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Decency, please, no outrageous right-wing propaganda about the Marxists trying to take away our freedom. It belongs on a red-neck militia website.
I readily acknowledge that I know nothing about the mental health. However, you must admit that the number of suicides is very small in comparison to the number of Covid victims.
Bk613, all the possibilities that you mention are, to a degree, far-fetched. According to you, people should be allowed to keep their business open and working on Shabbos, because he may not make it financially otherwise, and then … So, working on Shabbos should be mutar because of pikuch nefesh.
Also, Syag and Bk613, according to the Shulchan Aruch we don’t sit shivah for someone who committed suicide, because he is a a big rosha. Any comment? (I know there is a heter to sit if the the public does not know what happened, but me’ikar ha’din — one does not unless the fellow was a real shoteh according to Halochah before he did it).bk613, the number of suicides is very small when compared with the number of COVID victims. Also, if the fellow became totally crazy and killed himself, he is a victim. However, if he committed suicide for which he can be partially or fully held responsible, it is different from someone just getting corona and passing against his will.
Rationally Realistic, nobody said that hospitalizations rates are now high in NY — bH, they are not. Cuomo said the measures are meant to prevent things from going bad, because in other countries the second wave also started from small clusters.
Rationally Realistic, to the Sweden question — yes, a roidef. They have a very high death toll. America used to be much less than them, but because of the bungled response by now America overtook them. Also in Sweden they had partial measures in place, and the Swedes being Swedes followed them religiously. That is why their death toll is very high, but only to a point — they had inadequate measures, but they did follow them.
Syag, I believe I need to respond to him so that others will not be influenced by his statements.
Akuperma, your callous disregard for the loss of human life is outrageous! Those people who died in great epidemics a long time ago are dead now – they can not be saved. We are talking about saving people now. There is almost a quarter million Americans dead from corona by now. And it is with partial mitigation measures. It is just a cold?!? A flu is not this deadly!
Trump closed only the Chinese border. He should have closed all borders quickly. Instead he refused to implement all the necessary measures and has been trying to deliberately minimize the pandemic. And yes — pikuach nefesh (saving lives) overrides jobs!
And yes — I heard some Rabbonim saying that Chazal would have forbidden cars because enough people die in accidents. I don’t know if most Rabbonim agree with this.Akuperma, so many people died (many could have been saved if not for the criminal Republican negligence). Your trying to mevatel the loss of human life is despicable!!
Akuperma, and if they had not been taking measures, the death toll could have been 6000+, if not 9000+, by now.
Akuperma, it is 1000 MORE PEOPLE WHO DIED. It is like another intifada. Almost all world governments take it seriously.
Gadolhadorah, talking about our view of the situation, what is milchemes Gog’u’Magog?
There is this accusation about the nursing homes. It needs investigation what he could have done differently, how much he knew etc.
Som1, it was clear from the very beginning (once it appeared in China — before it got anywhere else) that this virus was serious business. It was clear from all the reports — to anybody who is somewhat educated and has his head screwed on right.
New York has a high death toll — true. But once the virus got seeded in NY, there is only so much Cuomo could do. He appears to have done a great job bringing the virus under control BY APPLYING SCIENTISTS-ADVISED PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES !!! IN OTHER PLACES IN THE US IT WAS NOT PROPERLY DONE! Thanks to right-wing lunatics. Just closing the border with China to their nationals was not enough. They reopened in the South against advice of the top doctors who were warning it was going to cause what it did.And also, Som1, don’t let yourself be programmed by the right- wing media which lies even more than the msm when they want to.
Som1, I believe there is no need for further discussions. YOUR WORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES!
Som1, how about Trump dismissing the virus at the beginning, wanting to open the country before it was safe to do so, claiming that the US did a better job containing the virus than others?!? Who caused the outbreak down South if not Trump and his rightwing pals? What was the story with that convention that Trump was planning to have in Florida? And then the Republican reshoim go and try to pick on Fauchi’s words to make an idiot out of him and invalidate everything he says? Sure, Carlson and and co. know more about science and medicine than the best doctors!
To believe that a departed Rabbi is the Moshiach is not apikorsus or idol worship. This much is clear from the Gemora. To belive that he is a part of God is apikorsus.
Philosopher, true — the same applies to severe suffering in this world. Plus, again, being in Gehenom is not like just swallowing one bitter pill for a second.
Coffee addict, it doesn’t mean He loved them. And how about Tehillim 11:5:’’ … and rasha and the one who loves hamas His Soul hates.’’
CS, very nice— some Kabbolah source which who knows what it means.Coffee addict, no, He does not. He doesn’t love Hitler. He doesn’t love Yerovam ben Navat. He hates reshoim.
Again, Gehenom is not just hurting somebody — it it tremendous suffering. Plus, He established all the rules. Why did not He establish just cleansing people without inflicting pain on them?My point is that administering justice is a purpose also. Ha’SHem has a hanhogah of Judgement also, not only of Kindness. He can set whatever rules he wants. If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!
P.S.: and those who burn forever, according to you, what is the purpose and where is the love?CS, you compare disciplining and cleaning with Gehenom? Are you serious? Gehenom is terribly, terribly painful. And it is so, because it is a punishment. Again, if it is done out of pure love, let Ha’SHem do it painlessly— nobody is stopping Him.
CS, if it is done out of great love, why cannot the painful aspect be skipped?
Laskern, yes – hibut ha’kever.
Philosopher, from the question posed at the beginning, one may conclude that some people have misconceptions about it.Raboysai, what in the world are you talking about? If you want to view Gehenom as a cleansing process, it is not like taking a shower! It is full of tremendous pain. And the reason for that is that Gehenom is always a punishment. Just it is that better people get punished and then ascend to receive their reward. I know nowadays people don’t like to hear about punishment, but the truth must be said.
An aside clarification: neither Lenin or Stalin were Jews. The First may have had a meshumad grandfather. Stalin was a Georgian.
Sorry, I need to correct the typos. I meant to write that the opinion in the Gemora preferring amkus didn’t mean to endorse am aratzus and having no yadios.
Also I meant to write that going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper way to acquire yadios.Truth seeking, you don’t need that many years to learn how to learn. You need to acquire the yadios. Going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper to acquire them.
TAS, having no yadios is not an option. That opinion in the Gemora meant to endorse am aratzus.I strongly protest the OP’s and Joseph’s statements !
Chabadshlucha, the key word is “a lot”. Eating a cone of ice cream for one’s own pleasure is not a bitul of “Kedoshim tihyu…”.
Chabadshlucha: 1.I am a Misnaged — i don’t have the Rebbe’s sichos standing on my shelf. So, could you, please, elaborate.
2.Sorry, but you misunderstood me. I meant shitas Ramban and Rabbeinu Bechaya who say that ”Kedoshim tehiyu…” means not going a lot after any permissible pleasure.Chabadshlucha, I don’t disagree much with you. The Shulchan Aruch says one should do mutar things le’shem Shamaim, but if one doesn’t — his action is not praiseworthy (except for one activity, but it is not poshut).
Please, do bring the sources for the ”Kadesh es…”Joseph, +1.
Also, TLIK, to come out with a new Halochic status of “chole regashi” is a tremendous chiddush. This category does not exist in the classical sourses.
TLIK, please, pay attention. The Satmar Dayanim were talking about Halochic issues which can be relevant in this area. It may be that the other Gedolim were not talking about kofrim and so on etc. There is a difference between a trouble maker who does aveiros and a min. It also makes a difference in hanhogah which case you are talking about. How about a fellow who became frei 12 years ago, moved out and doesn’t keep in touch? You can’t dismiss the Satmar Dayonim’s opinon without going through their seifer and showing how their proofs are wrong.
TLIK, whatever Rav Schteineman said, it doesn’t mean that the Satmar Dayonim don’t know what they are talking about, and there’s no room to say what they said.
Joseph, TLIK is a lady — it is clear from the way she writes.
TLIK, you are not a TALMID CHOCHAM, and you are not in a position to argue with the Satmar Dayonim. Rambam says that if someone became a kofer and he is not a tinok she’nisbah (meaning brought up not frum), we as a community do not accept him be’teshuvah (even though Ha’SHem does, at least according to one pshat).
TLIK, there is no such a status in these Halochos as a choleh. If someone is Halochically insane (a shoteh), then he is patur. If not, he is a mumar. There can be a mumar with a limud zechus on him – fine, but he is still a mumar. I am not telling you what to do, I am just explaining to you such a person’s Halochic status.
Little that I know, many statements- not true.
As you can not accuse the Chazon Ish, you can’t accuse the Satmar Dayanim either.Takes2…, ridiculous! Look in seifer “Chofetz Chaim “ in the first couple of chapters.
Chabadshlucha, your pshat in kadesh es atzmecha is not the pshat of the Rishonim. It’s also dangerous as it places an obligation on every Yid to grow in levels of chassidus – it was not meant for everyone.
Your last paragraph I didn’t understand 100%.Little I know, I was not necessarily speaking what to do le’ma’ase. I was just addressing the wrong hashkofic statements and the twisting of the Torah. One name? Look in Rambam, Hilchos Teshuvah where he speaks about the greatness of teshuvah and there he describes how HKB’H views a sinner before he does teshuvah. (I don’t remember which perek off hand.) What to do practically under the circumstances is one question, but theoretically if there is a need for pressure to be applied to the ba’al aveirah there are plenty of sources for that.
Little I know, remember Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon Ha’Kohen?
1. Not all motivations are good. 2. Kedoshim tihyu just means not engaging in very big ta’avos.
To go to higher levels the fear doesn’t help because one does not get punished or gets a roshah label for not going there.
The little I know, your Western society attitude in not in accordance with the Torah. A transgressor is not as much of a child of HKBH. We are his law enforcement officers, just in this country we can’t do it.
Chabadshlucha, keeping away from issurim and doing all the obligatory mitsvos properly is already a really big thing. Your mashalim don’t help in situations where one has a serious yetzer hara to do something one is not supposed to do.
It’s not only fear of punishment- it’s also fear of being labeled “a rashah” in Heaven.
SHY, I didn’t mean his level of observance, but rather the level of his neshomah.
Seychal HaYashar, the 20 old statement is not to be taken literally.
I’ll tell I would not have become frum and progressed further if not for yiras ha’onesh.