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“You are assuming that Borsalinos go along with luxury apartments and leased cars. They usually don’t.”
I think the sentiment that some of us have been showing is dislike of the attitude of entitlement. “Gimme gashmius because I’m a ruchnius person.” Sounds funny to me.
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“in the vast majority of cases, the girl’s father does not undertake to fully support the young couple regardless of income or expenses. It’s usually a set amount, and far, far less than the numbers you’re using.”
Reality sets in.
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I recently became more repelled by the attitude of entitlement because of my female relative’s experience. In short, that’s my issue. Borsalino is the tip of that entitlement iceberg.
Sounds interesting. What would you fill them with?
A jew who cares said:
“I’m not sure what the rest seem to have against yeshiva bachurim??”
and said
“If $250 would keep a bachur in yeshiva for 3 extra years (that’s around how long my hats last), then yes that perhaps might be a good cause.”
If it takes only an extra $300 to incentivize 3 more years of learning, I’m for it. My issue is that it seems to me that many use learning Torah as their tool for making money and their selfishness. The Borsalino is emblematic of that. As that attitude grows, so does the appetite for support. Which leads me to my next point….
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DaasYochid asked, “$50k per year? I’ve never heard that. Ten years is high, but not unheard of.”
Let’s do some math. Rent in the NY/NJ metro can easily cost $2000 a month for a 2 bedroom –> $24,000 yearly. Utilities, phones, car payments and gas, food, car insurance, and health insurance can easily bring it up to $35,000, more likely $40,000. I’ve left out clothing, other incidentals, and “what ifs”.
In a few years, G”W, there will be kids. A bigger place might be needed with higher rent. More health insurance needed. Diapers, wipes, formula, and baby food add more costs. Childcare is expensive. Chinuch is expensive.
Eventually, the young family might want to buy a place to live. The shver is then expected to plunk down a down payment, which could be like $100,000.
Am I missing something, or does the loose math come out to about a half million (if not more) in 10 years. Even if you cut corners here and there, you still come out with a figure of hundreds of thousands. I’m sure that most young ladies will be working and contribute greatly to that in the beginning. But as kids come along, their net earnings will either diminish due to higher child care or less ability to earn.
BTW, all of that is AFTER TAXES. In other words, the shver has to make about $700,000 to pay that half million. Even if you want to tell me that it’s only half of that, it’s still a hefty sum.
“I disagree with the comparison between a Borsalino and $300 Italian shoes, and your comparison between generation.
The basic point remains valid.”
We will have to agree to disagree.
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“Not what I see in the very yeshivish crowd.”
Not sure where to draw the line of what is “very yeshivish”. Anyway, I have a young female relative in Shidduchim. She has been told that some bochurim are expecting 10 years of support. That’s like a half million dollars.
Never heard anything like that. Ask that person for the source.
“Better to work on shidduchim for girls who are looking to get married.”
That is the same problem as the Borsalino issue. Very high physical/material expectations.
“Rav Meir Shapiro zt”l built Chachmei Lublin with that premise.”
I disagree with that comparison. There is a big difference between having normal living conditions -like a dorm and food – and $300 Italian dress shoes.
DY, it’s not just the parents. A friend’s son was actually encouraged by his Rebbe to enjoy the “good life” (expensive clothes, shoes) in Yeshiva. The idea was to keep them learning.
“Human beings are born selfish. It takes time, chinich, maturity, and working on oneself to overcome this, and truthfully, very few people ever do, and much fewer to the point of not caring about gashmius at all.”
While I think no one disagrees with that, I think that many of us expect more maturity sooner from some one who has been learning full time for several years.
I did the segula yesterday without doing it. I have to the Parasha anyways, so I did Shnyim Mikra and Targum yesterday.
GAW said,
” today’s typical yeshiva bochur is decadent, materialistic, does not feel responsible for themselves or their families, and expects much from others (including their shver, which is where we had the discussion) with a Magiah Li attitude.
That being said, many do learn most of the day, and in their defense, they have been taught that what they are doing is correct. “
Do you believe that they have been taught that way from just their parents? My guess is that the yeshiva system contributes to that attitude. When one is taught that learning Torah is the best thing and one should support learners, then a bochur can easily think “I’m doing the best and people should support me. Any bracha you have is because of me, so support me well!”
… when you learn daf yomi.
My family uses Whatsapp. I never used telegram, but it looks similar.
the plumber,
Your minyan sounds like a bunch of slackers, they get to shul real late and rush through it.
” The cRc does suggest avoiding regular coffee, but they only consider it a chumra”
Is that because of kosher ingredients or Bishul Yisrael? There is a discussion about B”Y for coffee.
“my mother used to put me to sleep with his tapes.”
Chazzanim usually put me to sleep :>
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“Greatest” and “chazzan” are oxymorons. Arent they?
LOL
“Why not show a picture of a woman who is dressed according to the rules? For example, when Rebbetzin Kanievsky a”h passed away, would it have been so terrible to put a picture of her in the paper? “
You have to draw the line somewhere. The editors drew theirs on the machmir side. It’s their prerogative. This “chumra” in policy makes it easier later on. I think that a picture of Rebbetzin Kanievsky would not have been terrible, but actually good. She was tsniut tzadekket and could inspire, much like pictures of Rabbanim. But once the policy was set it should be followed, tsniut tzadekket or not.
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“Because women don’t exist to be looked at. “
No one said that they exist to be looked at. We all have pictures of ourselves, family members, friends, Rabbiim, etc. Stam Reiah is mutar, Histaklut is assur. A picture which is meant to be looked at casually may become stared at intently. I will agree that one can easily lead to the other.
“do you have any real source that it’s a copyright violation, or is that just an assumption?”
When the Hilary Photoshop incident occurred 3 years ago, it was mentioned that owner of the picture allowed it for public use as long as it was not altered. Apparently, there is such a thing as intellectual property rights with pictures.
“mdg: Strawmen questions.”
No. I was merely applying logic to prove that the sevara presented does not work.
” the answer to your 3 rhetorical questions above are not all no,”
Please Explain.
“In addition to Yiddish, Ladino also has a certain sanctity to it.”
Ladino is dead. No ome speaks it today. Actually one could argue that has more kedusha than Yiddish because Ladino Sephardim have incorporated Ladino into their davening and Selihot.
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I still maintain that Kedusha only comes from the Torah and Mitsvot and defined by Chazal, not from cultural practices. The Torah is written in Lashon haKodesh and comes from Hashem. Yiddish, lehavdil, comes from Edom (Germany comes from Edom. Megilla 6b).
My mother-in-law and uncle told me that modern gifilte fish, like loaves or jarred balls, is nothing like the real thing. The word gefilte means filled. What they used to do, according to my MIL and uncle, was clean the fish, take out the meat, mix the meat with stuff, put the mixture back into the fish skin, and cook it. It was served looking whole. One picked up the skin to get what was inside.
Pizza is one way of having warm bread after Shabbat. Pat Chamah b’motsai Shabbat melugma (Shabbat 119b).
“No Goy speaks Yiddish or Lashon Hakodesh …. This puts Yiddish on a higher level of holiness… “
That may make it special to you, but that does not make it Kodesh.
- Pagans did sacrifices and we did also. Do their practices make ours any less Kodesh because of less exclusivity?
- Only Jews eat gefilte fish. Is gefilte fish now holy?
- How about Lashon Hara and Nivul Peh in Yiddush – any kedushah there?
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Kedushah comes from Torah and Mitzvot. Cultural norms are just neutral.
BTW, the answer to my 3 rhetorical questions above are all “no”.
I don’t assume any connection between the OP maaseh in Sanhedrin and -lehavdil- the stories that were written hundreds of years later.
Why are you giving any credence to them?
Rav Moshe wrote a teshuva supposedly about Carlebach, although he does not mention his name. It’s “understood” who Rav Moshe was talking about. Teshuvot Iggerot Moshe, Even Ha-Ezer, I, no. 96
I don’t have it in front of me, nor can I find it on Hebrewbook.org.
Perhaps someone can help.
WOW,
Thank you for your detailed response.
I’m sorry if I sounded like I was accusing you.
“My son admits being angry with us, but blames it on us having moved to Israel when he was young. I know he was bullied in school here many years ago, which must have been a trauma for him…. And since we are all religious, he has concluded unfortunately that religion itself has betrayed him.”
WOW,
I am going to say some harsh words, but I feel that they may be useful.
After spending 2 hours reading through much of this thread, I felt knots in my stomach many times. Not because of your son’s OTD, but because of all the abuse he took, time and time again.
It seems to me that your son views many so-called religious people as a bunch of hypocrites. Your son might have been bullied by one only kid, but no one did anything about it. I personally think that the bully had willing active accomplices in school. Furthermore, the bully definitely had passive accomplices, including the rebbes at school, fellow students, and his parents. None of whom seem to have done anything to protect him. You told how his R”Y set him up for failure and then kicked him out.
Life at home wasn’t much better. His father was a very tough on him (like in shul on Shabbat) and his mother cared too much about what the neighbors say (you wrote a lot about dressing black and white and fitting in with the neighborhood).
So what is there to do? I raised this question 2.5 years ago, and I still don’t have an answer. But lemme try.
– Maybe apologize for whatever you’ve done wrong. From what I gathered, in your conversations with him, no one is willing to give in. Everyone holds their ground.
– Show more concern for his friends. You showed a lot of disdain for them. They are Jewish children also from grieving parents. You seem to just call them the kids on the street. Your son is one of them. Every time you talk bad about them, you are talking bad about your son.
WOW, I’m sorry if I hurt you. I don’t want you hurt. I want the cycle to end.
” Anyone know a book that is kid-friendly? Or anyone know how to teach this in a way that is not too open?”
“from what i understand, brotherofurs can not change this kids lifestyle by dictating who he should hang out with or change what society he is part of. yet brotherofurs want to teach this kid that even though others are not shomer, he should be. the question is how to teach him.”
brotherofurs,
Ongoing peer pressure and raging hormones versus some book (if it even exists) and a lecture. No contest. Try as you should, but don’t get frustrated or angry, not at yourself nor at him. You may plant seeds that will take hold eventually, but be patient and polite.
The best you can do is daven to Hashem to guide him away from bad influences. That is what Bruriah told her husband, Rebbi Meir, to do (B’rachot 10a).
“Now he is surrounded by people that are going to touch girls, and I want to teach him the importance of it.”
You are trying to reason with hormones. It ain’t gonna work.
I think you’ll have better results if you change his environment, which may get him better friends. Get rid of pop culture influences. Give him something constructive to do, that he likes, to keep him very busy.
I have a dryer, but hang up a lot of launrdy.
The way I expedite the drying is by using a fan. It takes a fraction of the time. Wash in the evening, hang up with a fan blowing, and it’s dries overnight.
“We however derive our understandings based on our tradition, our Torah greats, our oral Torah.”
Still and all, even with our traditional understanding, many of us don’t devote much time to NaCh
There is a joke that Yeshivot are non-prophet institutions.
There may be some overlap, but it seems to me that they attract different types of young men. KBY is hesder, whereas NIRC is an American and Yeshivish – from what I understand more “out of town” yeshivish.
Try putting a big menorah under the tree.
It will attract some people in their trucks with lots of flashing lights. All the neighbors will come out to see (and smell) what’s happening. You might even make the nightly news. Huge parsumai nissa 🙂
PAA,
Thank you !
PAA said, “Tosafos in Gittin 41b ?”? ?? holds that a woman is obligated in ???, but this position is not accepted by the codifiers of halacha.”
PAA, can you please cite where it’s (not) mentioned in the Tur, Sh”Ar, Kitzur, Aruch Hashulchan, etc.
Lashon sagi nahor
KBY is known as a good hesder yeshivah. As a hesder yeshivah it is clearly Zionist. But from what I understand, it’s not as Zionist as others. I heard that it’s religious hashkafa is more to the right of other hesder yeshivah.
I can’t speak about the halachic issue, but why don’t you inquire from the manufacturer to whom they sell wholesale.
“MDG, what tsniut issue??!!”
Tsniut is harder to pin down. That’s why I did not say “halacha” in regards to tsniut as I did about being king and queen. Although there are some clear rules about Tsniut, it can be more subjective, as there can be more grey areas. How much exposure can a women do without being a turn-on, be it exposure of hair, skin, or voice (singing or talking)? How much appearing in public or on TV is too much? I’m not paskening; I’m just raising the issue.
It seems to me that the charaidi parties either hold like the Rambam or they are ultra strict on tsniut.
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“Devorah & Shlomtzion are contrary to Jewish tradition?”
How did Devorah judge? How could she be a leader? 3 answers given:
1) Her judgements were considered as binding arbitration.
Hence she was not technically a real judge.
2) She ruled based on navua, not on her own.
3) She was the expert in law who told a court of men what to do.
In all three answers, Devorah was not the person making decisions as a leader.
I don’t know about Shlomtzion.
“Shas and United Torah Judaism seem to be utterly disinclined to have any.”
Interesting that you ask now. Two days ago, the Daf Yomi included the words that it’s a man way to conquer but not a woman’s.
Here is something I found online:
Here is a summary of the halakhic literature based on an excellent article by Rabbis Aryeh and Dov Frimer in 2007. In the book of Devarim (17:14-20) the Torah states the laws of appointing a Jewish King. The Midrashic commentary the Sifrei notes that the Torah mentions the word king three times. From the fact that the word king is mentioned three times we must learn something new each time it is mentioned. One of the three things learned is that you may appoint a king – but not a queen.
The Rambam codifies the halakha as follows. “We may not appoint a woman as king. When describing the monarchy, the Torah employs the male form of the word king and not the female. This principle also applies to all other positions of leadership within Israel. Only men should be appointed to fill them.” (Hilkhot Melakhim 1:5) The question we have before us is what is leadership or in Hebrew “serara”? Serara can be understood to be anyone who makes unilateral decisions. There are several rishonim (medieval halakhic decisors) such as the Hinukh, Rashi and Ran who disagree with the Rambam’s interpretation. They limit the scope to just a woman becoming a queen but they allow for a woman to have a leadership role. “
Besides the above halachic issue, there is also a tsniut issue.
“Molecule is not so simple”
Most of us learned about molecules in elementary school.
“In the same article an Askan was bragging how great the education was. He was only fooling himself.”
Actually, he may have had a good education, but as time goes on, insularity has increased as well as romanticizing the shtetel. See Jothar’s comments on the first page of this discussion.
Dr Hall,
You raised an objection to my saying that people didn’t speak Torah Hebrew by saying: ???? ???? ????? ??? ???
My response is from Chulin 137b: ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????
The style of Hebrew used in the Torah (and Mishnah) is unique and is/was not vernacular.
” When I hear about the belief that Rishonim sanctified Yiddish, it makes me think l’havdil, of present day Palestinians claiming ancient ownership of Eretz Yisroel…”
When you tell a lie long enough….
Goq,
Can you try this: when you change a bag and Dan is next, put a knot in the bag so it only holds half. Or put a smaller bag in, if possible. Either way it’ll force him to take care of an overflowing heap.
“Because it was invented by tzadikim”
Another lie. But don’t let truth get in the way of your dogma.
“As for Cyprus, they can easily solve that by not recognizing those marriages”
By ruling that foreign marriages don’t count? A policy like that would also not recognize your marriage either. And if you want to make a complicated bunch of rules to determine which are valid and which aren’t, either people will figure out how to game the system or just live in (more) sin.
“Ivrit is a perversion of lushen hakodesh and as Joseph once said it’s a lushen hatumeh”
Yiddish is a perversion of German, a language that comes from tameim and achzarim. So how is it any better?
oomis said :
“I find it hard to think that our Avos or Moshe Rabbeinu conversationally spoke EXACTLY in the the way the Torah is written.”
Actually, Chazal tell us that the lashon of the Torah was unique. In other words, no person spoke that way as vernacular. I’m now at work; I will B”N find the source later.
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golfer said:
“I’m not sure E Ben Yehuda is the man for the job. In fact I think we have a pretty strong argument he’s not.”
While I agree with you, I think that the frum kind of dropped the ball on that one. Why are the chilonim the ones that are defining modern Hebrew starting with EBY?
“No animal is ever killed exclusively for shtreimels…”
“The shtreimel is typically custom-made for the intended wearer, of genuine fur, from the tips of the tails typically of Canadian or Russian sable, stone marten, baum marten (Pine Marten), or American gray fox.” (from wikipedia)
No, I don’t think anyone is having sable, marten, or fox burgers. Those animals are killed exclusively for their fur.
monroeyidd, you can change your user name, but you’re still just as (un)educated.
I’m sorry that my comment was not clear enough. I was really addressing barlev who mentioned shtrimels as “hilig zachen” worth $20,000+. To me, those words sound like an excuse to indulge. Gedolim know how to use the physical world for mitsvot. For some of us, it’s the opposite. Can you find me a quote like “hilig zachen” from any of the Gedolim talking about their shtrimels?
“There’s no minhag of wearing a mink jacket.”
True, but as the Gemara in Yevamot 62b (coming up soon in the Daf Yomi) says, a man is supposed to show love and respect to his wife. This could be one way of doing so.