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DY,
Whatever you call yourself- if any girl gets dates without offering a picture, whats the problem?
If any girl doesnt get dates, its a problem.
Outside of real Yeshivish circles, in the last few years, I havent seen a girl get a date, unless shes willing to give a picture, if asked. If the girl doesnt give a picture, they’ll find many other pretty great quality girls who will.
Is it right? Maybe not. Lots of things in the world are wrong.
If you feel so strongly about it, tell a well known R”Y to make a new Psak, and say its assur to ask for pictures.
You only hurt yourself if you dont give a picture when asked. Unless you want to wait and wait and wait… which is not good.
Patur Aval Assur, would you please at least loosely translate to English, what you posted above in Hebrew? Thanks.
Another piece of advice. Look as good as you can, in general, and make sure you have a really good and recent picture both on your Shidduch resume and dating website, if youre on. I hate to tell it like it is, but girls’ looks/picture is more important than everything else combined. It is what it is.
This advice doesnt hurt boys either.
OOT girls have 3 options when theyre 23:
1. Move to a big city.
2. Be flexible about traveling for dating. That means flexibility at work, with bosses/job that allows for flexibility.
3. Wait til the guy comes to you (not the best option).
With all the above, speak to everyone you meet and tell them what youre looking for. You never know who the Shaliach is.
WolfishMusings,
What we are making fun of is your inability to see this.
The Wolf
I dont buy that this was written by a girl! I bet you this is a very bored old guy, not gal. Girls are too busy crying about Shidduchim to put any effort into jokes concerning Shidduchim.
justwantagoodoy, how foolish and immature of you! The color of his socks matters way less than the color of the stripe on his nose protectors on his glasses. Any decent boy these days wears nose protectors with a brown stripe, with a hechsher, because any other material or metal might have come in contact with treif metal at one time. If the nose protectors’ metal doesnt have a P R O P E R hechsher, what is all his learning worth?
Havent you heard this?
To make such a fuss about the color of his socks and not the thin stripe on the nose protectors of his eyeglasses? My gosh, what is the world coming to? That brown stripe is the sign of a true Yarei Shomayim!
Btw, do you wear pierced earrings with green on them?
I just cant believe it!
Id love to hear what they write would improve the Shidduch situation. Please share.
If theyre looking to continue in the direction they seem to be going, and negatively exciting people, they can suggest that NASI double the amount that must be put into escrow by parents of older girls, and blame and put guilt trips on those parents and girls who refuse.
shmoel, +100
(I believe in response to:
….but in the average case can we expect that “all of a sudden” these children will be grown adults??)
Chasidim do it very well.
So can you.
WIY,
The real crisis is a lack of enough quality shadchanim who are looking to get people married as opposed to just making rich flashy shidduchim.
Not at all!
Maybe there are a couple of well known Shadchanim, who are well known for only tending to high society, money, or Yichus or both together, $hidduchim. Outside of those, I think most Shadchanim are looking to make any Shidduch for the high they get when making any Shidduch, and get in the area of $1,000 or somewhat higher per side for the countless hours they spend on Shidduchim, the bulk of which go nowhere.
In general though, Shadchanim find it easier to work with, and have a higher success rate with low lying fruit- young, still flexible and not yet set in their ways and stubborn, relatively desirable singles, who the Shadchanim see as those (both parent and child) really wanting to get married, based on how many the singles decline and accept and how long the list of specs they require is.
torah613613torah,
Please, fellow single girls, stop worrying about getting married! Once you get married, there are bills to pay, kids to raise, and their shidduchim to worry about… it’s never-ending.
OY! Most older single girls would happily trade all the above not to have to worry about their biological clocks ticking, the fear of never holding their own child, the embarassment of having to dye their hair, lest anyone see them look like an “old maid”, living a life of loneliness, and being the rachmonus case among the marrieds.
Put the both piles on a scale, and see which is the harder to bear peckel. The Tzaros you mention are normal Tzaros, not nearly as humiliating and nearly as depressing Tzaros as the Tzaros of older single girls.
Gimme a break! Thats my rant!
Something must be done!
torah613613torah,
Everything comes from Hashem…
What a horrifyingly callous attitude! Whoever can help and isnt, is guilty in being accomplices in this torture of girls!
We could have had the same attitude of “Everything comes from Hashem” when are brethren were roasting in the gas chambers.
I am NOT trying to compare the two, but girls getting older and older and older, with no hope of marrying in sight, is a very painful and sad Matzav to be in. As many older single girls as there are now, the numbers will very much increase if we dont do something dreastic now in addition to Tefilah.
We clearly need to do more than react with “Everything comes from Hashem”.
This is a test of our sensitivities to our Jewish sisters’ pain. Will we pass? Do we care enough if we pass the test?
147:
I & my spouse seem to know so many more single men than single women out there? Are we missing something? or are we out of the loop?
Very much out of the loop. How I wish I could contact you! In the same families, the sons are grabbed up and the girls sit and wait. (Yes, you can answer that the boys are obviously marrying girls, so why are there more older single girls? Somehow all girls schools have many more older singles than the guys schools do. Possibly because the girls being chosen are often way younger than the guys, leaving older girls with no one to date- I know youve heard that before. Btw, my acquaintances who have their daughters on Nasi, arent getting dates from them, so thats certainly not the solution).
I think most of the fears mentioned above are explainable.
Here are mine-
Elevators- being stuck in one
Highway Driving- accidents (anyone know what helps this fear?).
Toi and others, how do you chop your liver?
Most people dont have a Fleishig processor and Im not sure hand chopping works.
Does anyone know what the meal mart ingredients are? Is there something other than onions, fat/oil, liver, and spices that gives it a bit of a crunch?
Has anyone else heard of adding a cooked sweet potato to the mixture?
A great cook told me they heard a caterer does that.
If anyone has a good Chopped Liver recipe, please provide.
Jennie Grossinger’s recipe is any kind of liver, onion, eggs, fat, salt and pepper (no sugar). Her instructions are to boil the liver with the onions and then add the other ingredients and grind.
shlishi,
There are MANY Chareidi organizations doing all of that. Right off the top of my head, without even thinking into how many I can come up with, there is.
Project YES: Very hard to get through to. Certainly not for those who dont want to bang on their doors for months.
Oorah: I know lots of Oorah employees well, and they are one of the most amazing organizations, but their goal is Kiruv R’CHOKIM, NOT Kiruv OTD!!! They work with public school kids and the like. Please get your facts straight.
Chabad: They are NOT doing Kiruv OTD, you have to approach them, which OTD chevra will never do.
Priority-1: I think theyre meant for very serious problems like anti-social issues, suicide risk, etc.
Additionally, there are so many Yeshivas just in the Metro area alone that specialize in helping at-risk children. Most of the above mentioned organizations are for kids in elementary or high school. Im not addressing the problem with kids younger than 18, Im talking young adults who go off on their own and leave Frumkeit, usually when theyre no longer under their parents’ roofs.
Perhaps the Chassidic communities would rather turn a blind eye and give up shaichus to these individuals who dont want to live exactly like them, and do nothing while they stray from Kashrus and Shabbos, for example, rather than help these young adults somewhat modify their lives and have them stay Frum but perhaps less Chassidish or not Chassidish. Its puzzling.
Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, lectures, warmth, counseling and extra-curricular activities, with religious influence, to keep these kids happy, interested and busy.
Time to realize such an organization is sorely needed.
shlishi,
1) Extremely few Chareidim know of that apikorus/rasha organization that tries to convert Jews away from Judaism. (The one that is being discussed here unnamed.)
This organization has hundreds of members, 95% of them are ex-Hasids (extremely few?) who are hateful and angry, many of which feeling they are being denied the help they need to achieve careerwise, because of ideological differences. (If you seek a career, you are a GOY in those communities). So they leave their communities and toss all Frumkeit.
2) Chareidim not only admit there is a problem, but have many many extensive organizations to combat OTD. What are the MO doing about their much larger problem with it and what MO organizations combat OTD and and try to bring their brethren back into the fold?
The need for a Mod Orth organization doesnt negate the need for a Chareidi organization to interest these ex-Chareidi kids who are going to that despicable organization and leaving all Frumkeit behind.
Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, in addition to extra-curricular activities to keep these kids happy, interested and busy with religious influence.
HaKatan, “I do agree with you, however, that these threads don’t replace a Rav. Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”, not Asei Licha Coffee Room”
True, but Im sure great ideas for great organizations have come about when Askanim read something inspiring and then took the ideas up with a Rov and other Askanim.
We can say what we want about the CR, but all kinds of people worldwide drop in and who knows what can come about as a result of suggestions made here.
PuhLease:
If the slightest kernel of a seed has been planted in someone’s mind to start an organization serving the needs of the people we speak about and giving them an opportunity to live in the outside world while not abandoning pride of their heritage and observance, there will be almost nothing more beautiful than that.
As right or as wrong as your opinions are…. the above holds true.
Wolf, “Chassidic people, on the other hand, are given the message that if they don’t follow in chassidus, then it’s little or no different than going OTD”.
True in the majority of cases, but why lose these members to observant Judaism, just because the parents are fixed in their ways and theres only one organization known to help them? At the end of the day, in their heart of hearts, parents still prefer Modern Orthodox over non-practicing, intermarrying Jews.
The sentiment you speak of, doesnt negate the need for an organization that welcomes these ex-Chasids, that isnt antagonistic towards religious observance.
Why not an organization that offers help and information on career and educational opportunities, lectures and social services from all branches of Orthodoxy, perhaps even Shadchanim, 😉 and not espousing any one specific Derech?
Anything would be an improvement over the organization available now for the OTD population, which serves to bang the coffin nails of OTD leanings, permanently, by creating antagonism towards traditional observance.
crisis:
“widen the derech a little bit so not everyone who doesnt fit in the box seeks the need for approval elsewhere”.
Brilliantly said! But an organization without hostility towards religious observance cant hurt!
zahavasdad,
“There needs to be a way for those who cannot live the Chassidic lifestyle to somewhat stay in the fold without them leaving 100%”
Agreed! I am very well aware of the author you speak of, and the many like her who all/most met/meet at “F” and get encouragement there to leave any form of observance of Judaism, financed by the UJA, financed by Modern Orthodox synagogues.
Which is why I wrote:
Perhaps an organization could be formed that provides an alternative to the OTD population by offering educational and employment programs within a context of pride and preservation of Jewish heritage.
MDG, “If the MO are going OTD then charaidi are also to blame…”
My observation has been that there are way more Chassidim going OTD than Mod Orth.
Once the Chassidim start going in that direction, and get involved in the organization with the name beginning with “F”, which is happily financed by UJA, and supported by Modern Orthodox synagogues, the Chassidic individuals leave Orthodoxy, and often Judaism of any kind, period.
IMHO the Modern Orthodox themselves have less congregants going OTD than the Chassidim, but they support the organizations that help Chassidim move away from any form of Judaism.
This is my biggest gripe with the Modern Orthodox movement. They financially support UJA, who fnancially support “F”.
I wonder if Rabbi Pruzansky, who is rightly bothered by the high OTD rate, collects funds for the UJA, the organization that encourages, and lessens the religiosity of those looking to go OTD, by its giving financial support to the organization with name starting with an “F”.
I hope not!
I have a dream!
Wouldnt it be great if Modern Orthodox congregations would stop supporting the UJA, as long as the UJA encourages and motivates the OTD population in the abandonment of religious observance. Perhaps an organization could be formed that provides an alternative to the OTD population by offering educational and employment programs within a context of pride and preservation of Jewish heritage.
zahavasdad, “The director of the Anti-Kiruv organization has said most of the people that go there are Chassidic…..”.
If youre referring to the organization whose name starts with an “F”, they openly say on their website that they get their funding from organizations like UJA (shocking) to help those from Chassidic communities get education, but everyone knows, at the same time, they offer parties and trips on Shabbos and Yom Tov to secularize them. This has been going on for years. When asked about this publicly, they innocently answer that they offer Kosher food. Anyone going on their website, sees speakers and authors featured at lectures, who equate ultra religious people with cult members.
shlishi, preposterous???? You dont even attempt to back up your opinion.
Never mind your observations, Id like to hear what Kiruv professionals who speacialize in OTDers, have to say about what background/upbringing they deal with and hear of most.
shlishi, “I believe the Yeshivish OTD rate is slightly higher than the Chasidish rate…”.
Something tells me that its the reverse! IMHO, I think youre way off.
If you ever chance upon any of the many OTD websites:
1- The English and grammar of most of the posts is horrendous.
2- Yiddish terms that are used in Chassidishe homes are used. Litvish kids know how to spell and are much better at grammar. Litvish/Yeshivish kids are really not well versed in these Yiddish phrases.
3- Many of theses websites have people posting, speaking of their upbringing in Williamsburg and Monroe, etc and other extremely Chassidic areas. Many of the OTDers offer interviews and speak of their Chassidic upbringing.
What is the percentage of kids and young adults going OTD in Williamsburg and Monroe?
The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite, I agree!
Clowns?
If Rabbi Pruzansky hasnt turned a blind eye to molesters abusers and criminals, like some do, hes already a Tzadik in my eyes!
Who are the real clowns? Is he judging by the kind of hat they wear?
Im still basking in the warmth of the hundreds of inspirational profiles I read daily of Modern Orthodox singles, very much turning to the right religiously, and wondering if they were hand-delivered to me alone.
Am I on my own planet?
Borough Park Mensch,
“Oh, and my personal favorite, if we aren’t good enough Jews for you, then don’t drop in to hear our chazan and choir! I am offended by the idea my contributions are paying for a service you might enjoy. Then again, why should you? Our shul clearly doesn’t measure up to your standards of sinas chinam!”
Absolutely right! Love it!
IMHO if R Aron a”h would be alive today, I think hed be very comfortable in the YU Bais Medrash with the independent Mistapek b’Muat learners there. Possibly more comfortable than with some (the materialistic, demanding percentile) of the Lakewood Kollel. Please refer to my opinion stated in an earlier post, for clarification.
re: “It’s a little skewed because a lot of the people in these high schools aren’t Shomer Shabbos and Kashrus to begin with. My experience is that not so many have gone off. Unfortunately, I know that my experience has been very lucky and that most of the people I knew from these types of schools were raised properly and very Frum starting out. It is a problem in a lot of places. (I wonder what the rate is for graduates of “Yeshivish” Yeshivos?)”
Sam2, I agree! But I think its more than a little skewed.
A college grad can choose one of three levels of religious practice- the same level of religiosity that they were brought up in, less religious than they were brought up in, and more religious than they were brought up in.
Due to my connection to singles of Modern Orthodox background, I see so many YU/Sterns grads going to the right of their parents, just the opposite, that this all just doesnt ring true!
I read profiles daily of girls whose mothers dont cover their hair and had TV’s and went to movies, and these girls want to cover their hair and not have a TV or go to movies, and guys wanting the same, to move to the right religiously of their parents in their married lives.
Whether they are pursuing advanced secular degrees or are living the Kollel life, they are so genuine. I dont get the feeling the people I deal with are the exception to the rule. They have totally different mindsets and goals. I read inspirational profiles every single day.
Not only that, just for an example, by and large, when a YU/Sterns couple decide to live the Kollel life, no one stipulates that they need parental help. They do it on their own, whether either or both husband and wife already have high paying jobs, or are just en route to the high paying jobs, after the Kollel period. They are truly Mistapek b’Muat. No need for fancy furniture, cars, sheitels, clothing, etc. By and large, materialism is looked down at rather than looked up to! I find the YU Sterns crowd more genuine Ovdai Hashem than those from Yeshivish communities. I know lots of people of all ages from all frumkeit levels and this is what I feel. Modern Orthodox definitions of true frumkeit are remarkably genuine and probably closer to the original Talmidim of R’ Aron Kotler’s era. Im very very impressed.
The OTD type profiles I read, where you see the religious observance lessening after high school and college, are not the Modern Orthodox crowd at all. Use your imaginations.
AZ:
“If the opportunities via SYAS are no more likely to result in a shidduch then the many other opportunites they have then it’s not really helpfull in the big picture”.
Pictures? You like pictures?
Please forward your email address, so I can happily send you lots of pictures of the L’Chayims from Shidduchim Ive made on SYAS (having never had a discussion about dowry btw!). They might not all admit to friends and relatives that thats how the Shidduch happened though.
Pictures you want? Not a problem.
Hee hee. Oy, Im laughing like a hyena again.
147:
“I was a member on SYAS for while, but they had weird rules”.
Please offer details on the “weird” rules. These “weird” rules led to multiple hundreds of Shidduchim.
YW Moderator-42:
“(We’ll leave it to AZ to tell us at what age each gender should join)”.
Im giggling like a hyena. Thanks mod!
OOOOOOH! Thanks for this thread! An opportunity to sing the praises of SYAS! 🙂 One of the blessings that the internet brought about, B”H, when used properly, together with other sites like Torahanytime.
I will preface this by saying that I made a number of Shidduchim on SYAS, with my Shadchanus fees ranging from a Silverplate gift that costed about $100, that I got from a BT couple, to $2,000 total, from Heimish people. I was equally thrilled with all the Shidduchim I’ve made, whether I got Silverplate or Dollar$. I would imagine that my reward from upstairs was the same.
Non paying members get matched once a week, at most, and, true, they dont have the option of choosing a Matchmaker. Singles must become members if they want to accept a match.
The cost of membership is so ridiculously low, that its a non-issue.
I dont know what AZ was trying to say with his nonsense about BY girls and Kollel guys, but SYAS has a very wide range of members of varying frumkeit levels, as is the case with Shadchanim in general, throughout the world.
shmoel, ” It is against our Torah to “stipulate” a limitation upon the number of children”
Right you are!
Halevei that Shmiras Hamitzvos k’Hilchasam would be the case with everything all across the board, involving every Mitzvah, without looking for legal (mutar) loopholes when desired.
shmoel, many want the less wrinkled faces and stipulate NO MORE KIDS.
tahini, “In the cold light of day it is easier for an older man to find a spouse than an older woman and of course the basic reason is the biological clock”
Lav Dafka.
How about the many older divorced/widowed men who have zero interest in having more children, but obviously much interest in marrying a less wrinkled face?
I dont think anyone feels for older singles more than my friends and myself, because we all have very close older single male and female relatives.
BUT- theres always a but unfortunately-
1. I recently spoke to a very well known and highly regarded Rov about this topic. He said “something has to be done”. I said- short of creating new 30/40/50 year old guys, theres not much that can be done as far as a good solution. The Rov replied that girls and parents have to realize that girls have a small window of opportunity to look for a Shidduch- in their early twenties. After that it becomes much more difficult. They have to realize this when they become that age. It only gets harder for most girls after that.
Unfortunately I cant disagree.
Comfort often sets in and some singles refuse to date. Without dating, the potential for getting married very much decreases.
Parents have to realize this when their single is younger and they have more input.
2. Someone told me that recently an older single girl wrote to the Mishpacha (I think) about how she was a guest at a Rov’s house. The Rov said he has the solution for older singles if the older singles would only want to hear it.
He said it would be very nice if everyone was able to live their dreams, and marry the type of person they always envisioned, but thats impossible.
The girl understood the Mashal and married a boy she would have never married years before. She had children and was writing to say how happy she was.
Consult your Rov. He can guide you.
And yes, while singles search, they should be treated as adults and with respect. They should never be abandoned by their friends, as is often the case with hundreds of reasons, none of them valid.
Gmar Tov.