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Jewishfeminist, it is a fact that by the secular people those problems that rebdoniel described are by far more likely to occur.
The-art-of-moi, you are wrong.
Redleg. I am married.
Gamanit, the critisizm was primarily directed at those who put on skirts which clearly never properly cover their knees, even though the Outsider has a very good point.
Ok, the Chol Ha’Moed is over and I can respond.
ROB, there is indeed a ma’amar Chazal telling us to judge certain people le’kaf zechus. However, when it comes to ma’amorei Chazal, you have to know exactly where they apply. Misapplying them could be harmful. This is exactly what you did. When “judging le’kaf zechus” is stretched to the degree where you can’t criticize ba’alei aveirah and consequently they can do their aveiros with great impunity, it is a terrible corruption of the abovementioned important concept.
GAW, so what did you mean — I have not seen your previous posts?
Concerning the P.S. — you can answer that yourself.
ROB, PLEASE, spare me the krum American hashkofos according to which no one can ever be mentioned as having done an aveirah much less criticized for it! So, please!
ROB, you did not elaborate on what shaychos of the “tefach” to our shailah.
ROB, ok, let me settle this. There was no need to mechallel Shabbos for parnossah in Europe (unlike in America). The kosher food was readily available. Not covering the hair did not help alleviate anti-Semitism. Enough of boba mases!
About the skirt length — stop with your fabrications! Who told you that not covering the knee used to be muttar? Again you are not a Talmid Chocham to pasken on it. Plus, see what WIY wrote.
ROB, first, the rules are clear as set by the Poskim — the knees must be covered. It is just that some women don’t listen and they should be castigated until the comply with the rules.
Second, I am not sure what you mean by the “tefach” rule. Please, elaborate.
Third, I did not start out criticizing them. I just said that you can’t bring a proof from what they did.
Truthsharer, because I know history. It is not like they were getting fired from their jobs and had nothing to feed their families with because of their haircovering. They were not harassed or attacked by the Goyim for wearing tichels either(in fact, many Goyim also wore them). There was Haskolah — that’s it.
ROB, I don’t have time now — I’ll get back to you later.
Oomis, you are right — Kimchis’s behavior is not required al pi Halochah. A woman is not allowed to do it against her husband’s will (PBA, do you hear?). But she was right — Chazal agree that it was in the zechus of that chumrah that she merited what she did.
PBA, certain things can’t be discussed here in public. Or, for a change, let’s say he refuses to support her and she says she is not mochel — she has the right to demand the support even though he does not want to support her.
Truthsharer, “denim” is no violation at all. I do not hold of that shvere chumra. I was talking about the violation of the minimum standards of tznius — wearing short skirts, low necklines etc.
ROB, the truth hurts. There were no nisyonos for women to keep their heads covered in Europe — they just did not want to. The same goes for Shabbos (in Europe — not in America)and Tahoras Mishpochah.
Plus, I am a ba’al teshuvah. Don’t tell me about nisyonos!! And my immediate ancestors did not help me — just the opposite (except for some zechus Avos a couple of doros before).
PBA, wrong — there are vetos al pi Halochah. This time you are off again, but to the left.
Unexpectedly, I and RebDoniel agree.
Truthsharer, I did not get your question.
Sam2, that’s R. Moshe’s shittah. Chacham Ovadia disagrees and holds that if he means le’shem Shamaim( for example, he became a bal teshuvah), he is allowed to compel her to keep the Halochah or else (I know, I know -it is not very American thing to do).
ROB, I never said it is. However, it is provocative enough for it to be ossur. That is the accepted psak. I guess the Poskim hold it is part of the shok. Plus, there has to be a boundary some place — “ad kan”. If the lax among the women were allowed not to cover the knee, they would start wearing skirts 3-4 inches above the knee. And that would be only a start — eventually it would go higher. Or according to you, as long as they are not wearing bikinis in public it’s ok. Like I said look up the sugya in Sotah 3A with Rashi.
Plus, about the hair. It is different from the other ervas. Note, single girls don’t have to cover it. It has to be covered because of the Halochah that an eshes ish has to cover her hair and not because it is so provocative in and by itself. I expect you to agree that a lady wearing only not see-through tights without a skirt looks provocative.
Truthsharer, the men there (mostly in Lita where the main pirtza was) were not mekayem this mitzvah (of divorcing of overes al das). A limud zechus on them — they knew the pirtza was so widespread they would not find a better one. And don’t ask me kashos from Europe of 100-140 years ago — the Yiddishkeit was going down. Eventually a lot of them stopped keeping Shabbos and tahoros mishpochah also.
r9913, what krume Moderne zachen!! Are you a student at the Hebrew Union (Reform) College?
Sam2, there is an issue of hirhur and ta’avah still. Look in Igros Moshe. And anyhow it is poshut.
Oomis, the Gemorah already called them that. You can find some Rabbis mattiring things they should not have mattired.
Yehudahyonah, the Gemoarah does not say it is an absolute requirement for a mother of any Kohen Gadol. It just says it is a zechus to get there.
ROB, because “shok be’ishah ervah” — it provokes ta’avah and hirhurim. That’s the reason for the Halochah. This is what the accepted psak is. You don’t know enough to question it. You either just lack “the ruach of tahorah” (look in Sotah 3A) or some individuals might have a different chemical balance, so they don’t feel it.
Yungerman from Lakewood(??!??!?!?!?!…….), what you posted is apikorsus!
Oomis, what if a lady decides to wear no head covering or, worse yet, a miniskirt? Are these straightforward cases?
Gavra-at-work and the rest of the modern-leaning chevrah, there are beferushe Gemoros that it is a mitzvah to get divorced if the wife does not conform to the basic laws of tznius — Gittin 90B, Kesuvos 72A and someplace in Sotah.
ROB, don’t you start up!
do not post your messages in bold. if you continue to do this, I will not approve your posts.
Charliehall, some covering is de’Oraisa as the Gemora (Kesuvos 72A) says. Full covering — de’Rabbonon.
Inrejection, the Gemora on the same daf says that a wife who does not cover her hair “leaves (the marriage) without her kesuvah (paid)”. There is a machlokes in Sotah (I can double-check which daf) if it is a chiyuv to divorce her or a mitzvah. The thing about her not covering the hair at the beginning is a Rav Moshe’s chidduch. Chacham Ovadia differs.
Charliehall, stop bringing up far-off shittos. One can find those on many shailos. The Gemora states explicitly that if a wife does cover her hair, the husband should divorce her.
Harri, the divorce applies to the aveiros that could affect the husband. If she dresses not tzniusdic, we are worried it may come to worse things r”l. Still even about other aveiros, he should be moche.
Harri,they punish in Gehennom even those who do issurim de’Rabbonon. Much hatzlochah in your struggle! Daven for help. At least, you have the right hashkofos aready.
Work on your ahavas ha’mitzvos. It is all in the attitude. Short term — eat less, go for a walk and visit a friend.
Ben Levi, even before the elections any sane person saw what was brewing. And it was not them personally who were provoked. It was the general Israeli public.
Ben Levi, the Chareidim provoked the “gezeiros”.
I am sorry, but I think the “Jerusalem reader” is actually Joe trying to attack Lapid at any cost. On the one hand he wants government hand-outs, on the other — he’s against socialism. Be’kitzur, just keep on giving the Chareidm money despite the objections of the rest of Israel. Right, the “Jerusalem” reader?
Toi, so what’s your plan?
Oomis, I am surprised at your insistence. I agree with what you wrote in substance. That is called “judging favorably(le’kaf zechus)”. Using the term “not judgmental” though invokes the Christian concept of not judging anyone for anything.
Charliehall, it is also to wrong to impose on a tzibur when they mind!
PBA!!?!?!!!… The cuts affect the Chareidim disproportionately because they make themselves poor disproportionately!
Oomis, you want to change “yell” for “judge” — fine. But again there is a clear boundary as to where it applies. When you say:”he is not judgemental”, that goes with the Christian understanding of it.
If someone goes and commits a brutal murder or rape, you would also not judge him?
Shraga18, the Israeli Chareidim provoked the “gezeiros”.
So, Ben Levi, what are they so upset about? Adderabba, they should follow your wise counsel. Namely, less taxes and less programs.
Toi, the Christians hold like that Chasam Sofer though because Yoshke did. Btw where does the Chasam Sofer write so?
Toi, it is a shvere Chasam Sofer. I quoted Rashi. That’s the main stream pshat. Look in the “Chofets Chaim”. According to the Chasam Sofer how can there be a mitsvah to hate reshoim — you are not even allowed to judge them?
Eclipse, I am not from there.
Ben Levi, because the fact is the Chareidi community with a universal kollel system can not survive without the Israeli Government money. And, please(!!), spare me and others the aggravation — do not claim otherwise (that’s why they are going crazy now in Isarel — they took away the money).
Eclipse, you should be healthy and live long!
Oomis, that mishnah does not imply you never judge anyone. It means: do not yell at someone who failed a big nisayon you never had.
Ben Levi, so cut the taxes and the hand-outs! The Chareidim would not be happy with that.
Zahavasdad, I second Notasheep. Go there and look.
MCP, I to a certain degree agree with you. There are Chazals which say doing certain things protects you from general or specific harm or certain aveiros bring certain punishments.
Oomis, not being judgemental is a Christian value, not a Jewish one.
YMIhere, partially, the Charidim provoked them. Partially, there is a limit as to how long they”ll support all the Chareidim.
I would like to protest the bizui Talmidei Chachomim and apikorsus here. The-art-of-moi, use respectful language. Plus, we believe in the power of words. How do you know that that Rov was wrong?
MCP, some of your examples have sources in befeirushe Chazals. Do you belive them?
Live right, I do not blame the women. I blame the schools and the male relatives (especially, the husbands) who do not make them aware of that fact (and other similar ones).
To melamed zechus on Bnos Yisroel — many of them are unaware of how it looks in the eyes of men.
Writesoul, many Jews, especially, outside of the US define Jews as an ethnic group and lav davka a religious one. I know, I know — the kanoim are already going crazy…
ROB, Oomis and others, sometimes voting for a certain candidate is a Halochik matter. ROB, please, stop dreing the kup with your “mili de’alma” ta’anah.
Zahavasdad, I don’t think we disagree. I agree if one wears a baseball cap and blue jeans, there is nothing to worry about.