim of people who were interested in learning chassidus (the whole idea of being hired to be a tutor is completely fabricated!).
Since Satmar had already started to have tensions with Lubavitch since the Entebbe story in the 70s (they falsely accused Chabad of being Zionist because the Rebbe praised Hashem for the miracle), these shiurim often had to happen in secret.

In Sivan 5743, Reb Pinye Korf a”h (an incredible talmid chacham and oved Hashem) was asked to give a shiur chassidus in Williamsburg.

In middle of the shiur, some satmar chassidim burst in on him and beat him. When they reached for his beard, he begged them to kill him instead, as long as they wouldn’t touch his beard. They cut his beard off.
—
Reb Mendel Vechter was a satmar talmid chacham who had questions in chassidus. He became acquainted with Reb Yoel Kahn, and they started in chavrusa in learning chabad chassidus.
Slowly, he became closer to Chabad, while keeping this a secret, lest he become a victim of Satmar violence.

On 9 Tammuz 5743, a few weeks after the incident with Reb Pinye, Reb Mendel Vechter was on his way to Shachris, and several Satmar chassidim pulled him into a car and broke his bones with clubs, stabbed him, cut off his beard and payos, and cut his throat.
They threw him from the car, and left him bloody and naked to die on the street.
B”H, he was saved by an African American who found him.

This is the true story.

Again, I am not accusing Satmar as a whole for these atrocities, but please don’t trivialize the attack and blame Chabad for this. Unbelievable chutzpa.

>>>please clarify what you meant when you said that Israeli Lubavichers, as compared to their American counterparts, are extremists.

I think I was clear enough in my previous posts.

Ehrlich,

I think you summed up the view of those who say yechi quite accurately.

All of the “alive physically” Lubavitchers that I know (which are many) go to the ohel quite often, and don’t believe in all the current dollars nonsense etc.

I’ve personally never had an honest discussion with the more extreme Lubavitchers, since they are all Israeli, and also many don’t have much of a head on their shoulders for intellectual discussion.

>>>We do not want him to start believing that Lubavitch is the best way to serve Hashem, and that any other group, especially Litivish, missing out.

I would think the opposite. He should only join Chabad if he feels that it is the best way of serving Hashem. If he lacks nothing in his avoda now, why should he change?
The moment I find a derech that I feel serves Hashem better than Chabad, I will join.

A good sign to see if he’s moving in the right direction is to monitor the outcome of his joining chabad. If he adds more in his learning, keeping halacha, middos, and serving Hashem – that means he’s in a good place.
If chas v’shalom he decreases in the above, you have a problem.

The main thing is: For more advice, talk to a real life Lubavitchers who you know and trust. And for the Litvisher perspective, talk to a real life Litvisher rov who knows your family personally.

(Asking about Chabad on a Jewish forum is equivalent to asking about Jews on a public forum (l’havdil). If you try you’ll see what I mean. For all those who may attack this statement, I’m obviously not comparing practically, just an example to bring out a point)

>>>He [seemingly] defended those who believe the Rebbe is alive at the front of 770

I said that I can’t deny that there are people who believe so, and “So what?”

Because this question had nothing to do with the discussion.

Allow me to summarize the discussion one more time:

Yserbius asked a question: Chabad tends to deny many accusations against them, claiming that virtually no Lubavitchers hold of these beliefs.
Yet, we find many Lubavitchers who say the Rebbe is Moshiach, alive, etc.

I responded that no one denies that there are many Lubavitchers with these beliefs that you mentioned.
What they DO deny is the horrific accusation (by the likes of David Berger) that there is some grand avoda zorah worship going on in Chabad, with people davening to the Rebbe and saying “yechi boreinu” and other nonsense, ch”v.

Then Yserbius claimed that there are literally Chabad houses and shuls in high positions that have huge pictures of the Rebbe in front of shul – impliying that there is some sort of grand worship going on in Chabad shuls during davening (ch”v).

However, Yserbius couldn’t name a single one, just remembering that somewhere in Tzvas there was a shul like this.

Yserbius then asked me: “Can you state with absolute honesty that no one davening in 770 believes him to still be sitting in his chair up front? Or that there’s no significant amount of Chabadskers that have their Rebbe in mind when davening Shmoneh Esrei?”

My answer to the first question was “No. So what?” because it had nothing to do with my point.
My answer to the second question was yes, I can definitely deny this accusation.
This was the point I was making all along.

I don’t mind ideological debates, but don’t make false accusations and exaggerate matters from something you (or even I) disagree with (and even consider tipshus) to literal avoda zorah.

Neville,

I’m referring specifically to the actual shul. It is not appropriate to place a picture of a man on the wall that everyone faces for shmone esrei, and I’ve never seen this done.

Yserbius is claiming that Chabad houses place a picture of the Rebbe up front so that everyone can focus on him during davening. I’ve heard this “fact” from many non-Lubavitchers, but never seen it in Lubavitch.

Yserbius,

>>>I’ve been to maybe seven in my life. I know of one that has a picture of their Rebbe front and center. By simple logic it’s highly unlikely that this is the only one and I happen to have stumbled on to it.

I’ve been to hundreds of Chabad shuls and NEVER seen such a thing.
Either one of us is lying, or you saw the yotzei min haklal.
This is מילתא דעבידא לגלויי – walk around, I’m sure you can find dozens of Chabad shuls near you. Check them out. I challenge you to find one.

>>>There are people in authority in Chabad (you know their names) who have gone on record saying things like…

See, this was my point. People like you and David Breger love to claim that all Chabad shuls practice outright AZ and the children our taught to daven to a picture of the Rebbe ch”v.
As soon as its shown that this is nonsense, they revert to endless arguments about ambiguous statements that they decided to twist as sounding avoda zoradik.
These arguments will never end, because they are nuanced arguments on interpreting deep philosophical ideas.

For example, you bring “telling people to ask bakoshois of a dead man at his kever” as some sort of terrible sin of avoda zorah, while this is a widely accepted minhag yisroel with many great poskim to rely on.

All I ask is that you continue attacking chabad for the nuanced philosophical problems you have with them, and stop falsely accusing them behavior that every Yid agrees is sinful.

As a matter of fact, this was exactly my point in the original post, and I post it again for emphasis.

You asked that on one hand Lubavitchers claim that there aren’t really any Elokistim, at the same time, we find many Lubavitchers making these extreme statements.

This was my response:

Lots of terms can be understood differently by different people, and that’s where most arguments happen (i.e. both sides usually agree, but don’t understand each other).
The idea of “עצמות ומהות ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף” – whatever it means – is a direct quote from the Rebbe, so I don’t think any Lubavitcher would deny this. The idea of asking brochos from the Rebbe is also accepted in all circles of Chabad.
What these ideas mean is up for lots of discussion and have indeed been topics of endless debate in the CR.

What I think a Lubavitcher means when he denies that there is such a thing as Elokist is, in simple, unambiguous words:
I have never met a Lubavitcher who has the Rebbe in mind when davening shmoneh esrei, or says “Yechi Boreinu” (I’ve met plenty who say Yechi adoneinu moreinu v’rabeinu melech hamoshiach leolam vaed, but I’ve never ever heard or seen “boreinu” ch”v).
I mentioned once in the CR that I’ve only heard of one yungerman (baal teshuva) who espouses these views, and he’s shunned by all (including by extreme, flag waving, yechi yarmulka wearing bochurim).

Yserbius,

>>>At least one in Tzfat. Can’t say the specifics, because I don’t recall.

You wrote that there are “literally” chabad houses and shuls like this, and quite a few of the people are in “massive positions of authority.”

Then, you send me to some unnamed location somewhere in Tzvas – home of the crazies (of Chabad and non-Chabad).
Honestly, I must agree. It is quite possible that somewhere in Tzvas this exists. Still waiting for an official Chabad House that I can contact, let alone one that is in massive positions of authority.

>>>Can you state with absolute honesty that no one davening in 770 believes him to still be sitting in his chair up front?

No. So what?

>>>Or that there’s no significant amount of Chabadskers that have their Rebbe in mind when davening Shmoneh Esrei?

Yes. I can state this with absolute honesty.