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ZD, get it through your head, the American Jewry of that time had very difficult nisoyonos and also was totaly not interested. Stop with your false accusations!
Applesauch,+1.
Leyzer, ZD and Benignuman, YES, YES and YES!It is the chiyuv ha’Torah to live in poverty and oppression and not to go to a different place where it’s easier and go off the derech! Material happiness does not override shmiras ha’mitzvos. Which Rov or Godol you’d expect to say otherwise?
Charliehall, there was already a German unit stationed in Greece to go to E.Yisroel to kill Jews once Rommel captures it. Had he won at El Alamein, nothing would be between him and E.Yisroel. And besides, the claiim is that going to E.Y. was a sure, 100%-proof guarantee against the Nazis (and the Rabbonim should have known it). It obviously was not. The Germans could have gotten there. It is easy to be the-day-after strategist.
DM,There is such a thing as Halochah which determones what’s right. If someone is given to extreme chumros (as the Israeli Chareidim derech klal are and have been) then that person is extreme.
The rule had been even before now that they have to teach the core subjects. Chareidim just disregarded it. Now the government is getting tougher and the Chareidim kick, scream, yell and throw unseemly tantrums saying that they want the money with no string attached.
regarding your responce to ZD. The non-Frum do have the mitsvah of tzedokah but are not obligated to support all the Chareidim forever in kollel.
Ches(Joe), drei nit ken kup.
Lesschumras, a lot of your accusations are unfounded and stated disrespectfully. In many situations the Rabbonim did not have the power to do things or it was impossible to know how the things would turn out. The Germans almost got to Eretz Yisroel and Rabbonim coming to America would not have helped. Ridvaz did come btw and left after he saw he was powerless to stop what was going on.
Health, I generally do not enter into arguments with you, but one short thing. Without those subjects they turn out not having the skills to learn a normal parnossa!!! I am sure you learnt plenty of science to become a doctor,did not you? Not everything the Israeli Government does is evil. OK? It is hypocricy on your part to decry the introduction of the secular studies in E.Y. yeshivos as you yourself learnt plenty of it!
EY Mom, you seem to live in a different E.Yisroel. In your E.Yisroel the Chariedim are not supported by the government and learn the basic subjects (eventhough they themsleves admit that they don’t). Go check your facts. And I doubt your info about the Arabs also.
HaKatan, whar are you talking about?!?!? Those deaths are irrelevant?They show how bad it was in golus. You can’t just count the deaths from the Israeli wars, but diregard those other ones.
Admit to the entire world that they do not represent Jews, but Zionists? What in the world are you talking about?!?The entire world (except for some ignorant Yeshivish fellows such as yourself) realizes that they represent ethnic Jews and not the religion of Judaism. Plus, they live there without persecution (except for some frumaks dreying the kup).
Besides, get over it. The medinah exists. And it is very succesful. Stop clering shailos from the 1930s. Time to move on.
HaKatan, about the losses. Between 50,000 and 200,000 Yidden were killed in pogroms during the Russian Civil war alone (ok, it was the biggest loss around the end of 19 – begining of 20 century, but still).
The shittah that the whole Zionist movement was created to shmad Yidden.
Plus,not everybody holds that the 3 shvuos were an issue.
HaKatan I am familiar with the Brisker shittah on Zionism. Kvodam be’mkomam munch, nobody held like that. Anybody familiar with the history of the Zionist movement knows it has nothing to with reality. Yes, at least, some early Zionists and also Socialists and others were anti-frum and wanted to take people of the derech. That was not, however, the essense of the Zionist movement. And, please, do not start with contentions that the Brisker rov could not be wrong.
And how about a visit to Eastern Europe to see the roots of Zionism in the behavior of the locals?
DM, in my opinion, the Israeli Chareidim have a history of taking extreme and untenable positions. Besides, it looks bad — they want the government funding, but they don’t want to follow the rules. It is high time to stop.
DM, the government does the bidding of the MKs who support it. The frei were forced to act tough. If they don’t, the Israeli Chareidim would never budge. Now, if it is going to be tough for some Chareidim, it is themselves or other Chareidim who brought it about.
HaKatan, the anti-religious sentiment has nothing to do with Zionism. The Government nowdays is not trying to shmad anybody. Stop with the false accusations!
The Mizrachim are relying on a Ramban.
Try going and living in Poland, Russia, Ukraine. Try to walk the street with a yarmulke on there. You’ll understand a lot about the roots of Zionism.
Yuchusdic, come on, it is obvioulsy a chesoron to desire power for it’s own sake. Btw, i have not admitted anything here.
DM, I hear what you are saying. I guess since the frei are the ones who pay the bills sometimes you need to compromise without being over issurim.
Yichusdic, I totaly disagree it is about power. In fact, I moche on the bizayon of Talmidei Chachomim. They are just big machmirim over there.
Mammele, something is either muttar or ossur. If something is muttar and you just machmir, you can’t make a tumul about it. At least, do not expect others to pay for your chumros.The Halochah about the secular education does change from here to E.Yisroel.
DY, you realize that you did really answer the Yichusdic’s very straight-forward question?
Derech HaMelech, people very often need secular education to earn(not to shnorr) a parnossah.
Sam2, derech klal, ba’ale batim knew less. There were tons of Amoratzim who never went to Yeshiva– pressures of earning parnossa, lack of chashivus Ha’Torah etc.
Peerisimchah — it is a disaster to make a chillul HaShem!
Yytz, they act like that in all situations.
Ha’Levi, there are limits to that also.
Yishmoel-like behavior. The don’t have gedorim for truth. Anybody there can say the most outrageous, preposterous lies with a straight face.
So, Sam2, you need to know that by saying things like that you machzik yad ovrei aveirah.
So, Sam2, let me remind you that about many shailos you can find some shvere da’as yochids that we don’t pasken like. If you start going with them you can matir 75% of Shulchan Aruch!
Sam2,how are things at YU? Let’s just let them do whatever they want, right? Is Rav Teitz a Posek?
Writesoul, I don’t care if it is harsh, it’s the truth. I did not mean to say it is malicios. I meant to say she knowingly(be’mezid) violates the issur.
Torah613Torah. the Gemorah discusses all, and I mean, all kinds of things if it is nogeah le’Halochah.
Interjection, which school said that?!?! And besides, why does she do it? Because she has a heter(which there is not)? Or she is just doing what she wants? If she thought there was a heter to do what she does now she would uncover even more! She is just disregarding the Halochah!
It is not a mitsva to love reshoim. The mitsva applies only to erliche Yidden or true tinokos she’nishbu.
Syag Lchochmah, I do not care whom I agree with — I said what is the truth.
Interjection, which leniencies are you talking about. The knees must be covered. Period.
Bizybody, +1.
Need seminary help, all this sugar-coating for a ba’alas aveirah. Oy-vey.
I was aggressive in response to your aggressiveness towards our practice of Halochah.
Brony, there are many things to learn. Reasons for pointing with the pinky is not high priority for me. Got it?
Brony, covering the knees is Halochic. I do not have the time now to give a shiur here. Speak to a Rov. I am not going to deliver a shiur here every time some MO or Mo-inclined fellow comes and starts questioning established things.
Are you a Posek that you decide things?
Have you ever heard of “Minhag Yisroel — Torah”?
Why pinky? For all I know the source might be in Kabbolah.
Who are you to agressively attack everything we do?
the pointing is a minhaf. Ken ama dvar!! And it is mentioned in the siddur as a minhag.
Btw, you are so off!!! By you a self-created safek is le’kula!
About the second one, I have not seen anybody do it. Again don’t jump to conclusions.
Brony, if there is an accepted Halochic practice in a community, if you want to question it, it is you who has to bring proofs to the contrary.
Gefen ,it is not different than Shabbos, even though Sotan would like you to believe otherwise.
Ha’Levi, if the Israeli Chareidim behaved differently, it could have been done differently.
Rationalfrummie, why in your view critisizing those who are wrong is bad? I know it is not very American, but that does not make it wrong.
GAW, let me help you. If someone learns and has reached the level of paskening shailos, he is a Talmid Chocham.You must respect him, unless he is a bona-fide roshah. When in doubt, be machmir as it is a chomure de’Oraisa. Get it?
GAW, look in the “Chafets Chaim” for the definition of a Talmud Chocham.
KND, you did not answer anything of substance — you said it’s a zechus. Exactly, but you can’t push a zechus on somebody unwilling to get it.
You seem to be unaware of the situation in EY. Many Chareidim are extreme machmirim on Talmud Torah and would not go to the army even if it were glatt kosher. Their ta’ana it is all bitul Torah.
KND, mainstream American Chareidim work for a living — something the Israeli Chareidim refuse to comprehend.
KND, convey the message to whom, for crying out loud
?!?
KNS, for the upteenth time it is not an inborn, unalienable right of every Isr. Chareidi to be in learning forever and be supported by others. Stop with the twisted propaganda!!!
I meant “how we talk”.
Truthsharer, we should be careful about who we talk about Talmidei Chachomim even if we don’t hear what they are saying.
Da’as Yochid, do you have anything to say about the wise words of WIY?
KND, it is not an inborn,unalienable right of every Chareidi to be supported in learning forever by others.
PBA, I am not totally justifying the frei, but the Israeli Chareidim provoke the frei and get under their skin with their behavoir — they partially brought it on themselves.