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Joe(Daniella), stop with you Naturei Karta nonsense and indeed leave and stop making Chillul Hashem with your behavior, with your twisted arguments. The problem is that when it comes to money the non-NK Chareidim come and start saying that they are entitled to them as they are good Israeli citizens. When it comes to the draft, they start yelling “evil Zionists”. You’d claim that Paris is the capital of Japan if that what it takes to “prove” that the Chareidim are right.So how’s the weather in Teheran?
In fact, I am not arguing with your anymore just as is the case with PBA, Toi and some others. Enough of the “Brazil is in Antarctica” type of arguments!
Joe or Daniela, when there were 400 quiet bnei Torah in Israel nobody made a tumult about them.
Daas Yochid, hi there! I did not mean that all Israeli Chareidim and their sympathizers are like that, just as not every Pole is an anti-Semite!
Joe or Daniela, I do have a problem with those things, but what shaychos to the topic at hand. As far as the etzem money go, paying(Rachmona li’tzlan) for those “projects” costs nowhere close to sponsoring the Chareidim.
The Israeli Army also has pturim or leniences for married people, new olim, etc. I was not talking about that. Do not twist and try to wiggle out! Just coming to a US conscription site and saying that you do not hold of the Vietnam war would not help in you in 1969. So stop whining about the conscientous objectors.
Moving out of the Medinah and doing what? Coming to the US and demanding from the US kollel forever, no working etc.?
Daniela, by hook or by crook the Chareidim should be potur. Right? Who cares about the Chillul HaShem?
Joe or really Daniella? Yes,distorted fantasies. Conscientous objectors is a very strictly defined category. It is people who religiously believe that any war under any circumstanses is totally prohibited. The US did not poter people who objected to the Vietnam war from the military duty as conscientous objectors. The Israeli Chareidim’s ta’anah is that it is bittul Torah to go the Army (they said those who do not learn should go) while the only reason they can learn is because the frei pay part of their bills.
PBA, you get a grip. You think anybody in their right mind would go to the Congress and say:” We,a minority such and such, just do not want to serve, you, the majority, go to the Army…”. Forget about the Chillul HaShem, forget about starting up with the Goyim…
If you really think that, I have nothing to tell you anymore. Have a good live.
PBA, you have to view the whole situation — how it looks, not only the Chareidi negiyos.
Right,PBA, they would go to the Congress and say:” Let the Goyim serve, we do not want to…”. Right,PBA?
Daniela, did the Jews openly come out and tell the government and the general populace to go jump in the lake and then just went to be executed? Joe, stop with your distorted fantasies!
My point,PBA, was that they did not and would not dare do it in the same fashion that the Israeli Chareidim do it. To understand that is the first step for you and the like-minded fellows on the way to a reasonable and resposible position on the issue.
PBA, do you really think it is a real shas ha’shmad which requires yehareg ve’lo’yaavor? Are you for real?
PBA, I am sorry – you do not know history. In the really olden days they would not draft the despised Jews. Later, when they started, they would not take “no” for an answer. In times of war, they would execute draftdodgers. Chazon Ish made a neder to write a sefer as he was trying to escape from the Russian soldiers combimg Minsk(Russia) for draftees. If the Jews in Russia would try to openly defy the draft they would get firing squads and pogroms in response.
Learn some history and common sense instead of the Chareidi distorted fantasies.
And, yes, I agree that under the given circumstances al pi Halocha they have a ptur of osek ba’Torah. They, however, would not be able to learn without the Medinah’s money.
PBA, forget about the moral duty. Do you think the British, American, Swiss or Russian Jews would openly defy the draft in their respective countries like that? Israel is not different.
Charliehall. I agree — it is overboard. But it is very Chareidi here — they do not know how to spell “yashrus”.
Btw, just for the PBA, a different country would not take “no” for an answer if they were drafting people. I am referring to the hypothetical Arab or British rulers.
Velts Meshugener, indeed, one is not allowed to talk during davening. You may not bend the Torah to suit your desires.
I also want to most strongly object to calling the Kiyum Ha’Torah with a demeaning name, Rachmonah litzlan. Oy le’eynaim she’kach ro’os!
Naftush, I did not mean the way they apply force in the USA. And, by Stalin it most cetainly worked. He molded the country the way he saw fit.
Benignuman, modern liberal propaganda. If enough force is applied, it will work. Plenty examples from world history of governments enforcing things.
The difference is that if there are a lot of ovrei aveirah but the Frum have enough power to force them to keep mitzvos then this is what we do. On the other hand, if the Torah did not mandate it, then we do not do it.
Daniela, you should be ashamed to mention the taxes — the Chareidim get much more from the Medinah than they pay in taxes!
Benignuman, now you said it! But the right name for it is “Ein be’yadeinu le’haamid Mishpatei ha’Das al tila” and not that “the Torah does not mandate enforcement…”. Btw, what you wrote about murder is not correct, but I am not going to go into it.
Right, Daas Yochid, and “ad she’teize nafsho” at that.
Benignuman, the stam assumption of the Gemora and Shulchan Aruch is that the Yidden keep the Torah. If people become prutzim be’aveiros and the regular punishments do not reign them in, the Beis Din is allowed to punish shlo al pi regular din to restore observance. That is the whole purpose of a horo’as sha’ah. Except for that Gemora with the Sanhedrin moving out — which one can misunderstand, the whole mashmoos of Tanach and Gemora is that we force the people to behave themselves, namely, to keep the mitzvos.
Benignuman, it is clear that they are allowed to proceed with harsh measures untill observance is restored. Your chiluk has no source, except for the insanity of the contemporary liberals.
Benignuman, I do not have time now to look for the exact ma’are mekomos. I wiil just tell you to look in Choshen Mishpat,siman 2. It says there that even a Beis Din without semichah may execute people who are not chayav misah if the public is porutz be’avierah(or aveiros), if nessecary.
Beniguman, you are wrong!! Megilas Ta’anis describes forceful imposition of Torah Law on the misyavnim. Tzidikiyahu was chayav misah be’dinei Shamaim for not doing likewise. And so on and so forth. The Gemorah with the Sanhedrin moving out of the Lishkas Ha’gozis has a different pshat from what you suggest. And acoording to you, people, certainly, should not be drafted against their will!
I am not a follower of Rav Menashe Klein ztz”l. However, I protest the changing of the name of his seifer — it is a bizayon Talmud Chocham.
Knees, above elbows and neckline are a must.
Benignuman, we do not go with a bad minhag of even frum women. The minhag does not override the minimum tznius standards (covering knees etc.).
Charles Snort, !!!!???!?!??!?!!!!!!!!!??…
Da’as Yochid, because if the claim is not true (and I suspect it is not true), it would be propagated to force the compliance with this extreme chumrah.
GAW, I think that R’Dovid really thinks so. Eventhough I do not agree with many of his shittos, I think it is unfounded to accuse him of insincerity.
The chatzizah reason is a shailah de’rabbonon (in this case). It is shvere to make a woman look disgusting in the eyes of her husband because of it. Especially, in the olden days when they did not have nice sheitels.
Da’as Yochid, I find it outrageous that you do not seem to see any validity to any of the non-Chareidim’s ta’anos whatsoever.
I rarely agree with Confucious, but here he is right on the money. Again, I do not justify the Arab behaviour, but it is a product of the state restoration.
Yichusdic, the Arabs got definetely much more violent once they had learnt of the Jewish state project. Be modeh al ha’emesl! It is a simple historical fact. Yes, yes, I know it says all kinds if things in their literature. They were not that busy being mekayem them though before 1918 when they hopped that the Jews wanted to restore their state in Eretz Yisroel. That’s when the fury was unleashed.
Bear, WRONG! The British were supposed to eventually create an independent Jewish state there.
Anyhow, what’s the weather in Teheran?
Yael.e, which points of Health’s do you agree with? If the Chareidim till now were able to play games and push laws through that let them take the money despite the widespread resentment, it does not mean it is not Chillul HaShem. If you and Health(!!!) learn about Chillul HaShem, you”ll see that if a Yid, a Talmud Chocham does something which is not assur but might look bad, it is bona-fide Chillul Shem Shomaim!
GAW, it is bizui Talmidei Chachomim to put forth such conjectures. It is one thing to have kashos on the p’sak, but what you did is different.
Y Me, I am not saying the Moslems are right, but it is a fact that the Arabs became much more violent towards the Jews after the advent of Zionism. Todeh al ha’emes!
Yael.e, I actually place very high value on Talmud Torah. My only concern is that if the frei indeed support the Chareidi learning to a significant degree, it is Chillul HaShem to insist on staying in learning on their money against their will.
About the sinah of am aratzim. There is indeed such a thing as the Gemorah tells us. I,unfortunately, have seen it in real life. Your remark is off, however, when it comes to the posters here. Some of them might place not enough value on Talmud Torah, but it is not more than that. One can’t go and start up with the Goyim, and when they react, start yelling:”Eisav sone le’Ya’akov…”. In a similar vein, a learning person, a Talmud Chochom can’t act inappropriatly and than start yelling “sinas am’aratzim”.
Btw, while on the subject of sinah, what about the way the E.Y. Chareidim treat other Yidden — Sefardim, Ba’alei Teshuvah, Geirim? I guess it is a topic for a different thread.
Akuperma, drei nit ken kup, most Chareidim can not cover their own bills without outside help.
GAW, I do not think you are allowed to write Gedolim with “” — -pashtus, bizayon Talmidei Chachomim.
Yael.e, you have to count everything. That includes tax credits, havtachat hahnasah, child allowances. And that’s to a lot of people who financialy do not contribute to the budget.
I personally know that the zechus of Talmud Torah is a very great one. Just you have to consider how it looks to the outsiders.
EY Mom, because many pay less, others have to pick up the slack.
Plus, what about people getting havtachat hachnasah?
Since when did mastery of davka a portion of Y.D. as opposed to anything else make one a Rabbi?
Billybob,the last thing you wrote is Christian. It is from their book.
EY Mom, my impression has always been that: 1)men in E.Y. stay in kollel forever; maybe, a few become Rebbeim or mashgichim once they are middle-aged; 2)women either do not work or work a little; 3) the medinah gives them not-a-lot of money and they live on it.
Miriam, support of Talmud Torah is a huge mitsvah. Plu, there is a difference between learning a little after work an learning the whole day. Plus, one can not become a Talmid Chocham, a Rov without many years of full-time learning.