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Nishtdayngesheft, I agree with one thing — you’d sure know what “fanatical” means. Btw, I do not agree with the abovementioned graduate of Ner Yisroel.
HaKatan, you are wrong. It is useless to reason with you. I won’t do that anymore.
HaKatan, do you seriously think that all those early Zionist pioneers who went to live and work and restore the E.Y. under very difficult and with time dangerous conditions were moser nefesh to build a place to shmad Jews? That they left on opportunity to go to America just to do the above? Do you really think that the mass popular support that the Zionists enjoyed among Eastern European Jews was due to all of them being bent on taking others off the derech? Did you read what Hetzel wrote about how and why he decided to start the movement? Do you live in an alternate universe? Did you yourself “gelernt in Brisk” or somebody else who taught you?
Btw, if you are such a Brisker fan how come do you live in America (which I take you do) — the Rov held it was a treifene medinah?
HaKatan, some history reading is in order for you as I have pointed out. I’ll speak Yeshivish: The Brisker shittah is a very,very,very shvere one. Get it?
HaKatan, you are wrong.
Joe(About Time), have a good day.
HaKatan, did you review the history of the subject as asked? Like I said most of them were frei. A lot of them were kofrim. The Brisker claim is,however, that they started the whole movement in order to take Yidden off the derech. And that was not what happened.
HaKatan, when oso roshah spoke of normalizing the Jewish conditon he meant giving them a land and a state of their own where they’ll be safe and become like the rest of the world.
Agreed, most of the Zionists were frei– hence their views. The primary purpose of the movement was,however,to create a safe haven for Jews. Do you know how and why Hertzel decided to create the movement? Do you know why most of the support they had came from Poland and Russia? Go learn some history then we’ll talk.
HaKatan, I’m sorry to tell you that the old Brisk accusation that the sole purpose of Zionism is to shmad Yidden has nothing to do with reality.
Secondly, it is the cavalier attitude of Akuperma that revolts many here. Get it?
Yea, HaKatan, if one soldier gets killed in in the IDF, you and your ilk go positively crazy with anti-Zionist rhetoric. In golus, however, if Jews died in their thousands or worse, who cares much? Right?
Nfgo3, Parshas Ki Savo and Bechukoysai speak of the Holocaust, but I agree that his cavalier attitude towards the Yiddishe tzoros is very wrong!
Derech HaMelech, get it through your head: It is not an inborn unalienable right of the Israeli Chareidim to stay in kollel forever on the Israeli taxpayers’money. To compare the denial of that “right” to the Shaoh is an outrage. Many of the Akuperma’s post are outrageously off!
HaKatan, stop your lies!! Forget about 1937, etc. Agudah Gedolim who are a clear majority do not go by your extreme Satmar/Brisk shittos. Your dreing is outrageous!
Again, HaKatan has no answers!!!
It is outrageous that HaKatan continues with his lies and distortions. Namely, he tries to ignore the fact that most Gedolim do not hold like Brisk/Satmar.
HaKatan has no answers!
And let him not speak of cheap pot shots. They are as cheap as his propaganda.
HaKatan still insists that 2+2=9. Anybody agreeing? Where is Joe(About Time)?
About Rav Gifter — total baloney -propaganda.
Just Emes, stop wasting time with HaKatan and he’ll go away (to Kiryas Yoel).
DM, Rav Shach did not hold that the medinah and IDF must be disbanded as the NK holds.
HaKatan, you’d hold that 2+2=9 if that’s needed for your anti-Zionist views.
Rav Moshe held it was ok because the UN gave reshus.
HaKatan, according to your logic, the opinions of the Rov and the Satmar Rebbe don’t count — they were anti-Zionists.
Chacham Ovadia and Shas are official memebers of WZO. If they did not hold of Zionism why they would be there?
Just Emes, +1.
HaKatan, Chacham Ovadya and the Shas are official membres of the World Zionist Organisation Need I say more? I guess I do. What’s the weather like in Teheran? Going together with Joe and daniella to meet Achmenadjad to discuss the evil of Zionism? I’ll bet he’ll agree with you folks. Have a nice time there!
ROB, +1.
HaKatan, and I presume that you on purpose viciously drei the kup.
HaKatan, I truly hate when you and your friend Joe drei the kup. The Agudah Gedolim and non-Satmar Rebbes were not Zionists, but they did not hold of your extreme Satmar/Brisk shittah.
ZD is right on the money with his Reb Ya’akov story. Even the Satmar Rebbe was forced to admit there were miracles, but he attributed them to the Sotan. Reb Ya’akov disagreed.
The Agudah Gedolim and the non-Satmar Rebbes have not been spewing the extreme hate of Israel as you do. Enough already!!!
Stop harping about the Rov and Reb Elchonan, what about others?!?
HaKatan!!!The Agudah Gedolim and most of the Rebbes did not hold like that!! Don’t you dare pretend it never happened!
Just Emes, +1
Sam2, what you wrote is outrageous! That Gemorah never meant that we should not accept Geirim. Look in the last 2 lines in Reb Daniel’s post. I do agree with him.
PBA, I have never seen a weird Ger and I’ve seen a fair amount of them. Plus, as Mamele pointed out “weird” does not equal “insincere” or “bad”. I do not know if there is a high rate of them lapsing, but whatever cases there are they probably, at least, in part caused by the way they are treated.
HaKatan, this is our outrageous! Rav Ya’akov Kamenetzky, Rav Moshe and other Agudah Gedolim did not hold like that. Neither do the Chassidim except for Satmar. Stop the obfuscation!
Yussel, there is a chiyuv to stop aveiros from being done if possible.
ZD, Austria is not Germany. Find out more then we’ll talk.
Sam2, it might be not so proper, but I am not sure it is ossur — Islam is not an avodah zorah.
ZD, the last thing the Austrian Germans want is more Jews over there.
ZD, there’s a draft there.
Just as a P.S.: HaKatan, just because they say something in Brisk, it does not mean it is emes min ha’Shomaim. Why don’t they try moving back to Poland or Russia if it is that bad in Israel?
HaKatan, I disagree with your extreme view. And let’s end the argument. I do not concede defeat though by any means.
Sam2, Islam is not an avodah zorah.
Syag le’chochmah, people who do bad things are bad. That’s the emes al pi Torah. Maybe, some people these days can not accept this, but that is the truth.
HaKatan, secular Zionism is kefirah. I agree.
The 3 Shvuos — there are shittos about it. Ein ze mkoma shel sugya zu.
Rock throwing? How about not being able to wear a yarmulke in the street in many European countries for fear of attack? I am not even talking about a black hat. In Israel, you could do it.
HaKatan, your hilukim about the shelters and missiles are shvach. Anyhow, stop falsifying the shittos of the Gedolim. They did not held like the Brisker Rov and the Satmar Rebbe!It seems like no matter what arguments I present, you’ll keep on repeating your propaganda. Enough already!
Plus, about the missile shields etc. Do us a favor, drei nit ken kup. The US and Russia have missile shields. Russia also has a border fence. So?
HaKatan,again, I do not say that the Zionists were right. What I am saying is that after objectively looking at all the circumstances, your position should not have been so extreme and vicious. Most Gedolim do not hold like Brisk and Satmar. 3 Oaths is also not so simple at all as you present it. Just because you push the Satmar shittah it does not become the only pshat.
Shelters? Have you heard of pogroms? It did not mean some anti-Semites throwing two stones through the window. It meant murder, maiming, bnos Yisroel assaulted etc. All of these on a massive scale. Have you heard of anti-Semitic laws in the Russian Empire and the persecution in Poland and other places. Of daily persecution in Europen countries? Do not pretend it never happened!
HaKatan, stop harping about the shmad and those killed. Had they stayed in Russia, Poland, Hungary etc., they would have been either shamded or killed or faced oppression from the Goyim there. You and your freinds keep your head in the sand about it. It was the the European anti-Semitism which caused Zionism. Stop pretending it was just some crazy idea which appeared out of nowhere!
ZD, I meant people who came right before the war when I wrote “1930s”.
So, ZD? What’s your point? I know keeping people from going off the derech is of no value to you.
ZD, you are wrong. The Yiddishkeit was rebuilt from the more frum Europen refugees of late 1930s and 1940s. Without their influx, the Gedolim would not be able to do anything. They needed a frume olam. The previous wave Jews were mostly irrevocably lost.
AviK, nobody coulld have known that before the fact.
And why, Katan, the economy could be good in the Zionist state?
Saving lives al pi Torah. You are not really right. Dovid ha’Melech went to war after not big provocations.
Baloney, Katan.The reason I mentioned Russia and France is because you can’t walk the street in a yarmulke there.
I am not saying the Zionists are right. It is just your viciousness and unobjectivity annoy me. Take a chill pill. Stop listening to the Brisk/Satmar shittos so much.
ROB, I was not talking about staying in kollel. I was talking about staying frum.
HaKatan, just because you stridently, with great gall spew your propaganda, it does not make you right. Obviously, all those Russian and French Jews who have been running to Israel think it is safer there.