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Kanoi, get over it. It is not an inborn, unalienable right of every Israeli Chareidi to learn forever on the money squeezed out of unwilling and resentful public and never be bothered with any requests!
Health!!!!!>VCBDFBF:SBSLEMNLHKBLGKNN<FGLGBFL:AWDF:QWFDVDSDVLSDSDVVVVVVVLSDVSDVSDVSVDSSDVSSD
GAW, it is an American saying. According to you, why does the Torah mandate batei dinim and punishments? Btw, I do not always agree with the machos the Israeli Chareidim do and how they do it.
Kanoi, he promised forever and no matter the numbers? Plus, he was the most evil ever, so why rely on or invoke his promises?
“Jewish identity” — you seriously thought they meant “Shulchan Aruch” to the dot?
Daniela, but they would not recognize desire to learn the Torah as “consciencous objection”.Especially if it involved 8% of the population. But, enough of this going in circles. I am not going to talk to you or Joe any further — enough has been said.Especially, as you would claim that Paris is a capital of Japan just to say that the Israelis are evil and the Chareidim are right from every vantage point.
Joe, and Paris is the capital of Japan!
JOE, I know I should not have started talking to you.
Let the Chareidim try going to Austria, Russia or Greece (these have universal draft) and try saying that as a community they must be patured from the draft because they learn. Aha.
What I am saying is that the Briskers and the Satmars look principled and do not make a Chillul HaShem.
Why do they want to draft them? they want to draft everyone as any country would.
Daniela, they do not refer to the US as an illegit. joke-of-a-medina and so on and so forth.And Israel is not a part of the USA at that while Chareidim are Israeli citizens. And Bennett just critisized the Presiden’s policies.
Ah talmid, it is paltry in terms of the US and even Israeli budget and it goes to pay for the Israeli army. It is a pay-off for the withdrawal from Sinai. Some Israeli politicians even called for refusing to take it in order not to owe the US favors for the gelt.
Israel gets from the US paltry 3 billion a year in military aid and the Americans don’t mind. The Israelis do not go to Washington to shnorr and then refuse doing favors and mevaze the donors. See the difference?
Ah talmid, the Arabs won’t pay the Chareidim bills to stay in kollel — so there is no point in all these fantasies of alliance with the Arabs to avoid conscription.
GAW, there is a chiyuv to force others to follow the mitzvos(not chumros) if possible even though it might not be up your American alley.
Kanoi, I am not doing that. I’m just saying they can’t be so upset about it. There is such a thing as “middah keneged middah”.
Kanoi, if you decided to follow the ways of daniela, Toi and some others, we can just stop the discussion.
ROB, if it is absolutely obvious that no kabolas ha’mitzvos was intended, the geirus never took place.
SJ, we have to be careful not to insult Talmidei Chachomim.
Kanoi,you say that you actually don’t know the teretz — you just rely on the Gedolim who hold like that. What I can tell you is that there are ma’ases in divrei Chazal where people got punished for listening to Gedolim when it was wrong. Start with the wife of Rabi Chaninah ben Tradion(Avodah Zorah, around 17B-18A).
Kanoi, what goes around comes around! NK, Satmar and Brisk make not-true accusations against the Zionists, so they get it back.
RABBAIM, one does not make machos about a midas chassidus. Anyhow, I have to double-check “Orchos Tzadikim” to see if he really says what you claim he says.
Some Rabbis do not like anything new or unusual — something they are not used to. Derech klal “the heimish” cuisine comes from Eastern and Central Europe!
GAW, if few people work normal-paying jobs, who’s going to pay for the tamchui?
Charliehall, stop with this outrageous Modernishe practice of pulling out shvere das yechids abd building whole binyanim based on it!
GAW, where does the Torah say it? Anyhow, it is pretty much apikorsus what they are saying. HaShem knew of democracy! It is mefurash in Gemorah and the Rambam that it is a mitsvah to appoint a king. And the Moshiach is going to be a desendant of Dovid ha’melech. And, yes, chazir is ossur.
ZD and Mobe, The Torah is timeless and was given from All-Knowing HaShem. What you wrote is completely beyond the pale!
Mobe613, it is openly stated in many places that a real Jewish state must be a Torah-based monarchy.
DY, is one allowed to est treif to salvage kedushah? Besides, learning full-time, while definetly a huge mitsvah, is not called “salvaging kedushah”.
Ari-free, we have a chiyuv to avoid Chillul HaShem and hisgarus be’Umos. Period.
About Time, one wrong does not justify a different one.
Ifti, we pasken that anybody who says that is an apikores. We are not going to start a discussion here if chazir is ossur.
Kanoi, if we were talking about a country which gives out these financial benefits and the general population does not mind people taking them to stay in kollel, I would agree with you. If the general public objects and has ta’anos, then it’s Chillul HaShem and hisgarus be’Umos.
D.Y., they do contribute, but you can’t force somebody else to support you in kollel.
So, D.Y., if a baal ha’bais supports a yungerman in learning and then says that he can’t or won’t do it anymore, the yungerman should go and besiege the baal ha’baises house till he agrees to lay out the cash?
Da’as Yochid, to claim bittul Torah when the reason they are able to learn is because the frei are forced to pay for the Chareidi learning is outrageous and Chillul HaShem! Nowhere do Chazal tell us to go and force people to support us in kollel against their will. It is you who has gone off the deep end because of your frume negioyos.
Da’as Yochid, whom you want to convince with that ma’amar Chazal? The frei? The MO who do not want to support all those people in learning anymore? What about the Chillul HaShem?
Kanoi Next Door, let’s get it straight. Egypt and Greece do have a conscription. UK had it till 1960.Us — till 1973.
If you don’t hold of the Medinah do not take money from them. You can’t have it both ways.
Why work!?!?!? Because insisting on staying in learning while living off the money of those who do not want anymore to support you is CHILLUL HASHEM!!!
do not type your posts all in bold
If the winning party got a majority of seats in the Knesset — no need for a coalition. Would you want the biggest winner who got only,let’s say, 29 seats to form a government and do as they please?
Frumguy, it got better after plummeting a couple of years ago.
PBA, I hope you did not make Chilul HaShem by being overly demanding etc.
rebdoniel, if Chazal say something, it is true and this is what we go by — eventhough you might be ignorant of it. Chazal do tell us that limud HaTorah is a tremendous zechus that has the power to protect. You do not know what you are talking about.
Plus, we don’t pasken like that Rambaml. Look in the commentaries on S.A., Hilchos Talmud Torah.
Kanoi, I am not saying the Zionists are right generally speaking, but what they would tell you that you have to look at the whole picture, namely — that the Jews now do not have to live in Europe where they faced constant persecution, where only during the Russian Civil war(1917-1920) between 50,000 and 200,000 Jews were kilied plus Bnos Yisroel assaulted on a massive scale, Yidden wounded etc. and etc….
But the Frum must worry about the impression they make!
Daniela, I am not moichel on your manipulative abuse. Remember,there is din and Dayan.
PBA, chas ve’sholom — never claimed that. I do not ,however, subscribe to the grotesque view that the medinah is some type of a super-evil, worst-ever, but, at the same time, toy monster(that you can just fief on and not treat it with the same seriousness you’d treat the French or Polish governments).
Kanoi, are you for real? The unemployment programs are meant for people who are trying to support their families by working but have fallen on hard times — can’t find a job. If a large community of people were to use that program for their benefit, meaning — the husband just stays in learning and they use the benefits to supplement their income, such a practice would for sure create ta’anos from the general population. That would be especially true if the people doing it were Jews and the general population — British bnei Eisav. There for sure would be Chillul HaShem and eivah. Anything unclear?
Joe, you could prefer all you want. The next ruler after the State of Israel is going to be Melech HaMoshiah.
Health, I do not think that the secular Ataturk’s Turkish Republick would not include the Jews in the general draft.
Health, Turkey has a mandatory draft. They also fight the Kurds. Turkey is a member of NATO. The Americans wanted it there as an ally against the USSR. If somebody told them to go jump in the lake with their draft, the response would have been brutal.
Btw, Egypt, Syria and Turkey all draft people. The UK had done till 1960.
The Kanoi, that’s ridiculous. The British or the Arabs would have found whom to maintain an army against. Besides, the Arabs would not have sponsored all those Yeshivos the way Israel does. You can’t take and demand money from the Medinah, but when it comes to the citizens’ duties start yelling “evil Medinah”. Plus, I am not even talking about the moral duty. I am talking about not making Chillul HaShem!