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“Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty good example how we dont take these things literally. “
newbee,
Perhaps one could say there are different levels of ideal.
…and maybe because he’s not interested.
Did he ever ask you out? Or at least say that he wanted to date you?
“why would he get turned off even more because his dating a girl who wants him to become religious?”
First of all, he’s not dating such a girl, nor do I think he wants one.
At present, he made a decision to go OTD. He’s not interested in religiousness. He probably does not want such a girl for an LTR.
“if he likes her enough why would he feel such a way?”
As I touched on above, most men don’t want to be changed. It turns them off. Simply put, that’s not accepting the man for who he is. Many women try to “improve” their men. Men hate it, as it’s demeaning.
“he should want to do anything for the girl he likes enough. “
Probably not (see what I just wrote). Maybe in very rare circumstances, but that’s not happening here. He’s not even dating you. In fact, you have not even mentioned that he shows any desire to date you. To me that’s enough to say that you are (pardon any negative connotations) barking up the wrong tree.
MsPrincess,
You wrote:
” im not asking for dating advice im asking how to do kiruv.”
” his the right one for me because….”
You contradict yourself. Are you looking to do kiruv or are you trying to date? Trying both at once won’t work. You can’t say I’m doing this for Hashem while feeling I’m doing this for me. He’ll see right through that and get turned off more. He’ll call that hypocrisy.
There are many who date (more often women) who think that they found the right person except for one thing or two. And they think they will change that person. The truth is what you see is what you get (WYSIWYG).
“I dont think he went off because of girls….”
Maybe not (we don’t know), but you can’t deny an ever-present force of nature.
“…because his [sic] more into studying than being otd. “
Ok, so he does not sound bitter; he doesn’t seem to ruminate over the past. That’s why it seems to me that he was following desire(s) and left rather than feeling “pushed” out.
“So i should just stand by as i see a boy who comes from a very religious good family get into a car with a bunch of not jewish girls from my class? “
Yes. From what I understand, I don’t think this guy is angry or hurt. He has male taavot. That’s why he’s hanging out with all those girls.
Ms Princess,
There is nothing you can do that will help him. In fact the more you talk to him, the worse things become, as you are drawing him closer to his taavot. If you need to speak about school subjects, then keep it to a bare minimum and stay business-like. You don’t understand a man’s desires. You are playing with fire. If you want to mekarev him, find a guy to speak with him.
Here’s a mashal: you go trying to save a drowning person when you can’t swim. Go find a life guard and you stay out of the water.
BTW, you mention that he is really intelligent. That means nothing in regards to taava. There have been many very intelligent men that were very immoral, from Aristotle to Bill Clinton.
“Don’t be silly. You face as much social pressure to fit in, the style just doesn’t change as often. “
I have gotten used to being an outcast. I don’t mind it, as I’m comfortable in my skin. It comes with age and messing up enough that you don’t care anymore. Right now, I am at work with jeans, sneakers, and dress socks. Not so stylish…whatever. The only concern I have is that I don’t look so out-of-it that I make a chillul Hashem.
Joseph,
I agree with you 100%. If you clothes were nice last year, then they should be good this year. I have a few dark suits and davening jackets which last me years. I replace one every year or two as they wear out.
But I think that a woman’s mind is wired differently, however. Most women seem to have a strong need for social acceptance and even adulation. That is their main Yetzer Hara.
In all fairness I believe that they are striving to do the best. For example, they probably ask the restaurant to use prewashed kale. From what I’ve seen, the majority of prewashed vegetables are clean. However for most of us that is not enough.
Concerning kale, i have only checked and washed fresh kale.
“. You are concerned with the kale, ask them how they check it for bugs. Ask them how they enforce their standards.”
From the Web site -on the costs page, it seems that they do Yotze Venichnas. That doesn’t work for bugs. Yes you call them, but I wouldn’t bother.
The website leaves me a little deflated. It looks like the main message is to advertise to potential businesses, and it’s not geared towards the kosher consumer.
Another issue that I have is that hechsher certifies a pizza place in Philadelphia which serves kale salad. I do a lot of vegetable washing, and I can tell you that kale can be one of the worst things as far as bugs.
Kosherquest. Com does not list the ikc as recommended.
” I’ve seen surveys indicating parents with more children were generally happier than parents with less children.”
What does more and less mean numerically? 1 vs. 2, 2 vs. 4, 5 vs. 10 ?
Also, we may have correlation, but what is causation? In other words, do more children bring happiness or do happier people have more children?
I tend to believe both sides are true and they help each other.
There were a couple guys that went into the J legend. One was the student of Yehushua ben parachia (Sotah 47). He lived about 150-200 years before the Churban. The other IIRC was someone named ben stadia, whom Rabbi Eliezer (who lived through the churban) references around Chagiga 5.
I believe that all the spiritual reasons given for Nittel are just to keep people indoors, so that they won’t get harmed by raving bands of intoxicated Cossacks. Once you attach a spiritual reason, it’s much harder for a layman to think he can decide for himself. Furthermore, the practical reason seems likely because not all Ashkenazim follow it, nor do any Sephardim.
“clergyofberlin: The massive Russian influx …”
Joseph, please don’t name call. You made a valid point, and name calling is not necessary nor productive.
“Charedi birthrate is probably higher than either DL or MO (though some MO and DL certainly have a lot of children), but this isn’t a mark of legitimacy. “
No, but the ‘winner’ can rewrite history.
(sarcasm on) Besides, having more children can prove more righteousness, at least that’s what Hagar understood when was more fertile than Sarah Imainu. (sarcasm off)
We encounter many people and things. We need to have a way to analyze what we encounter. Therefore our minds like to categorize to make it easier. Sometimes the labels are good and sometimes not.
I heard one proof, FWIW, is to see the gravestones of ancestors. Does it say cohain in Hebrew? There still could some Yichus problems, like gerusha or chalutza, but at least there is something to start with.
DY,
After looking at the Shach and the Taz that you cited (thank you for the links), I now see how they pasken and learn the Rama. I still think that my read (and what I think is PBA’s read) of the Rama could make sense, but no Acharonim see it that way.
To recap the way the Shach, Taz, and Gra learn the Rama: There is only room for heter to recoup a loss by selling the (collateralized) wine that was taken. There is also room for heter if the Jew bought the yayin nesech b’issur and now wants to avoid a loss. But in the above cases it’s better to be strict.
BTW, the Mechaber’s view includes no heterim. I saw Rabbi Mansour’s “daily halacha” which says that one can’t do anything with it, not even gifting it. He says to spill it down the drain. I presume not the kitchen sink.
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“2) Tovas hana’ah, such as giving away to a different business associate, would be assur, and that’s not tangible.”
I think that re-gifting the bottle is in place of spending you own money for a gift. That is a tangable benefit.
In any event, do you have a source?
Joseph,
I think I understand you better now. I don’t directly see a difference, but I would like to say the following diyuk: the Gemara mentions problems with a husband (poor, puny, etc) that a wife would tolerate, but it specifically leaves out abuse.
I misquoted what Reiss Lakish said, but I got the idea right. The following is from the Soncino translation, kitubot 75 A. Artscroll has a better translation and commentary.
[of the size of an] ant her
seat is placed among the great.22 R. Papa said: Though her husband be a carder23 she calls him to the
threshold and sits down [at his side].24 R. Ashi said: Even if her husband is only a cabbage-head25
she requires no lentils26 for her pot.27
A Tanna taught: But all such women28 play the harlot and attribute the consequences29 to their
husbands
I see it like this:
The Rama says that it’s lichatchilah mutar to collect on a debt with wine. Dealing in Stam Yayin is assur lichatchilah.
IMO, the Rabbinic issur was only for dealing because dealing leads to all the problems. A one time sale, re-gifting, or collection of a loan is OK because those infrequent activities don’t lead to all the problems.
It seems to me that you are saying that for a real hefsed it’s lichatchila assur, then for a little hefsed all the more so.
If my above assertions are correct, I’m looking at ‘why’ and you are looking at ‘what’.
” doesn’t the Gemora say that a woman would rather be married to a bad husband than to not be married? “
Bad yes, like poor in money or poor in physicality, but NOT abusive.
Besides which, at the end of that sugya, Reish Lakish says that she tolerates a bad husband so that if she is mezana, she can claim it’s her husband’s child.
DY,
From what I understand from the Rama, there is a Machloket on doing business with stam yayin Lichatchila. PBA’s situation is a bedeiavad to begin with – some one gave it to him.
Besides which, my understanding of doing business (“assur liknoto uliMacharato kidai lehistaccer” in the Rama) means as an ongoing inventory item (not a one time deal), and that includes monetary gain (hence the lashon of sachar – not including good will). Neither of which are in this case.
“MDG, are you serious?!? What does that one case prove?”
Doesn’t prove anything really. Maybe just shows how some did it. I just found it interesting.
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I think that for those of us who have lived away from home for some time, like for yeshiva or lehavdil for a job, parents choosing the spouse won’t work as well as before. The parents don’t have as good of an understanding of their child’s needs and wants.
“Not much veto power there.”
Rabbi Abraham J Twerski MD mentioned (in a tape I think) that his father did not meet his mother until the Chuppah. Rabbi Twerski asked his father that doesn’t the Gemara say that a man is supposed to see his future wife before the wedding. His father said that he “saw” her at the vort. Someone brought him over to the doorway of women’s section of the vort and said, “do you see her over there?”. She was among other girls/women over there. Rabbi Twerski senior was like, “umm….yes”, not able to tell exactly. Rabbi Twerski reports that his parents had a long and successful marriage.
I though that Hanaah meant only tangible gain.
Besides which, what Hanaah is there from looking a a bottle of wine?
Continuing with the same theme I mentioned above, Yosef wanted to make the brothers feel appreciated by their father. How?
When Yosef went missing, Yaakov became inconsolable. Perhaps the brothers thought that Yaakov only felt that way when Yosef was missing, but Yaakov would not miss them. Yosef imprisoned Shimon and sent them home in order for them to see Yaakov’s reaction – that he grived for Shimon also. Remember that Shimon was rambunctious and caused trouble in Shechem. Even so, Yaakov still grieved his absence. The Shevatim now learned how much their father cared for all of them.
Yes, Joseph.
That’s my understanding based on Rabbi A.J Twerski. Although I think that it might take a trained professional to really get to the bottom of the problem.
OTOH, I have a rather affluent friend who wears expensive clothing, but I don’t think he has a problem. He doesn’t show off, not in clothing and not in attitude. You can’t even tell his clothing brands unless you look for it. And he speaks respectively to all, especially Talmidai Chachamim.
From a different angle:
Rabbi Twerski MD says that some people who have low self esteem will try to put themselves above others to try to raise their self esteem. Arrogant people really suffer from low self esteem.
The Messilat Yesharim says that clothing is a function of Gaavah, arrogance. If people are trying to dress up (fashionable, flashy, etc), it could mean that they are trying to cover up feelings of low self esteem; they make themselves feel better about their lot in life.
“Also, when you’re in your mid-20s you’re more polite and effusive. When you’re in your late 30s . . . the nonsense leash you tolerate from monkeys is a great deal shorter. Not after that much life experience. No one tells you what to do. No. “
Pretty much agree. But I still try to be polite.
I think that main reason for the change is that we 1) get more comfortable with ourselves 2) have a better sense of what we want and don’t want 3) and have a clearer understanding of our (realistic) goals in life and what it takes to achieve them.
“MDG, can you define for us what you consider to be “fancy clothing”? “
I misquoted TheGoq who said “fashionable clothing”. In any event, I meant clothing that go above what is normal for a person in his circumstances. For a Yeshiva guy, that might be $100 dress shirts. For an inner city youth, that might be a $200 pair of Nike Air Jordans.
Z-dad’s example of expensive handbags is also good (assuming that the bags are real and not counterfeit).
The idea of having shame for taking freebies is mentioned in the 2nd perek of Derech Hashem. Hashem could have put our neshamot in Olam Haba, but that would have been shameful. Therefore he put us in this world, with all its tests and travail, so that we can earn that reward w/o shame.
Joseph,
I use the Tfilon app (free for android, dunno about apple), although there are other “smart” siddurim available (also free).
Concerning the flashlights, we did not know how long there would be a blackout, so most of us were trying to conserve power. Using a flashlight for 45 minutes will eat up like half of the power, if not more.
Apparently, there is more shame in not having fancy clothing and accessories than going on food stamps.
Here’s my answer (for what little it’s worth).
Most dishes are new and unused.
Even if some were used, it’s been more than 24 hours (safeik derabanan lehakel).
It’s funny that you brought this up, as the Daf Yomi just finished Sotah, which mentions the decline on the state of the world. It seems to me that every generation pines for peace, respectfulness, and beauty of yesteryear.
“The Talmud says everyone will have to farm one day.”
Do you have a source for that?
“Don’t the phones have flashlights? “
It’s hard to daven holding a siddur in one hand and flashlight in another. Those that used flashlights had shtenders or tables.
Besides, the flashlight uses a lot of battery power, and we had no idea when power would be restored.
Back to the OP:
You need to set up some rules, like CTLAWYER did. It is not easy to speak to your parents like that. But if done respectfully and tactfully, they should understand and respect you point of view. Just don’t hold it inside too long or you might just blow up like I did above. Fortunately, I did it here and not at home.
Possibly set up times for them to come over, like a couple nights a week for various activities. That way you all can spend time together and there are no surprises.
People want to be wanted and needed. Perhaps that’s what they want. Maybe ask them for help with things or their opinion. Make them feel valued.
I sincerely apologize for my rude and unfair comments above. I had a rough week last week (mostly my doing) and it showed here. I have to say that we were inviting, helpful, and generous to my in-law this past weekend as always.
Joseph, your comment to me was a well-needed slap in the face. TY.
DY, thank you for your criticism.
He wanted to give them the opportunity to redeem themselves through teshuva. He created a similar opportunity to prove that they did a full teshuva.
These great men knew their place in history – that they were creating a great nation. Yosef wanted the patriarch of each tribe to live in dignity, which will continue to their tribes. If he merely contacted Yaacov and forgave his brothers, they brothers would have lived out the rest of their lives with shame. Yosef removed that shame. The goal of building a great and proud was worth more to Yaacov than knowing about Yosef a few (nine really) years earlier
Who needs ’em? The best shidduchim come from the non-professionals.
1. They are part of the hishtadlut that we must do.
2. If they are in business, then clearly they are making .
money. That means they are needed by some part of the market.
3. They may be helpful for those who are outside the normal. For example, living far away, special needs, etc.
I’d explain my thoughts, but I’m afraid it wouldn’t be useful.
I apologize for my insult, and I think you owe ROB and apology.
They probably have nothing doing in their life and need you to fill that void.
Don’t stop you normal household activities because of them. Learn to ignore those people. I have an in-law that likes to converse when I’m trying to eat, especially Shabbat lunch. At first I tried to be polite, but after a number of years, I feel taken for granted and disrespected. I now just ignore the person until I’ve eaten.
That same in-law does almost nothing for my kids, but thinks that coming over and providing (unsolicited and unwanted) advice is helpful.
In any event, some people are takers, and you have to put up a boundary.
“I assume your misspelling of “HaKatan” was not intentional because you are surely aware that calling someone a derogatory nickname causes one to lose their Olam Haba.”
Seriously? You name call and insult left and right (and in every other direction). I hope you like it HOT.
I apologize if I caused you any anguish. Your harsh words caused me much anguish (besides causing me bittul Torah) and I lost it.
I had a rather interesting incident. A little while ago, the power lines went down just before minyan due to a bad storm. Most of us had to use our phones to daven. There were only a few flashlights.
I agree with The Goq, assuming that is what you feel, which is what it seems.
Haketem,
You make Rabbi Akiva sound naive, and – Elef Havdalot – Yimach Sh’mo sound like a nice guy intrinsically (regardless of decades of latent antisemitism starting about 1908 – see 2nd chapter of his book). Whatever it takes to “make” your point, right?
Like I said before, for people Zionism is their A”Z, for others it’s anti-Zionism.
“Bar Kochba and his war happened hundreds of years before the mention of “shlosh shevuos” in Ketubot.”
The drasha from Shir Hashirim predated Rabbi Akiva. The Targum Yonatan ben Uziel (who lived before Rabbi Akiva) mentions the Bnai Efrayim. I don’t have sefarim with me now, but look at the passuk mentioned in the sugya in Ketubot. The Targum Yonatan is on that passuk.
“Rabbi Akiva backed Bar Koziva precisely and only because he fooled Rabbi Akiva into believing that he, BK, was Mashiach, at which point the oaths would no longer apply.”
Do you have a source for that?