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Seychal HaYashar, simple folk today are not on the spiritual level of Rambam’s am’aratzim. Yeridas ha’doros…
I meant many of the other motivations would not move me.
Chabadshlucha, I am such a person. And on the contrary the many of the other motivations would move me. I agree with Joseph.
Sechel HaYahar, that Rambam is meant for ba’alei madreigah, and we are speaking of simple folk here.Bitul Torah, I meant. Auto spell check 🙁
Typical Joseph. Granted Rabbi Miller held like that. I don’t know if Chafetz Chaim did. Chazal don’t appear to imply like that. Okay, but you should not let your friendships lead to botulism Torah either.
Zahavasdas, Aharon never entered E. Yisroel.
Gaon, you are wrong as far as historical facts go. Secular European Jews in Germany, Austro-Hungary etc. either did not believe in G-d (most of them) or did not believe that he gave us the Torah. Secular Eastern European Jews were Socialists, Communists, secular Maskilim who did not believe in God.
Gaon, being a koifer is not better than being a Christian. The aversion to conversion is an emotional/historic reality, but according to Halochah it doesn’t hold true (except for chezkas yichus).
I also follow the principle that if someone is exposed to Yiddishkeit enough, he loses the tinok she’nishba status, but an extenuating circumstance it definitely is ( not being brought up frum).Gaon, to start with: I wrote that he and his parents, mestama, did not believe in G-d.
Yihusdik, what kind of an outrageous claim is this – that matrilineal descent was not followed?
CS, it wasn’t too heavily Kabbalistic.
Gaon, Hertzl was born, as we are told, into a secular European family- meaning they didn’t believe in G-d or kept anything and didn’t mind intermarring. It is not, Halochically speaking better than conversion. And again, bear in mind the circumstances of his upbringing.
Gaon, if they violate pretty much everything, it’s not much better. It’s called a mumar for all of the Torah. Plus, I explained already where those Ashkenazim come from, and the Sefardi way of being frei is also based on a major chesoron.
Litvishechossid, my arguments are not weak- it’s just you have to be willing to listen. Change the attitude. But now, let me elaborate: 1)Believing the Orthodox way and doing anything you want is not much better than Reform. It’s just that the Ashkenazim are more din-type of people- they don’t like to think they are doing something wrong. That’s why they may be tempted to even say kefirah to justify themselves. The Sefardim have no such problems – for them “we have yetzer ha’ra” is enough of a reason. 2)About the sheitls. If a woman follows her Rov who holds they are ok, she fulfills her obligation. I know there is a problem nowadays that most of them look too good, but those Poskim hold it doesn’t negate her fulfilling of the obligation. I find it galling that Sefardim should be talking about tznius. The officially Orthodox but not erlache Sefardim violate the laws of modesty in a much more flagrant way than the Ashkenazim of the same type.
Litvishechossid, i did not want to talk about it, but if it is necessary, i will. First of all, it is best to avoid these type of arguments for the sake of sholom, but if there is a need to answer/know for yourself:
1. Reform? Non-erlache Sefardim can be Reform without declaring themselves Reform — they just go and do anything they want without much explanation or attempting to justify themselves;
2. Sheitels? Some Sedardi Poskim allowed them also. Plus, it is better to use a sheitel than go with uncovered hair, you know. Also, prancing around immodestly dressed is not okay either.
3. There never was intermarriage by frum Ashkenazim. By frei there was. Yes, it is true Sefardim usually have inborn emunah and warm feelings towards Torah and mitzvos, but they ‘compensate” by being lax in keeping it.
4.Rosh wrote that we, the Ashkenazim, have a strong mesorah from the times of the Beis Ha’Mikdash.edited
Redleg, according to you how the difference in looks between different nations came about? It has not been that long since the time of Noach.
Joseph, there is a mishna in Negoim which says that a Yid’s skin is lighter than an African’s skin, but darker than that of a German.
Litvishechossid, #1 spelling everything out won’t help anything, so, I am keeping quiet; #2 the Iranian Jews also look like Ashkenazim.Litvisherchossid, I have what to answer about the Yiddishkeit part, but we are dealing with a shailah of limud kategoria on Klal Yisroel. So, it has to be a really valid reason for us to speak about it.
Litvisherchossid, most Ashkenazim don’t have light hair. Darker skin color is more prevalent in people from southern, sunny countries. As simple as that.
Litvishchossid, most Russian and Polish Jews do not have blue/green eyes.
Joseph, I read that actually the Ashkenazim came from Bovel and Sefardim – from Eretz Yisroel.
Gaon, this is how other Achronim learn it with the Brisker Rov’s girsa.
Gaon, as far as the Peirush Ha”Mishnayos goes, I have to look it up, but in the Yad he clearly does not go like that. He says that Tzedukim who have not been exposed to Yiddishkeit are anusim and tinokos she’nishbu. The ”ein lemaher lehargan” goes on those who were exposed to Yiddishkeit. And we follow the Yad over the Peirush Ha’Mishnayos. And this is how the Achronim learn it. Read the Rambam carefully, you’ll see it is meduyak be’lshono.
5ish, do you seriously believe that it’s impossible to daven properly before the z’man? It sounds very, very shver.
Gaon, as a side point, that’s not what Rav Chaim Brisker meant. Otherwise, Tzedukim who were never exposed to real Yiddishkeit would not be considered tinokos she’nishbu.
5ish, by the Mussar movement there were less alarming signs, and, consequently, they were never put in cherem, and to a small degree there were problems later (see “Emunah ve’Bitochon” by Chazon Ish).MoshiachChat, I meant what I wrote. Namely, that you don’t need to be a huge Gadol to read a Rambam about Moshiach properly. And even if some famous Gadol tries to say some very shver pshat in it, a learned, but not famous, individual can disagree with that pshat.
Put down the gun, that point was just an additional snif – the main reason was stated before. Plus, the Rebbe has 39 volumes of chiddushim on sugyos Ha’Shas? I have never heard about it.
MoshiachChat and Chabadshluchah, 2 things:
1. Quoting different Gedolim who said big compliments about the Rebbe carries little weight- they were were very nice and humble people who would compliment other Rabbis.
2. MochiachChat, even if an Achron says a pshat in something and a learned person (who is not officially a famous Rabbi) finds it very shver, he is allowed to disagree (depending on the circumstances). Reading a Rambam about Moshiach is such a case. It is very straightforward. Plus, the Rebbe was not known as a huge Gadol ba’Torah on the level of Rav Aharon Kotler or Rav Akiva Eiger.B-P, as far as “the baseless accusations” go, I believe I have written enough to prove my point.
Sechel HaYashar, you can’t, but see my post addressed to Bratzki Poretz. That obligation applies only to men though.
B-P, one must try to learn all of the Torah. I am not familiar with what Lubavitchers learn first hand, but that’s the reputation that they have (unlike other Chassidim). Do Lubavitcher ba’alei batim also learn Gemorah seriously?
Bratzki Poretz, I didn’t call anybody a cult. I just explained the reason for the disapproval expressed by the Misnagdim regarding Chassidism, and particularly Chabad and Breslav.
Also if someone keeps all the mitsvos, but has heretical beliefs, such a person is a heretic. That is not to say the majority of the Lubavitchers are heretics.
Also, you don’t really fulfill your obligation of limud Ha’Torah by learning Tanya and ChiTaS only.Sechel HaYashar, I didn’t for a second question that what that Lubavitcher did was right be’etzem. However, the accent must be on doing what HaShem wants , not on dedication to doing the will of the Rebbe or hiskashrus with him. It was a very disturbing change of accents.
Put down the gun (Sechel HaYashar, come too – you wanted to hear about the Christian theology), that statement from the Tanya you have to be extremely careful with. Anybody who takes it totally literally is guilty of minus. Why is Christianity an avodah zorah? Because they believe in the concept of trinity- that G-d and J. and the Holy Spirit are actually three parts of one indivisible G-d.
Also my point was that Lubavitchers associate with their Rebbes attributes and functions that other frum Jews associate with G-d. You don’t give din ve’cheshbon in front of the Rebbe-you give it in front of G-d. It was a jarring statement to make! One risks one’s life because of fealty to G-d – not to do the will of the Rebbe.Sechel HaYashar, I am not going to speak about the details of my biography here, and insulting me won’t help your cause. Sorry, though, for misspelling your screen name.
Put the gun down, please, elaborate on your answer. (Not the insults part.)Seckel HaYashar, I was in a rush and misspelled it.
Put down the gun, some of them in our time ended up declaring that the Rebbe is a part of G-d. It didn’t come from nowhere. A couple of stories with regular ( not open minim) Lubavitchers from awhile ago which illustrate my point: a) one Lubavitcher telling another that he must remember that one day he will have to stand in front of the Rebbe and give din ve’cheshbon; b) a Lubavitcher explanation of a certain Chabadnik being able to risk his life for Yiddishkeit: his total mesirus to do the will of the Rebbe.
Bratzki Poretz, let me respond. There were reasons for the reaction of the Litvish Gedolim. Lubavitch is not 99% like the others. It was founded with very different fundamental hashkovos than what was the mesorah before that time – views dangerously approaching Christian views.
As far as the pidion shvuiim goes. I am not familiar with the details, but you have to know there are Halochic rules about it: Kohen goes before Yisroel, Talmud Chocham before Am Ha’Oretz even if the latter is more me’yuchas.I am not a Lubavitcher and I don’t know the system from inside, but as far as shidduchim go, those people are, probably, just strict about yichus. Look in the last perek of Kiddushin. Even Rabbi Yochanan had to deal with it.
Volozhin was Chassidish? Really?
Joseph, you have to know how the market works. It may have been rising because of what the investors were thinking Trump was going to do and not because he actually did something. Like they are expecting a tax reform and less regulations. So far he has not done any of that.
Sorry, I meant it in the affirmative: the kings are not supposed to have their own private armies.
Anon…, kings are not supposed to have their own private armies? What are you talking about? Also, I don’t know what you mean by “the bloody history”.
Anon…, Rambam says explicitly that an order of a Jewish King which goes against Halochah is to be disregarded. Plus, he also says that a discretionary war can be waged only with the permission of Sanhedrin.
I am sorry, but it was Shaul who ordered it. Avner refused because it was an aveirah.Doeg did it.
Anon1m0us, ONE example? Okay. Here we go Shaun ordered the army to execute the inhabitants of Nov, the city of Cohanim, but the two main generals (Avnet and somebody else) refused to comply saying it was an average. So the army didn’t do it. Diego did it personally.