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Look in the Kesef Mishna, the Beis Yosef does not argue — he has a mesora on the pshat in the Rambam.
About the final psak, ask a Posek — he’ll confirm what I’m saying. “Igros Moshe” has a teshuva(teshuvos) about it. I think he writes like I wrote to you. Double check there.
Ramo is matir to wear special doctor’s suits which were worn by the Goyishe doctors in his time.
Health, now I understand what happened — you followed the words of the Chochmas Odom which follow the pashtus of the words of the Rambam. We, however, do not go like this le’Halocha. Look in Kesef Mishna on that Rambam.
If did pasken like this, we would have a big problem as almost everything we wear originally came from the Goyim.
Health, it is so poshut that I do not think I need to say anything more. I will take another shot at your arguments, however.
Do not give these me these ultra-Yeshiveshe zachen of “this was worn for generation, and that was not” (which is basically the whole mekor for your opinion!). Do not put into Chaye Adam something which is not there.
For something to be assur because of chukos ha’Goyim, it has to be pritsusdic. The nose ring is not objectively so. It is no different than an earring It does not matter what was worn and what was not!!!
Health, what about earrings? What’s the difference?
Health, something is considered pritsusdic if it is provocative vis-a-vis men-women. A nose ring is clearly not.
Skiaddict, sorry for saying it like it is. I am posting here to straighten out some people.
Now, Sam2, I was quite appalled when at the beginning of this thread hardly anyone was upset at someone who did an aveira, and had the nerve to do it in public, and then was mad at a lady for expressing her dismay at her wrongdoing. Instead, almost everybody was speaking out against the woman who opposed the breach of Halocha and all those people were busy inventing issurim that she allegedly was over. Outrageous!!
Sam2, stop defending the ovrei aveira so much, and start defending the Torah!! And my assumption is also that Skiaddict wore something clearly in violation of Halocha.
Aries, it does not matter what you feel or think, Halocha is Halocha. Learn the “Chofets Chaim”. Do not create issurim where there are none, and stop defending the ovrei aviera.
Skiaddict, dress tsniusdic and you won’t be spoken about.
I do second R. Kaufman, except for his statement about red. Red is also pritsusdic, a color of Yetser Ha’ra( the Sotan). There are mekoros for this. Skiaddict, you are girl. As a man, I’m telling you it’s pritsusdic.
SAM2, when talking behind her back with both of them seeing the offence, there are no rules of toeles, and they are allowed to be frank. Repeating it to Skiaddict is a different shaila.
Health, prust is not a halochic term. For chukos ha’goyim issur, it has to be pritsusdic. Red clothing causes reactions in men. If something is done by the non-Jews as a rule for no reason or for avoda zora reason, it is also chukos ha’goyim. Not everything someone does not like or not used to is chukos ha’goyim.
Aries, if OP was sitting there dressed in not-tsniusdic fashion, and everybody was able to see it, then it was mutar for the two ladies to discuss it.
SAM2, lav with malkus — to be posul de’Oraisa; de’rabbonon — even for other things. My point was to bring out that to do an aveira even once is a serious matter. Get It?
Yitay, not judging at all is from the new testament!! By the, Yidden, we judge. The halochos are in the “Chofets Chaim”. The halochos of tocheicha are also there.
SaysMe, I do not do aveiros be’meizid.
OneOfMany, at the very least, Skiaddict should not be mad at that woman. Plus, I do not think everybody is so bad that all tocheicha should be abolished.
Skiaddict, I am not trying to act holy — just trying to impress the chiyuv to follow Halocha. The lax attitude is a big problem.
Btw, someone who did an aviera(even one) be’mezid (knowingly) is posul to be a witness until his does teshuva. Just to show you how serious it is.
SaysMe, one is fully expected by HKB”H to refrain from aveiros 100% of the time.
Sam2, you are right — one time is not a heter.
MiddlePath, do not tell us stories about the levels which we can not understand. The bottom line is that they would kill and flog people for doing aveiros. Beis din can place curses on people even nowdays, or even flog them under certain circumstances.
SaysMe and Skiaddict, exactly. If you understood that being untzniusdic in front of men is an aveira just as eating treif is, you would have pushed yourself much harder and would not have done it.
OK, it is true that if one rebukes someone for the first time or first couple of times(maybe) he has to be careful not to insult the person. If s(he) does not listen, it is halachically mutar to get sharp-tongued at later points in time. The issur of insulting or halbonas panim does not apply to a mumar (even le’teavon). The lady was allowed to use sharp tems while talking to the second lady. The second lady was not allowed to repeat the sharp words to Skiaddict. So, yes, Yichusdic, one has to know the Halochos about these things and oppose the violations in the proper way.
MiddlePath, how about executing or flogging ba’alei aveira? In other words, you have to know what “darkeya darkei noam” means.
PBA, stop skiing, please, and explain where there was a breach of shmiras ha’loshon here.
Cinderella, we are not talking about peronal opininos — we are talking about Halocha. Not being judgemental is a Christian ideal.
Cinderella, and you, as a woman, have no idea how big of a yetzer hora men have for all kinds of untznius or worse. Yet, the earliche men control themselves.
SAm2, the case here is that both ladies could see that the OP was not dressed proprely.
Skiaddict, rock-throwing on Shabbos is disapproved of because under the circumstances that is not the way to deal with the problem (you are not going to fix the frei majority this way). However, it is not something which is absolutely out of the wack — it is just not good under the circumstances. Besides, some hold that those chiloni people are tinokos she’nishbu. Plus, I have a shaila about the permissibility of the rock-throwing vis-a-vis Hilchos Shabbos.
PBA and Sam2, where is the mekor that if two people walk into a place and see someone eating treif (or wearing a mini-skirt), that it’s loshon hora to exchage a comment about it between themselves?
Skiaddict, “Ma tovu!” does not apply to overlooking aveiros and pretending everything is fine.
Sam2, I did learn them. Not to judge — it is from the new testament! By Yidden, we judge. The rules are in the “Chofets Chaim”.
If we had real batei dinim, a bunch of ladies would have gotten wiped. The rest would get the message.
Sam2, drei nit ken kup, if both of the women saw an obvious violation of Halocha, it is not loshon hora to make a comment about it between themselves.
I agree with Health! In this crazy ikvesa de’Meshicha society it is not the ba’alei aveira who are castigated but those who try opposing them. If there was a real breach of hilchos Tznius (not just a chumra), that woman was right to express her outrage! I have yatzer hora also( I am not going to go into grafic details), but I control myself.
Oneofmany, the common denominator is self-control.
Skiaddict, and I do care about you.
Sam2, the Gemora is clear that being used to it helps only partially.
Aries, you are wrong. Look in “Chofets Chaim”.
Skiaddict, I am sorry, but I’ll be frank. “Mind your own business” is not a Jewish attitude. Not judging is a Christian thing. Trying is just not good enough – you have to be dressed properly.
Imagine, someone is a murder or a rapist. He tries to control it, but he is not perfect. So, sometimes, he kills or attacks women. You would not judge him either?
The 7 nations. Yerushalmi and Medrash says that Yehoshua sent 3 messages to the Kenanim. The first one — whoever wants to do teshuva and keep the 7 mitsvos should do so, and the Jews won’t harm them. The second one — whoever does not want to do teshuva is given a grace period to leave Eretz Yisroel. The third one — the remaining reshoim (steeped in immorality and avoda zora) are about to be attacked.
Yitay, drey nit ken kup — the Gemora in Kesuvos does say that drinking by women leads to problems.
GAW, that paragraph in Shulchan Aruch is a chumra which can not be imposed against a spouse’s will. And don’t even start — it is a chumra, not a chiyuv.
There is no issur to invite bochurim to a seuda where there are girls. It is a chumra. If someone knows that in his place it leads to problems, one may try to avoid this situation or be advised to do so by his Rov.
Health, look in Yore Deah 159 at the end that it ossur to lend money on interest to a tinok she’nishba, which is not the case with a mumar.
Zeeskite, yasher koach!
Health, it is a poshute zach. If someone is frum, but does not know certain hilchos Shabbos, he is mechalel Shabbos be’shogeg. Is he be’chlal “achicha”? Obviously, yes. The same is with a real tinok she’nishba.
Ask any Rov about it, if you do not want to rely on what I said.
Health, not to send you too far for sources — Rav Berkovitz from Yerushalaim in his English sefer on loshon horah.
The reason for this psak is simple. A tinok she’nishba is doing aveiros be’shogeg. Doing aveiros be’shogeg does not take one out of the status of “achicha”.
If a frei Yid is a tinok she’nishba, you can not say loshon hora about him. If he is not, you may.
Mik5, the 1-st paragragh, you got it wrong. No time now to elaborate.
About wanting to do a mitsva, but being unable. That does not include “can’t” because of yetzer horah.
” Do not judge” is not a Jewish principle be’etzem. The halochos of judging are found in sefer “Chofets Chaim”.
Mik5, “do not judge” is a Christian principle. In Judaism, we do judge. According to certain rules, though. ” No one is perfect” is no excuse. If the Torah demands something, every Jew is expected to fulfill it. If he does not, it is an aveira. With all that that word implies.
Btw, I am a BT.
Sam2, I would not say no one. I know of cases, where the BT kept whatever he knew at the time. He added to his observance as he learnt more.
Mik5, there is no such thing as ” what they can do at their level”. If someone understands that Torah is emes, he be’etzem must keep everything. Just, if someone is not such a tzadik, Rabbonim might decide not to push him for fear he might go the other way.
M in Israel, or the treatment of frum people who do not keep all of the chumros they(the E.Yisroel people) like.
M in Israel, plus, you live in Ramat BSh, not in Bnei Brak.
M in Israel, exactly — a lot of Gemachim to increase one’s own zechusim. When it comes to treatment of Geirim, Ba’alei Teshuva or FFBs from a different background (Sefardim -Ashkenazim), they show their true colors.
I agree that it is terrible. Unfortunately, that is the situation there, in Eretz Yisroel. Namely, they go very far when it comes to “bein adam le’Makom”, but are not so concerned about “bein adam le’chaveiro”. Oy and vey!
Depends if he does aveiros be’mezid. Also, it depends if his relatives were big tzadikim.