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Raboysai, what in the world are you talking about? If you want to view Gehenom as a cleansing process, it is not like taking a shower! It is full of tremendous pain. And the reason for that is that Gehenom is always a punishment. Just it is that better people get punished and then ascend to receive their reward. I know nowadays people donât like to hear about punishment, but the truth must be said.
An aside clarification: neither Lenin or Stalin were Jews. The First may have had a meshumad grandfather. Stalin was a Georgian.
Sorry, I need to correct the typos. I meant to write that the opinion in the Gemora preferring amkus didnât mean to endorse am aratzus and having no yadios.
Also I meant to write that going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper way to acquire yadios.Truth seeking, you donât need that many years to learn how to learn. You need to acquire the yadios. Going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper to acquire them.
TAS, having no yadios is not an option. That opinion in the Gemora meant to endorse am aratzus.I strongly protest the OPâs and Josephâs statements !
Chabadshlucha, the key word is “a lot”. Eating a cone of ice cream for one’s own pleasure is not a bitul of “Kedoshim tihyu…”.
Chabadshlucha: 1.I am a Misnaged — i don’t have the Rebbe’s sichos standing on my shelf. So, could you, please, elaborate.
2.Sorry, but you misunderstood me. I meant shitas Ramban and Rabbeinu Bechaya who say that ”Kedoshim tehiyu…” means not going a lot after any permissible pleasure.Chabadshlucha, I don’t disagree much with you. The Shulchan Aruch says one should do mutar things le’shem Shamaim, but if one doesn’t — his action is not praiseworthy (except for one activity, but it is not poshut).
Please, do bring the sources for the ”Kadesh es…”Joseph, +1.
Also, TLIK, to come out with a new Halochic status of “chole regashi” is a tremendous chiddush. This category does not exist in the classical sourses.
TLIK, please, pay attention. The Satmar Dayanim were talking about Halochic issues which can be relevant in this area. It may be that the other Gedolim were not talking about kofrim and so on etc. There is a difference between a trouble maker who does aveiros and a min. It also makes a difference in hanhogah which case you are talking about. How about a fellow who became frei 12 years ago, moved out and doesn’t keep in touch? You can’t dismiss the Satmar Dayonim’s opinon without going through their seifer and showing how their proofs are wrong.
TLIK, whatever Rav Schteineman said, it doesnât mean that the Satmar Dayonim donât know what they are talking about, and thereâs no room to say what they said.
Joseph, TLIK is a lady — it is clear from the way she writes.
TLIK, you are not a TALMID CHOCHAM, and you are not in a position to argue with the Satmar Dayonim. Rambam says that if someone became a kofer and he is not a tinok she’nisbah (meaning brought up not frum), we as a community do not accept him be’teshuvah (even though Ha’SHem does, at least according to one pshat).
TLIK, there is no such a status in these Halochos as a choleh. If someone is Halochically insane (a shoteh), then he is patur. If not, he is a mumar. There can be a mumar with a limud zechus on him – fine, but he is still a mumar. I am not telling you what to do, I am just explaining to you such a person’s Halochic status.
Little that I know, many statements- not true.
As you can not accuse the Chazon Ish, you canât accuse the Satmar Dayanim either.Takes2…, ridiculous! Look in seifer âChofetz Chaim â in the first couple of chapters.
Chabadshlucha, your pshat in kadesh es atzmecha is not the pshat of the Rishonim. Itâs also dangerous as it places an obligation on every Yid to grow in levels of chassidus – it was not meant for everyone.
Your last paragraph I didnât understand 100%.Little I know, I was not necessarily speaking what to do le’ma’ase. I was just addressing the wrong hashkofic statements and the twisting of the Torah. One name? Look in Rambam, Hilchos Teshuvah where he speaks about the greatness of teshuvah and there he describes how HKB’H views a sinner before he does teshuvah. (I don’t remember which perek off hand.) What to do practically under the circumstances is one question, but theoretically if there is a need for pressure to be applied to the ba’al aveirah there are plenty of sources for that.
Little I know, remember Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon HaâKohen?
1. Not all motivations are good. 2. Kedoshim tihyu just means not engaging in very big taâavos.
To go to higher levels the fear doesnât help because one does not get punished or gets a roshah label for not going there.
The little I know, your Western society attitude in not in accordance with the Torah. A transgressor is not as much of a child of HKBH. We are his law enforcement officers, just in this country we canât do it.
Chabadshlucha, keeping away from issurim and doing all the obligatory mitsvos properly is already a really big thing. Your mashalim donât help in situations where one has a serious yetzer hara to do something one is not supposed to do.
Itâs not only fear of punishment- itâs also fear of being labeled âa rashahâ in Heaven.
SHY, I didnât mean his level of observance, but rather the level of his neshomah.
Seychal HaYashar, the 20 old statement is not to be taken literally.
Iâll tell I would not have become frum and progressed further if not for yiras haâonesh.Seychal HaYashar, simple folk today are not on the spiritual level of Rambamâs amâaratzim. Yeridas haâdoros…
I meant many of the other motivations would not move me.
Chabadshlucha, I am such a person. And on the contrary the many of the other motivations would move me. I agree with Joseph.
Sechel HaYahar, that Rambam is meant for baâalei madreigah, and we are speaking of simple folk here.Bitul Torah, I meant. Auto spell check đ
Typical Joseph. Granted Rabbi Miller held like that. I donât know if Chafetz Chaim did. Chazal donât appear to imply like that. Okay, but you should not let your friendships lead to botulism Torah either.
Zahavasdas, Aharon never entered E. Yisroel.
Gaon, you are wrong as far as historical facts go. Secular European Jews in Germany, Austro-Hungary etc. either did not believe in G-d (most of them) or did not believe that he gave us the Torah. Secular Eastern European Jews were Socialists, Communists, secular Maskilim who did not believe in God.
Gaon, being a koifer is not better than being a Christian. The aversion to conversion is an emotional/historic reality, but according to Halochah it doesnât hold true (except for chezkas yichus).
I also follow the principle that if someone is exposed to Yiddishkeit enough, he loses the tinok sheânishba status, but an extenuating circumstance it definitely is ( not being brought up frum).Gaon, to start with: I wrote that he and his parents, mestama, did not believe in G-d.
Yihusdik, what kind of an outrageous claim is this – that matrilineal descent was not followed?
CS, it wasnât too heavily Kabbalistic.
Gaon, Hertzl was born, as we are told, into a secular European family- meaning they didnât believe in G-d or kept anything and didnât mind intermarring. It is not, Halochically speaking better than conversion. And again, bear in mind the circumstances of his upbringing.
Gaon, if they violate pretty much everything, itâs not much better. Itâs called a mumar for all of the Torah. Plus, I explained already where those Ashkenazim come from, and the Sefardi way of being frei is also based on a major chesoron.
Litvishechossid, my arguments are not weak- itâs just you have to be willing to listen. Change the attitude. But now, let me elaborate: 1)Believing the Orthodox way and doing anything you want is not much better than Reform. Itâs just that the Ashkenazim are more din-type of people- they donât like to think they are doing something wrong. Thatâs why they may be tempted to even say kefirah to justify themselves. The Sefardim have no such problems – for them âwe have yetzer haâraâ is enough of a reason. 2)About the sheitls. If a woman follows her Rov who holds they are ok, she fulfills her obligation. I know there is a problem nowadays that most of them look too good, but those Poskim hold it doesnât negate her fulfilling of the obligation. I find it galling that Sefardim should be talking about tznius. The officially Orthodox but not erlache Sefardim violate the laws of modesty in a much more flagrant way than the Ashkenazim of the same type.
Litvishechossid, i did not want to talk about it, but if it is necessary, i will. First of all, it is best to avoid these type of arguments for the sake of sholom, but if there is a need to answer/know for yourself:
1. Reform? Non-erlache Sefardim can be Reform without declaring themselves Reform — they just go and do anything they want without much explanation or attempting to justify themselves;
2. Sheitels? Some Sedardi Poskim allowed them also. Plus, it is better to use a sheitel than go with uncovered hair, you know. Also, prancing around immodestly dressed is not okay either.
3. There never was intermarriage by frum Ashkenazim. By frei there was. Yes, it is true Sefardim usually have inborn emunah and warm feelings towards Torah and mitzvos, but they ‘compensate” by being lax in keeping it.
4.Rosh wrote that we, the Ashkenazim, have a strong mesorah from the times of the Beis Ha’Mikdash.edited
Redleg, according to you how the difference in looks between different nations came about? It has not been that long since the time of Noach.
Joseph, there is a mishna in Negoim which says that a Yid’s skin is lighter than an African’s skin, but darker than that of a German.
Litvishechossid, #1 spelling everything out won’t help anything, so, I am keeping quiet; #2 the Iranian Jews also look like Ashkenazim.Litvisherchossid, I have what to answer about the Yiddishkeit part, but we are dealing with a shailah of limud kategoria on Klal Yisroel. So, it has to be a really valid reason for us to speak about it.
Litvisherchossid, most Ashkenazim donât have light hair. Darker skin color is more prevalent in people from southern, sunny countries. As simple as that.
Litvishchossid, most Russian and Polish Jews do not have blue/green eyes.
Joseph, I read that actually the Ashkenazim came from Bovel and Sefardim – from Eretz Yisroel.
Gaon, this is how other Achronim learn it with the Brisker Rovâs girsa.